http://www.davelectronics.com/bg8.htm
http://www.arx.com.au/8pre.htm

The DAV is a very high quality amp and represents very good value for money.

Thanks!

Have you a rough idea of the prices? I expect the DAV to be pricy...

Ex

I was about to recomend the BG8 when I saw that David had beat me to it! (Got 12 channels worth of BG pres, no #8 tho..)

in my small corner of the world it's got a recomended importers price of $3300 - what you pay on the street may be something quite diffrent!

Dunno what the price struture may be in the US!

/ptr

Are you thinking the Audient as the other one you couldn't remember?

The Trues (while not my personal favorite) are probably the best out of the lot for a universal sounding preamp.

The DAVs are wonderful as well, but if I had to choose just one out of the bunch, the True is a bit more transparent whereas the DAV is perhaps a tad euphoric and smoothing on many sources.

The Mackie is a great inexpensive choice. It's transparent but not near as open sounding as the Trues or the DAVs. They work well for hot/bright condensers (KM184s and CMC6 MK2h and MK2s). I wouldn't use the Mackies for ribbons as their last 10 dB of gain gets a tad noisey.

Cheers!

J.

Thanks for all the info!

The Audient is not the brand I had forgotten- the one I am trying to remember is from Germany and is a bit pricey..

The Mackie interests me in part because it will allow me to try higher sample rates on smaller 8 channel projects. Also- if the clock interacts well with my system, it will also allow me expand my highest track count projects from my current limit of 24 trks to 32.

I am assuming that the more expensive units likely have better components and may sound better (they had better!!).

Also on my xmas list: Benchmark DAC1, and possibly a pair of 4011 DPA mics-- but only if I buy the less expensive preamps.... decisions, decisions...

Exsultavit

http://www.jlmaudio.com/TMP8.htm ?

Markd102 wrote: http://www.jlmaudio… ?

Is 600 Ohm input impedance OK? Seems a bit low, especially for ribbons.

Exsultavit wrote: I am giving myself a Christmas gift rather than sending the $$ to Uncle Sam in April.

Want to dispense of some $$$? Buy a plane ticket to a remote place, enjoy it while it still exists, get some real 'air' and broaden your personal bandwidth.

But if you must spend your money on yet another inanimate lump of metal, plastic and silicone that allows you to do more of the same thing you already do, then perhaps wait a couple of months for the forthcoming Musik Messe and NAMM shows. New products are often released at those times.

Yours unhelpfully,

- Simmosonic

DavidSpearritt wrote: [quote=Markd102]http://www.jlmaudio… ?

Is 600 Ohm input impedance OK? Seems a bit low, especially for ribbons.
Hmm, I'm not convinced about the specs on this unit. Not many pieces of gear currently available are designed solely for the 600 Ohm market. It could be that the 600 Ohm input impedance is either switchable or pertains to the line ins only, but not having used a TMP-8, I stand open to correction. As an additional comment, 60dB max gain is not really enough for ribbon mics.

Boswell wrote: As an additional comment, 60dB max gain is not really enough for ribbon mics.

I haven't really found this to be the case.

On full symphony or full chorus, I've gotten away (in most cases) with around 50dB of gain (even with chamber orchestra maybe 55dB)

On drums, anywhere between 25 and 40 dB

On chamber chorus (just did a 12 person a capella) 60 dB was just adequate.

On string quartet, 60dB worked fine

Jazz ensembles...45-50 depending upon the type of jazz and the use of the mic.

I suppose if the sourse were mighty quiet, I could see needing more gain, but I haven't encountered that yet. However, if recording at 24 bit, there's enough headroom to get you another 10 dB of gain if absolutely needed.

I myself am not pleased with any 'soft limit' function that is always in place. I saw no way to defeat it.

The tax opportunity is over for '07, but I am still shopping. At this point, I am looking hard at the Mackie Onyx 800, and not only because it is less money. Several engineers have done a shoot-out between this and other, more expensive pres and found that the Onyx pres are sufficiently high quality to use alongside the more expensive units. I also like the chance to use the a/d and clock in it, which could lighten my load onsite if they are up to snuff. If all these are up to standard when I get the box, I'll use it and take that trip to a distant place for vacation with the $$$ I saved!

Or, return the Mackie and get something better.

I'll let you know when I've had a chance to put the Mack through it's paces.

Exsultavit

Exsultavit wrote: I myself am not pleased with any 'soft limit' function that is always in place. I saw no way to defeat it.

Soft limit functions are only useful if a) they don't offer significant degradation; b) you know where the threshold is so you can keep your peaks just below it, making the limiter save your skin when it really needs saving; c) you can bypass them!

Exsultavit wrote: At this point, I am looking hard at the Mackie Onyx 800, and not only because it is less money. Several engineers have done a shoot-out between this and other SNIP!!

Shoot out, schmoot out! Do your own, or you'll never know. I've seen too many shootouts where the cheaper alternative gets cut a lot more slack than the expensive alternative. That's human nature, of course. And I don't care who the engineers are, we are all subject to that kind of behaviour.

Having said that, I'd only have reservations about using the Onyx if it was going to be my main preamp/AD system for stereo miking. In that situation, the tonal character of the preamps and ADs becomes significant. But in augmenting a multimiking situation (as you seem to be suggesting), where you're using different brands of preamps and ADs, the contribution of each individual preamp and/or AD converter becomes less significant. The sound of the microphones themselves will be dominant...

I'd hate to spend a bucket load of $$$ on some additional high end preamps and/or converters, and then find that I only use them once in a blue moon. Get the Mackie and buy a plane ticket somewhere with the change...

I agree with Simmo-
I've used the Mackie 800R as auxilliary preamps on numerous rigs and never questioned the decision.

As for mains- only on "lesser" projects.

If it's in that back-seat role, I don't think you'll ever regret your decision.

J>

Just to be different, I wouldn't want to make a decision like this based on the first critea that you suggested, that it has to be a 1 rackspace unit. I would get the unit I wanted, and then if it turned out to be a 2 rack unit, figure out how jury rig the logistics.

While I appreciate your suggestion, Taxman, I am on a quest to make my 'standard' live rig smaller, or at least keep from ballooning it further. At the same time, I will not easily give up the functionality I have gotten used to having on site.

The preamp setup I am questing for will not be for mains. I usually dedicate Millennias to the first main pair and the first 'other' pair- typically choir. And: if the power supply to my DPA 4003 pair is set to +20, their output level is about the same as my Klaused Neumann M269s at +32 db or so, so I often avoid using a preamp at all for the 4003 pair. That takes care of the first 6 tracks.

After that, I go to more preamps-- in this case, maybe the Onyx's.

I await delivery!

Ex

Finally got and tested the Mackie Onyx 800R. I will probably be returning the unit only because the pots are so touchy!

The actual gain markings on the unit are as much as 10db off (when compared to my Millennia Media pres), and I find them to be just about impossible to re-set to the same place twice. Almost all of their useful gain area (say, +30db to +50db) is concentrated between 3:00 and 4:30 or so. You can try to move the pot the smallest amount within that area and it will jump quite a ways. Arrrrgh!

While I am happy with the converters and clocking features, this pot thing is a deal-killer for me. Never even got to check out the sound, as my predeliction for setting up stereo pairs will be constantly frustrated by the resolution of the pots....

Now, I'll have to check out the other fine products mentioned in this thread....

If you want resettability of gain controls in a pre-amp, the DAV BG8 is the one for you!

What's the cost? I emailed them for this, but no response yet.

Ex

Exsultavit wrote: The actual gain markings on the unit are as much as 10db off (when compared to my Millennia Media pres), and I find them to be just about impossible to re-set to the same place twice. Almost all of their useful gain area (say, +30db to +50db) is concentrated between 3:00 and 4:30 or so. You can try to move the pot the smallest amount within that area and it will jump quite a ways. Arrrrgh!

That was always my problem with the Onyx 800R as well. Though with some test tones feeding it, I never had a problem getting a good stereo level.

The gain past the 50-55dB point got too noisy as well. However, as you state, the conversion is really quite nice.

I wonder if they went to (or one were to substitute) a linear taper instead of a log taper pot inside of the unit if it would make a noticable difference. Even using some relatively inexpensive ones should probably make the gain more usable.

I totally agree about the taper of the pots. The same problem occurs with all the earlier Mackie pres, but I had hoped they would have fixed that for their flagship, dedicated Onyx preamp setup. But no...

I know of one major symphoiny orchestra that uses this unit for conversion (clocked by a master clock). All of the tracks run through those pots, but they were set to one level and then covered with a protective lid so no one screws with them.

Anyway, what is the cost of the DAV 8 ch unit? Thet still have not answered my email....

Ex

Exsultavit wrote: Anyway, what is the cost of the DAV 8 ch unit?

Sorry, I can't tell you what the US price is, but here in the UK the BG8 lists at £1350 ($2700) + tax. UK taxes are not payable on exports, but you have your own import duties, so my best guess would be that you should be able to get one over there for less than $3500.

You could try KMR Audio for a shipped price. http://www.kmraudio.com

When I bought my most recent BG8 early last summer I paid about $2300. I can also tell you the Onyx is not in the same league in any way. I bought one and sold it after a week of sensing that my ears felt sandpapered.

You cannot go wrong with the DAV stuff-- well built, sounds superb, reasonably priced, and if you must sell it you will get a very good price. This cannot be said of the "budget" gear.

Rich

Thanks for the pricing for the DAV8. The DAV folks are not answering my email enquirues for price. At all.

I am also looking at this unit: the RME Octamic II.

http://www.rme-audio.de/images/press_downloads/octamic2.jpg

I can find nowherre to get this yet that has an English website. Has anyone used this one? I hear it is very popular in Europe for classical.

Exsultavit

I figure this would be the right place to ask this.
What if I were to buy a firestudio (or what every the hell presonus is calling it now), in combination with a pair of graces, and perhaps a few other preamps.
Basically use the 101's on the stereo pair, perhaps a summit audio on the solo instrument. Leaving the rest of what I am micing to the FS. Then when I get more money, buy a few more preamps.
It may cost more in the long run, but its frees up my financial situation a little, plus gives me the opportunity to experiment with different preamps.

Then again for the cost of two 101's and a FS I am getting rather close to the cost of the true systems.

I would just like to get a little insight into this game plan. If any of you are willing to share.

Sonarerec wrote: I bought one and sold it after a week of sensing that my ears felt sandpapered.

:roll:

A lot of stores nowadays have *return policies* that go out as far as even 30 days.

TheFraz -
One thing to be very cautious of is incremental upgrades. That's to say spending a decent chunk of change on a product or products which are only marginally better than what you have currently.

If you're going to spend money, save up and spend it.

That being said, for the kind of money you're talking about, you might want to consider purchasing an RME FireFace 800. The conversion on it is top notch and the flexibility would be a benefit when you decide to add preamps later.

In the mean time, the preamps that are built in aren't bad. They're not fantastic, but they're not bad either. I wouldn't hesitate to use them on even serious sources. I've used them with ribbons over long cable runs and had no problem whereas even with the Onyx I couldn't get enough gain before a large onset of noise for ribbons.

Exsultavit -
The pres in the Fireface are said to be the same pres as in the Octamic. They're good. Again, they're not excellent, but they're good. I'll try to post some samples here comparing them to either my Graces or Millennias in the near future. It may not be a great sample, but maybe some drums or an acoustic guitar or something.

Wow, that looks like a exactly what I need. I like that I am only paying for 4 pre's with it, since that gives me all I need to get started with. plus it allows me to use my other pres (when I get the chance to buy them).

Feel free to send any more advice my why about getting into this trade. So far every thing you have told me has been really helpful in pointing me in the right direction.
So than you.

Cucco

Thanks, in advance, for any samples comparing RME to Millennia (my current favorite pre).

Exsultavit

Please feel free to record some mojave's into the RME.
I would love to hear how that sounds.