For some, your current DAW and interface is just perfect so it depends on what you are expecting? Why do you need to upgrade? If you are doing demo's, and not VSTi, who cares, make music and don't get all caught up in improving because it is what it is. Its big bucks to get better, worth spending imho. Actually, I'd get a StudioLive 16.4.2 over what you have any day of the week. Superior is all regards.

If you are wanting pro perhaps, and have clients that expect better, that's a different game all together so, I would without hesitation say...

DUMP the digi 002. That = accumulative aliasing smear ... No matter what mic you get, it will always sound small and digital. But, your Avid formula is also subjective to all that goes with that turn key program so I'm the broken record saying, you can't fix what isn't meant to be fixed. Its a dated can of worms heading to the dump that no one wants anymore.

If it were me though, I'd buy a second hand StudioLive or a second hand RME. Mass is on the Orion32 bandwagon so it's a great opportunity to grab onto many options better than what you have now.

The big question is, what are you recording?
Are you doing a bit of both, VSTi, Midi and real music or all real? If you are all real, a simple 8 channel and avoiding little plug-in use is plenty to get a pro sound. If you are using a lot of plug-ins and mashing it all up with a bit of everything, you need better clocking and its a never ending battle of increasing DSP while hoping for less accumulative transient smear.

I dont have any clients Chris , but I do want to try and do the best i can with what we record at home.
Also hardly any midi , Only live , if the there is midi it would be just a splash over live stuff.
I see on ebay studio live 16 for 1200 , Do they have an 8 channel?

An audio interface or a ribbon mic ??? It's like saying, do I buy plates or forks... ;)

First, I'm not sure the 002 has enough power for a ribbon (unless it's an active ribbon)
Second, you may have the best instrument and perfect mics for the job, the preamps and converters of the 002 will always limit the quality.

One thing you could do is get a good preamp with a converter option(digital out) like the Focusrite ISA One. You could have ONE good preamp that will bypass the 002's by entering it in digital and get a ribbon later. ( ISA preamps have 80db of clean power so it's a good choice for ribbon mics).

But if you need multi-track quality, I'd change the 002 right away.
As Chris says, the studiolive consoles are a good, RME, Orion, or save up for a UA Apollo.
Or get a ZED-r16, it's a great foundation for a studio. Nice preamps and converters, plus control some feature of your DAW and also summing capacity..

There's tones of better units than the 002.(y)

Yes I think changing the interface will be the best option.
(y)

dvdhawk will confirm but comparing the 002 to this, I'm certain you will be thrilled.

There are two 16 channel studiolives
Get the 16.4.2
It's 16 channels io, not 8!
If you are doing mostly live tracking, this is better than the 002 for you. Dave, what do you think?
Its sample rate limits at 48k but you really are good enough with it.

Anything you get into at that price point won't be huge change for you, why I suggest this as it will be a much better step over investing in a better mic or converter still stuck with digi crud

If there is a local gc around, it would be good to try it for a week but it will sell if you don't like it

I'd pay no more than $1000 for the console
You'll get one for that! I sold a 24.4.2 for $1400

I know people don't want to hear this but the Apollo is not an upgrade because it's full of phase and sounds like glass

Those are going bye bye real fast
People are starting to get it and I personally think a new generation of audio is awakening.

Why do you feel a ribbon is what you need? I'm guessing because you hear harsh and are hoping a ribbon will be smoother?

It will be smoother but still in the path if digi which is no better. It will still have the smearing and metallic 6k we all hate.

Oh !! Good to know about the apollo.. Thanks ;)

Lots love it and would disagree so like all digital, it's subjective

I guess when you have one gear in your studio, you can't say it's bad even if you know it is. Specially not to your customers !! ;)
I'm learning to recognise what sound's good. Since I haven't tried everything, it's best to rely on good fellow like you, Chris !!

Thanks,

imho, I'm not trying to be a know it all, rather, just another voice okay to be wrong, questioned or disagreed with. Having the opportunity to mix for people and asking questions on what they use or do helps demystify. Having had quite a bit of gear over the years also helps. Combined, I hope what I share is not hurtful as I know we never like to hear bad things we invest in. Its human nature to support our purchases, I try an not do that here. We all learn from mistakes. There isn't a day I don't think I could have done something different.
If you notice, I'm on a new finding where there are two worlds of gear that can make big improvements to some, where its useless for others. If we are only tracking, we can get by on very minimal mixing gear and the front end is everything.
When we are combining vsti, midi, libraries and real, its a whole new world. Converters and that 2 track at a time is one that has been overlooked as pointed out when we are qualifying help and suggestions above here.

Back to the OP,
The SL is great but I'd love to have the Zed and so many other consoles above and beyond. Today, DAW's are so clean compared to yesteryear. It used to be the other way around back in my day. Gear made big differences. Bad tape sounds bad. Today, we can get by on a lot less once we get what is messing us up or screwing with the phase. imho, there are way too many options today. Those little things we think we need, accumulate and distract. The Apollo, has way too much of everything and not enough of the one main thing a converter should really be doing, which is, passing audio transparently back and forth true, nothing more. From what I've heard and read, it isn't pro level so why bother. Most DAW's have what it claims to have already, we just don't see it. Its another distraction for those thinking it will help tracking. I don't here it.

can I still use pro tools 11 , as I like my workflow on that DAW.

I do like the look of the studio live and the price is reachable for me but I wont have the money until the new year so
Ive started doing research now as I want to buy the right thing for me.
Also I like the idea of being able to take it gigging and having a few different scenes for styles of song we do.
The knobs sticking out at the top are a bit worrying.

If you are gigging, its perfect! Yes, you can still use it with Pro Tools. Watch all the videos posted, there are tons. I've posted a lot here as well so, check in our search. You will love this. I just bought the newer 24.4.2AI version, should be here in a few weeks.. I hated to sell my older SL a while back so hows that for a testimonial. Nothing comes close to this at that price. Great company too.

Maybe Dave has some leads for you and more advice. You have a few months before purchase stress kicks in, maybe something else will pop up that a member or two may suggest too. Good luck,

Cheers!

Those knobs are gains, no worries. Look for one with a hard shell case, bonus!

Do you have FW? (firewire)

Yes I have firewire . thanks for your input Chris , Ill check out more on Studio Live:)

I wouldn't completely rule out Presonus StudioOne as a potential DAW platform if you are going to get the StudioLive console. It's a perfect integration between the console and the DAW platform (and you'll end up getting the Artist Series version of the DAW program anyway, when you buy the console).

Other than that, you can stick with PT if you want, I understand the urge to stick with the familiar - although I've recently changed over to Samplitude and wouldn't ever look back at PT or Sonar unless I was forced to, due to a client's insistence...

The Digi you have is older technology, and was designed more to be somewhat as a proprietary interface for PT, than it was designed to be a good mic preamp.
Most of the engineers I knew who used one were using it in conjunction with consoles/added preamps, and used it strictly as an I/O, but very few of those people I knew who had one (myself included) still have them, because even when using console or standalone preamps, the Digi always seemed to downgrade the signal.
The Digi lacks gain, sounds pretty thin, and the converters aren't really considered up to today's specs. Will it work? Sure. But it has a very thin and weak sound in comparison to most of today's pres/I-O's. And speaking of lack of gain, even if you were to pick up a ribbon mic, I'm not sure it would even have enough gain to provide a ribbon mic what it requires - at least not without adding a Cloudlifter or something similar in the chain to boost the gain.

You'll be much happier with the pres and converters on the Presonus than you will with the Digi that you currently have. As mentioned by Marco, if you felt like you wanted to step up and have other/alternate coloring options available, you could also add a Focusrite ISA (or something similar) to the Presonus, but for your basic day to day recording, that requires robust, clean, transparent pres, the Studio Live would be a major step up from what you have now, short of getting into something really nice, which of course, will cost quite a bit more - and give you far less channels to work with.

The StudioLive consoles, at least as of this writing, do not offer an 8 channel version. The 16 channel desk is the smallest channel count that they currently make.

FWIW

d/

I checked up the StudioLive consoles and they seems to be amazing units.
The only thing that's bothering me is that there is no ADAT input or Digital Input. I would find it a bit limiting on the long run if one would consider buying high end outboard preamps in the future. Unless somebody can confirm the line in or insert could lead directly to the converters..

Looks great , can someone tell me whats the advantage of the 16.4.2 over the 16.0.2 ?

The 16-4 has 4 subgroups, the 16-2 has none - the "2" describes the master/stereo bus.

Also, you cannot daisy-chain two 16-2's together to obtain more channels, as you can with the 16-4-2's.

From what I understand, the original 16-4-2 has been discontinued, and the 16-4-2-AI is now the current defacto16 channel desk from Presonus.

That's not to say that you still can't get the older 16-4-2's - you just can't get them new, unless GC or Sweetwater would happen to have a few left in their inventory...I've seen them going for between $850 - $1200 used on eBay. Personally, I wouldn't spend more than $1000 on a 16-4-2.

(Dead Link Removed)

As far as support goes, knowing Presonus, I'm sure that tech support is still readily available for the original 16-4-2, and will likely continue to be available for quite sometime.

If it were me, I'd save up the cash and get the 16-4-2 AI.

http://www.presonus.com/products/StudioLive-AI-Series

IMHO of course.

d.

Well at the moment , the only thing in my price range will be a used 16.0.2 , which dosent seem so user friendly
They add hundreds of dollars on here in australia
but I dont mind as long as the quality of the converter is the same as the 16.4.2.
I see they have the same pre amps (y)
Ive been watching u tube demoes
Having less aux channels is a non issue here,

Ill keep my fingers crossed and wish for some new thing to come out so the prices come down , which is quite possible
in these times.

"Well at the moment , the only thing in my price range will be a used 16.0.2 , which dosent seem so user friendly"

I'm not sure what you mean by this, Smash... Are you referring to expandability? Or actual operation? Operation wise, The architecture and layout, like busing/assignment, grouping, gain structure, processing, etc., is going to be the same on all of the SL desks, regardless of the model you are looking at, and these desks really aren't that complex in their operation, as long as you already understand the fundamentals of gain structure, assignment, and processing. If you've ever worked on a console integrated with a DAW, I think it's likely that you will find that the SL series are probably one of the easier desks to use - after a traditional and expected learning curve, which you'll face with any new piece of gear of this type.. any new piece like this, no matter who makes it, will have some kind of learning curve period - where you need a little time to get accustomed to its nomenclature, function and layout; but as complexity goes, I think you'll find that the SL desks are on the user-friendly side.

I'd wager you'd be successfully recording tracks within an hour or two, and mixing within a day. In this age of YouTube instructional videos available, it's possible that these things could happen even quicker. It's amazing what's out there right now as far as step by step instructional videos. Hell - LOL - I even changed a belt in my clothes dryer by watching a video... and if you asked anyone that knows me, they'd tell you that everyone around me automatically dials 911-Emergency the second I even pick up a wrench. ;)

"Ill keep my fingers crossed and wish for some new thing to come out so the prices come down , which is quite possible.."

I think that it's likely that you'll see a substantial drop in price of the older models soon, as more of those owners will likely upgrade to the newer models; I'm not saying you should expect to see them for under $500 anytime soon, but I suppose it's possible eventually.

"but I dont mind as long as the quality of the converter is the same as the 16.4.2."

To my knowledge, all of Presonus's preamps and converters are the same ones ( XMAX) across the line, regardless of whether you are using a StudioLive desk, or a rack-mount VSL multi channel preamp, or a small desktop 1 or 2 channel USB pre. I could be wrong about that, but I don't think I am. I am very happy with my 1818VSL. Of course it's not a Millennia or a Neve, but it's still a very nice, transparent pre with loads of clean gain/headroom, and, without the artifacts that are so obvious in cheaper models. I'm fairly confident that for its price range, you'd find the SL to be tough to beat sound-wise. ;)

IMHO of course.

d/

The joys of buying stuff in Australia... back when I was last living there 2001, Aadvark (now antelope) Q10 was about a grand. I imported one from Canada with taxes was still only about 750. I think you'll get good mileage out of the Studio Live. I went Mackies after they put firewire in. The latest one the 1640i Onyx is also worth a look, and at this point, you SHOULD be able to pick up one of those at around your price too. Always so many options and opinions :D.

I've used both the digi 002 and the SL 16.4, for recordings and audio quality wise the SL is fuller and rounder and ore clear, no contest. Not the the SL is by any means amazing, but a sure step up.

But I just think the SL is you paying for features you don't need. Why not just an 8 ch presonus interface, and a cascade fathead?

You get the Xmax pres which are good. The adds and stuff will say more, but they are nothing special, there's just nothing blantlently wrong w them. Focusrite Safire stuff is on target w those. What makes them good is that they don't have the typical flaws of cheaper old stock pres, not that they are something amazing. I wouldn't buy any interface, especially in that class based on preamp quality, cuz it's probably the thing that matters/varies the least. Drivers stability, conversion/clocking design, routing, enough juice for headphones, that stuff is gonna vary far more, than a built in preamp, even tho these companies will try to stress how good the preamp is on a $100 interface. It's more how 'not bad' it is, rather than 'how good' it is. How little does it get in the way, vs how much does it transform good to great.

The SL would be suited to you if you were gigging but if all you need is 8ch in, the. There's no real advantage to incorporating a digital mixer. I guess being able to track w some eq and comp from the board like the new ones can is cool, but still not worth it to me I your case. But even that would be for simple hpf and emergency over level control, vs sweetening, and adding character, so again your paying for things that are utilitarian i nature, that are a god send live, but not necessarily necessary in a studio situation.

The SL is exactly what it says it does, studio and live. To me it's a live board that also has a convientent way to send multi track audio out, cleanly. But to get the most out of what your paying for you have to use it live too. That's where most of the features come in truly useful. Other than that there's better more focused options for the same money. IMHO.

To me for the same money, I'd get a 8in presonus or focusrite interface, a cascade fathead, or other toy, and maybe something the the ssl ch strip pluggin, and you'd have all your bases covered w out a mixer taking room up w a bunch of built in stuff you don't need. Then address other areas to upgrade. Room monitors other equip. Or skip the mics and work on those.

I play gigs with my wife on weekends , actually its our only work we do, and we have been using a soundcraft 8 ch passive desk for about
7 years now , so when i started looking into the studio live i was thinking how I could utilize a few more channels for live gigs.

At present we use all 8 channels , 2 ohs, 1 snare, kick ( yamaha elect pad to drum brain ) , 2 vocal mics , 2 guitar ins ( i use a midi pick up and make E and A strings a bass sound for 1 input )
So Im thinking of maybe a trigger on the snare to the drum brain to mix in sounds for funk or rocky stuff and another for ballads.
Also different scenes would be great , say one for ballads with appropriate reverbs etc , and I ve always wanted a compressor on my wifes
vocal channel to trim the hard hitting peaks 1 to 2 k when she lets rip.

I was thinking how the 16.0.2 isnt as user friendly because you have to toggle a master button to get to the solo, mute which is where I
could see myself easily stuffing up in a darkened room at a gig :confused:

So the Studio Live seems the way to go and we would make full use of the desk on weekends, I will just have to get use to
setting it up and taking it out of our studio room every week ( if I can get it down to 5 mins I can live with that )

if I can get it down to 5 mins I can live with that )

one snake that stays in the studio, one for gigs, you'll be plugged in and out in less.

Looks like a nice all around compact mixer. I'm not sure about workflow in particular details, but I used a 16.4 afew weekends a month for a year, and it's pretty well set up no as soon as y get used to the concept of a fat channel where you select the channel before manipulate it's controls, you'll be fine. It's the same on any digital mixer I've used.

The metering isn't the greatest, and especially on the ipad app, not having the RTA display, is weak, as well as GR metering there too. And the boards own display is kinda archaich and tough to read.

Those are little things I've noticed, but the ability to remotely control the mixer is awsome, sounds like your getting the best thing for yr needs. Good luck!