It'll be interesting to see if the comments are similar to those I sent you privately ;)

This version is slightly different from the one I sent you. I remixed and tweaked last night.

I'll go.
first impession..
maracas are distracting and just kind of sound like white noise in the mix in the beginning.. try a mix with that track on mute ;)
once it gets going the tamborines are too prickly, can you lop off the top end on those?
I kinda like the singers vocal during the sparser arrangements with no reverb. I think you turned it on a bit too soon, no vocal reverb until 1:38?
Can I also suggest more pick attack and less boom for this type of walking bass line?

I need a Tom Petty track for reference :)
did you check this mix in mono?

Thanks Josh. Ya. It checks out fine in mono. I suspect the "boomy" bass is because it's a Hoffner Beatle Bass, I probably should have stuck with a P bass for this track.

I have no problem dumping the maracas - or even the tambourine either - for that matter. Neither of those are deal breakers to me.
So you're saying I should wait until the full instrumentation comes in before adding verb to the lead vocal track?

i think so, from a songwriting perspective, i thought it felt too different.
i would axe those maraca/tamb elements. they are either too panned or need to be buttered more. too harsh.

dont think i didnt just download some petty for reference ;)

dig this bassline balance donny... very similar walking line, but not so ass ended.

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I cheat on that though. I have a giant bass node right in the corner behind me. I stick my head in there and if my hair shakes, it's too much... lol :)

okay... I think we might be getting somewhere here... and Kurt might be right in terms of having too much bass trapping... let me explain....

To me, this Petty track sounds bass-shy. Maybe this is telling me that I have too much low-end absorption in place. If I were mixing this Petty track in my room, I would have added 2 db around 80hz or so on the bass track, and then perhaps a bit of 1k-2k for presence.

I'm gonna have to run this by Space or Andre. I may have overdone the low end trapping?

Thanks for posting this Josh.

PS... as a side note, PC sent me an excerpt of my song after running it through his 4-710 with a touch of 1176, and it absolutely tightened up the low end and added definition. I'm hoping he'll post here what he sent me via email. I don't want to post it myself until I know it's cool with him, though. Plus, I can't answer questions as to specific settings he used during the processing, and he can. ;)

d/

I doubt I have the expertise or skill set to adequately comment, but I'll go ahead.

Did you considered putting a multi-band compressor on the vocal track? It would probably help with the shaky/warbling quality of the vocals.

I also agree with the note on ditching the additional percussions, unless you plans on softening the attack, and placing them further in the background. It does feel distracting.

I really enjoy the mixing on the guitars (acoustic, clean and gritty tones), and I like the tasteful use of delay. And although the bass feels very boomy, I really like the tone and the bassline. I enjoy the mixing for the drums, but am I hearing a sample being triggered with the snare hit? I would like to see if more of the rattle from the snare bottom can come through the mix. If that's how the snare is tuned, then I would see about blending in a sample replacement to have a greater presence of the crack on each hit.

Thanks Paco... I appreciate you taking the time to listen and post your thoughts.

I've deleted all percussion... no more shaker, no more tamborine. They were offering nothing of value to the song. It wasn't hard for me to ditch them. ;)

The snare isn't triggering anything. What you may be hearing is a convolution plate reverb I used on it, with a predelay setting of 90ms. The snare you are hearing is real, a 1968 Ludwig Black Beauty. In fact, all the drums are real (Yamahas)... I suspect that the predelay on the verb is what is giving you the impression o a triggered sound. I may need to tighten up the attack on the verb.

I'm thinking that the "boominess" that you and others are hearing on bass may be attributed to the bass itself - I used a Hoffner Beatle Bass on this track, and it's not the easiest bass in the world to mix. In fact, it's given me some hair-pulling moments. During one section it will sound fine, and two or 3 measures later, something sounds "off".. it's either too prominent, too shy, overbearing or seemingly not there at all, tonally speaking.

I wanted a kind of vintage sound to the bass track, but it has come at a high price in terms of frustration in getting it to sit well tonally in the mix... and yeah, I've used compression on it, as well as volume envelope drawing, with not a great deal of success, unfortunately. I've come to the point where this mix might be best served by just biting the bullet and re-tracking the bass from the ground up with a Fender P.

I did try using a MB (Fabfilter) on the lead vox, but it seemed to create a result that sounded too squeezed, lifeless. However, I may approach that process again.

The vocalist is a friend of mine, and he has MS, so sometimes his voice sounds shaky - what you are hearing as "warbly", is actual physical weakness. This track was the best performance we could get the day we recorded. I may be able to get him to approach a brand new performance on a day where he feels better. It's a day to day thing with him, unfortunately. MS is a terrible disease, and it takes its toll so many different ways.

Thanks again for listening and for your suggestions Paco. I really do appreciate it. :)

d/

Well, there's a couple references to Tom Petty.
Do you like the sound of this track?

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Do you see how the drum sound compares to your track?
How about the overall clarity?

Can you remix the drum, bass, gtr (no vocal or lead yet) to match?
I would like to see how close to this sound you can get.

Or do you like the 'Flirting With Time' sound better?
It's completely different. Personally I don't care for the quality or the mix.

If this is wrong type of sound you're going for, can you post something else that would be a better comparison?

You might not need fresher ears, just a better benchmark

My studio has been dismantled so I can only go by what I listen to the other day and my memory. It sounded crammed and over processed. My favourite part is the intro on the guitars and I always love your bridges and harmonies.

The problem I hear: Your drums are the smallest space in this. You are struggling to put a full meal inside a cardboard box. Your drums are forcing you to mix small and cramming it all up. Doing nothing but driving you bonkers. Its a loosing battle.

I blame this 100% on your drum sound, then conversion, gear and processing. Its a domino effect. Welcome to the nightmare.
If You gave this to me, I would replace the drums because they are restricting you to mix small.

Oh, Please don't resort to total drum replacement just yet. I've heard that knee jerk reaction so many times from wannabe producers, It's just silly.
This mix sounds like it would certainly separate the professional engineer from the novice.
As a seasoned professional I would never suggest replacement as a first approach. I can probably work wonders with what you have. You can also work wonders too. You just need a clearly defined goal, and figure out how to get there. Then, if something really needed replacing you would know for sure, and even then it might only be the kick for instance.
But please tell me that you have about 8 tracks of drums to work with. Tell me more how the drums are tracked.

I like this song and would really like to see the mix through here.

But it does depend on the type of sound you're going for. Retro (as in "Flirting With Time" ) Or more Contemporary (You don't know...)
If it's the retro approach, then you're really almost there.
In either case it's apparent that these two video's are brighter by comparison. There's several ways to get there as you know.

If you didn't over process anything on the way in, then everything should work out fine with 100% of the problem at this point being EQ.

"wannabe producers". I'm not sure if that isn't one of your best direct insult to me to date? Is it? First approach or not, that is a typical response from the less informed but overly confident.
Now all we need is Remy, then you two love birds can show us how its done in 2014. Perfect timing, I'm getting excited and I hope you finally show us (me especially) how to do it like a professional? :)

"This mix sounds like it would certainly separate the professional engineer from the novice."

I understand what you are saying. Right now I'm feeling much more like the latter than I am the former. It's frustrating, because I have done quality work many, many times in the past. This one, however, is not a good example of that.
Then again, I wasn't posting this track to get compliments... I knew that it didn't really deserve any... my intention was to let fresh ears hear this in an effort to figure out where I went wrong. ;)

I won't argue with Chris regarding the gear; there's no doubt that I have weak links in my gear chain. I'm in desperate need of an upgrade in both pre's and conversion... but I can't blame it all on that. I've done some nice work on this gear before. It would be too easy to put 100% of the blame on the equipment. At some point I need to take responsibility for how I used the gear...and in this particular case, I think I screwed the pooch but good.

I'm not quite sure how we got to the Tom Petty comparison here. I love Tom Petty, but it wasn't the sound I had set out for. If I've arrived there, or somewhere similar to it, it was purely by coincidence.
Personally, I'm not hearing the comparison, but then again, my ears are so fried right now that I'm not able to really hear anything at all.

The tracks are indeed discreet.. kick, snare, hh, toms on a stereo track (mic'd with X-Y), crash cymbals (same) ride (discreet).

But, before I start sending out tracks for a remix, I'm gonna strip this down to the bare bones one more time and have a go at it myself...again.

While I enjoy the thought of a mix-off, it's not going to do me any good in terms of figuring out where I went wrong. It's not a "pride" thing... (okay, maybe it's a little bit of pride) but mainly it's that I need to figure out the wrong turns I made along the way, because I took so many different turns in an effort to improve it... only to find that it resulted in the opposite.

It could indeed be over-processing. It could be over-compressed. It could be over-EQ'd. I made quite a few turns along the way, most of them wrong turns.

If we are going to have a mix-off, then the tracks need to be good at the source; and I'm now thinking that they aren't.

Let me think about this... I have a show I have to do tonight - out of town - so I will be gone here today from 3pm - tomorrow morning.

I'm not saying "no" unequivocally, but this is my first reaction right now. I need to figure out what I did to screw this one up so badly.

Thanks a bunch for listening and critiquing guys. I think you all know me well enough by now to know that I want honesty, and that this post wasn't an effort to show off.
LOL.. Believe me, if I wanted to show off, I sure wouldn't have posted this track, because I've done far better work than this. This was a courageous move on my part to make public a BAD mix in an effort to improve it. It's not an easy thing to do....laying out your weaknesses for the world to hear... but it's the only way I'm gonna get better at what I do.

Being a professional doesn't exclude you from making mistakes, or having a slump. ;)

d/

@Donny : it's a nice Idea to go back to the begining, remove all plugins/effects, ajust volumes and pan only and listen to it like that. Play it in your car and a few places.. let your ears/brain reset ;) and take notes on what you don't like about the bare/mix. After that take the list and put priority on the defects you dislike. Fix the first 25% and let it go like that for a couple of days (again in different systems)
Having a list and treat only a part of it at the time is the best way to avoid overmixing. Also, having a reference is a MUST, especialy when we are part of the project (musician/signer...) You know I'm not crasy about your decision to make the drum sound like in the 80' but you have all my respect. if you are to go 80s or not, make sure they sound big and still have dynamics to them. There will be some good compression happening in the mastering phase, try to use more automation and/or lower ratios. Also, try to avoid changing the reverb amount along the song. Make the band in a single room/hall from measure 1 to the end of the song. LESS IS MORE my friend !! ;)

audiokid, post: 417313, member: 1 wrote: "wannabe producers". I'm not sure if that isn't one of your best direct insult to me to date? Is it? First approach or not, that is a typical response from the less informed but overly confident.
Now all we need is Remy, then you two love birds can show us how its done in 2014. Perfect timing, I'm getting excited and I hope you finally show us (me especially) how to do it like a professional? :)

audiokid, I know you are going through hard times lately. You are a passionate and cleaver guy. You have the respect of many people on this board and we know what your are capable of. Hang on tight ! Even tho I cannot help, my thoughts are with you man ;)

"let your ears/brain reset.."

I think you pretty much hit this one on the head, Marco. I've been beating this horse continually, 2 weeks after it was already dead. The answer to my problems isn't to continue to tweak and add more processing... it's to use less.

I'm going back to square one on this project. Gonna start by stripping away everything, listen to the raw tracks, get balances and imaging that work well with each other... Which is how I should have approached this to begin with.

I knew I was continuing to dig the hole deeper and deeper with every "change" I made... it was like I couldn't stop myself... I broke my own basic engineering philosophy and rules - and I paid for it with what resulted, and what I absolutely should have expected: over-processed - over EQ'd - over compressed - no-definition or clarity - MUSH. MUD. CRAP. LOL

Thanks pal. ;)

"let your ears/brain reset.."

I think you pretty much hit this one on the head, Marco. I've been beating this horse continually, 2 weeks after it was already dead. The answer to my problems isn't to continue to tweak and add more processing... it's to use less.

I'm going back to square one on this project. Gonna start by stripping away everything, listen to the raw tracks, get balances and imaging that work well with each other... Which is how I should have approached this to begin with.

I knew I was continuing to dig the hole deeper and deeper with every "change" I made... it was like I couldn't stop myself... I broke my own basic engineering philosophy and rules - and I paid for it with what resulted, and what I absolutely should have expected: over-processed - over EQ'd - over compressed - no-definition or clarity - MUSH. MUD. CRAP. LOL

And you're right. I do need a reset. Right now, my brain and my ears are like a PC with millions of processes running at the same time, waiting for the "blue screen of death" crash.

I need to dump my mental RAM and reboot after taking a few days off and away from this one.

Thanks pal. ;)

Don't beat yourself so much, we're all been there. Working on our own project is always like starting with an handicap. We need some detachment to make it work... ;)

pcrecord, post: 417337, member: 46460 wrote: Don't beat yourself so much, we're all been there. Working on our own project is always like starting with an handicap. We need some detachment to make it work... ;)

LOL...great advice. I'll start with my head. I'm sure I have a saw-zall laying around in the basement somewhere. ;) LOL

you need a bud, a bud, and a bud is all donny. ;)

and tom petty because i dont listen to that genre, and couldnt think of anything else.

LOL... Ahhhh yes. Mister Bud.

Those days are long gone, Josh.

It was all great fun - until I started suffering from gigantic anxiety attacks while indulging.

Then came the booze, the benzo's, then the car accident, (not my fault but which did result in an eventual heavy addiction to pain pills)....

So ya see guys, (here goes...and I hope I don't lose anyone's respect or friendship) : Donny is a recovering drug addict and alcoholic. There... I said it.
Clean for 3 years, 7 months, 3 weeks and 6 days.... (but who's counting, right? LOL)

So, for better or worse (I'd like to think it's for the better) (y) - I'm a completely sober guy these days... (unless we're counting caffeine and nicotine, in which case I'm totally screwed... LOL)

Apparently, I did have a great time "back in the day" ... or at least I've been told that I did. ;)

d/

understood. i too am a drug addict. pills led to H... only i have a much harder time getting past it. which is why my old account here lapsed. so i smoke copious amount of reefer to keep R Lee Ermeys voice to a dull whisper, and avoid setting him off into full blown drill instructor asshole mode and screaming at me to get the fuck down off of his obstacle..

Familiarity breeds contempt.

The single best cure for for familiarity fatigue is time, that or hand the raw files off to someone else and let them just do a rough mix and send it back to you, to hear what they hear.

You really just need perspective from someone else' ears to give you a fresh slate to jump start your burn out... if you're truly burnt, or even if you're just stuck in the "what to do next" phase.

Thanks pc, that was really appreciated. Its a bitch going back to 2006. I started with a console in the mid 70's and by 1998 I had completely gone ITB. In 2006 I began hybrid and have nothing but positive things to say about it. I have a big hole in my heart. I feel lost, defeated and can't find a room in my house where I feel like sitting for long periods of time now.
It will be a good read as attempt to replace and discuss my OTB arsenal with ITB. "you don't know what you had until you lost it". After 24 hours ITB, I feel like quitting mixing and getting back to producing. Everything sounds crammed and dull now.

Donny, this is so far off of Tom Petty, I can't even fathom what he is talking about. o_O But Damn, I love Tom Petty! So ya, good for the brain!

Best words of advice from Max. Its why I was suggesting a mix from others.

Josh Conley, post: 417345, member: 47953 wrote: understood. i too am a drug addict. pills led to H... only i have a much harder time getting past it. which is why my old account here lapsed. so i smoke copious amount of reefer to keep R Lee Ermeys voice to a dull whisper, and avoid setting him off into full blown drill instructor asshole mode and screaming at me to get the @#$% down off of his obstacle..

Classic!

@Donny-

I'm not quite sure how we got to the Tom Petty comparison here. I love Tom Petty, but it wasn't the sound I had set out for. If I've arrived there, or somewhere similar to it, it was purely by coincidence.

Ok, good- Making progress. Just post a commercial release or two that you're hoping to emulate, and it can get better, I promise you.
Don't worry too too much about the quality.
The audiokid mentioned somewhere recently about the hideous Liza Colby mixing project. What a bunch of subpar tracks to work from. The interesting thing that resulted from that debacle was that the mixes ranged from even more horrendous than the source tracks to many that were quite good.

I've been beating this horse continually, 2 weeks after it was already dead

My fav quote: The only thing worse than beating a dead horse is riding one.

audiokid

I'm not sure if that isn't one of your best direct insult to me to date? Is it?

- well, you might think so, but it probably isn't

Suggesting drum replacement as a first approach or not is a typical response from the less informed.

(as Jeff Spicoli would say) Uhh, yah.

Sorry, you're just too easy when you go firing from the hip like that.
I mean, C'mon, Drum Replacement? I know you know better.

I have a high degree of confidence that Donny can improve this mix considerably.

natural, post: 417356, member: 29673 wrote: @Donny-

Ok, good- Making progress. Just post a commercial release or two that you're hoping to emulate, and it can get better, I promise you.
Don't worry too too much about the quality.
The audiokid mentioned somewhere recently about the hideous Liza Colby mixing project. What a bunch of subpar tracks to work from. The interesting thing that resulted from that debacle was that the mixes ranged from even more horrendous than the source tracks to many that were quite good.

My fav quote: The only thing worse than beating a dead horse is riding one.

audiokid

- well, you might think so, but it probably isn't

(as Jeff Spicoli would say) Uhh, yah.

Sorry, you're just too easy when you go firing from the hip like that.
I mean, C'mon, Drum Replacement? I know you know better.

I have a high degree of confidence that Donny can improve this mix considerably.

"I know you know better" The teacher has spoken once again.
Natural, you really need to read a good book on Pop culture and stop listening to the dated or uniformed. Yes, you are uninformed.
Who is firing from the hip? I'm shooting you straight in the head hoping you drop the insults and degrading talk toward me. Maybe that's the problem though, you don't feel you have any peers here? It would be big of you to at least show some better respect. I find you quite abrasive and degrading most times and its wearing thin.
You are saying to me "I know you know better". Like I am some kid being scolded. So, do I just turn the other cheek?
You are far from informative at the best of times and I suppose its just you be your Natural Self.

People I respect, including myself use all sorts of tricks that can be noticed or go unnoticed if you are skilled at it. This drums are clearly lacking to my ears. I can't help you cannot hear that or disagree but to say "I know you know better". hmm.

To my knowledge, you cannot mix something that isn't there. Replacement would be the best option when you don't have the source to begin with.

Please keep your " belittling teacher approach" towards me or others to yourself. I don't mind anyone with strong opinions but saying to another peer that they know better, when they actually meant what they said is about as low as you can go before you toss sand into someone eyes. Not impressed. Hope you come around to being a little more open and kind.

regards,

Oops, Sorry, did I cross the line with you back there?
I figured since you felt free to throw many directly (what some might call very disrespectful) barbs at me, that you were used to that kind of thing.
I didn't realize that you weren't.
Please accept my apologies.
I guess for the record, I should point out that I have no connection with Remy (romantic or otherwise as you have insinuated), although I may have agreed with her a couple of times. And all the other hurtful stuff you've said about me is unsupported and I strongly disagree.

Also for the record- what you originally thought was about you, really wasn't. I really do get some know it all types that are quick to suggest all kinds of things without first getting down to the raw tracks. I'm sure you get those too. I think we all do. But, you've clearly explained that's not you so it shouldn't have connected that way. But you kind of took the ball and ran with it before I could respond, so I kind of ran with it too a little.
But I do apologize again for saying "I know you know better" I didn't mean that.

So I hope we're good, because I do want to see how the mix of this song eventually turns out.
sincerely.
t

Sure thing. :)

Back to helping Donny.

Initially, Donny wanted a 80' sound to his drums, I first thought they were bad samples and I was shamefull when he said they weren't..LOL.. He's gonna go back mixing from ground up.
I can't wait to hear is next mix. I'm sure we will be surprise ! ;)

I'm a mixer so I don't have the luxury to redo. I also know when something is impossible and a waste of time. I also hear gear that lacks and know the problems it creates in a mix. You may try and spin it another way but its still going to be the same size in the end. The client thinks it so much better, to me, its still going to be small and through the same box. Ten thousand takes through a budget pre and ADDA in the same room is still that same.

Drums surround the mix. If all you have is a small bandwidth to work with, everything inside your drum mix has to be smaller for it to sound right. Now we could of course mix like old school western where the drums are just sort of there and the bass is basically holding up the fort, but I don't this is what Donny wants or hears in this 80's mix.
So, like most who track real drums using average gear. Welcome to the bandwidth nightmare. For this style of music, you are sure to suffer endlessly trying to get a big sound inside small kit. Its a losing battle so replace it or hire someone to play the drums.
You want big drums, it cost money and takes space. Non of which most of us have.

So, the poor guy is hurting his brain because he hears it in his head but it ain't happening. I do agree, that he may very well be able to get it bigger. I'm willing to try but its more to see if I can get my crappy ITB leftovers of what I once had, close enough to what I once had. Plus, I'm convinced plug-ins are shit so I'm excited to try and get a bigger mix using less.

This is my cold opinion cause I never took on music to be average. Get your wallet out if you want that big lush drum sound or be smart and emulate it. Put your time and money into the music and emulate the drums. Otherwise, you will always be restricting your mix to the sound of your crappy drum studio and small space. The space which is excellent for everything else!

If you've heard Donnys work like I have, you know he deserves the Warehouse Studio In Vancouver right now.

I would love to have a big room but i can't afford it so am I going to kill my mix just to me a martyr?
If you are playing around to learn, just doing this music game for fun , cutting demos, its a different story. But if you are trying to sell your studio and work using home recording gear, I'd be looking into transient detection and learning how to replace drums like a pro. You do that like a pro and a whole new world open up. If the song gets a buzz, you can always redo the drum track with the shit that makes drums dance.

audiokid ; I totally understand what you're saying, but let me voice a little doubt. My little doubt comes from the knowledge that if you have a great kit, well tuned but don't have the big room, close mics can help you greatly. I saddly moved my studio 3 years ago and my new place have a medium control room and a small recording room. I have to install my Ayotte drum to rehearse a show coming soon. I'll take time to mic it and upload some samples. Maybe I'm all wrong and I'll fail ! In any case, I look foward to your comments.

Btw, if I have no choice but go for a virtual drum sound, I rather play on an electric drum to create a midi track than go with drum replacement.
Of course I know you often receive tracks from others and when it's crap, it's CRAP!! Those times naturally call for drum replacement ;)

pcrecord,
It sounds like you have the luxury to do quite a variety, nice. I agree. I actually prefer blending existing overheads with whatever works for snare and kick. The key for me is to find a way to expand squashed room sound (if its present and restricting). What Donny has to me is restricting.
I bet we all agree, we suck out the mids to try and compensate, thus loose the snap and then the nightmare starts.
If the original room sound is at a point its sucking the life out of the music, you do what it takes to keep the music full and musical. Thats where I'm going with this "replacement thing" Midi, samples whatever it takes. I love BFD3 and the MPC Renaissance is wonderful for writing drums too. If I was a real drummer, I would be doing what you do pc. (y)

There's no doubt that I've done far better work in terms of drums sounds in the past. Remember guys, I'm a drummer as well as an engineer, so drum sounds do matter to me.

I am limited. I don't have my studio with the huge live room with 18' ceilings anymore, so I make due with what I do have now, which is, unfortunately, my living room.

I'm not against drum replacement... not at all. I've used it more times than I can count in the past. I'm not against using anything that will make the mix sound better. I don't limit myself to a certain number of plugs because I have an OB rack of fantastic analog gear...I don't have that luxury. If a track needs EQ, then I use the ITB EQ that I have. The same for gain reduction....
(BTW, I did manage to borrow to real LA2's from a fellow engineer for one day on a previous mix version of this song, back when I thought I was done.. I strapped it across the 2-Bus and sent the final mix to another PC)

What I'm saying is that if a track needs a particular reverb, while another needs delay, while yet another needs chorus/flange/phase, then as a producer, I use what I have to get the song what I think it needs.

It's fine to self-impose limitations, (and easier to do on a sparse track that's just guitar, bass and drums) But that's not what this song is. There are obvious effects present, because that's the way I hear the song in my head.

Is the song over processed? Maybe. Probably.
Did I record in less than perfect conditions? I most certainly did.
Am I in dire need of a preamp-converter upgrade? Without a doubt. No argument there.

But right now, I have what I have, so I'm forced to use what I have, to get the best mixes I can. Yes, it's true I'm not tracking through a Neve or an SSL. Nor am I using a high dollar standalone converter.
So of course I'm not going to get the same quality as a million dollar studio does. It's a given.

But what's the alternative? Is it to stop recording, stop creating - until I can upgrade all the links in my chain? That's just not an alternative for me at all.

The reason that this song has become so frustrating for me is because I have turned out nice mixes in the past using the exact same gear that I used on this track.

So, while there's no argument that I need a serious upgrade, I have done previous work that I am proud of on this current rig... and that's what has me pulling my hair the most, I suppose.

FWIW

d/

I had a listen a few mins back and I thought the electric guitar and snare were fighting for the same frequency? Maybe take a look there....

Back to basic Donny! Run the clean tracks, check phases, volumes, pans. Build on this slowly and A/B with your favorite record. (not to compare the style but to compare your mix sonicly. I'm confident you'll get it right.
Send me a mix at every step if you want, I'll be glad to help.
In fact I'd like to hear you raw tracks. I'm sure they aren't so bad and I'm willing to make a shot at mixing them. Not to give you a mix to use but to compare where your song could go with fresh ears and inspire you to do your best mix to date !! Each studio I built over the years called for different recipes because of the room acoustics and the gear I had at the time... It's been 2 years since I moved to my actual place and I think I found my recipe only last month :rolleyes:

I also think the discussion as went to far.
Go make a minimal mix Donny. We'll start from there (y)

Okay, so here's a version stripped down to no added processing or effects, whatsoever.

There was some gain reduction used on the front end while recording things like kick, snare, vocals, etc., to tame transients on the way in.

Any effect heard is because it was printed that way, as in the case of guitars where I did use some FX, because this was the sound I ultimately wanted, and I thought it better to just record it that way, as opposed to taxing the CPU and RAM with VST's after the fact during the mix.

There are also some effects on synth and B3... these effects - reverb and delay mostly, were an inherent part of the original patch used. I didn't add anything.

This isn't a "mix".

There may be some things louder/quieter than others... I simply removed ALL processing from each track, as well as from buses, and the Master 2-Bus as well, so it can be determined if the source tracks are up to par and are of a caliber sufficent enough in fidelity to export for the "Great UAD/No UAD Mix-Off Battle Of The Century" between Chris and Josh.

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Hey I loved that Donny , I enjoyed listening to that so much more than the previous mix.
It all sounded natural to me except the toms , dont ask me why but somehow they didn't
sit in the picture . my 5 cents from my headphones. (y)

I hear some stuff here that I think might be complicating your mix -- I hear competing aesthetics (compositional) within the song that each suggest or demand a different sound. You start with the clean guitar & solo voice with the guitar playing a figure that's very reminiscent of Ronnie James Dio's "Rainbow In The Dark". (That figure is so dominant that every time I hear it in the song I sing the chorus to the Rainbow.) This isn't itself a problem but it sets up my anticipation that the mix and the song will be in the rock power ballad format - I'm anticipating mid 80's to late 80's power ballad rock. When the singer comes in he's pretty stylized (also common to this genre) - but with some maturity that is suggestive of Lou Gram --- and I was suddenly reminded of "Urgent" off of Foreigner 4 (without the Sax). These are related aesthetics - but as the other instruments come in the sound suddenly smooths out and I'm hearing Steve Miller's Abracadabra --- This smoothing aesthetic suddenly makes the Dio guitar figure out of place and my anticipation of what I'm supposed to be hearing is oscillating between the smooth and rock - I'm struggling for ground. With the vocal harmony, the keys and the bass you suddenly invoke full on yacht rock pastiche - I'm thinking Steely Dan - Toto - Doobies (W/ MM). At this point the mix itself is caught between a rock and a yacht place. You've conjured up the ghosts of both genres and now the mix complicated by that dialogic.

It is probably too late to rework that guitar figure but I'd make a commitment to the mix and go full on smooth - full on yacht rock - make sure that the yacht dominates the rock and slays that Dio dragon. Put some deck shoes on and mix thinking yacht.

I just think that part of your struggle here has been the dialogic -- the interplay of those genre specific sounds competing for thematic dominance in the mix and this has caused you to lose your ground. I've not the skill set or vocabulary to suggest any technical specifics about what to do -- I think as a skilled and experienced guy you probably do know and have the resources to knock this out of the park on your own -- I just think maybe you need to deal with the dialogic and be clear about what this song is supposed to be - and with that clarity you'll know exactly how to treat this.