I'd rather have two RNPs, or maybe one RNP, a VTB-1 and a Focusrite Trak Master - though I've never actually tried the VTB and the Focusrite (which may be really bad I don't know), but having some options to pick and choose from might be good. I personally like the RNP, for it's price. I can't say much about the sytek other then some have complained about not having enough headroom. But yeah I've heard good things about them too.

There has been much discussion on the sytek preamp in this forum already, pro and con. Do a search and you will see. I have one and am very happy with it. there are others who say buy a John Hardy instead. Since I haven't heard a John Hardy I can't advise on how great the difference is. I have heard mackies, arts, motus, ranes, behringers and other budget preamps and the Sytek is definitely a cut above. I also have a grace 101 and the sytek is close to my ears. (grace has a lil bit more definition in the top end) I like the sytek with the burr brown for pop vocals better than the grace. I am sure other mods who have heard both the Sytek and the john hardy can tell you a little more on how they differ. If you do a search, though, you will see that the subject has been beat to death. (and there is no real concensus out there!) I guess preampa are like women, there are many different flavors and guys have their preferences. (if you are a woman, please reverse the satement!!!!)

I'm gonna use it mainly for recording electric guitars , bass and vocals. I won't be recording any drums so anything more than 4 channels will be a waste.
I prefer having at least two channels though so I can do stereo recordings.

Just FYI, the music I'm making is heavy metal in the vein of Metallica/Pantera thus the guitars will be heavily distorted. Vocalsl include both singing and screaming. So what I am looking for is something that will give me the best sound possible on those applications.

So far my options include:
Sytek MPX-4Aii
RNP
Sebatron VMP2000eVU (if I can find it really cheap that is)

Also I've seen the Apogee Mini MP being mentioned a few times, anyone care to elaborate a bit on this?

The topic is very subjective. Some folks seem to think the moderately priced, mid level, electronically balanced mic pres like the RNP and the Syteks offer a substantial increase in quality. I think that while they are a bit different sounding, IMO they are not better than the average Mackie or other small format mixers pre amps.. but instead, the result of natures abhorrence to a vacuum, a reaction to the marketplace screaming for a great mic pre for less than $500.

Manufacturers know they can market this stuff to people who have never heard a really great mic pre and therefore have no real frame of reference to make a comparison... and by making them sound a bit different, they can assert that they sound "better" ...

Unfortunately, I think it is mostly a lot of hype. I have to ask ..."If these mic pres are so freakin' transparent, if they are so accurate (as they are claimed to be), why do they all sound so different?? Everything colors a signal ... there is no straight wire with gain ... The cheapo manufacturers all go for the uncolored / accurate designs because they are easier and cheaper to build. They can come up with a printed circuit board and a few surface mounted robotically stuffed chips and a very low voltage power supply (wall warts). I would like to see a transformer balanced mic pre with discreet transistors and a 24 volt power supply at an affordable price point ... OH! wait ... it can't be done that cheap ....

While we are at it, let's discuss these chips that have dozens of components all stuffed into one .... IMO these are the problem as much as anything else ... The consistency from chip to chip is questionable and when the chip or the assembly that it is mounted on fails, the whole assembly has to be replaced because it would cost more than the whole piece is worth to disassemble it and place the assembly into a jig to replace the surface mounted component. On the other hand, if you have discreet components, soldered through the circuit board, any tech in your home town, with a proper schematic can replace the defective part .... and you are back in business faster that your pre amp can reach the service center in LA.

Also to be considered, is the availability of assemblies in the future. Once the product is out of production, good luck .. But with products that are built using discreet components, replacements or original parts can almost always be found. Just look at all the old Neve and APIs there are still in service ...

Bob Rock recorded Metallica and he uses vintage Neve 1073s to record everything .. If that 's the sound you want you need a mic pre that is transformer balanced ... The Sytek, RNP, Grace all are electronically balanced, the Sebatron has a transformer ... and while I personally like the Sebatron the best of all the pres you mention, I am not sure it is the sound you are looking for .... the pre that would do what you want the best would be a Great River MP NV .... and a single channel one (MP1NV) can be purchased for around a grand I believe ...

FWIW, here's what Steve Albini has to say (as a guy who knows a thing or two about recording distorted guitars):

"I wholeheartedly agree that the Syteks are excellent mic amps and excellent value.

They are also an interesting oddity, in that they don't follow any of the current trends in mic pre-amp design, and are excellent by virtue of how they are made, and not a quirky topology or exotic components.

If you open one up, you'll see a simple, elegant amplifier using what appear to be bog-standard TL072 (I think, I don't recall) J-FETs. No expensive transformer, no video-speed op-amp, no silver-foil-on-beeswax capacitors. In short, no magic. Just a simple, well-laid-out design, using standard but high-quality components which have been individually-selected for low noise and tight tolerances.

The designer, Mike Stoica, builds and tunes them himself, and sells them not for the highest price he could possibly get (he could easily get more), but for a _reasonable_ profit which ensures he makes money from repeat business.

I own many channels of these, and I rate them qualitatively as equals - not substitues for - my Massenburgs, Neves, John Hardys and the best console pre-amps I have ever heard. They are crisp, clean and noise-free, and they provide more-than-adequate gain for low-output mics like old RCAs, Altecs and the like, without adding breakup, instability or hiss.

There is a golden age for any style of electronic design. Tubes began as unruly, low-bandwidth, noisy, inefficient beasts. Transformer and tube technology matured to the point that we were graced with lovely sounding equipment by the late '50s and into the '60s. Microphones, oweing to their simplicity, matured faster.

Transistor electronics were even more bastardly until designers like Neve, Flickinger, API, and Trident placed the emphasis where it belonged, in signal integrity as a whole, not just in the frequency-domain.

With excellent IC-based electronics currently being built by GML, Neve (Rupertless), Neotek and Sytek, we may be approaching a breakthrough in the quality of IC-based audio, as designers solve the subtle but serious problems of earlier designs.

Most folks do, however, get it wrong, and we still have to suffer through mass-produced semi-professional crap being used on a regular basis. Sytek and things like it are an excellent alternative to this caliber of equipment, for no more money. Hurrah.

-steve albini"

In short, at $750 - $800 a piece for 4-channels, they're a damn good value.

Sorry, I don't buy it .... ya gets what ya pays for.

I suppose at some point I will have to post some comparison audio clips of a Sytek vs. Neve types like the MPNV and my 9098, as well as my Sebatron and a Mackie pre so that you all can hear the differences yourselves ... That's what it took to get the RNPers to quiet down .... and I suppose that's what it will take to get advocates of the Sytk to do the same.

Anyone want to send me one for a week or two ???

Cedar Flat Fats wrote: Sorry, I don't buy it ....

You don't have to buy it. But a lot of people have, and get excellent results with them.

I suppose at some point I will have to post some comparison audio clips of a Sytek vs. Neve types like the MPNV and my 9098, as well as my Sebatron and a Mackie pre so that you all can hear the differences yourselves ... That's what it took to get the RNPers to quiet down .... and I suppose that's what it will take to get advocates of the Sytk to do the same.

I've used the Sytek pre's on many occasions. I've also used Neves, Great Rivers, 9098's and Mackie's. The Sytek is a damn fine little utility pre that is worlds better than a Mackie. No MP3 clip of yours is going to "quiet me down" or in any way change the opinions of them that I have formed through personal experience. Nor, I suspect, would your clips "quiet down" Albini. To suggest otherwise is more than a little pompous.

Anyone want to send me one for a week or two ???

No.

NIko,
nee ner nee ner to you too!

Hey! I have and idea. Let's keep the comments on the topic and let's not call each other names.

Everytime we go here (cheap preamps) people who have nothing more to offer start calling other people names (usually me) and making personal attacks ... it really doesn't further the discussion and really turns readers off. I never cease to wonder at people who want to insist that cheap pres can sound as good as time tested designs.

If you could be so kind to post some mp3s of the Sytek against the Mackie and the MPNV I would be thrilled .... but according to what you said, nothing would convince you differently because Steve Albini has said otherwise. It must be nice to be able to form an opinion without thinking or judging for yourself. It's a real time saver.

Record the samples, and then give the results to some neutral person, like Xavier (who seems to like Syteks). Then post the compaison clips without saying which is which, until several people have commented on which they like best. ... I would be willing to venture the MPNV will come out better and it really wouldn't surprise me if the Mackies did well also .. ... in the case of the RNP, my Mackie SR24vlz pres were judged to sound clearer and have a better overall sound.

Last kostein asked specifically about the sounds recorded by "Metallica/Pantera.. " I responded by pointing out that Bob Rock uses Neve 1073's. I think that my Bob Rock trumps your Steve Albini ...

Cedar Flat Fats wrote: NIko,
Hey! I have and idea. Let's keep the comments on the topic and let's not call each other names.

My comments were very on topic, and I didn't call you names. Read my post again.

...according to what you said, nothing would convince you differently because Steve Albini has said otherwise. It must be nice to be able to form an opinion without thinking or judging for yourself. It's a real time saver.

No. Again, try reading my post. Here's what I said: I HAVE USED THE SYTEK PRE'S ON MANY OCASSIONS I also said that I have formed my opinions of them THROUGH PERSONAL EXPERIENCE To clarify and elaborate, I have used them often. I have used them on many occassions on many sources. I have used them on heavy guitars. One of the studios that I regularly work at has a unit and I use it. Personally. Often. Who's the one slinging insults here?

Record the samples, and then give the results to some neutral person, like Xavier (who seems to like Syteks). Then post the compaison clips without saying which is which, until several people have commented on which they like best. ...

I do not own these pre's. And I am not going to rent studio time to do that. Nor am I going to use studio time that someone else is paying for to run little experiments for you. Nor, for that matter, do I care to waste my own personal time doing that. I was responding to kostein. You and he can each make what you wish of my comments, but to suggest that you are going to have to "quiet me down" is offensive. To suggest that my opinion is worthless unless I post MP3's is also offensive.

Last kostein asked specifically about the sounds recorded by "Metallica/Pantera.. " I responded by pointing out that Bob Rock uses Neve 1073's. I think that my Bob Rock trumps your Steve Albini ...

So, if I point out that Terry Date uses API's, does that mean 1073's suck? What exactly is your point? Bob Rock was not talking about Syteks. Albini was.

Like I said, quality comes first, quantity second. I prefer having 2 channels of great pres instead of 4 channels of good pres. I will need at least 2 channels. Even though having 4 channels sounds nice, most of the time I'll be using just 2.

Regarding the Great River. I've read a lot about these pres in the forums. The general feel I got is that they're best suited for acoustic instruments. But then, a great pre is good for just about anything right? I'm willing to shell out an arm and leg for the Great River MP-2NV if you guys give me enough reason to. It sounds like a wise investment even though I'm gonna have to live with corn flakes for the rest 5-6 months (well I'm exaggerating a bit, but you know what I mean).

Cedar Flat Fats wrote: Record the samples, and then give the results to some neutral person, like Xavier (who seems to like Syteks). Then post the compaison clips without saying which is which, until several people have commented on which they like best. ... I would be willing to venture the MPNV will come out better and it really wouldn't surprise me if the Mackies did well also .. ... in the case of the RNP, my Mackie SR24vlz pres were judged to sound clearer and have a better overall sound.

Last kostein asked specifically about the sounds recorded by "Metallica/Pantera.. " I responded by pointing out that Bob Rock uses Neve 1073's. I think that my Bob Rock trumps your Steve Albini ...

Comparing a Sytek and a 1073 is misguided. These are totally different animals. They each have their different uses.

I agree with Albini that the Sytek is a quality pre. It's a very nice clean accurate sound as opposed to the colored Neve sound. I wouldn't use the Neve in places where the Sytek is more suited and vice versa. Aside from this distinction, I find the Sytek to have staying power in my rack and has been used on most recordings I've done since I got it.

As far as the "you get what you pay for" comment, that's just wrong. There are many examples of reasonably priced quality gear as well as many more examples of way overpriced mediocrity.

well you gotta do what makes you most comfortable. It would probably be better quality-wise to get two better preamps like Great River or Sebatron, but it's not gonna be the end of the world if you choose to get the Sytek or whatever. (yeah I think those mackies are 'clearer' then RNP but I don't think RNP were meant to be transparent in that way - Please Kurt, no offense intended!)

kostein wrote: I'm willing to shell out an arm and leg for the Great River MP-2NV if you guys give me enough reason to.

If you've got the cash for an MP-2NV and don't need four channels, by all means go for it. It's a very nice pre (and quite flexible).

By the way, if soundclips are your thing (even though they give you damn-near-zero information about what a pre would sound like on a different source, in a different song, with a different mic in a different room on a different day), you might want to find someone with a copy of this:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/3DPreCD/

It's a bunch of preamp samples done under circumstances that are about as controlled as you can get for one of these tests. It's also a real CD, not MP3's. It's a couple of years old, so doesn't have the MP-2NV on it, but it does have the Sytek. Listen to it blindly, and I think you'll find the Sytek compares extrememly well to some very expensive stuff. I think you'll also find that the Mackie, ART and Presonus pre's compare rather poorly. If you don't hear a huge difference between the Sytek and the Mackie, I'd suggest upgrading your monitor path.

I do own, like and use the sytek all the time and get good results with it. Much better than I used to get with a mackies, art, rane ms1, yamaha mla7, or the preamps in the Motu 828 mkii. I also own a grace 101 and the sytek is close to it in the clean channels (the grace does have more headroom and detail) but I prefer the sytek for vocals through the channels with the Burr brown option when I use it with my new K2 tube mic. With the U87 I still like the grace better.

I also see a great river Mp2nv in my rack in the not too distant future. And a 4 ch Sebatron when I can afford it. Some neves would also be welcome, and a EW fearn preamp... please start a collection!

My point is that the sytek gives me good results in the way I use it, with the gear I have. when I get the great river or the sebatron I'll post my opinion on that, how it compares. Until then, please let the bulls run in Pamplona!

nikko,

No MP3 clip of yours is going to "quiet me down" or in any way change the opinions of them that I have formed through personal experience. Nor, I suspect, would your clips "quiet down" Albini. To suggest otherwise is more than a little pompous.

This is the specific comment you made that I thought was uncalled for .. You did not need to include that and I feel it was used to to belittle me and make me look bad ... (a personal attack) and I just don't allow that here at RO. Not towards me or anyone else. I could have just deleted it but then I would be the "big ol' bad Nazi censoring thought control violator of free speech" ... so I choose to confront it in the light of day. Which is the better approach? I think the first judging by the way this thread is going off topic ....

Any discussion on the merits of an opinion is fine but when someone starts making it personal, I object.

All I require is for all to be able to offer opinion and discuss the questions. Everyone has something to offer. Someone may even be able to convince me of their POV, it has happened.

I don't care about what Albini said in regards to this.. no one is right all the time and this is not the first thing he has said that I do not agree with. I do not discount the man, he has made more hit records than all of us put together I suspect.

I have used these also and I have never been impressed with them. I think they are sterile and cold sounding and do not generate any excitement, much like a Mackie pre or a pre you might find in a Tascam console. They have a tendency to run out of headroom as well, also like the Mackies. For a clean uncolored, transparent type pre, I would lean more towards an Earthworks, Grace 202 or in a best case scenario, a Millennia HV-3.

To me it is a only different brand of vanilla ice cream, nothing more. Some folks like that, I don't. Is Bryers vanilla better than Dryers vanilla? Sure, but I'll take any chocolate any day. I will take any well executed 3 stage Neve clone over any electronically balanced mic pre every time (Millennia's included). At the top of my post I did mention it was a very subjective topic.

If someone were at the roadside giving away for free a GRMP2NV and a pair of Sytek MPX- 4's, I bet the Great River would be gone first ...

Cedar Flat Fats wrote: nikko,
This is the specific comment you made that I thought was uncalled for .. You did not need to include that and I feel it was used to to belittle me and make me look bad...

It was not intended to belittle you or make you look bad. However, your statement that you were going to have to "quiet down" anyone who liked Sytek pre's was offensive, belittleing and completely uncalled for. My comment was an attack on the offensiveness of what you said. Your comments were personal attacks on the integrity and ability of anyone who expressed a like for Sytek pre's.

I don't care about what Albini said in regards to this...

That's fine. It's another opinion. You don't have to care. Nor do you have to care about my opinion or about Xavier's opinion. Nor do you have to care about e-cue's opinion (expressed on another thread). I know who e-cue is, and he probably has more hit records than all of us put together as well. But they are still all just opinions. They have been offered. It is open to everyone reading them to make what they will of them.

I have used these also and I have never been impressed with them. I think they are sterile and cold sounding and do not generate any excitement, much like a Mackie pre or a pre you might find in a Tascam console.

...and I disagree. You don't hear much difference between a Sytek and a Mackie. I hear a BIG difference. But that's fine. I have my opinion and you have yours. People offen differ in their opinions about many things. Just because someone feels differently than you doesn't mean that they are wrong or that you should take it upon yourself to "quiet them down" though. Your opinions do not take precedence. And it does a great disservice to anyone asking for an opinion to try to convince them that your opinion is the only one that they should consider. Disagree, fine. But don't disparage those who disagree with you.

Hey all. Been lurking on here for quite a while and thought I'd post on what's become the topic in this thread.

It's kind of weird, but when I read threads like this, it's almost like watching one of those reality TV shows, you know? When people start becoming aggressive and nasty toward each other [for real, no actors], and you can just sit down and watch it without any risk of your own, it's almost impossible to look away. You know there's something wrong about wanting to watch, but it's somehow entertaining in some deep, dark place in your brain. Just an idiotic observation maybe.

Anyway, I really believe these kinds of things always start out as misunderstandings, mainly just because sometimes it's tough to get a feel for the "flavor" of a post without knowing the people involved or at least their writing personalities. I've been reading just about everything Kurt has written for the past 10 months or so, and now that I have a feel for his tone and rhythm, I can say without any doubt in my mind that he had no intention to offend when he threw out the "quiet them down" comment. Rather, it seemed to me like one of those good-natured pokes that are fun to throw in. After all, if you can't inject a little bit of slight humor in your posts, it makes for a pretty dry board, don't you think?

So, although I think I understand your reaction Nikko, I hope that you will at least consider that it may have just been an unfortunate initial first impression. For what it's worth, I have picked up a tremendous amount of personal information from Kurt. Not only that, but I've gone against some of his recommendations regarding budget equipment, only finding out later that he was exactly right. I like Kurt. In fact, now that I really think about it, I may be in love with him.

Just trying to lighten it up. But, I have to say I've learned the hard way about some of this, and I couldn't agree more about Kurt's theme of comparing equipment side by side, in a blind testing manner, to really find out what's best.

Let me finish this long post with an example: about 6 months ago, I decided that the semi-pro audio world needed a really good, side-by-side test of low-cost pre-amps. Too many people out there (me included) just cannot bring themselves to invest more than a few hundred dollars in any one piece of equipment if there may be a low-cost alternate, and I thought it would be cute to be able to provide something that losers like me could use to compare these things.

So off I went. Hit a few music stores (only the ones with 30 day money-back options, of course), stopped by a few of my also tight-wad friend's studios, and ended up with a whole Saturday afternoon and a Summit 2BA-221, a Focusrite Voicemaster Platinum, an ART Tube-PAC, a Studio Projects VTB-1, a Behringer T1953, a Presonas TubePRE, and a Mackie 1202VLZ. Made a bunch of wave files using a male vocal going into a Studio Projects C-1 mic, then preamp X, then a Flying Cow A>D converter, and finally into a Sonar-equipped PC.

Over the next few months, I made everyone that came by the house give me their opinions. Most were musicians, but I also used neighbors, relatives, work buddies, a college professor, the landscape guy, the UPS delivery guy, you name it. I also used 3 different sets of monitors during the blind tests (budget-levels, of course) to be sure it wasn't just a monitor thing. By an absolute shockingly overwhelming margin, the stupid Behringer was the favorite. I would have never guessed that in a million years, mainly due to all the yammering I read about on Internet boards by some guy saying he thinks the ACME WHATEVER is the bomb, when that's all he has ever listened to in his life.

Side-by-side tests are the only real way to get at the truth, and they are hard to come by. The trick is to find someone like Kurt who thinks the same way and is also willing to do them for all of us. Now that's a time saver.

Anyway, peace. I hope this post isn't dissected and commented upon piece-by-piece, because it would only hurt my feelings and drive me back into lurkerland--I like to watch, but that's about it. Kidding again, of course.

Dino

dino757 wrote: I hope this post isn't dissected and commented upon piece-by-piece, because it would only hurt my feelings and drive me back into lurkerland--I like to watch, but that's about it. Kidding again, of course.

:lol:

I just have comments on two pieces...

I've been reading just about everything Kurt has written for the past 10 months or so, and now that I have a feel for his tone and rhythm, I can say without any doubt in my mind that he had no intention to offend when he threw out the "quiet them down" comment. Rather, it seemed to me like one of those good-natured pokes that are fun to throw in.

I'm not as familiar with Kurt as you are. I'm willing to admit that his post could have been read as kidding. That's not how I took it. But if that's what he meant, then I apologize for my reaction.

Side-by-side tests are the only real way to get at the truth, and they are hard to come by. The trick is to find someone like Kurt who thinks the same way and is also willing to do them for all of us. Now that's a time saver.

I agree with the first part of your statement, but I think you have to take it further than that. Not only are side-by-side tests the best way to get the truth, but you really have to do them yourself to get much benefit from them. Everyone has heard side-by-side comparisons of preamps, mic's, whatever, posted on the web or in sample CD's like the the 3D Audio one, and those can be somewhat amusing to listen to. But they really don't give you much of an idea of how something performs in practice. You're only hearing one particular source with one particualr mic placed in one particular way with the gain staging set in one particular way in one particular room on one particular song on one particular day. As soon as the variables start to change, the results can be hugely different.

I'd even go farther than saying that you have to do them yourself. To get a real feel for what a piece of equipment can do, you really have to use it in the context of a mix. Most people know that EQing a soloed instrument is not generally a great idea because it gives you no context. Same thing with trying something like a mic or mic pre solo. Something that might not sound the best solo may be the best once you get it into a mix.

I don't wanna bust your bubble but can we get back to the topic in hand? :roll:

Is there a big difference in sound quality between the Great River and the Sytek / RNP / Sebatron? I've read Kurt's review on the Great River MP-2NV and I've become quite fond of it but I'm not sure whether the sound quality justifies the price...

kostein wrote: I don't wanna bust your bubble but can we get back to the topic in hand?

Ahh, but we are on topic. The point is that no matter how many people express opinions here, you're ultimately only going to be left with certain rather vague information. A Sytek can't do what an MP-2NV can. In certain respects, an MP-2NV can't do what a Sytek can. They are both good pre's, but they're different. The MP-2NV is probably better suited to what you are doing. That much info can be gathered from opinions. Whether it is a big enough difference to make it worthwhile for you to spend the extra cash is a decision only you can make. For many people, the difference isn't big enough to justify. For others, it is big enough to justify. Which are you? How can we know? People can tell you "yes" or "no", but you'll only actually know by getting them side-by-side and trying them in a real-life situation. Can you rent or borrow the pair?

[

I've read Kurt's review on the Great River MP-2NV and I've become quite fond of it but I'm not sure whether the sound quality justifies the price...

Quite simpley it does. This is based on it's own merits and when compared to many other mic pre's that are in the same class/catagory.

True story. renting should do the trick. They are not cheap but if you rent them for the weekend and have ready a lot of stuff you want to record with them it should be worth your while...

Is there a big difference in sound quality between the Great River and the Sytek / RNP / Sebatron? I've read Kurt's review on the Great River MP-2NV and I've become quite fond of it but I'm not sure whether the sound quality justifies the price...

Yes there is. IMO, the Sytek and the RNP are both pretty much the same type of thing ... done in a different way but both claim to be transparent, :? ??? They are low voltage chip based products ... about the same thing as a Mackie type.

Sebatron is unique in the marketplace. This guy gets it ... he used transformers on the inzanoutz kick ass power supplies and a pure tube circuit with some nice eq lifts and cuts that are very useful in use. A sound all it's own but better than any other mid priced mic pre, again my opinion ... The Sebs are the only "affordable" pre I have personally come across that I like ... and they share the same feature list (sans impeadence switching) as the more expensive MP2NV.

I think the MP2NV is what you were asking for, according to your discriptions but a Sebatron 4000e is a great way to round out an input starved DAW with some affordable mic preamplification. .

The MP2NV is "worth it", at twice the price. The uses for this pre are endless ... Great on ribbons, great on condensers, dynamics sound incredible through it, it works wonders on digital keyboards and drum machines ... it's a guitar and bass di unsurpassed! You can warm up dry lifeless line signals with it by bringing them into the insert returns ... . It has line level outs for latency free monitor applications and inserts in the amp path ... If you can afford one you won't be sorry you bought it .... used ones hold their value very well ... they sell almost for what new ones go for.

Also worth mentioning is the JLM TMP8. Transformers, op amp style, factory preset (for your DAW inputs) peak limiters, in an 8 channel package. Because it has these peak limiters, you can really punch the pres hard ... and according to how hard it is driven, it has a sound like an API or Focusrite Red (Neve) types ... a little over $2100 for 8 channels.

Sounds like Nikko has stock in the Company (Sytek that is) or works there.

As I've said in other posts, I owned a Sytek and was unimpressed. I sold it after I bought some "real" mic pre's. It was pretty clean amp, but in no way comes close to my sebatron, UA or Langevin. I have also used a few different neves, Great River, John Hardy and a few other high-end units and the Sytek does not compare. It does work OK for some stuff and quite well at a few things but my Allen and Heath console works better in most situations the Sytek would be applicable to. And the Langevin is leaps ahead in most of the same situations. The Sytek really lacks in headroom and if used on the Majority of tracks for a project it can create a very "thin" mix. This is a common problem faced by Mackie users. I do have to say that the Syteks are a step above the Mackie pre's. Just not a big enough step to justify the price. If you are recording Metal (which I do a lot) I would strongly advise against the Sytek.

And I just have to comment on this Steve Albini thing. I have read hundreds of articles on recording gear and I can't count the times I've seen this guys name endorsing one low budget piece of gear or another. I would venture to guess that he makes quite a nice little supplementary income from endorsing all this stuff. Just because some big name endorses a product it doesn't mean it's any good. It just means that they get paid to endorse it.

well if you are recording mostly metal you probably want a preamp with more guts. A grace would not make you happy either. Syteks are very clean and good for "cleaner" genres such as classical, jazz, folk and pop. like everything else out there, everything has its optimum uses. I use sytek mostly on pop, jazz and broadway type tunes and its great for me. If I was to record metal i might even use an art op instead of a sytek- but that's the nature of the beast. when i record folk guitar i use the grace, but for pop/rock vocals I do like the sytek with the burr brown options and a tube mic in the front end. there is nothing wrong with the sytek in my book, in fact I think its great!

This thread now reminds me of an earlier RNP thread pro and con- but hey, if it works for you and its what you got, use it! I still have an art op in my rack but it does not get much use. I have a 8 ch yamaha mla7 and it gets a little ocassional use as an extra drum pre. I have 2 ch of 828 motu mkii and it does get use recording keys sometimes because it has convenient 1/4" inputs in the front panel and its easy to get to. but mostly as a scratch pad, I'll replacee those tracks with a mach Five soft synth later.

That's my opinion- everyone has one. that's what makes the world go around. However, I'm recording some tunes right now in the jazz/lounge style and I am using syteks and grace. I will post them in the near future and you can use your own ears to tell what results I got- until then- see ya!

tripnek wrote: Sounds like Nikko has stock in the Company (Sytek that is) or works there.

Because my opinion is different that yours and Kurt's?! What's with you people?! Is it not possible to express an opinion without so many people getting pissy and insulting? I don't even own a Sytek, much less have stock in the company. I do, however, have an opinion on them based on my experience with them. What's with people taking it as a personal insult when another person's opinion differs from their's?

In any event, it seems that kostein wanted someone to tell him unequivically how he should spend his money. Tripnek, AudioGaff and Kurt have done that. So, I think he has what he wanted.

I have a track in Digital performer of a little ditty I wrote that I've been using it to compare mics and preamps for my own use. So far I think I have a U87, nt1, oktava 319, groove tubes am11, RCA D77, sm58, seenheiser e85, (might be others) through several preamps, including rane ms1, grace 101, art tube op, yamaha mla7, motu 828mkii and probably some others. I know I haven't recorded the sytek or the rode K2 in this track yet but I am going to do that and post the mp3's in the vocal booth for comparison. I know is going to be some work involved, as I will have to separate the tracks and make mp3's out of them and there are probably close to 30 of them in combinations of mics and preamps so give me some time. I'll post them in a sticky in the vocal booth and then you guys can judge for yourselves. Also, I am in the LA area, Whittier is the place, so if any of you guys have some different mics or pres (studio projects, blue, sebatron, great River, etc, you name it) that you have and I don't and would like to see included, e mail me or pm me so we can set up a time when we can record them. This should be fun!

nikko wrote:

I don't care about what Albini said in regards to this...

That's fine. It's another opinion. You don't have to care. Nor do you have to care about my opinion or about Xavier's opinion. Nor do you have to care about e-cue's opinion (expressed on another thread). I know who e-cue is, and he probably has more hit records than all of us put together as well. But they are still all just opinions. They have been offered. It is open to everyone reading them to make what they will of them.

I don't think I understand. Are you implying I'm Steve Albini? Sometimes this internet thing is hard for a sleep deprived Apple-8 nazi (spent most of last night beat detectiving a live drum part into oblivion for a somewhat dance styletrack) like me to understand.

In reference to opinions... well... Audio forums are basically giant, international bathroom walls that any jackass can scribble whatever the hell they want on in the form of ones and zeros. A year or so back, I used to learn about different member's tastes in gear. If someone loved the API 560 on kick and the 550b on snare, I'd probably like the STC-8 on my 2 mix if they recommended it to me. If someone told me that ADAT's and RADAR sound better than Pro Tools HD to them, then I'd tend to lower the priority of checking out a Dangerous 2 Mix Summing device if they recommended it. I've been at R.O. a long time, and there was a time when I could predict with a decent success rate what other members throught about certain peices of gear. The terms "She's/He's a Neve guy" and "He's/She's an SSL guy" come to mind.

If anything, that means the opinion of the person that liked gear I disliked is probably more valid that the opinion of the person that shared gear interests with me. It wasn't personal. I still joke around with Slipperman about his Ameklove, as he does my DBX160XT love. I could rant about forums, gearpimps control over them, trolls, etc forever... it's the reason I stopped posting at Gearslutz which is still my favorite forum on the net. But it's not the time or place, and frankly, I don't expect the world to change for me.

maintiger wrote: True story. renting should do the trick. They are not cheap but if you rent them for the weekend and have ready a lot of stuff you want to record with them it should be worth your while...

Decent idea for most other pre's but it's not possible to find one for rent. I tried in LA and just bought one a long while back, mostly from a suggestion of an R.O. engineer that shared a parallel love for similar gear I was fond of. If you are in LA and want to check mine out, PM me and if things slow up, I'll try my best to let you check my units out, but I'm booked like a mofo.

Cedar Flat Fats wrote:

Is there a big difference in sound quality between the Great River and the Sytek / RNP / Sebatron? I've read Kurt's review on the Great River MP-2NV and I've become quite fond of it but I'm not sure whether the sound quality justifies the price...

Yes there is. IMO, the Sytek and the RNP are both pretty much the same type of thing ... done in a different way but both claim to be transparent, :? ??? They are low voltage chip based products ... about the same thing as a Mackie type.

Kurt, no offense but, ...

I'm at a loss of words for the ignorance in these statements. You could not, at least as a competent engineer, state that the Sytek and RNP are pretty much the same sonically, if you have ever used one. You also fail to mention the BB or J fet mod's which are pretty much a standard on the unit and they DEFINATELY sound different that the stock channels.

About the same as a Mackie? If you truly believe this, I hope the people that read this forum that have actually used the units in question take your statements into account for your furture credibility when talking about gear.

maintiger wrote: Also, I am in the LA area, Whittier is the place, so if any of you guys have some different mics or pres (studio projects, blue, sebatron, great River, etc, you name it) that you have and I don't and would like to see included, e mail me or pm me so we can set up a time when we can record them. This should be fun!

I own all sorts of different pres: Neve, Api, A Designs, Sytek, Manley, Neotek, Studio Technogies (with Audio Upgrades mod), Nightpro / Nti, Cranesong, and so on (and usually have access to a great deal more)... Again, PM me if you are in the area (wtf, do you have to pay to PM here or something now?) but that doesn't do the rest of the world justice...So, here's an example that is accessible to the rest of the world: I recorded Justin Timberlake on the track "Where's the Love?" with the Black Eyed Peas with a Blue Blueberry mic and the BB mod'ed channel of the Sytek. If you wouldn't be caught dead buying a record that "pop", check out George Pajon's "Fried Plantains". I used the Syteks on every drum track there- BB Mod's on OH's, and stock channels on snare, beater kick, and toms. The BB mod's (faster slew rate) have a much better detail on the transience of things, especially on things like cymbals where you can hear a distinct attack and tail of the vibrations. I'm a big neotek fan (own 4 racked Elan strips, 2 set of Mic Max's and 2 syteks) so if you hate Neotek, avoid the Sytek. They distort well if you overdrive them just like the Neotek console line. While that's more of an indie-rock feature, if you know proper gain structure, you should have no problems getting good results out of the unit. Besides, on OH's, I usually use ribbons or small diaphram condensors- neither of which have headroom problems with the sytek, not by a long shot.

Kurt, if you think that vocal track sounds like a mackie pre, then you are deaf.

go, cat, go

e-cue wrote:
Are you implying I'm Steve Albini?

No, I was just pointing out that there are several pro's doing top-notch work who like the Sytek and feel that it is significantly better than stuff like Mackie. I knew Albini did and I knew you did. I'm familiar wiith your work, but I didn't give your real name because I assumed that you might not appreciate that.

My point in "name dropping" was not that Albini and e-cue like the Sytek, and therefore kostein should buy a Sytek. It was that certain top-shelf pro's have different opinions than Kurt (i.e. it's not just a bunch of rank amatures who need to be "quieted down"). Because of that, Kurt's opinion shouldn't be taken as gospel - i.e. kostein is going to have to figure out for himself if he falls into the Kurt/tripnek camp or the Albini/e-cue camp.

Kurt, no offense but, ...

I'm at a loss of words for the ignorance in these statements. You could not, at least as a competent engineer, state that the Sytek and RNP are pretty much the same sonically, if you have ever used one. You also fail to mention the BB or J fet mod's which are pretty much a standard on the unit and they DEFIANTLY sound different than the stock channels.

E-Cue .. no offense taken and happy to see you posting here ... ,

I have heard both the Sytek's and RNP's ... but I admit never side by side. I never heard a Sytek with a Burr Brown chip or the J Fet mod as far as I know (what's the point?) ... but I still ask, if they are soooo freakin' transparent (as they claim to be) why / how can they sound different? Do the mods make them more accurate or less? That's the the part I don't buy ... transparent is transparent ... How do either stand up to a Millennia HV-3 or a Grace 202? If the Sytek is so good shouldn't it sound just like an HV-3 or an Grace 202? Shouldn't all the "colorless" offerings all sound the same if they are all so accurate? Well, they don't. That's why I don't go for the transparent thing ... all pre amps have a sonic signature, a transfer function.

Kurt, if you think that vocal track sounds like a mackie pre, then you are deaf.

No, I still hear pretty well for fifty ... I have to admit that i don't care much for Justin or Black Eyed Peas (although Where Is The Love is cool ... I like the message however, not the sonics), ... but I will ask, what other processing (eq's, console channels strips) was used along with the Syteks on that vocal? Even a Macke pre can be made to sound decent when you patch it into the insert return on a Neve or SSL console or run it through a great comp and EQ ... and I would like to point out that you have access to much more great outboard processing gear for tracking and mixing than most who rely on DAW plugs to do their processing. Also, you hit the nail on the head ... I do not care at all for any of the Neoteks ... I just don't think they "sound" good ... When I was purchased my console, I chose an older MCI 636 over a newer Neotek.

I imagine a person could do a production all with stock Sytek's, do another with a Mackie's and another with RNP's, ... in the end shuffle them up and it may be hard to tell which was which ... however if that same production were done with A Designs pres or perhaps MP2NV's, you sure could hear the difference between them!

I concede there are subtle differences between the cheap and mid level pres like the M Audio, ARTs, Mackie, Sytek and RNPs etc ad nausium ... but IMO still not enough to warrant a "which is better" debate or to make it a worthwhile endeavor to search out the best of them. I think they all sound thin and anemic, strident and harsh, leaving much to be desired. Perhaps Syteks are the best of the cheap but I doubt that they are the cheapest of the best.

If people want to spend their time searching out the best of the cheap stuff, so be it. Please don't expect me to endorse such a quest, nodding in approval or to stand by mute ... I don't get paid for any of this so I don't have to play ball with the manufacturers of "rack crap", helping to generating internet interest in what I view as prosumer tools. When these types of products are mentioned at RO, I will be here to share in my point of view. I hope the people that read this forum will take that into account, in regards to my credibility.

Can anyone who has bought a Sytek really say "That's it! I will never lust for another mic pre in my whole life!" ? Or do they still wish they could get a UA 2-610, a Manley or a Sebatron ??? Is there still a burning desire to have some great Neve knock offs like the MP2NV? Will they continue to write in asking, "How do I get that sound?"

In my dream rack a couple of MP2NV's and a couple VMP40000e's and a JLM TMP8 for good measure (now that's a great utility pre amp), along with my Millennia Origin (I could use a second STT-1 for stereo) would make happy forever ... because I don't think it gets any better than that. That is a true value, bang for the buck, ..spend your money ONCE, type of investment .. and I don't think if I had a rack like that I would be searching out "a great little utility preamp" like an RNP or a Sytek ...

Because I hire out my studio, I want to be sure I am offering potential clients the best gear available ...not some cheap "this months buzz" blinking lights type of rack crap thing. Perhaps this is why some people get their pants in a wad when their latest purchase gets a negative response from me and others? They see it as endangering their livelihood and as a slam of their taste in gear. Others take issue because they are entrenched into a "Good Ol' Boys" network, that exploits newbie ignorance, selling their associates "rack crap" offerings.

I know that I too (like you, E-Cue), make judgments according to what people say they like and what they purchase for themselves. I would never book a studio that was full of cheap gear, not only because the gear sucks but obviously the person making the purchasing decisions doesn't know which side is up ..

In the case where someone has a DAW with an audio card that only has line inputs, an affordable pre like a Mackie or a Sytek could be pressed into service. If all one were doing were song demos and recordings for family and friends, this kind of pre is fine ... But if you want to be a professional, getting pro results, then pro front end is in order. There is simply no way around this.

In the past fifteen years the audio world has seen major changes. The cost of DAWs have brought recording into the home arena and placed some very powerful tools into the hands of many. This is both good and bad. There are many people recording now that perhaps really shouldn't be, subjecting all who surround them with bad songs and performances but on the other hand there is that occasional talent that may have never had a chance otherwise, that now does. As far as mics compressors and pres go, we still need the great ones to get the good sounds into the box ... I hope that at least, never changes ... after all shouldn't there be something that seperates the adults from the kids?

In the interest of fairness, I thought you all would like to see this ...

Sytek MPX-4Aii 4 Channel Professional Mic Preamp

Your Price: $889.00/ea.
List Price: $1,678.00

The Sytek MPX-4Aii Four-Channel Microphone Preamplifier, finest in the world of professional audio. This is a custom model with the new Burr Brown IC in channels 3 and 4.

Description

With modern techniques, the MPX-4Aii's transformerless input design rivals and even surpasses the best transformer-input designs that were the standard in the industry earlier. This is especially true in low-level input applications to achieve extremely low noise floor, minimum distortion, wide bandwidth and linear phase response. This approach can be obtained a warm sound, crystal clear and fast response, getting a step closer to the human ear characteristics.

Each MPX-4Aii unit uses a Class A, auto-bias bridge configuration, hybrid input stage preamplifier based on hand-selected transistors for the lowest of noise, and the lowest possible base-spreading resistance and collaterally matched for perfect balance, and biased at the precise levels that make them maximally insensitive to thermal drift. As a result, no offset crowding occurs, and the dynamic range remains wide open. Because of the wide gain-bandwidth parameters of these specially-selected transistors, and the super-low impedance characteristics, and the vanishing circuit reactance, the impulse response is optimum, and phase-delay distortion undetectable. Gain adjustments are made with balanced differential-mode cancellation, preserving the excellent DC offset characteristics, without altering the loop feedback characteristics from their optimal configuration.

Controls

A premium quality gain control is followed by three rugged but nimble pushbutton controls for each of the MUTE, PHASE, and 48V (Phantom Power) functions.
The MUTE control allows the individual preamplifier section to be silently switched out of service.
The PHASE control allows the inversion of signal polarity.
The 48V control switches on phantom power, necessary when using condenser microphones.
Additionally, each preamplifier section has a Peak indicator, set at -8dB before clipping the signal output.

Burr-Brown op amps

The MPX-4Aii is available with Burr-Brown operational amplifiers in any or all channels. The Burr-Brown op amp is a high-quality amplifier that results in a warmer, tube-like response in contrast to the clean, ultra-fast response of our standard amp. We commonly ship a configuration with Burr-Brown op amps in channels 3 and 4.

Specifications

Preamplifier topology Transformerless Hybrid Design
Input Level nominal -60 to -10 dBm
Gain +65 dB range (ref. input)
Maximum output 24dBm loaded 600 ohms
E.I.Noise -134dBu (S.I.=50ohms) -129dBm(S.I.=150ohms)
THD+Noise 0.0015 % at 60dB gain (@ 1kHz)
Signal-to-Noise Ratio > 100 dBm
Bandwidth 10Hz-85 kHz +/- 0.25 dB
CMRR >100db at 100Hz
Phase Lin 10 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.1 deg
Phantom P.S. +48V at 10ma (we can customize this for you)
I/O connections Auto-sense balanced/unbalanced XLR

The MPX-4A uses matched transistors on the front end with 5532 IC's handeling gain changing and balancing tasks. For a time, the Burr-Brown option was replaced with the National Semiconductor LF357. The Burr-Brown option is available again as of July 2003.

Herein lies the rub as far as I am concerned. Dicreet transistors and topology on the front end is good but a compromise is made in the output stages with the use of IC's ... IC's can be inconsistant in performance. Anytime I see the word hybrid used, my ears pop up..

Cedar Flat Fats wrote: In the case where someone has a DAW with an audio card that only has line inputs, an affordable pre like a Mackie or a Sytek could be pressed into service. If all one were doing were song demos and recordings for family and friends, this kind of pre is fine ... But if you want to be a professional, getting pro results, then pro front end is in order. There is simply no way around this.

So, do you not consider e-cue to be a professional or to be getting "pro results" like you?

nikko,
Why don't you fight your own battles? It's interesting how you were all apologetic for misunderstanding my comments ..

"I'm not as familiar with Kurt as you are. I'm willing to admit that his post could have been read as kidding. That's not how I took it. But if that's what he meant, then I apologize for my reaction."

until E Cue showed up .... then you start to mouth off again. You have to go and drag E cue into this to stand up for you ... and now you attempt to put words in my mouth and to insinuate I said things I never said trying to start sh*t between us? .

Unlike many, I am relatively unimpressed with celebrity. I have met enough famous people that I have come to see them all as "just people" albeit accomplished. I am impressed with their achievements but not their opinions. E Cue falls into this category for me. Just because he happens to like something doesn't mean I do ...

I never said E Cue was not a pro ... the guy has made more real records than most, I assume and is still working in an industry that is shrinking by the day. This speaks volumes for his abilities and his people skills ... and he can write a damn fine review too! But I do not agree with his affection for the Neotek designs ... that's ok ... I don't revert to personal insults saying he can't hear or has bad taste or even accuse him of perhaps having an endorsement deal with certain companies.. ... I write it up to our liking different things.

I have conceded that Sytek pres can sound different than Mackies ... but I still think they are more "Mackie like" than "Neve like" ... and that's the point I have been getting at. The transformerless solid state pres are cheaper to make... Most solid state designs claim to be of the "transparent" type, because these types are less expensive and easier to execute. Yet there is all this debate as to which is better. If they are all colorless and transparent, then what is the hub-bub about? They should all sound alike, like nothing , straight wire with gain. But they don't ... and the better ones like Grace, Earthworks and Millennia's are heads and shoulders above the cheap "budget conscience" types.

Some of my favorite recordings I have ever made were done with Mackie and Yamaha MLA7 pres... and I still think in the greater picture that these pres leave a lot to be desired... but mixed on a good console they turned out pretty good. I think that has more to do with what was being recorded rather than what it was recorded with.

This is getting a little ridiculous. Of course Kurt did not call e-cue a non proffesional. I am sure syteks are proffesional enough to be used by pros all over the world many times over.
Heck, Roger Nichols endorses rane ms1 pres, says they are as good as neves and says he recorded a steely dan album (or was it a live show) with them. I've heard ms1's and in my book they suck- so what! If roger wants to use them whos gonna argue?
For chrisakes, if you got the chops you can record a song with the cheapest behringer or art pre and make it sound great!
I know for a fact that there are many platinum albums out there recorded on mackies. So what! Whatcha gonna do about it? Tell them to give their grammies back? Its about the song first and foremost, people.

I think we should refrain from personal stuff or name calling from now on in this thread so we can continue our discussions. Its great for so many people with real world experience to give their opinions. That's the value of this forum. But when it gets to the personal level it sucks. Lets keep it pro, please. :D

nikko wrote: [quote=e-cue]
Are you implying I'm Steve Albini?

No, I was just pointing out that there are several pro's doing top-notch work who like the Sytek and feel that it is significantly better than stuff like Mackie. I knew Albini did and I knew you did. I'm familiar wiith your work, but I didn't give your real name because I assumed that you might not appreciate that.

My point in "name dropping" was not that Albini and e-cue like the Sytek, and therefore kostein should buy a Sytek. It was that certain top-shelf pro's have different opinions than Kurt (i.e. it's not just a bunch of rank amatures who need to be "quieted down"). Because of that, Kurt's opinion shouldn't be taken as gospel - i.e. kostein is going to have to figure out for himself if he falls into the Kurt/tripnek camp or the Albini/e-cue camp.

Gotcha. It's sort of odd Albini and I both dig the Neotek stuff because our styles of engineering are completely different. I think most of the people around the forums know what Kurt Foster is about. You can take that as a good or bad statement.

Cedar Flat Fats wrote: E-Cue .. no offense taken and happy to see you posting here ... ,

I have heard both the Sytek's and RNP's ... but I admit never side by side.

I guess I misunderstood you earlier in this thread when you asked to barrow a unit. I'm not an RNP fan either. I bought one, tried it for about a month, thought it smeared the sound, so I gave it to my second for her birthday.

I never heard a Sytek with a Burr Brown chip or the J Fet mod as far as I know (what's the point?) ... but I still ask, if they are soooo freakin' transparent (as they claim to be) why / how can they sound different? Do the mods make them more accurate or less? That's the the part I don't buy ... transparent is transparent ... How do either stand up to a Millennia HV-3 or a Grace 202? If the Sytek is so good shouldn't it sound just like an HV-3 or an Grace 202? Shouldn't all the "colorless" offerings all sound the same if they are all so accurate? Well, they don't. That's why I don't go for the transparent thing ... all pre amps have a sonic signature, a transfer function.

Hmmm, you used the unit, but don't even know if you used the BB channels or not? That sounds very suspect Kurt. As a matter a fact, it deems your opinion of the sytek pretty much worthless at this point. Try a unit out for a week, assuming you book each day, and you'll change your tune. The 'point' of the BBmod as I understand it was to give the unit a faster slew rate which would make things like cymbals have more transience detail. Sometimes I need to deess with the BB mod'ed channels, but still get decent air on the top end. For whatever reason they did it, I prefer the BB mod'ed channels on most of the stuff I use them on. To answer your second question, their are plenty of more transparent pre's out there than the Sytek; the GML, the Earthworks, etc., but even they sound a little different from unit to unit. The thing is, it's not a transparent unit if your gain structure isn't set accordingly. I've got a matched pair of Earthworks mic's that sound like cling wrap through the BB channels as long as I don't crank the volume on them. With the stock channels, I've been known to crank the input so it drives and trim the output (I've been using an Atty for that lately). At any rate, I didn't get hung up on the "transparent" marketing. BTW, I don't see anything in those specs I have a problem with.

No, I still hear pretty well for fifty ... I have to admit that i don't care much for Justin or Black Eyed Peas (although Where Is The Love is cool ... I like the message however, not the sonics),

I respect that. Don't vote for me at this year's Tec awards.

... but I will ask, what other processing (eq's, console channels strips) was used along with the Syteks on that vocal?

When I cut the parts, I didn't use any compression. I could send you a version of the rough if you'd like. I didn't mix the track so I can't really answer your question. The George Pajon Jr. record, however, wasn't done with a budget that would allow a 2 month lockout at Glenwood Place studios. I was just trying to site real world examples for people not familiar with the pre.

Apparently you have to pay money to use the private messaging function here. Ridiculous. I have a tendency to take audio very serious sometimes. When I joined this site (I think I was like member 75?) I met a bunch of cool people. They've all jumped ship and this kinda stuff is the reason why.

This will be my last post here. If someone wants to try to catch up with me, look for me on the gearslutz chatroom.

Cedar Flat Fats wrote:
In the case where someone has a DAW with an audio card that only has line inputs, an affordable pre like a Mackie or a Sytek could be pressed into service. If all one were doing were song demos and recordings for family and friends, this kind of pre is fine ... But if you want to be a professional, getting pro results, then pro front end is in order. There is simply no way around this.

The pre is gonna be used with an RME Multiface going straight to my DAW. Will the Multiface limit the sound quality of high end pres like the Great River?

Btw this has turned into a very interesting thread 8-)

e-cue wrote: Hmmm, you used the unit, but don't even know if you used the BB channels or not? That sounds very suspect Kurt. As a matter a fact, it deems your opinion of the sytek pretty much worthless at this point.

e-cue,
The ones I used were in a Neotek console ... and I am not sure if they had been modded or not ... but I remember I didn't care much for them. I'm not saying they sounded horrible ..just lackluster. But that's my preference for huge, fat sounding pres showing itself. If as you say, the mods increase the hi freq response, I doubt that I would care for that ... it's exactly what I usually don't want ..that harsh hi freq peaky thing doesn't do it for me .. As I said, I would be willing to revisit them, give a listen and record comparisons but there isn't any studio in town that has them to my knowledge. I won't write and ask for them to review because I don't want to have to tell yet another manufacturer that I don't care for their offering and I don't have anything good to say about it.. I hate having to do that, it makes me most uncomfortable.

I may purchase a rack of them in the near future and listen / do a comparison .. and then return them if they really do suck. If I change my mind and decide I like them, I have room in my rack / patch bay for more channels of pres ... and I will come on to the forum and retract my previous comments. But don't hold your breath, you may turn blue and fall over (Help ... I've fallen and I can't get up).

In response to my comments regarding the sonics of the Black Eyed Peas record "Where Is The Love?" you responded..

e-cue wrote: I respect that. Don't vote for me at this year's Tec awards.

Please excuse me for mis-speaking ... the sonics are fine from what I hear on the MTV ... and I wasn't intending to disparaging your work in the least ... I love the way the low male vx and the higher female vx blend on the chorus's and the mix is super ... it's the whole genre' and the lo fi beat tracks that I dislike. Everytime I hear that rap snare kick combination everyone uses, "boof boof-phip, boof boof-phip" , I just want to murder someone .. (preferably a rapper).

... I did the whole rap "thing" in the late 80's, early 90's when I worked at a midi centric studio in the Oakland CA. vicinity, and we did a sh*tload of rap recordings. I just got super burnt on the overall genre' / lifestyle ... and it takes a lot for me to be impressed at all with anything like a rap record ... "Where Is The Love?" is actually one of my favorite rap style records that has been released lately.. but it's still not my cuppa' ...

e-cue wrote: Apparently you have to pay money to use the private messaging function here. Ridiculous. I have a tendency to take audio very serious sometimes. When I joined this site (I think I was like member 75?) I met a bunch of cool people. They've all jumped ship and this kinda stuff is the reason why.

I had nothing to do with the implementation of that policy ... you should discuss this with Chris .. I will say this, I think a lot of sites will move towards this type of thing eventually. People can't continue to support these types of forums out of pocket indefinitely. Even GS is running banners , something no one expected a year ago ..

When we load the site with banner ads, we get complaints about that. People don't even like them on sidebars ... I have to wonder what are we expected to do? How are we supposed to pay for new servers, (we own our own now, no waiting for upgrades or problem fix's) and software? (RO just purchased new software to upgrade from the old UBB style board). All this stuff ain't free folks!

There are great things coming in the future and really, all we are asking is a subscription fee that amounts to less than .06 cents a day ...

If private messaging is such a big issue to people (private messaging was eating up more than 10% of our bandwidth use off the top) and they want to support RO with the RO club fees, great. If not and they are just here to use what is free, great also ... But if they need a certain level of service (after all that's what Private Messages are, a service) then they should expect to pay for it ... Simple.

I disagree that user fees are the sole reason some members have "jumped ship" as you say ... I think a lot of it has to do with RO moderators and members no longer tolerating a lot of spam type hype about sub par prosumer equipment. Also for not allowing a lot of personal insults and flames, keeping the threads as civil as can be expected. RO is the only audio site that is "G rated" as far as I know .. and I like it that way. There are a lot of young people who read these threads.

Three years ago, most the topics on RO were in regards to less expensive prosumer gear. A lot of the "industry pros" that were here (some were even mods!) were gear pimps and manufacturers here schilling for themselves or their buddies who pump out what I term as "rack crap". The place was rife with industry insiders, gear pimps, their toadies, impressed with their celebrity ... and "Good Ole' Boy" cliques, all puffing each other up, patting each other on the back and publicly ridiculing / disparaging (soften using foul language) anyone who posed a threat to the "status quo" they had established, endangering their agenda to sell sub standard gear. One company was even proudly referring to the "buzz" about their mediocre products at RO, on their web site. It was a place where gear pimps and manufacturers were trading on the ignorance of newbies to ply their wares. The Buy and Sell forum was full of cheap gear for sale.

This type of thing continues at most other audio related sites but not at RO. It seems things have changed for the better now, I don't know why but I welcome it. Most our members "get it", understanding the requirements for great gear and realizing that mid level prosumer stuff is for the most part a waste of funds / energy, an exercise in futility. If you check out the "Buy and Sell", you will notice that it is almost all top of the line Pro gear that is now offered for sale.

So, if the price of this is the loss of a few "cool" people on the forum, I say, "so be it" ...

kostein wrote:
The pre is gonna be used with an RME Multiface going straight to my DAW. Will the Multiface limit the sound quality of high end pres like the Great River?

RME is a very reputable company that makes quality products. The only limiting factor might be if you run a +4 source into a -10 input .. if the card can accept a +4 signal, there should be no problem ..

I own the Sytek MPX-4aii and the Sebatron VMP-2000 VU. The Sebatron has many different colors and is more versatile, but the Sebatron cannot sound as transparent as the Sytek. I use the Sytek whenever I want a clean, 'un-colored' sound. It's great for drum overheads, acoustic guitar, and vocals. I usually use the Sebatron for electric guitar because it fattens things up a bit.

My friend recently compared the Sytek to the RNP. He got rid of the RNP and purchased the Sytek. I havn't used the RNP so I have no opinion there. I hear it's a bit noisier.