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boxcar 2 January 2011

Hi everyone,hope your year is starting on a positive note.
Mine? not so much yet,lol but I'm working on it.

I bought a new computer a month ago I-3 windows 7-64 and after being less than impressed compared to my old AMD athlon 350 XP, i returned it and decided to have one built by the people who built my 350.

So this time i got an an AMD phenom11 965 quad core windows 7-64 and it runs great for everything but my plugin count. As soon as i use more than 3 or 4 plugs the cpu overloads.
My old 350 runs 14 to 16 plugs stable.(xp32)
My old pentium 4 runs 10 to 12 plugs stable.(xp32)
I had about 20 plugs going on the I-3 64 bit but the CPU performance meter in nuendo was bouncing irratically.(didn't trust the look of it).
On xp 32, even when it's maxed out the meter is pretty stable and frankly the whole system seems to run smoother..
I've been dealing with this computer place a long time and we can change it all.The question is,what do i get?
xp-32 or 7-32 and is there any benefit to having 64 bit for audio?
I have nuendo 4 and all my plugs do work,i can record 16 simoultanious tracks if i want with the R-16 no problems and everything works great except if i load more than 4 plugs, the cpu gets erratic. I don't get it.
Am i missing something in the bios or other settings?

To anyone, what would you get/do? in my situation.
Is 32 bit going the way of the VCR or is it going to be around for awhile.
Thanks for reading.

Comments

audiokid Sun, 01/02/2011 - 14:41

I am 100% going win7 64 with lots of RAM.

I have been testing both XP pro 32 and Win7 64 bit for 6 months and Win7 64 with RAM is smoking. I am using a 2.40GHz AMD with win7 64 with 16 gig and it is even to an i7 on win XP 32. Win7 is just better.

I am upgrading the 965 i7 to win7 64 this month and adding 8 meg. It should be stellar.
My PC of choice is PCAudioLabs. Hands down worth using a pro builder like those guys over my experience with various custom built PC companies.. Ram and a well tuned machine makes a huge improvement. How much RAM are you running?

boxcar Sun, 01/02/2011 - 14:50

admin, post: 360317 wrote: I am 100% going win7 64 with lots of RAM.

I have been testing both XP pro 32 and Win7 64 bit for 6 months and Win7 64 with RAM is smoking. I am using a 2.3 AMD with win7 64 with 16 gig and it is even to an i7 on win XP 32. Win7 is just better.

I am upgrading the 965 i7 to win7 64 this month and adding 8 meg. It should be stellar.

I think the ram and a well tuned machine makes a huge improvement. How much RAM are you running?

I have 4 gigs in there now but i don't think the ram has anything to do with plug ins.Does it?
It's my understanding that plug in count depends on cpu.processing power.
Every other function i.e. track count/playback kicks butt.

audiokid Sun, 01/02/2011 - 15:10

but, be careful with certain plug-ins that aren't optimized for 64bit. As an example, my Emulator x3 software is plagued with 64bit. It still works but it causes freezing if I do certain things without closing certain things off.

IMHO. Everyone is going 64bit or die.

Sonar on the other hand with stock plug-ins... screams all day long.

RAM it up! 8 gig min, 16 nice. 32... can't imagine needing it yet but who knows.

boxcar Sun, 01/02/2011 - 15:17

audiokid, post: 360319 wrote: Hi Leo,

audiokid and admin, same guy different role:)

I'm no tech whiz but you are deprived with RAM now. 64 bit needs more ram and that's the beauty of win7 64. Once you get the RAM, the machine screams.

So ram does play a role in plugin count/operation then?
That might explain why the I-3 that i returned handled a higher plug count even though this AMD 965 quad is more powerfull as the I-3 had 8 gigs and this one has only 4.
Can someone confirm this cause the role ram plays in audio recording has always confused me.
If that's the case, i'll try more ram first..How much should i have?

EDIT: I wrote this before your last post.

audiokid Sun, 01/02/2011 - 16:17

Leo,

Wait for John to chime in here. But I would say you need more RAM and 8 Gig for certain. The OS takes up , what... 500 meg and you are only left with 3.5 gig. Add plugins and your DAW software ... she's starving.
If you are sticking with the system, I think 8 will be a big improvment and 16 will ROCK.
My 2.4 Quad AMD with 16 gig is great. I may be selling it as I have a few CP laying here unused and I am upgrading my ADDA path. You are only a day down the road from me. It would have been killer for you. Its a 4200 box that I may sell for $2000.

boxcar Sun, 01/02/2011 - 17:12

Yeah, im beginning to think there is something wrong with this computer somehow.
I put one ram stick in(2gigs) and it wasn't any different than when i have both sticks in(4gigs).
I mean 2 plugs crash the cpu..i.e TRacks3 pulse-tec eq or any other plugin for that matter.
Even with 4 gigs it should at least run 5 or 6 plugs minimum in a stable fashion.
The computer management monitor shows that im only using 22% or the phisical ram when the plug are crashing the processor, although it shows the 4 processors all running at different levels if that means anything.

The pentium 4 with 1 gig ram runs 14 of those plugs albeit maxed out but stable.
Weird...

TheJackAttack Sun, 01/02/2011 - 20:55

There are several factors that make up the efficiency and speed of a computer. Primarily there is the CPU speed, the speed and amount of the ram, and the routing ability of the memory controller. Now, additional things that influence "speed" for a DAW are of course the streamlining of services.msc and elimination of unneeded startup features. Hardware compatibility and how all the I/O connections are bused are crucial as well. For instance, many laptops have the Express Card, at least one USB port and the audio all on the same bus. In order to make all things work "well enough" the bus itself is choked back.

64 bit is the here and now of computers period but 32 bit will not be dead for a couple of years. You can see the prevalence of 64bit by simply stopping in at Best Buy, Office Depot/Max etc. The majority of cheap pc's are now 64bit as well. The advantages of 64bit have been pretty well documented but there can be some hitches. From an audio perspective the primary hitch is that to utilize ALL the ram available in 64bit operating systems the DAW program itself needs to be written in 64bit code. Then, all the plugins and VSTi instruments must be 64bit compatible. A 32 bit program (DAW or otherwise) running on a 64bit operating system still can only access 3GB ram. Now if you DAW program is 64bit and you've got 8gb of DDR3 you're screaming along and then whammo, you introduce a 32bit plugin that doesn't play nicely. That plug can only access the reduced amount of ram. To complicate matters, many plugins well known and otherwise are not actually written to complete compliance of the VST standards.

The best advice I can give is to ensure that you have updated all your plugins to the latest versions. Also, when you state you had a professional build your machine, did you mean a professional DAW builder? It's not the same as building non DAW or video editing machines. Well putting them together is the same, it's the streamlining and hardware compatibility that is at a much higher level.

Now, did the meter "bouncing erratically" affect your DAW? Or is the bouncing just visually bothering you? What is your DAW and is it a 64 bit version of same? Are your VST's 64 bit versions?

boxcar Sun, 01/02/2011 - 21:22

TheJackAttack, post: 360345 wrote: There are several factors that make up the efficiency and speed of a computer. Primarily there is the CPU speed, the speed and amount of the ram, and the routing ability of the memory controller. Now, additional things that influence "speed" for a DAW are of course the streamlining of services.msc and elimination of unneeded startup features. Hardware compatibility and how all the I/O connections are bused are crucial as well. For instance, many laptops have the Express Card, at least one USB port and the audio all on the same bus. In order to make all things work "well enough" the bus itself is choked back.

64 bit is the here and now of computers period but 32 bit will not be dead for a couple of years. You can see the prevalence of 64bit by simply stopping in at Best Buy, Office Depot/Max etc. The majority of cheap pc's are now 64bit as well. The advantages of 64bit have been pretty well documented but there can be some hitches. From an audio perspective the primary hitch is that to utilize ALL the ram available in 64bit operating systems the DAW program itself needs to be written in 64bit code. Then, all the plugins and VSTi instruments must be 64bit compatible. A 32 bit program (DAW or otherwise) running on a 64bit operating system still can only access 3GB ram. Now if you DAW program is 64bit and you've got 8gb of DDR3 you're screaming along and then whammo, you introduce a 32bit plugin that doesn't play nicely. That plug can only access the reduced amount of ram. To complicate matters, many plugins well known and otherwise are not actually written to complete compliance of the VST standards.

The best advice I can give is to ensure that you have updated all your plugins to the latest versions. Also, when you state you had a professional build your machine, did you mean a professional DAW builder? It's not the same as building non DAW or video editing machines. Well putting them together is the same, it's the streamlining and hardware compatibility that is at a much higher level.

Now, did the meter "bouncing erratically" affect your DAW? Or is the bouncing just visually bothering you? What is your DAW and is it a 64 bit version of same? Are your VST's 64 bit versions?

Yeah, it affects the daws(nuendo 4),by the 3rd or 4th plug,even the nuendo stock plugs wich are not high in cpu consumption, the meter clips the red and i get audio glitches on playback. It chokes.
AS far as i know, my app. and plugs seemed to run well in 64 bit. cause when i bought the I-3--7/64 last month, then returned it, the same setup seemed to run fine on that.(although i only had 3 days and did not have time to check everything).
The only thing i know for sure is it always run great in 32 bit xp.

audiokid Sun, 01/02/2011 - 22:09

That machine I have has three fans and an incredible looking power supply right off the bat. It looks like it was pieced together by doctors. I'm not sure all the components in it but I think its why it runs like a clock and cost 4 times that. I fear for you slightly but if it get you going without any troubles, what a great deal. Please keep us informed.

boxcar Sun, 01/02/2011 - 22:30

audiokid, post: 360359 wrote: That machine I have has three fans and an incredible looking power supply right off the bat. It looks like it was pieced together by doctors. I'm not sure all the components in it but I think its why it runs like a clock and cost 4 times that. I fear for you slightly but if it get you going without any troubles, what a great deal. Please keep us informed.

I wish i knew that a week ago. i don't want to pull my money out from them now that they started with this.
Funny thing is i only needed a step up from my old athlon 350 that they built for me 5 years ago but this is what it turned into.
I could have kept the old one and froze effects but i wanted the extra 10 plugin power.

Big K Mon, 01/03/2011 - 04:25

There is certainly something seriously wrong with the setup...
I know, I could run 70 tracks with 60 plugs ( native) on my old rig, Nuendo 1.5x / 2,4 GhZ singlecore Intel/Asus...
I, then, produced a feature movie in surround and llloots of editing and files and a .avi video in it.

I now run 3 PCs, each with Nuendo 5.1 on Win7/64 bit, 8 GB Ram i7-CPU / Asus / 3 x 1.5 TB HHDs.
I got bored when I did the track count test with the new system. I stopped at about 140, with 24 ontop recording with still acceptable latency....
All tracks had some plugs / EQs in it and the UADs / PoCores were smoldering with it.
I am no fan of RAID, so, that is about what the drives can safely put through. The CPU itself was not struggling, but was just somewhat busy...
I had Wavelab, Omnisphere / Vienna Symphony library / NI B4 running in the background.
It is just amazingly powerful. Yours should be capable of doing much much more.
Some nuendo forum members report that they were doing 500 + tracks + MIDI.. ( see other thread...lol)

boxcar Mon, 01/03/2011 - 07:28

Big K, post: 360382 wrote: There is certainly something seriously wrong with the setup...
I know, I could run 70 tracks with 60 plugs ( native) on my old rig, Nuendo 1.5x / 2,4 GhZ singlecore Intel/Asus...
I, then, produced a feature movie in surround and llloots of editing and files and a .avi video in it.

I now run 3 PCs, each with Nuendo 5.1 on Win7/64 bit, 8 GB Ram i7-CPU / Asus / 3 x 1.5 TB HHDs.
I got bored when I did the track count test with the new system. I stopped at about 140, with 24 ontop recording with still acceptable latency....
All tracks had some plugs / EQs in it and the UADs / PoCores were smoldering with it.
I am no fan of RAID, so, that is about what the drives can safely put through. The CPU itself was not struggling, but was just somewhat busy...
I had Wavelab, Omnisphere / Vienna Symphony library / NI B4 running in the background.
It is just amazingly powerful. Yours should be capable of doing much much more.
Some nuendo forum members report that they were doing 500 + tracks + MIDI.. ( see other thread...lol)

That's what i think too, were ckecking it today if they're open.
The funny thing is im sure this computer would run100+ tracks. My old 350 did..Tracking and playback are not affected.
It just faints at the sight of plugins.lol

JohnTodd Mon, 01/03/2011 - 09:18

Chime chime.

Sorry, just found this post.

I'm using Win7-64bit with 8 gigs of RAM. 8 gig really makes a big difference.
AMD Athlon II X4 Quad overclocked at 3.25 Ghz.

My mobo is an inexpensive Gigabyte GA-MA785GPMT-UD2H. I'm just using onboard audio and video because the boards meets HD specs. IOW, no A or V card to clutter the CPU more. Of course during recording I use my Firepod's sound. But I test mixes with onboard through my regular speakers.

OK, I'm rambling. The mobo I use isn't specifically spec'd for DAW work, but I used to be a Prof. of CompSci so I was able to read and understand the specs on a detailed level. It works great for me, but I record alone.

I find that latency adjustment makes a big deal. Too small a latency and any system can skip/crackle.

Yes, 32 bit is going away real soon now. Go 64 and enjoy the ride!

boxcar Mon, 01/03/2011 - 12:49

Hell ya,found the culprit.
It was a bad ram stick, we changed the ram this morning and i loaded 30 cpu intensive plugs and then gave up.
I can't imagine ever using more than 30 in addition to the outboard but even with 30 the cpu was at about 40%. and i will add another 4 gigs for a total of 8 tomorrow.

Thanks for all your imput,it kept me digging.....happy now.

boxcar Mon, 01/03/2011 - 19:55

[quote=Big K, post: 360416]If I may ask, ..what are those cpu-hungry little buggers?
Convolution reverb? Nah, nobody needs 30 reverbs in 1 project....lol...[/QUOTE

Well i have a few but i just ran 30 TRackS3 instances like the faichild comp, the pultech, limiter,EQ, there's 6 effects in the package.They sound pretty good and they use quite a bit of juice compared to regular plugins.I would never use that many but i wanted to make sure i had the computer i thought i bought.
I use hardware reverb.

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