any body want to share thier experience in getting killer, fat sounding kick drum?
Mic, pre, drum kit... analoque or digital? :p:
Comments
Among the best results I have had involve a well tuned drum, (mo
Among the best results I have had involve a well tuned drum, (most important) and two mics. I placed a sure beta 52 about 3" off center and about 4" away from the batter head, inside the drum. I then took a c-414 in hypercardioid pattern and aimed it right at the soundhole in the resonant head (bout 3" out, slightly off axis away from the beater). Play with the distance between mics rather than phase. Season to taste.
Agreed, bleed can be an issue. This is why I selected a mic wit
Agreed, bleed can be an issue. This is why I selected a mic with a hypercardioid pattern. Not enough bleed to worry about as the volume of the drum is way higher. Also you dont need to adjust the eq, really, unless you want to pull some highs out. The 52 is warm and it has a nice snap in this position. This setup lends itself to a very natural sounding kick with balls.
really depends on the project.. but i've used this setup for hip
really depends on the project.. but i've used this setup for hip hop and metal projects..
just another case of me overdoing it..
d112 in the hole..near the middle of the drum..angled between the beater and the the bottom corner (away from the snare)
421 on the hole
d30 on the front skin.
i bus all these to one track...get a monster kick..
Despite all the fancy, neat ideas behing these great kick sounds
Despite all the fancy, neat ideas behing these great kick sounds, simplicity is more economically feasable.(less time consuming.)
If you spend ten minutes with ANY mic, well suited to a kick drum, you can get a solid sound to work with. I like the beta 52. With demo stuff i use one mic on the kick. If you want snap move it closer to the batter head. If you want poof, move it away from the batter head.
Solo the kick and put on a headset. Take the phones into your drum room. You will not be dissapointed.
I never use more than one mic in a bass drum. but i also think g
I never use more than one mic in a bass drum. but i also think generally you get some bass drum sound into all the OTHER drum mics (especially room mics if you use them) which plays a big part in the final sound.
it's a drum KIT.
I usually end up with a moving blanket over the bass drum in an effort to control the amount of leakage into the rooms.
Inside the drum i use another blanket folded over with a heavy weight (a 30lbs sandbag works well) on it to hold it up against the head.
I use either an SM-7 or RE-20.
I never compress or gate.
I tend to put the mic just off center and about a third of the way inside the shell.. i like to angle it at the strike area rather than pointed straight at it.
Eq- I add bottom at 50 or 60Hz (sometimes an awful lot, depends), roll out (but not TOO much,4-5 dB tops) at somewhere between 350 and 500 Hz, and add some click at 1 kHz or so, sometimes 3k too.
I get a very good kick like this Audix D-4 3" off the head
I get a very good kick like this
Audix D-4 3" off the head inside angled slightly off center...this is the tick
ATM25 at the front of the drum also at an angle across the drum...This is the Boom
Mix to taste...no eq needed really...although for rockier stuff I'll add a bit of 3K to the tick mic....
Of course I only use ONE kick drum....If someone wants to use theirs then they go elsewhere...
Just kidding but most opt for this drum as it sounds great.....
If you are going to add anything with an eq, I suggest staying a
If you are going to add anything with an eq, I suggest staying away from a shelving eq on the low freq's. Use a parametric eq if you can.
Even better, move the mic around so you have a decent balance of tick and boom, and when you mix, PULL OUT the freq's you don't like.
This is better because if you add maybe 5db @ 80 hz you could be adding(just a guess)15-20db @ 20 hz. It depends on the eq curve. This sounds like sh!t on a system which will reproduce those freq's. Stay away from a boost. Go for the cut.
;)
I usually end up with a moving blanket over the bass drum in an
I usually end up with a moving blanket over the bass drum in an effort to control the amount of leakage into the rooms.
interesting..i'm kinda the other way..on top of the 3 mic technique i have above..i also do a similar kit mic that someone else mentioned (usually nuked through a fairchild to give some beautiful pumping and breathing and just there in the mix)
isn't it a big bob rock/randy staub trick to feed the low end of the kit (kick/floor toms) back through some bins into the room while tracking?
If the kick sounds nice and loud when soloed and lost when all t
If the kick sounds nice and loud when soloed and lost when all the drum channels are up, it's probably phase. If it sounds loud when soloed, loud when soloed with drums, but is lost inside the entire mix, it's probably masking.
One thing you could try EQ balancing. First, get a spectral analyzer and see if there's too much going on at 50-100Hz without the kick... this is usually where the kick sits in the mix. If there is, find the perpetrating track(s) and scoop out big lumps from there.
EQ the kick drum itself.. if there's not enough attack, boost 4kHz, maybe 1.5Q, or mic it in a different area (nearer to edge = more skin sound, generally). If there's not enough "oomph", boost somewhere between 50-100Hz (the exact freqs depend on the drum itself). Use peak, not shelf.
Cut out 400Hz.. this is the unwanted boxy sound that usually gets lost in the mix anyway and will allow you to bring up the volume of the kick a little. Don't overdo it. You might come back in a day and realize that your ears were deceiving you. ;)
Of course, the above comes from my meagre experience recording/mixing... it's just basically what *I* do. If anyone wants to rag me, correct me, etc, feel free to do so. I'm always open to teaching ;)
When compressing drums, I find thet the most handy controls are
When compressing drums, I find thet the most handy controls are attack and release. Any drum esp. snare has that initial attack of the stick before the real tone of the drum is heard. I usually set ratio anywhere from 2:1 to a max of 5:1, and increase the attack time until i can hear that nice snap. Release I generally set pretty fast, cuz if it is too slow you will run into the next note. Attack set usually between 20 and 50 ms, but rarely more than that. I usually set the threshold so that each stroke gets at least 3-5db of gain reduction. I like to gate drums really tight and then fill'em out with a little verb.
one more thing:
How well separated are the bass and drums? maybe a couple eq changes in each are needed. Pull out a little 160 in the kick (parametric), experiment with the bass, add some 250ish, or drop some 180 and under. A little bump at 800hz? Maybe you need more definition around the 2-4k mark?
Part of your problem might be the lower range of the instruments mushing things up on you.
As the guy behind the knobs it's also your job to clear space in the mix.
As a kid one time I held up a sheet of blank white paper in art class and said to my buddy, "look, a polar bear in a snowstorm!" I though it was pretty funny, even though I stole the joke from someone.
When I mix I think of a good painting, where your eyes are drawn to the subject instantly, and then you can look at it closer and see the setting in great detail. Colour, contrast, symmetry, balance.
With the tracks for paint, the eq's as a palette and the faders for brushes, our canvas is the speaker.
:D
Let me know how you made out! :tu:
Looks like this thread has been buried for a while, but I'll add
Looks like this thread has been buried for a while, but I'll add my little trick to the pile of advice...
I use one mic inside- D112 in my case, but if you do a good job tuning the drum almost any mic will work. I've gotten decent sounds out of an SM57 on the kick.
The other channel for kick is the fun part. Borrow the bass player's cabinet, set it in front of the kick, about 2 or 3 feet away, and plug it into the preamp. Microphones and speakers work the same way, so now your 4-10 bass cabinet has become a 4-pack of 10" diameter microphones.
Since they're the biggest diaphram mics on the set, they're tough to move. It filters out almost everything above 500Hz, so you probably won't need to gate it. Turn the preamp WAY down, tho- I usually set mine to -30db and control the gain by moving the speaker cabinet closer or farther from the kick drum.
So you have one channel for the 'balanced' kick sound, and one channel that makes the room shake. If you REALLY want some boom, copy the cabinet channel and pitch-shift it down an octave. Use VERY SPARINGLY tho... if that channel is loud enough to hear it's presence (as opposed to just noticing there's more thump) then it'll probably destroy the mix. This is one of those 'cookie jar' things that people may or may not notice, depending on their playback system, room acoustics, and how closely they listen. But it'll make the car shake while they drive...
Try it out. Your mileage may vary. It'll make the band think you're a psycho-genius if they haven't seen it before. And we all know how important that is....
See yaz!
Kase
The NS10 as the outside kick mic has been working for me. It's
The NS10 as the outside kick mic has been working for me.
It's deaf to hi freq's so you don't need a tunnel or blanket, and the bottom is way bigger and lower than any normal mic will do. Just the speaker itself...ditch the cabinet. It doesn't have to be an NS10 speaker...that's jsut what's usually available in many rooms. any woofer will do. Use another standard mic for the top.
Also...lots of people cut in the 200 - 400 range. My fav secret freq is 560. (found on 1081's and other three and four-band british eq's)... It just works really well. The ;lower freq's sound better in comparison to 560 solo'd...but in the end they take away (for me) too much "bottom" (what the kick is supposed to do). 560 get's rid of the box, and leaves it fatter.
So...NS10 on the outside (for me lower left quadrant), and the other mic just in the hole (if there is one) aiming towards the beater. A few db out of 560 for the mic. no eq on the ns10. ns10 is probably 10 to 15 db lower in relation to the mic. Very modern sounding, and fat.
...one more tool for the mental closet...
I have recently aquired a D6 kick drum mic from Audix.. I love i
I have recently aquired a D6 kick drum mic from Audix.. I love it. I posted a couple of audio clips on the Audio Streaming forum.. a D112 and the D6.. IMO the D6 wins hands down. I prefer to use as few mics as possible on any source. I think multi mic set ups usually don't sound as good as one well placed and chosen mic. Phase issues..
Originally posted by Kurt Foster: I have recently aquired a D6
Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
I have recently aquired a D6 kick drum mic from Audix.. I love it. I posted a couple of audio clips on the Audio Streaming forum.. a D112 and the D6.. IMO the D6 wins hands down. I prefer to use as few mics as possible on any source. I think multi mic set ups usually don't sound as good as one well placed and chosen mic. Phase issues..
I dig you with the phase issues...gotta be a jedi there...but if can use the force you get some super secret tones....
Howdy Along the lines of the intercom speaker in a box and RM
Howdy
Along the lines of the intercom speaker in a box and RM's NS10 as a kick mic idea comes [[url=http://[/URL]="http://namm.harmony…"]the Yamaha Subkick[/]="http://namm.harmony…"]the Yamaha Subkick[/] .
Originally posted by by: how exactly do you plug the bass amp
Originally posted by by:
how exactly do you plug the bass amp cab into the preamp input? do you have to rewire the stuff inside or can you use an instrument cord? [im' new to this technique...]
you you make a cable that's 1/4" male from the cab to xlr male to the pre. Wire the Tip of the 1/4" to pin 2 of the xlr. Wire the sheild of the 1/4" male to pins 1 & 3 of the xlr male. Plug into Mic Pre.
Originally posted by Nate Tschetter: Howdy Along the lines
Originally posted by Nate Tschetter:
HowdyAlong the lines of the intercom speaker in a box and RM's NS10 as a kick mic idea comes [[url=http://[/URL]="http://namm.harmony…"]the Yamaha Subkick[/]="http://namm.harmony…"]the Yamaha Subkick[/] .
DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
gotta check it out. Just when I do not want to spend money on gear is there something that isn't a million dollars that'll naw a hole in my brain till i get one (IF it's better sounding than jsut usin' an ns10 speaker)....thanks for the info Nate.
Originally posted by RecorderMan: Originally posted by Nate T
Originally posted by RecorderMan:
Originally posted by Nate Tschetter:
HowdyAlong the lines of the intercom speaker in a box and RM's NS10 as a kick mic idea comes [[url=http://[/URL]="http://namm.harmony…"]the Yamaha Subkick[/]="http://namm.harmony…"]the Yamaha Subkick[/] .
DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
gotta check it out. Just when I do not want to spend money on gear is there something that isn't a million dollars that'll naw a hole in my brain till i get one (IF it's better sounding than jsut usin' an ns10 speaker)....thanks for the info Nate. Then again...just a freeloating NS10 woofer is probably better. After all...when do they laod a mic daiphram with an enclosure? My guess is that to make this design fly they had to put something around the speaker that makes it more valuable...otherwise we buy naked ns10 wooofers. And the fact that it's a drum...that was some marketing guys Idea...couple that with the input from the v-drum guy for that material...
...I'm going to go check ns10 woofer prices....
Originally posted by RecorderMan: Also...lots of people cut in
Originally posted by RecorderMan:
Also...lots of people cut in the 200 - 400 range. My fav secret freq is 560. (found on 1081's and other three and four-band british eq's)... It just works really well. The ;lower freq's sound better in comparison to 560 solo'd...but in the end they take away (for me) too much "bottom" (what the kick is supposed to do). 560 get's rid of the box, and leaves it fatter.
Very very interesting... must try the woofer + 560-cut mic approach. I like that the ns10 gets the sub freq naturally so you don't have to boost subs on the kick mic. Out of curiousity where do you typically find your Q setting on the 560-cut?
Originally posted by Bobby Loux: Recorderman, how exactly a
Originally posted by Bobby Loux:
Recorderman,how exactly are you mounting the ns10 speaker (without the enclosure)..do you rig it up on some type of stand?
thanks
I'm going to work on a better version of it next week when I pick up a woofer..but what I did lastime, was I had two loops of string. Each end of the strings going to one of the mounting holes in the frame. The loop for the TOP has to be shorter thatn the loop for the bottom. I then hung it from the end of a normal kick mic stand, and fanagled the strings so that it hung verticly where I wanted it.
Michael Wagener over at GearSlutz has sime picts od a rig he built.
Probaly what I'm going to do is a way I heard about...and that' to fit onto the frame a mic clip (don't know how yet...I deal with that when I have a speaker
Well I recently had a d112 behind a closed skin head (no hole, j
Well I recently had a d112 behind a closed skin head (no hole, jazz style kit) I wasn't thinking, I guess, and didn't put another mic on the beater side so I ended up with a "bump" sounding recording, which wasn't what the band wanted. So, being a cheap punk teenager, I found a great sample and replaced each kick hit, careful not to adjust velocities too realistically to the poor drummers wacky performance, and the band loved it. True Story believe it or not.