man, where are the guys from this forum?????

Sorry for the delayed response. Couple things: This is difficult for me to answer or make suggestions because when I do these types of sessions, they usually allocate a budget large enough to rent more appropriate gear (C-12, 47 Fets, U87s, U-47 tubes, B&K's, D50's earthworks, etc) for the task at hand.
That being said, I'd go a little bit of a different route:
2 (many more) EMC 8000's (around $35 NEW!!!)
Either 2 B2's or 4 B1's (B2's are about $200, B1's are about $100 each)
2 Crown PZM sound grabbers ($75 or so each)

The reason I say this is, the 8000's are like omni rip off's of the earthworks mics. The B2's are like U87 rip offs. The B1's are too, only they are cardiod only. The B2's would be a better investment as they are multipattern, and sound much closer to the 87 than the Node stuff IMHO. Use the B1/B2's over the conductor. Flat, no pad, card. Take the ECM8000's and use them like room mics, walk around on the outside parameter about ten feet or so back and listen for the sweet spot. Check this against the B1/B2's religiously. (a phase clicker is a life saver in these situations, but if you must, blast a boombox in the middle of the pit and check it before the group shows up) Now, get a ladder and with the boombox playing, listen up against the wall toward the front of the room, and try to find the spot where it sounds like the sound is bouncing off the wall. Tape the PZM mic there. If you can't do this because of the dimensions of your room, move some gobo's (the one with the hardest surface you have) to the front of the room, again using to head to listen for the spot where it sounds like the sound is bouncing off of the gobos. This should sound really good if your phase relationship is correct as a starting point. Keep extra AAA batteries on hand... the PZM's gobble them up like a mofo.

The rest of you mic'ing really, really depends on the song arrangement and players, but generally I'd say:
2 AT 4050 : Strings or Trumpet
2 C3000B : Flutes/ Pic or Trombone
2 C2000B : French Horns or Flugle Horn
2 C418 : Sax or clarinet
1 SM91 : Mono Flute
2 BETA57, 1 BETA58, 1 SM58 : Individually mic tuba / basses

I MUST have a list of the exact instruments I'm using before at least a day before I start. Try to get a copy of the score, or at least talk to the conductor to figure out if there are any solos/strong parts, etc. These sessions take a lot of planning to properly be exucuted.

And I agree, it isn't as popular here as it used to be.

thanks a lot e-cue. Many mics you mention here I have never hear before. In fact, it is a budget project, so what can I do...

I have recorded 4 cds of small orchestras, sound good, one of them has a big succes but now I am quite worried about extreme leakage and phase due to lots of trumpets, etc.

If possible, I would like to send you a sketch of the band. It is a kind of celebration for the cnductors 20+ years of dedication to this independent group. Lots of leads at every song.
The project will be recorded at an old theater, wood in the floor as well as in the ceiling, concrete walls, not so bad place like the ones I had to do the Camerata.

Today, I talked to the nice conductor and there shall be up to 23 voices. I don´t know how to translate evry name of it, but it is a mix of Horn Band with an Army (??) set:

a)Drums:
Snare
Cymbals
Surdo
Bombo

b)Sax section:
alto
soprano
tenor (2 voices)
baritone

c)woodwinds
flute (3 voices)
flautim
clarone
clarinet (3 voices)

d)other horns
trumpet (2 voices)
trompa
bombardão
bombardino
baritone

so.. what are your suggestions? Iam willing to buy 3 more condensers like the AT4040. what are your suggestions?

Some guys on the other forum told me to stick with themain stereo scheme over the conductor´s head with the 2 AT4050´s and add some spot mics to the softer sections.

But I am afraid to deal with the different leads. Of course I am planning before hand and will have a description of every song so as to tweak or alter mic placement .

Hope to hear from you again my friend! and many thanks for all your attention!
Alécio
Brazil
:p

Originally posted by e-cue:
And I agree, it isn't as popular here as it used to be.

A fine answer e-cue.
btw: relax out there...I've been woking hard the last week (with the flu in the middle...although i didn't stop) AND my internet is at my office, so I can't do this just before bed, ect.

Originally posted by RecorderMan:

Originally posted by e-cue:
And I agree, it isn't as popular here as it used to be.

A fine answer e-cue.
btw: relax out there...I've been woking hard the last week (with the flu in the middle...although i didn't stop) AND my internet is at my office, so I can't do this just before bed, ect.I sincerely hope you get better.

Alécio, the MP3 you sent me sounds wonderful. The main thing I think you should consentrate on is your stereo imageing. The depth is there, I just believe that you could get a little more space during the more dynamic parts of the song. I'd also like sound more rides, esspecially on the low end. The front instruments have much more definition, so try raising your mics by the conductor a little bit more if possible. Some D50's would kick ass on the bass, but I think 4050's should do the trick if you are on a budget.

IMO, with that many pieces in the ensemble I would also opt to do a decca tree or some other mic over the conductor type of thing. Individualy micing everything could turn into a nightmare. If your concerned about missing parts or sections you can add some hyper cardioid or cardioid spot mics, making sure the spots are in phase with the overheads and running them to their own track. Don't add too many spots and make sure everything is in phase with the main mics and each added spot. This approach requres a good sounding room with at least 14 feet high ceilings. You can add some ambience mics if you wish running them to the stereo channels or to their own tracks. I have found these kinds of projects to be the most fun to do. Have a blast! Fats

thanks e-cue. In fact, the Camerata CD is already edited and mixed. Monday I have to start the mastering process... also on a budget. Not the best equipment but gifted years on here, so let us see if it will become a new cucces like their previous CD...

I will be using PT 5.1.1 mix, with Q10, Power dither and TC MAster X. Oka, you all can crucify me now but it has to be done.
e-cue, do you have any suggestions like HPF´s, high mid definition, expand or not.
The conductor complains a little - he wants more reverb, but then things will become too washed, buried, far from the listener.

Many thanks for all your input. In other forums I did not receive so good info!!!!

but what about this new challenge, this Horn band?

Main stereo pair with AT4050´s over the conductor and some spots at weaker sessions? I am afaraid of losing some leads on each different sections of the 14 songs.

comments?

e-cue.. what do you mean with the sentence:
....like sound more rides... ?
I did not understand this expression!
hehehe sorry!!!!!!

Cedar flats... among the list I put on the post.. which mics would you advice me and in which instruments? clarinetes? tubas? flutes?

trumpets, sax are quite spl....

thanks again! :w:

Rides: Fader rides, rises in levels to accentuate, or highlight a certain section. Especially on the Bass... Listen to the song down, and ask yourself "Did I think about the bass while listening?". Do this for each instrument. Try to let each instrument have one part of the 'conversation' so to speak. (no pun intended)

As far as verb. Those damn conductors love that crap. They also love their string instruments to play way behind the beat. I'm not sure what gear you have access to, but I would suggest the 480L Hall, or some type of Dark Chamber with at least a 60 MS predelay. This will help your verb from getting too washy.

The List E Cue provided was about as good of a mic allocation as you can get with what youv'e got. I would look to purchase 3 large diaphram condensers capable of mono pattern.
You need these for the main room Decca trees. I stress you should only spot mic a few things. If you have more than 8 or 10 inputs its a real problem. Put some mics up and listen a move them around until you achive the best overall balance. Fats

thanks to my friend´s Cedar and e-cue!!!!!
The EFX I used with the Camerata Project you listend on the small sample mp3:

02R : Hall 2.3 sec
Plate 1.3 sec
01V: Hall 3.2 sec
hall 3.2 sec with bigger pre-delay
MPX1: Carneggie hall simuation Algorithm Preset
TSR12: long hall ( with very loww return)

It is a budget project with a satisfactory equipment.; done entirely with PT 5.1.1, G4 800, 23GB disk space attached to one ADAT bridge going semi direct uted to the 02R.
Monitors: Monitor Ones - Alesis

e-cue: we did fade rides during the automixes of every song. Maybe they were not enought ( for yous taste). The conductor and the producer were giving me the points. I am the recording enginner/mising mastering and a kind of "co-producer". However, the whole arrangement is in their heads!!hehe
_________________________________________________

Cedar.... I ave been thinking of 2 AT4050´s at cardioid pattern over the conductor´s head for this new project of the horn band). Spaced omnis shall pick up too much room!!

My doubt now is...
Which mics should spot which instruments? the percussion set certaibnly I will pck up.

among the mics I mentioned above, I wanna buy three more. Will I be oka with 3 At4040´s?
or any other model?

Many thanks!!!!
Nice saturday!!!
studidp@terra.com.br

All of the Audio Technica mic line is useable stuff. I have a pair of 4033's and I've found them very versitile. I would at least check out what it sounds like with 3 mono large diaphram mics (Decca Tree) before rejecting the idea. You might be surprised. The venue you described sounds like it would be perfect for this technique. Fats

Originally posted by e-cue:
And I agree, it isn't as popular here as it used to be.

Yes, and who is going to do something about it? We are the ones who can do that right?

It seems to me this forum is in a downward spiral. The last post on Harvey's board was on juli 31! And Harv is such a great guy :tu:

I have to thank a lot for the nice cooments and suggestions of my friends on here, much more than in other forums with hundred people but I wished the traffic was more intense. I always select the topics of the last 5 days and I see no much news.
let us promote this place on a better way to other guys?

Thanks Cedar, e-cue.

BTW... Cedar, what is your main job? studio?

Nice sunday!

Hi everyone, I've been watching this thread and I'm sure glad to see these replies here! I definitely screwed up by putting the user fee on the forum, I regret that for sure. I was in a desperate situation, it saved our ass (thank you to all the supporters) we have our own server now but in doing so it kicked us down a few notches with ratings during my hard times. We are gaining again though :) and having bro's like you is great to see. RO is here for the long haul. Maybe we should do a gear giveaway or something. If anyone has any ideas let me know.
Cheers!

Hi Chris, how's life treating you?

This board used to be a great place a while ago, no trolling, flames or whatever.

I sinceraly hope it will gain it's popularity again, but I'm afraid that needs some time.

Whish you all the best bro!!

My main job has been music all my life. In the past several years I have owned and engineered at my own 2000 sq foot comercial studio in the SF Bay Area where I was fortunate enough to record with some major recording artists. I sold out a year and a half ago and now am semi retired. I own the coolest DAW home studio in the neighborhood and I am still active in artist and song development and marketing. Fats

thanks Cedar, I will visit you someday as well as some nice folks I have developed true friendship in other forums like Brad, Ronny, steve and so!!
:)

But semi retired man? already? sorry for asking...?
age?
me 32

it is great to have advices from people like you all! I have very much to learn and I am willing to learn. I imagine I am one of the few brazilian guys on here, specially at this time of night!!
Nice tuesday!

I always print and/or save the nice advices I read on the forums. However I do not know why the text width on these pages are bigger than a regular sheet of paper! I have tried A4, envelope, etc. Maybe condense or export to word..

Have you guys noticed this?

I am finishing the mastering of the Camerata project which I sent some samples to my friends on the forum (s).

Nice thursday to everybody! :w:

have you guys used the Groove Tubes? I have just bought one GT55 last week and I am fixing a third At4050 so as to use on the Horn Band Project by december.

It will be a main stereo pair with 2 At4050s, individual spot mics on a 4 people percussion part, 2 C3000B´s for the saxes, and some other for the trumpets, trompas, bombardinos, flutes just for emergency.

anyone else´s ideas are wellcome!
:)

???????????

e-cue, Cedar, Nika:
shall I send you a sketch of the horn band recording?
I will be doing it by October 31st.
Many thanks in advance!

Alécio Costa -Brazil,
After I got the private message I went back and re-read the whole thread again with the new posts. It sounds like you have a good start on the project as far as assembeling the mics you need and planning the set up. I will be looking for the sketch. As far as printing the pages, I go through them and highlight them, and do a copy save in File. Open a word document and paste. They come out spaced weird so I edit them before printing. You can save as a word doucument then or email to a friend..... oh, this is in Windows. And you asked about my age re; being semi retired.... I'm 49.......Fats

too young to be emiretired!!!
Oka, shall call you my bigger brother!!!
Many thanks for all your attention my friend!
I imagine your time is very precious and quite busy too!
when possible I will send you an mp3 file that some great guys on here also listened too, like Joe St, Brad B., Ronny M, and Joe. :)
studiodp@terra.com.br
:w:

A.C.B.,
Too young to retire, too old to work. I can't hear much over 20k anymore. The audioligist calls it PCMitis. Not really that busy. I've been building a new computer. Mow the field, wash the cars, cut tracks with friends for fun. Sometimes I go out back in the maple patch and shoot my shotgun just to let the neighbors know I have it.... A-ha ha hah...... Fats :D :D

Hey A.C.B...,
I sent you some stuff re; Decca Tree micing on your email. Let me know if you didn't get it and I'll try to resend it.....Fats :D

Originally posted by Cedar Flat Fats:
I can't hear much over 20k anymore. The audioligist calls it PCMitis. :D

LOL that's great!
:c:

wow! Many thanks friend! You are one of the greatest guys I have talked to on the forum era!!

I hope your little hearing problem gets away!

I have also sent you some emails with some pictures of my place, CD!!!!!
iN THE email I again ask you for some opinion of yours concerning the modest rig available. I am a por guy with some talent!

Thanks!

just to be sure and not disturb you too much:
did you get my emails?
Thanks again!
Nice weekend!

ACB,
Yes I got the emails although for some reason I was unable to open the pics, oh well, if you like you can try again. You are NOT bothering me. I look forward to all coms from you....Best of it all....Fats

Great Cedar! I will send the pics again!
Many thanks!
You are a nice friend!

hey Cedar, how are you? what is up there? My horn band section starts next week. Let us see what happens!
:)

ACB,
Ola me amigo! Well it won't be long now will it? Have you had a chance to have a rehearsal yet and if you have, how did it go? You know this conductor and you already have an idea how it's going to be at mix. If you think he is going to be as demanding as you said earlier about being able to bring up certain sections at different points of the performance, perhaps the approach you have decided on is appropriate. I still think a talented conductor would rather hear in playback, as close a representation of the performance as possible. That is what the "Decca Tree" is all about. If the orchestra and the conductor are doing their jobs correctly the dynamics should be in the performance. Then your job should be to capture it as elegantly and accurately as possible. Just some last minute thoughts…….Fats

Hi Cedar! Nice to hear from you again!
I will decide things there at the last moment, prior to their last rehearsal!

You are completly right!
:)
How is the weather? what have you been doing lately?

I would like to see some pictures!!

do this..
Audiowkstation@msn.com

Hi Bill! Nice to hear it from you!
I am sending you some stuff!
Thanks My friend!
Alécio
:)

Hi Cedar! Were you able to open the newspaper article ?

Nice weekend my friend!
Alécio
:)
:w:

Hi Alécio:
You aren't the only brazilian people in this forum. I'm not posting but only reading, because this thread is about a large recording, impossible in my little Home Studio.
But as we ever can to extract lessons in this thread type, I read and listen to the topics wich are more related to my work type.
Good luck in your large recording project and have a brazilian friend in Itajaí, Santa Catarina, Brazil.

Hi Juca! It is great to see you on here!
I don´t know if you already knew me, but my studio is in Florianópolis. I have produced /played/ recorded FARAWAY, HOMEM TRIBAL, BETO DUNKER, CAMERATA FPOLIS, ANNITA PETRY, SUBZERO, UMBIGO DE BALEIA, REGINA DUARTE, KROLL, MAYK/REY, MR2, ATRITO CONSTANTE. as well as my own album, hoping to release it at early 2003.
Some artists have just signed with Paradox, Atração.
If you buy JORNAL (NEWSPAPER) A NOTÍCIA you shall see a small note about a nice short movie.

You shall contact me via emai either, which is studiodp@terra.com.br

Nice weekend