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anonymous 3 July 2009

Hello,

I have been playing several woodwind instruments for a few years now and I have become increasingly interested in recording them to my computer, the idea of recording multiple parts and putting it all together fascinates me the problem is I don't have a microphone that will do it justice (currently using a desktop pc mic which sounds terrible) I'd love to get a better mic that captured the sound of my instruments with less noise. I don't want to buy anything expensive as this may be an interest that could only last a few months and if that's not the case then I will invest in a more expensive microphone,

Could you recommend a microphone I could use with my PC to get the best sound possible for between 50 to 100 Euro

Thanks for you help.
Dave.

Comments

Codemonkey Fri, 07/03/2009 - 18:02

I guess the simplest way is to get a USB mic. Samson make a few, along with others.

Or you could make a foolproof investment that you're guaranteed to want to keep, or if you don't wanna get knee-deep in recording, you could probably sell for the bulk of the price:
1 x SM58
1 x USB powered interface with 1 preamp.

(or, 1 USB mic with a view to get the SM58 if you decide to stick with it)

Software? Audacity or Kristal
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
http://www.kreatives.org/kristal/

jammster Fri, 07/03/2009 - 18:21

Remember that you not only have to get a microphone but you also have to amplify it.

Mic + Preamp = sound

Then you have to take your source signal (sound) and convert it to digital so that your computer can play them.

Then you must consider which software you will use to multitrack with your pc.

So, there is more that meets the eye. If you are on that tight a budget then you will have to consider your options.

Codemonkey's suggestion of a USB mic could be an option.

Just keep in mind that USB devices are typically slower than that of a firewire device and introduce latency due to the buffer needed for data to stream into the computer.

For example, after you have recorded a track and are listening to it while recording the second you will notice a delay from when you play your instrument to when you hear it in your headphones.

Also the preamp in USB mics is usually lacking in musicality. There may be good USB mics out there, I have no experience with them. Any professional would try to convince you to spend the money on the wise investment, that is a good preamp which is not cheap.

I do know that emu makes a USB device that is very good and has had many positive comments on the forum:

http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?product=15185

Check it out, I hope you have lots of fun!

jg49 Fri, 07/03/2009 - 18:46

If you want an inexpensive way to record simply and be able to upload to a computer you could consider using any of the small recorders like the zoom.
http://www.audiolines.com/product.php?productid=69278
This has four track capability, decent (not great) built in mics, will accept external mics, uploads easily to computer, comes with Cubase LE (an excellent software program.) With the addition of a set of headphones you could escape the latency issue while overtracking. I don't know what the exchange rate is but these are $200-250 US.
There are other similar products Tascam, Marantz, etc. The Zoom is the only one I have had first hand experience with. My other thought is that these units are good for field recording, live gigs, concerts, practices, etc. due to their small size they can go anywhere. If you decide to jump in the pool with recording whole hog, mics, preamps, interfaces, this type of device would still be handy.

anonymous Sat, 07/04/2009 - 03:45

This E-MU 0404 look interesting, I saw that It comes as a PCI card too with all the interfaces coming off the card, If I were to buy this would an XLR interface mic work correctly. I've read that some mic's need "phantom power" Will the 0404 provide this?

This is the E-MU 0404 as a PCI card http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?product=10447

Thanks for your suggestions

P.S. This morning I found the mic to a Olympus digital voice recorder, its giving me a better sound that my desktop mic and now I'm hungry for better sound. I would love to be able to hear the key work of my flute move as I played.....

anonymous Sat, 07/04/2009 - 03:51

Codemonkey wrote: I guess the simplest way is to get a USB mic. Samson make a few, along with others.

Or you could make a foolproof investment that you're guaranteed to want to keep, or if you don't wanna get knee-deep in recording, you could probably sell for the bulk of the price:
1 x SM58
1 x USB powered interface with 1 preamp.

(or, 1 USB mic with a view to get the SM58 if you decide to stick with it)

Software? Audacity or Kristal
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
http://www.kreatives.org/kristal/

I am using mixcraft 4.5 and I really like it, I am currently on a 15 day trial. The SM58 is $99 on pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com and the 0404 PCI is also $99, If I had the two of these devices I imagine I would get fairly nice sound quality.... I just need to find $198 now...... (this has turned out to be a much more expensive investment that I first imagined)

jg49 Sat, 07/04/2009 - 04:16

The 0404 does not supply phantom power, so you would not be able to use a condenser mic. It will not accept USB input directly, your computer would but the latency issue would still likely be a problem.
If you want to have phantom power (condensers require this) then you probably do need an interface like this
http://www.zzounds.com/item--TASUS122L
So for about $30.00 more you have more options. All of these interfaces come with some type of software free, so if you are considering buying Mixcraft you may want to wait until you purchase whatever your final choice is.

jammster Sat, 07/04/2009 - 07:27

jg49 wrote: The 0404 does not supply phantom power

jg I think you got it mixed up a bit, remember 0404 does not power through the USB cable, you have to use its power supply to power it. 0404 does clearly have phantom power. No worries about condensers, just laptops where you want a self powered device.

I think all the positive [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.amazon.c…"]feedback[/]="http://www.amazon.c…"]feedback[/] on the 0404 does make it one of the best interfaces for the money.

anonymous Sat, 07/04/2009 - 07:53

jammster wrote: [quote=jg49]The 0404 does not supply phantom power

jg I think you got it mixed up a bit, remember 0404 does not power through the USB cable, you have to use its power supply to power it. 0404 does clearly have phantom power. No worries about condensers, just laptops where you want a self powered device.

I think all the positive [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.amazon.c…"]feedback[/]="http://www.amazon.c…"]feedback[/] on the 0404 does make it one of the best interfaces for the money.

Are you talking about the 0404 USB or 0404 PCI? the 0404 USB is $200 ouch.

anonymous Sat, 07/04/2009 - 08:18

davidpower wrote: As much as I'd like to record my own music I think I'll have to wait, all this equipment is starting to cost allot.

Ha HA HA HA HAAAAA
Don't get into this thinking its cheap by any stretch of the imagination.
It's the worst drug there is. And more expensive then a lot of the other ones you might be thinking of.

Off to laugh maniacally at myself for having no money since I just bought some more gear this week.

jammster Sat, 07/04/2009 - 08:27

Well, on the surface it looks like all you need is a good mic to record. Now you are learning what more is involved.

In the ideal world Microphone Preamps, or mic pres are analog circuitry specifically designed to minimize noise and maximize musicality.

Often times one hears a great sounding song and thinks its easy to make because they see whats on the outside. But little is known about the circuitry and expertise used to get the end result.

So, if you just want to make simple recordings I urge you to start searching feedback on Google on the various USB microphones and just start there.

Leave the expensive world of home recording while you can, because it will cost you much more that you anticipate it ever could!

anonymous Sat, 07/04/2009 - 08:43

If I got this http://www.thomann.de/ie/emu_0202_usb.htm and this http://www.thomann.de/ie/shure_sm58_set.htm could I start recording my own music onto my pc ?

From what I've read above a USB mic is no good because it would introduce a latency, I like writing backing tracks to music so recording while listening to one through headphones would cause the finished product to sound out of time, No?[/url]

jammster Sat, 07/04/2009 - 08:56

davidpower wrote: If I got this http://www.thomann.de/ie/emu_0202_usb.htm

Remember you get what you pay for, and you may regret this down the road. Based on what users are saying 0404 is a huge step up from 0202. Use google and do some digging on your own. Think about it for a week before you lay down the dough!

Thats the best advice I can give, now I ought to be preparing for my friends coming over for my party!
I hope you have fun recording soon!

jg49 Sat, 07/04/2009 - 09:05

A little confused here. I went to the link that the OP provided, which is a PCI card. This accepts two 1/4"(unbalanced?) analog inputs, it would require I believe a mixer or preamp. It does not provide phantom power. If there is a stand alone USB E-MU with the same number then I was not aware of that and furthermore the mfg. ought to reconsider the way they number or name products as this could easily cause confusion among potential end users.

I think the cheapest way out is the Icicle, though I have absolutely no first hand knowledge of its performance or suitability other than the published specs.

The icicle @ $50.00 (above link) and a Shure SM57
http://www.frontendaudio.com/Shure_SM57_Cardioid_Dynamic_Microphone_p/2938.htm
with a free 25' cable @ $99.00 is a total of $150.00.

Though this accomplishes recording with the ability to multitrack inside the computer, you would still need a decent set of closed back headphones so you could listen to previous tracks (almost silently) while recording additional tracks.

anonymous Sat, 07/04/2009 - 09:05

jammster wrote: These were the best search results I found for USB mics:

Rode Podcaster

AT2020USB

Blue Snowball

I like the AT2020USB mic, I watched a review on youtube and the sound good better than what I'm used to.

Am I going to have a latency problem using this mic while recording to multiple tracks because its usb?

anonymous Sat, 07/04/2009 - 09:12

jg49 wrote: A little confused here. I went to the link that the OP provided, which is a PCI card. This accepts two 1/4"(unbalanced?) analog inputs, it would require I believe a mixer or preamp. It does not provide phantom power. If there is a stand alone USB E-MU with the same number then I was not aware of that and furthermore the mfg. ought to reconsider the way they number or name products as this could easily cause confusion among potential end users.

I think the cheapest way out is the Icicle, though I have absolutely no first hand knowledge of its performance or suitability other than the published specs.

The icicle @ $50.00 (above link) and a Shure SM57
http://www.frontendaudio.com/Shure_SM57_Cardioid_Dynamic_Microphone_p/2938.htm
with a free 25' cable @ $99.00 is a total of $150.00.

Though this accomplishes recording with the ability to multitrack inside the computer, you would still need a decent set of closed back headphones so you could listen to previous tracks (almost silently) while recording additional tracks.

So your saying USB Icicle and Shure SM57 Mic, I'll look into that.

jg49 Sat, 07/04/2009 - 09:15

davidpower wrote: If I got this http://www.thomann.de/ie/emu_0202_usb.htm and this http://www.thomann.de/ie/shure_sm58_set.htm could I start recording my own music onto my pc ?

From what I've read above a USB mic is no good because it would introduce a latency, I like writing backing tracks to music so recording while listening to one through headphones would cause the finished product to sound out of time, No?[/url]

Yes the two pieces of equipment you list here would fill all requirements, you would still need headphones.

USB mics would create latency issues. These can be resolved in Mixcraft by realigning the recorded tracks but this can be a tedious and exacting process.

jg49 Sun, 07/05/2009 - 08:02

Sm58 > MXL Mic mate>Computer will work fine, phantom power does not interfere with dynamic mics. When I suggested the Icicle I was under the mistaken impression that this device offered monitor capability. It does not, which means you are back to square one (USB mics) in the area of latency issues.

The truly hard part about giving you advice here is establishing a quality standard. What I mean by that is, you are presently recording on a PC mic into a sound card. On a professional level and a scale of 1-10 you are at negative 3. In other words extremely poor. Therefore almost anything that is the least professional will be a big step up. On the other hand as you are a musician it might be like the difference between a plastic flute and a cheap metal one or a Selmer. Where do you draw the line? Now if you are a serious player, I would recommend getting the best flute you can afford because it will help develop your ear be easier to play, get better tone, and so on. So there is a cost/benefit ratio to be sure.

Simple explanation of latency. "Latency comes from the computer reading ahead for example "1024 samples" and storing these in ram, as one sample is played another is added to the buffer. When the computer is busy theres hopefully enough samples stored in the buffer/ram to keep playing uninterrupted. This creates a waiting queue and is the delay you hear. As you increase the latency you give the computer more time to process the audio and it may result in lower cpu usage as well." PcMus.
Latency is measured in milliseconds less than 10 or 12 ms is barely noticeable for the average person. When using buffers 512 samples or less your latency problem will probably be minimal. I have no clue what your computers capabilities are so there is no way to know if you will need a buffer this large or larger, but also note that the more tracks you are trying to play back and record over the more likely higher buffer sizes will be required.

If you use a "zero latency monitoring" interface it corrects for this, allowing you to hear playback and input simultaneously.

The other issue is when using the Mic Mate, Icicle, or standard USB condenser, you will have to monitor from your computers soundcard. This means thar during playback and mixing (adjusting previously recorded tracks) you will be relying on what you hear from a far less than ideal source. Once again an interface will give you at least a decent source for this even in inexpensive models.

One other choice is the G-Track USB Condenser/interface and optional shock mount. I think you would be happier with the SM58 which will have a higher resale value if you decide you do want to continue.

So only you can decide what "works" for you. Most of the people here will give you the advice to not buy crap. Garbage in = garbage out. Buy once, cry once, quality pieces will give years of service and better results.

I would suggest you spend at least $30.00 more than the items you mentioned and get at least something like this (or similar)
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Alpha/
and the SM58 either new or used. This series of mics is practically indestuctible and buying used is not a big concern.

Only you can make these decisions, good luck.

anonymous Sun, 07/05/2009 - 09:26

jg49 wrote: Sm58 > MXL Mic mate>Computer will work fine, phantom power does not interfere with dynamic mics. When I suggested the Icicle I was under the mistaken impression that this device offered monitor capability. It does not, which means you are back to square one (USB mics) in the area of latency issues.

The truly hard part about giving you advice here is establishing a quality standard. What I mean by that is, you are presently recording on a PC mic into a sound card. On a professional level and a scale of 1-10 you are at negative 3. In other words extremely poor. Therefore almost anything that is the least professional will be a big step up. On the other hand as you are a musician it might be like the difference between a plastic flute and a cheap metal one or a Selmer. Where do you draw the line? Now if you are a serious player, I would recommend getting the best flute you can afford because it will help develop your ear be easier to play, get better tone, and so on. So there is a cost/benefit ratio to be sure.

Simple explanation of latency. "Latency comes from the computer reading ahead for example "1024 samples" and storing these in ram, as one sample is played another is added to the buffer. When the computer is busy theres hopefully enough samples stored in the buffer/ram to keep playing uninterrupted. This creates a waiting queue and is the delay you hear. As you increase the latency you give the computer more time to process the audio and it may result in lower cpu usage as well." PcMus.
Latency is measured in milliseconds less than 10 or 12 ms is barely noticeable for the average person. When using buffers 512 samples or less your latency problem will probably be minimal. I have no clue what your computers capabilities are so there is no way to know if you will need a buffer this large or larger, but also note that the more tracks you are trying to play back and record over the more likely higher buffer sizes will be required.

If you use a "zero latency monitoring" interface it corrects for this, allowing you to hear playback and input simultaneously.

The other issue is when using the Mic Mate, Icicle, or standard USB condenser, you will have to monitor from your computers soundcard. This means thar during playback and mixing (adjusting previously recorded tracks) you will be relying on what you hear from a far less than ideal source. Once again an interface will give you at least a decent source for this even in inexpensive models.

One other choice is the G-Track USB Condenser/interface and optional shock mount. I think you would be happier with the SM58 which will have a higher resale value if you decide you do want to continue.

So only you can decide what "works" for you. Most of the people here will give you the advice to not buy crap. Garbage in = garbage out. Buy once, cry once, quality pieces will give years of service and better results.

I would suggest you spend at least $30.00 more than the items you mentioned and get at least something like this (or similar)
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Alpha/
and the SM58 either new or used. This series of mics is practically indestructible and buying used is not a big concern.

Only you can make these decisions, good luck.

I've read the SM58 great great reviews and everywhere I read the LEXICON ALPHA STUDIO gets good reviews also, so after thinking about it over dinner (beef and spuds) I decided to go with your suggestion jg and I went for them both. order Placed now.

I'd like to thank everyone for there time and knowledge.

I'll let you know who I get on when it arrives.

anonymous Thu, 07/09/2009 - 09:43

Its all here, I've spent the day playing with all the new hardware and software. I am having so much fun, the quality of the recording is far superior to anything I was getting before, Learning how to use Cubase is no easy task. My biggest problem now is trying to learn how to record each my different instruments, Does anyone here have any experience recording Flutes, Clarinets and or Saxophones?

Again, I would like to thank everyone who replied to my original question, I am very happy with my new set-up. :D

anonymous Thu, 07/09/2009 - 14:33

TheJackAttack wrote:

Does anyone here have any experience recording Flutes, Clarinets and or Saxophones?

Yes. Techniques will vary depending on style of playing, solo or ensemble, room, mood, etc.

Its just me in my room, on my tod playing one of the instruments mentioned above. I think I know how to record a flute now, I'm struggling with the Sax and the clarinet now, the sax is very hard to record.

TheJackAttack Thu, 07/09/2009 - 18:20

Other resources for you involve checking out the "Books to Read" link on every post. My personal favorite is from Yamaha, The Sound Reinforcement Handbook by Gary Davis.

Ultimately you will spend oodles and oodles of time playing with mic positions. Just when you think you have it perfect you'll move something an inch and get a completely different sound.

As your experience grows the time spent deciding how to mic a particular instrument for a particular style of music will decrease significantly but you will always keep experimenting if you are hungry for the "perfect" sound.

anonymous Thu, 07/09/2009 - 18:25

TheJackAttack wrote: Other resources for you involve checking out the "Books to Read" link on every post. My personal favorite is from Yamaha, The Sound Reinforcement Handbook by Gary Davis.

Ultimately you will spend oodles and oodles of time playing with mic positions. Just when you think you have it perfect you'll move something an inch and get a completely different sound.

As your experience grows the time spent deciding how to mic a particular instrument for a particular style of music will decrease significantly but you will always keep experimenting if you are hungry for the "perfect" sound.

I understand the attraction now, there are so many variables all of which can be equated and accounted for, I imagine doing a class in sound physics could help too :P

Thanks for the resources, I will read a few tonight in bed, then tomorrow I will start the hunt!

soapfloats Thu, 07/16/2009 - 00:41

Mic choice/placement is everything.

I have many "safe bets" that I use.

Still, if the band will let me play a little, I play.
Every player and every instrument is as different as every mic and placement.
57 or 421 on toms? Both are "safe bets", but I'd rather get the one that fits that kit and player best. Ditto for placement.

Like Jack said, the more you play, the more you know. How about a 2020 on toms (thanks Dave!)? Not always right, but I try it if I have the leisure.

As a rule (esp. w/ condensers) I've found:
Below and pointed at the chin registers more of the chest and throat sound.
Above and pointed at the mouth registers more of the sinus cavity resonances.
I sometimes like to use a dynamic straight on w/ a condenser above. Works for me, may not work at all for you. I am just pointing out some of the things I experiment with to give you some launching points.

As they say, Your Methods May Vary. If you don't vary, you don't have a method.

And don't forget about the proximity effect!

jammster Sat, 07/18/2009 - 19:55

davidpower wrote: I think I know how to record a flute now, I'm struggling with the Sax and the clarinet now, the sax is very hard to record.

Davidpower, this is an interesting topic, why not start a topic in the microphones category about your troubles. I'm sure you will get more responses if you specify what you are looking to solve in your topic headline.

By the way, Its good to hear your having fun with your new interface. :)

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