There is only one solution in my opinion, Yamaha NS 10's. Yeah they are not flattering, as a matter of fact I think they sound pretty bad but if you can make somthing sound good on them it will travel. By that I mean it will sound good on all systems. Also they are a known quantity, a standard in the buisness. Yamaha has stopped making them so you will have to find a used set. Fats

Hey Cedar,
I've been looking at the NS10s also, but I've heard that they cause ear fatigue really fast and are hard to listen to for long periods of time, so they're not to good to have as your "only" monitors. I've also heard that they kinda lack in the low end. That's why I'm looking at getting the Yorkville (or other) monitors first. I still do plan on getting those some day and I'll probably use them to check mixes on and make minor tweaks, because I too have heard that if you can get it to sound good on these then they will sound good on anything. But I don't think I'll use them as my main monitors.

Thanks for the reply,
-tkr

The NS-10s are used by many pros as their main mixing monitors. And they do cause ear fatigue. They are also going for about $500 pair since they are now "vintage".

Just some comments:
- Cedar Flats is right, if you can get a mix to sound good in the NS-10s it will sound good almost anywhere.
- To get NS-10s to be tolerable you need to power them with a really really good amp. Most pro studios are using something in the class of a Bryston 4B bridged for each speaker (~$3000 of amp per speaker). Then they actually sound pretty good! :eek:

You always have to consider the power amp budget for monitors. The self powered monitors are a good trade off if you are on a budget. Otherwise you should be thinking at least $800/channel for powere amps.

I've got a Mackie 1400i power amp (which is a very nice amp, about $600) so all I really need is the monitors. As of right now I don't have $800 per channel to spend on an amp and I just need some good monitors so I can get rid of the Aiwa CD-Player speakers :)

They are also going for about $500 pair since they are now "vintage".

Dang, I guess it'll be a while before I can get those then. :(

-tkr

Except. It's becoming almost impossible to get components for them (NS10's) now. They are very prone to (especially the woofers) early fatigue. A&M (back when Shelleyu Yakus was there) used to change out eher NS10 components EVERY DAY. There was a pretty good little used market in LA for day old NS10 parts back then. I use them (especially with my yamaha sub). But I would not buy pair now. I'd find a new referrance. There are many capable options out there. And it won't cost an arm or leg to keep them in shape. AND you won't work on speakers that are past there prime because you don't have new parts. NS10 woofers, especially, get floppy fast.

my .02 cents:
I heard the Yorkville monitors at the winter NAMM show and was completely unimpressed (and I really wanted to like them as I was a dealer and looking for an inexpensive pair of nearfields). granted it was noisy, but the sound was so distorted (either as a gain structure issue, source issue, or speaker issue) I have never thought about getting near a pair again...
Now hopefully this won't incite too many tomatoes but I would suggest the Behringer monitors. Best cheap powered monitors around for 350-399 a pair. 125 watts for the lows and 75 for the highs.

When it comes to "project studio" monitors, most of them suck. There are several monitors out there that will serve you much better than those Yorkvilles.
For $600, you can get a pair of KRK V4's that are very nice. The low end is a little limited, but they're very flat and accurate ... arguably the best buy in their price range.
Closer to the price range of the Yorkvilles, I like Tannoy Reveals. They're unpowered, but you have an amp for em. They're around $350.
I'll also risk the tomatoes with Tekker ... for $400 a pair, the Behringer Truth monitors are decent bi-amped monitors ... much better than others anywhere near their price.

I personally can make the NS10's work very well. The early NS10's did have slightly thicker cones and would stay piston-like longer before warping. For average levels, no problems with the NS10's. one studio had 1000/side and we never blew them (although one did vibrate off the meter bridge onto the floor)

At this time, look towar dynaudio. They are a shade mushier than 10's but they translate well.

Opps , running out of time again..sorry so busy....

my .02 cents:
I heard the Yorkville monitors at the winter NAMM show and was completely unimpressed (and I really wanted to like them as I was a dealer and looking for an inexpensive pair of nearfields). granted it was noisy, but the sound was so distorted (either as a gain structure issue, source issue, or speaker issue) I have never thought about getting near a pair again...

Really? That's the first time I've ever heard that (and I've done quite a bit of searching). I imagine it must have been something that they did, cause I've heard nothing but great things about these.

I'd like to be able to listen before I buy, but I don't think the Guitar Center here has the Yorkvilles (tho I could be wrong)... but when I get the money I'll talk to them and see if they can get a pair in so I can listen before I buy. I'm not sure if they have the Behringers either but I'll see, I'd like to be able to try out both.

For $600, you can get a pair of KRK V4's that are very nice. The low end is a little limited, but they're very flat and accurate ... arguably the best buy in their price range.

Man, I'd LOVE to be able to get the KRKs, but they are a bit out of the price range at the moment. :(

-tkr

Just to update my comment, in addition to my NS 10's I have a set of Tannoy DMT 12's. I power both the Yamahas and the Tannoys with seperate Haffler Trans Nova 3000's ( 2 bridged in mono for the Tannoys and 1 in stereo for the Yamahas). I have found this to be an exellent reference system and I have never had a problem with the NS 10's in over 5 years. I had a client who fried one of the twweters in the Tannoys once but that's all. The KRK's are nice too. I've used them in another studio a few times and they worked well. Just remember that your mics and speakers are the most important factor in your recording set up. Don't skimp on them. Fats

People's comment son the NS-10's are pretty much consistant with my experience. I used them for a long time with a Crown K2. But since they are discontinued you will pay a premium for them as well as the parts.

I would not recommend using the Mackie 1400i for studio monitors. I have one that we use on occaision for a PA and when ever I have hooked it up for anything in the studio it just sounded really nasty.

In your budget range I think you would be better off with a powered set of monitors. Since you are limited by budget you really ought to find a way to audition some to make sure you like what ever you buy. Monitors are probably the single most important part of your studio in terms of getting a good sound. You might think about raising some funds and getting something you really like.

You might think about raising some funds and getting something you really like.

The only problem is, is that I'm paying for college at the moment and when I'm in college I can barely afford to keep that and car insurace covered. Now that I'm out for summer I gotta get it NOW or use these crappy Aiwa CD-Player speakers I've been using for another year (and I refuse to do that). I'm afraid that the Yorkies are going to be as high as I'm gonna be able to go as I've got another stickin' insurance payment coming up very soon which is gonna take off another $100+. :( As many good things as I've heard about them from people that have them or that use them (one of them in particular that really likes them also owns the KRK V8s and is one of the recording gurus over at homerecording.com), I don't think I will go wrong in getting them. But I was really surprised to find all the negative comments about them over hear (but that's why I wanted to get some more opinions). But the way my budget has been shrinking lately, I think I may either have to go with the Yorkies (or something else in that low price range) or spend another year mixing on my Aiwa speakers.

-tkr

Tekker,
along with the ubiquitous NS10's, I own a pir of JBL LSR25P's that I highly recommend. There small, self powered, sheilded (you can put them right alonside your monitor). They have dip switches to countour the sound various ways; i.e. you can make them brighter/duller and compensate for haing them up against a wall or using a sub woofer.
There also around $300. Thats a piece though...I don't know if you were speaking of $300 for a pair or ....so this would be around $600. I can say that working around 85-90 db on these speakers will give you very translatable mixes...damn near anywhere.
Components are cheap and raedily available as well.

Unfortunately that was $300 for both speakers. :) )...

-tkr

Check the NHT mini 0. They are often on EBAY too.
I have seen pair going for as low as $100..I don't
know how much they are new but should be really around your budget. jo

I would look around for "hi-fi" speakers in the $300 range too, a lot of options out there....

Amund

Howdy

After years of using NS10s, I switched to the JBL LSR28s a couple years ago. I really like them. I could list my likes about them but I think the most important thing for me is, they're everything the NS10s aren't. So, the LSRs end up being my "main" monitor and the NS10s are my "check" monitors.

actually, ns10m parts are easy to find. yamaha is still making them, and many electronics stores around the country stock them. yamaha is usually 3 weeks backordered. I just bought 2 tweets for $49 ea.

Has anyone successfully fused their ns10's w/o severe quality loss?

-iv

tweeters are one thing, woofers are another. The tree that the pulp comes from for those woofers is no longer readily available to Yamaha which is why the NS10's were discontinued. They sold out of their remaining stock of woofers pretty quickly (I know a guy who bought about 20 of them)

Musician's friend is selling KRK v4000's for under 100 @. They are the non-powered verison of the V4's. I'm using Genelec 1031's and a pair of radio shack(rca)Minimus7's small cast aluminum enclosure with 4" speaker and tweeter for the car stereo/boombox perspective.

What's wrong with Alesis M1 Active monitors?
They're $500 and I like 'em quite a bit, but they're the only monitors I've ever had... Am I in all reality listening to shit and I don't know it?
Is Alesis really frowned upon?
And if so, what is the collective opinion of the 3630 compressor and the meq-232 eq?

I bought it all when I first started out, not knowing any better. Are they all total crap?

I've used the Alesis passive monitors...whatever their model# is-the ones with the ribbon tweet's....I thought they were quite good....sort of a less harsh NS10 with more bottom. :cool:

LittleBigNoize,
I have used the Alisis 3630 compressors quite a bit and while they are not usually a first choice I don't have any problem with them. I have 2 of them in my rack and I use them whenever I want a VCA type of compression effect, guitars or telephone vox effect for example. It sounds as good as any of the other inexpensive VCA based comps out there, it has a good set of control features and as long as you don't compress the source too hard (ratio @ less than 6 to 1) or too much (4 to 6 dB of reduction) I have found them to work just fine. The noise gates are pretty unuseable. I have always been suspect of the wisdom of placing a gate after compression, as it seems much more difficult to gate a signal after it has been squashed. I suspect the 3630 is the same circut design as many of the other budget compressors on the market. Is there anyone out there that can confirm this? I am not a tech so I wouldn't know, but IMO the features and sound of the 3630 compares to many of the less expensive units by DBX and others. Monitors are a different thing as I am scared to wander too far from my previously stated prefrences.
A-scared!!, Fats

For compression we use either the compressors built into the Octopre, EnVoice, or dbx's during tracking, and the software from Samplitude (and some plugs here and there...)during mixing/mastering.

Monitors? I ordered some Tannoy reveals on a whim a few months back, and love them to death now. We did a 9 hour project the other day with no signs of the proverbial ear fatigue. I also have a set of RCA desktop (shielded) speakers that I use to get another perspective on the mix...

To hear what we just did on a home-based stereo, I play the CD through some POS Pioneer system with Bose 301s and a set of car audio speakers...

As with all things audio, everyone will have a different opinion. Do as much homework and testimonial review as you can stomach before spending a dime...

OK, thanks Fats! I agree about the compressor, but I've seen disparaging remarks sometimes about alesis... I've always thought it sounded pretty good though. And the mi actives sound really good I think (for the money). They're bi amped and sell for 5 bills, and it seems that's about as cheap as decent powered monitors come new.
I've got a mackie 1400i too, but using it as a monitor amp would be like taking a tank to a car show! lol... I drive 2 jbl 15's and an infiniti 12.1 (Lb.)sub with it, when I want to play some records for the neighborhood! I have actually made the outside edge of the 15" cones glow with that amp! It will make them light up like there's neon lights around the cones!
Has anyone ever experienced that? Any idea how or why it does it? No, the speakers and amp did'nt blow, and yes it was too loud. :D

Almost all of these segestions are good except the Alesis and the HiFi thing that is a bad idea. I would also suggest you think about active monitors. A mackie is a tank but not a good reference amp. I would go with the active the amp is built not just for the parts but for the box. The most important thing about monitors is that you get a pair you like. Get a CD that you know how it sound and go listen to some and get the ones that sound good to you. Don't ask for prices untill you have listened to them. Get what sounds bet to you. Some stores will even let you take them home and try them out. Also I can't undertand why with all this talk monitors and averybody going back and forth about the NS10 no one even brought up the Blue Skys. I under stand the are out of the price range for some but in the end they are not really that much more exspensive then the Mackie HR824s.

Dude,
I was in your position a little while ago. I didn't want to go Yamahas (cause I don't like searing headaches), so I took a good reference CD to the local hifi store and tested out some Paradigm Mini Monitors. I ended up getting a pair and I love them. I was using a pair of JBl control 5's (crap) and I didn't know how bad they were until I A/B'd them with the Paradigms.

Monitor choice comes down to personal preference; so for me, I can mix on them and that is where it counts.

Ian

PS: Oh yeah, I'm also starting college this fall at University California Santa Barbara. Have you lived in the dorms before, and if so, were you able to mix at all or were they really strict about volume??

Your speaker's are the most important thing in your system, so is the amp & X-over that will be driving them. I have used some nice and some not so nice speakers but like a few other post I've seen in this thread, Tannoy is a great speaker for the price and sound. The best thing about a powered speaker is that everything is lined up at the factory by the experts, plug and play.
I have a pair of Reveals (powered) and two 110B's (powered) sub's all four of these speakers where designed to go together. There so tight with one another even in an unpreped room I was getting some very good end work. I payed 2 grand for all four of them (brand new), call some of the mail order companies (Musician's Friend, Sweetwater ect...) they will give you 1-2 grand credit on the spot. I've been buying this way for two years and have racked up some nice gear for a good monthly payment as low as 20-40 bucks.
I have to agree with the earlyer reply on the PA amp your thinking about useing..Don't do it. PA amp's are made to run PA's not nearfealds, I have seen some Tannoy Proto-J's (have no info on these) and Hafler set-ups at low prices. Mabey another group member can give you some input on the Proto-J's.

I'm not a salesman, just made some wrong buy's in the past.

good luck :)
Raymond Ward
A.S. Recording Arts

Tekker - Two options you might consider. First, since you seem intent on using your current amp, look at the Event 20/20 passives. Pretty good value for the price, and most reviews of them have been pretty good. They certainly deserve a listen. Run $300/pair.

The other suggestion would be the M-Audio SP-8B, which Musician's Friend has been blowing out for $299. These are active monitors and reivews of these have been mixed, but they are a great value for the money and a lot of people like them better than the Truths, and for less money. There has been some speculation about their availability from MF, but they are centainly worth checking out.

Hey, I'm just trying to give you suggestions within your budget. Sure, you could save for something better, but both of these speakers are pretty good for your budget and I don't think either will disappoint you. I was actually thinking about picking up a pair of the SP-8B's just because they are so damn inexpensive and it would give me another pair to check my mixes on.

I have a buddy that has a pair of those M-audio SP8B monitors. Honestly, I didn't like the sound of them. There was an annoying peakiness in the upper mids. I came to also find out that the pre-amp fried in one of them, so he's tracking on some PA speakers. The Behringer Truth monitors aren't the best, but quite beefy for the price and definately easy on the ears. I listened to some Tannoy System800 monitors some years back. They were great sounding in my opinion.

Avoid the mistake of buying a “flavor of the day” monitor. 20 years ago I bought my first set of NS-10’s. They are still the monitors I do most of my work on. In those 20 years I have replaced one tweeter (only last year).

Also in those 20 years I have purchased near-fields by Fostex, Tannoy, JBL, KRK, Alesis, and Mackie. All flavors of the day … they have all came and went … the NS-10’s have stayed. The mixes on NS-10’s just sound good in the real world. And, that is what it’s all about, right.

It should be noted that the NS-10’s are only one out of four sets of mains (and an independently engageable sub) that I have available in my studio. I constantly switch between systems to obtain various viewpoints. The NS-10’s are not a very “hi-fi” sounding box … usually this is to your advantage … with one major exception: Frequencies below apx. 70 Hz. If you are concerned with what your sub-bass is doing … you will have to employ a sub-woofer. This, however, is not unique to the NS-10’s. Any small “near-field” monitor will be lacking in these frequencies. Many of today’s small monitors are ported to (in theory) improve low-end response. The ported enclosures sacrifice tightness in the low end. I prefer the acoustic suspension system employed in the NS-10’s.

Having said all that, I will nod to the fact that the NS-10’s are not in production. That bites. I think they are still quite easily found used, however. I bought a pair for my second studio a couple years back for $250 on ebay. Oh, and as far as I know Tech-Star here in Nashville still carries both Woofers and tweeters for them. They are a little expensive at just shy of $80 each.

If other experienced pros out there have came upon any REAL replacements for the NS-10 … I’d love to hear about them. Everyone in Nashville seems to be buying the Genelec’s right now. Those things are expensive! They sound so nice … but, I think I’ll sit that bandwagon out. “Flavor de-Jour”

-Vaughn-

Well, I got a pair of Yorkville YSM1i two days ago, and so far, so good - I'm a convert. I've got a couple of friends who have NS-10s and Tannoy Reveals (which were my other 2 choices), so we're planning on comparing the three sometime.

Most impressive thing about the Yorkvilles so far is that the bottom end is very defined - the whole spectum on them seem to be very balanced. Thats the only way I can describe it. Imaging is also spot on too.

The main deciding factor in me buying the Yorkvilles was that I couldn't find anyone saying anything bad about them... The post about the distortion is certianly an anomaly from what I've read.

Just my two cents.

Willy.

I use Genelec 1031 monitors which sound wicked..bit pricey for some maybe..they were a present..yeeha! also i've got 2 Empirical Labs Distressors which sound great on anything.

Mongoose ... I got a pair of Yorkvilles two weeks ago myself. Spent six hours this past Saturday mixing a cut with 14 tracks and have to say I didn't suffer ear fatigue and I got a mix that sounded good on every player I tried it on, from my big home system to my $39 K-Mart boom box.

Originally posted by LittleBigNoize:
I drive 2 jbl 15's and an infiniti 12.1 (Lb.)sub with it, when I want to play some records for the neighborhood! I have actually made the outside edge of the 15" cones glow with that amp! It will make them light up like there's neon lights around the cones!
Has anyone ever experienced that? Any idea how or why it does it? No, the speakers and amp did'nt blow, and yes it was too loud. :D

Sounds like overload protection. I'm guessing your speakers are in a cabinet and not just laying on the floor. If you open it you'll find something that looks shockingly like a light bulb. The internal circuitry uses it to bleed off excess current.

The first time I saw this happen was really scary - especially since it wasn't my equipment. Later that week I killed the low drivers in someone else's speakers, but it was really their !#%!$ bass player's fault (why do people really want to play with all the pretty sound equipment when they don't know what the !#%# they're doing? sigh..)

Ryan

NS-10 have never been used by pro to mix. They were used to monitor the voice-to-music balance.
It's impossible to make a good mix with a loudspeaker that has nothing good below 200 Hz.

Insetead i would recommend a high end ls + a little for reference

Big one: Genelec 1032A
little one: Fostex 6301 B

I disagree. Tons of records have been mixed using NS 10's. I saw 2 or 3 mentioned this month alone in the various audio magazines ( Mix, EQ PAR, Audio Media etc.). Just look at all the pictures in the mags, 9 out of 10 rooms are using NS 10's in conjunction with big mains. You will see some other nearfields like Genelecs or Westlakes (out of my price range) but the one thing you almost always see along side them is NS 10's! There's a reason for this, they work! I really don't think all thoes studios would employ them if all they were good for was checking voice to music balance. I consider myself a "pro" and I have been using NS 10's for 8 or 9 years. I resisted buying a pair initially but my maintainance tech (whom I respect immensely) kept ragging on me, "You've got to get a pair of NS10's." I hated the way they sounded and I didn't see any reason to purchase a set of speakers that I thought sounded like dog. I finally relented and boy am I glad. It was exactly what was needed to get my mix's where they needed to be. Yes, they are mid range heavy but I suspect that is what makes them work. As far as ear fatigue, I shudder to think of someone at the console fo 14 hours mixing. Take a break, go home, eat, rest, see your wife. Come back tomorrow to mix. 6 to 8 hours is enough. I don't care what speakers you use, after several hours your perception of the upper mids and high end is going to be altered / attenuated. I can't tell you how many times I have seen someone return to mix again after a marathon mix session. Do what you want, but if you check out the monitors in "pro" studios you will see Yamaha NS10's everywhere, while I can't ever recall seeing a pair of Yorkvilles. .....Fats

Originally posted by joy4u:
NS-10 have never been used by pro to mix. They were used to monitor the voice-to-music balance.
It's impossible to make a good mix with a loudspeaker that has nothing good below 200 Hz.

There are many, many , many, many hits out there mixed on NS-10s (not just used for voice reference).
Its not my preference anymore but I have heard some incredible mixes done on them with no subs. Its all a matter of what you like.

Here's another vote for Paradigm Mini Monitors. They are sold on the hi-fi market, but they are dry and clear like monitors. I trust them more than my friend's much-more-expensive (and well-respected) KRK V8s. It's a taste thing, of course, but I think the Paradigms were a great buy.

jajjguy wrote
"Here's another vote for Paradigm Mini Monitors. They are sold on the hi-fi market, but they are dry and clear like monitors. I trust them more than my friend's much-more-expensive (and well-respected) KRK V8s. It's a taste thing, of course, but I think the Paradigms were a great buy."

I have a pair of paradigms for my home stereo - tee vee set up and I love them. They really sound good and they can crank. However, I have used them in the studio beside my NS 10's , Auratones and my Tannoy System 12 DMT II's and I can say they sound good but they ain't flat! That's why "you all" like them so much. For you musicians out there, I can't come up with a pizzia and rootbeer slant on it but think of it this way,... NS 10's are a used car before the dealer preps it for sale. Home stereo speakers are the same car after it's been detailed.
Th Th Th That's all folks........Fats