I was just wondering if anyone knew if there was a difference between the NS-10's that are "designed to be" vertically oriented versus the ones that are horizontally oriented? (you can tell by looking at the "Yamaha" label and the woofers)
I remember seeing a post about this somewhere but I can't seem to find it now that I need it!
Thanks!
Ryan
Comments
Hi...the older NS-10's are vertical- they were sort of adopted b
Hi...the older NS-10's are vertical- they were sort of adopted by studios so Yamaha released the NS-10m (which I have) which is designed to lay flat on the meter bridge and has a much better tweeter and HF response, even though in my opinions the speakers still are pretty harsh (remember all those people who used to tape tissue paper over the tweeter).
The wonderful thing about NS10's is that they sound so bad that any mix you can get to sound good on them is killer. Good luck.
Bhennies wrote: The wonderful thing about NS10's is that they so
Bhennies wrote: The wonderful thing about NS10's is that they sound so bad that any mix you can get to sound good on them is killer. Good luck.
I am happy to see that someone "gets" this. No, NS 10s and NS10m's are not the best sounding speakers in the world. I would never use them for casual listening. But they do produce very good mixes..
The NS10s have a tweeter with a squared edge grill and came under criticism as being too harsh sounding, hence the "Bob Clearmountian remedy" of placing tissue over the tweets to soften the highs up ... Yamaha responded by re designing the tweets on the NS10M's. These have a more rounded grill. It is very easy to see the difference ...
I have seen some very humorous threads on RO, where the type of tissue used to do this was debated. This extended to the silliness of asking whether vintage Charmin or MD was superior to more modern types ... search the thread archives. It is so funny it is well worth the searching.
Kurt Foster
I own a pair of NS10M's, they sound very different laying vertic
I own a pair of NS10M's, they sound very different laying vertically than they do horizontally.
Vertically they sound worse to me.
They give you a completely different representation of sound when you lay them down horizontally, this of course is compared with both positioning's tweeters at ear level.
I like the way they sound better horizontally, it brings the low mids right up front.
However, I've yet to figure out the most tactical way to use them, regarding how you position them and whether or not to actually mix on them or just check mix's on them.
ChrisH, post: 439351, member: 43833 wrote: They give you a compl
ChrisH, post: 439351, member: 43833 wrote: They give you a completely different representation of sound when you lay them down horizontally, this of course is compared with both positioning's tweeters at ear level.
I noticed this with a new pair of HS7's I have...initially I positioned them horizontally and the first thing I noticed was that the low mids were very prominent and up front.
The owners' manual states to use the speakers vertically as they were designed, so I flipped them into the vertical position and I did notice a difference.
When the HS7's were horizontal, my B monitors which are a set of KRK Rokit 5's sounded like they had more low end than the HS7's but when I flipped the HS7's to the vertical position the low mids were less prominent and the lows more balanced and up front IMO.
Its worth noting variations caused by the physical / time offsets between the drivers when positioning horizontally as the diagram below illustrates
When it comes to sitting your monitors horizontal as opposed to vertical (if they are designed to be used in a vertical position) the general concensus is you run the risk of a mix position with a narrower sweet spot and increased comb filtering between the tweeters and the drivers.
Having them in the vertical position if they are designed as such makes sense as there is more horizontal movement from left to right when mixing as opposed to vertical movement (ie standing up / sitting down).
One would think this was taken into account by Yamaha when they redesigned the NS10 for studio use to sit horizontally across a metering bridge, but who knows?
When it comes to my HS7's I'll just follow the manufacturers' instructions and mount them vertically to operate how they were designed by the brains trust at Yamaha for optimum performance...after all, I'm no acoustician or design expert when it comes to sound...I just make the stuff :D
Surely there are two issues her Eyes? The manufacturers recommen
Surely there are two issues her Eyes? The manufacturers recommendation, as in 'mount them vertically', and the other thing the distance from the middle - for each driver. Wasn't the entire point of dual concentric speakers that having a point source was best for stereo image? Vertical alignment does this quite well, but horizontal wrecks image, especially around the crossover frequency. If you look at the angles in a near field placement, the mid or far field speaker equivalent would be having the LF and HF speaker components crazy distances apart, maybe even feet, which few would consider as a good move. Running a frequency sweep through your near fields with your eyes closed should produce no shift in location. If it appears to move, they're going to mess the mix up.
90% of the time if a studio has a set of NS10's, they are laying
90% of the time if a studio has a set of NS10's, they are laying down horizontal.
I think it might be possible that this is just the result of seen tradition from large pro studios laying them down to stay out of the way of sight to the tracking room window and sound from the mains.
NS10's are not great sounding speakers either way but they are more exciting to listen to why laying horizontally and only when they are placed vertically do I understand people saying they "sound terrible" and "they're fatiguing".
I am sure that I have read somewhere that the drivers were turne
I am sure that I have read somewhere that the drivers were turned 90 degrees either at the factory during manufacture or as an afterthought post point-of-sale which helped minimise variations caused by the physical / time offsets to a degree with the horizontal application...but I'm unsure of the source and therefore cannot guarantee this as fact so don't quote me on this...
I hope I am not purpetuating some audio myth by saying so as the internet is already full of enough mis-informtion as it is. ;)
But it was one of those things that stuck in my mind when reading about vertical / horizontal applications with the NS-10 and subsequent HS-7.
Kurt Foster, post: 439425, member: 7836 wrote: either way you fl
Kurt Foster, post: 439425, member: 7836 wrote: either way you flip ns10's, the woofer and tweeter are not in line. i believe there were at least two variants, one meant to be vertical the other horizontal. the silk screening on the front indicates the intended placement.
Is this because the tweeter is offset from the centre of the front face?
bouldersound, post: 439422, member: 38959 wrote: If somebody kno
bouldersound, post: 439422, member: 38959 wrote: If somebody knows how a speaker system can be designed not to do this when the drivers are in a horizontal arrangement please explain.
It's not too difficult to add an approximation to a time delay into the crossover network. It's easier to do with an active crossover ahead of the power amps for the HF and LF drivers.
The speakers would then have to be used horizontally with the tweeters innermost or outermost, depending on the design of the network.
Boswell, post: 439437, member: 29034 wrote: It's not too difficu
Boswell, post: 439437, member: 29034 wrote: It's not too difficult to add an approximation to a time delay into the crossover network. It's easier to do with an active crossover ahead of the power amps for the HF and LF drivers.
The speakers would then have to be used horizontally with the tweeters innermost or outermost, depending on the design of the network.
That won't put the drivers in phase at both ears, and any movement in the horizontal plane would change the phase relationship, as would small differences in the angle of the speaker on its vertical axis. The sweet spot will be millimeters wide and deep, and that only if you align the cabinets very precisely. These problem are inherent in a horizontal arrangement when the crossover frequency is high enough relative to the distances.
If I'm doing the numbers right (always questionable) it takes le
If I'm doing the numbers right (always questionable) it takes less than a centimeter change in the relative distances from ear to drivers to shift the phase (between woofer and tweeter) 180° at the crossover frequency.
[Edit] Nope, it would be about 8.6cm.
So, given that, and that the drivers appear to be over 10" (25.4cm, using the 10" driver as a reference), it could take substantially less than 90° change in angle to produce 180° change in phase.
bouldersound, post: 439442, member: 38959 wrote: That won't put
bouldersound, post: 439442, member: 38959 wrote: That won't put the drivers in phase at both ears, and any movement in the horizontal plane would change the phase relationship, as would small differences in the angle of the speaker on its vertical axis. The sweet spot will be millimeters wide and deep, and that only if you align the cabinets very precisely. These problem are inherent in a horizontal arrangement when the crossover frequency is high enough relative to the distances.
Yes, there would be all sorts of difficulties if you were to try implementing a practical system based on this principle. My reply was simply in repsonse to your post effectively asking how time alignment could be achieved.
On the occasions that I've been mixing in studios that have NS10s, the speakers have been positioned horizontally, but angled inwards so that the plane of the speaker fronts was normal to the line to the mix engineer. Doing this removes the problem of flight time differences from the two drivers, but means that only one person can receive a correctly-phased image.
At least with vertical alignment you can lean forward, sit back
At least with vertical alignment you can lean forward, sit back and reach a sidecar with much less change in the sound of the speakers, and clients behind you will also hear something less altered. Plus, I can hear the difference in imaging between woofers and tweeters when they're horizontal.
Now that I think about it again, there are 3 different ways to p
Now that I think about it again, there are 3 different ways to position Yamaha NS10M's (the ones with the horizontal badge).
You can either have them vertical, horizontal with tweeters on the outsides, or horizontal with tweeters on the inside.
I guess it just comes down to whatever helps you the most.
ChrisH, post: 447541, member: 43833 wrote: Now that I think abou
ChrisH, post: 447541, member: 43833 wrote: Now that I think about it again, there are 3 different ways to position Yamaha NS10M's (the ones with the horizontal badge). You can either have them vertical, horizontal with tweeters on the outsides, or horizontal with tweeters on the inside
No, 4. I've seen them suspended upside-down on brackets from the control-room ceiling.
Fun times. Here's a list. NS-10M Original version; Vertical...
Fun times. Here's a list. NS-10M Original version; Vertical.....as is the NS-10M Pro. Horizontal mounting is for NS-10MC & NS-10M Studio. There was also an MS-10 MT which is a home theater version and an MS-10MX which is magnetically shielded. I mounted mine in the for sale section of the bargain mart paper. HAH!
One thing I should mention and you do see this from time to time, is they have a left and a right side to them. I've seen pairs being sold on ebay and such that were both one sided. Hard to get a clear image with that setup
I'm not crazy about them, never have been really... it was more
I'm not crazy about them, never have been really... it was more of an obligatory thing, when they were sitting on top of nearly every studio's console meter bridge in the 80's and 90's.
I still have mine, but I rarely use them, and really only keep them around for "those" clients who insist upon mixing through them.
I have a pair of passive Alesis M1's that I think translates mixes just as well as the NS10's, except they're not harsh, and I can mix for much longer periods with them.
I do appreciate that NS10's seem to translate mixes very well, and in that sense, they do what they serve their intended purpose.... Although they're a mystery to me as to how they work.
I don't know why... they're probably the harshest sounding near-fields I've ever personally worked with - but they do have some kind of "mojo" that makes them useful...and still a popular choice for many.
If they just weren't so damned harsh to use....especially in the upper mids. I've found that enduring their sound for the length of time and at the average volume that your run-of-the-mill rock mix takes, is pretty tough on the ears, at least for me, anyway.
Has anyone here had any time on the HS5's? Are they the same as NS10's?
I own Avatones. When I first got them I thought, yuk! But once
I own Avatones. When I first got them I thought, yuk! But once my ears got used to mixing without tweeters, including not adding high end to compensate, they are amazing. I would not want to mix without them now. They help me dial in mids like nothing I've experienced before. Once the mix is at a point of can't get it better, I switch on my other pairs with tweeters and finish off the mix.Works really well.
I'm thinking NS 10 has a similar science to them. They are so harsh, but the harsh is probably in the perfect spot humans don't like, thus helps us set a really good curve
audiokid, post: 447556, member: 1 wrote: the harsh is probably i
audiokid, post: 447556, member: 1 wrote: the harsh is probably in the perfect spot humans don't like, thus helps us set a really good curve
That may be it ... maybe. But as Kurt mentioned it's not only a frequency thing, it's also a phase thing, too. It's kinda tough to describe on words... you have to hear them for yourself.
I totally get that NS10s serve their purpose. And the fact that they weren't even originally designed for pro sound applications makes them even more unique ( they were originally designed to be bookshelf speakers for home use).
My issue with them was that they burned my ears out so damned fast... and not even mixing loud at the FM Curve level either, but at a moderate mix volume of around 75 DB... they still fried me far faster than any other monitor did.
In those days, business was good, and I was mixing sometimes 3 different projects a day, starting as early as 9 am; but there's just no way that I could have mixed through NS10's the whole time.
So I would mix on something else ( I eventually ended up using Alesis M1 Studio Passives, an unexpected gem of a speaker which I grew to love and trust) and then occasionally I would switch over to the NS10s to reference - for short periods. If I had used only the Yamaha's, I would have been fried out by noon.
IMHO of course
DonnyThompson, post: 447562, member: 46114 wrote: My issue with
DonnyThompson, post: 447562, member: 46114 wrote: My issue with them was that they burned my ears out so damned fast... and not even mixing loud at the FM Curve level either, but at a moderate mix volume of around 75 DB... they still fried me far faster than any other monitor did.
That's really loud for NS10's, about 20db too loud, in my opinion.
75db on NS10's would destroy my ears real quick, too.
audiokid, post: 447556, member: 1 wrote: I own Avatones. When I first got them I thought, yuk! But once my ears got used to mixing without tweeters, including not adding high end to compensate, they are amazing. I would not want to mix without them now. They help me dial in mids like nothing I've experienced before. Once the mix is at a point of can't get it better, I switch on my other pairs with tweeters and finish off the mix.Works really well.
I'm thinking NS 10 has a similar science to them. They are so harsh, but the harsh is probably in the perfect spot humans don't like, thus helps us set a really good curve
Having owned them both, I would say they are very different in purpose and of course design.
Just in short, one has two drivers and crossover, the other one is a square single driver cube.
I did not like the Avantones, the ones I owned were the active ones.
The Avantones have that (for me) misguiding pointy upper-mid hump, damn it's sharp.
I heard them back to back against the Auratone 5C Re-issues, which is what I ended up selling my Avantones for.
Great mix's actually sound good on the Auratones vs nothing to me sounded good on the Avantones.
There's a little more low-mid information as well on the Auratones that helps keep things in perspective.
Kurt Foster, post: 447554, member: 7836 wrote: i had a pair of the HS5s to compare against ns10s. not the same. ns10s are one of my favorites. they sound like ass but when a mix sounds good on them it's right.
Yeah, I think people think just cause they have basically the same look (white cones being the main thing) that they're similar.
NS10 Well, horizontal…
NS10
Well, horizontal monitors is very bad if you want a wide sound stage that you can listen correctly within.
Simply because humans are very good at the horizontal level(Stereo sound stage) but very bad in vertical level. (We do not have any historical enemies in that direction..)
So the hf/Lf driver in a 2 way monitor laying down horizontal gives a varying hf/lf as you move around the mix spot.
BAD, BAD, BAD and you see it so often in pro studios, i think the main reason is that they shouldn't hide the big soffit mounted monitors.Or perhaps they think it look cool.
Yours / Toby