I would think the only thing that you might be in danger of blowing is if you have phantom power turned on? If you are feeding the Great River output from its + 4 DBm output to the Apogee's XLR input, make sure phantom power is turned off on the Apogee. If you have the Apogee set as + 4 at/for the XLR input and you have to crank the gain, that's fine. Gain should be cranked to at least 3/4 of capable gain.

You will be pleased to know that folks like Bob Clearmountain happens to really like the microphone preamplifiers in these Apogee's better than some others. So I'm not quite sure why you would want to have both? You can get Apogee's without microphone preamps, virtually designed to be fed from your Great River. I mean this is like, you can have toilet paper in both hands but you can only wipe your self sequentially unless you are that big?

Making love to Rupert Neve & Paul Walker
Ms. Remy Ann David

In the Duet manual, the following instructions tell me that the XLR line in is the correct setting.

Input:
This pop-up menu is used to select the input connector and level:
XLR Line +4dBu – A balanced (pro) line level input is accepted from the IN-1 and IN-2 (XLR) connectors; gain is fixed: maximum input level is 20 dBu.
XLR Line –10 dBV – A balanced (consumer) line level input is accepted from the IN-1 and IN-2 connectors; gain is fixed: maximum input level is 8 dBu.
XLR Mic – A balanced input is accepted from the IN-1 and IN-2 (XLR) connectors; gain is adjustable between 10 and 75 dB.

Yes, you have it connected correctly, but setting the input on the duet to XLR (which I believe is mic level) doesn't sit right with me.
How hard are you driving the GR's input and output?
You should be running it as close into the yellow led as you can without clipping, same with the output stage.
I imagine that's a bit difficult, being that it only has five before it clips!

Remy - My intention is to use the GR as the preamp and the Duet as the interface/converter. Am I way off course here? If I had THREE hands however, I'd certainly use two to wipe at the same time!
8-)

Bent - I'm not driving the GR much at all. If I do crank it, I'm almost all the way down with the gain on the Apogee. Sounds like I'm off base with this. Should I go back and set it at +4db again on the Apogee and try again. Realistically, I could never see using all the gain on tap unless I had a very weak ribbon mic waaaay far away.

Darn I wish I was smarter with this. You guys rock, thanks for the help so far.

Sounds like I'm off base with this. Should I go back and set it at +4db again on the Apogee and try again.

Yes, you've gotta use proper gain structure!

You gotta feed the GR all it can take, just avoid hitting clip.

Make it light up, show it who's boss!

Then you'll be cooking with gas!

Realistically, I could never see using all the gain on tap unless I had a very weak ribbon mic waaaay far away.

Take the ribbon statement out of the equation.

Use the gain, all of the 'gain on tap', always, and forevermore!!!

Wow, you're hardcore.
Ok, don't go anywhere...I'm gonna give this a try before we get pummeled by tornados n' crap.

BRB

You've got about 20 minutes.

Hit the GR as hard as it can stand, adjust the output of the GR to compensate for the level hitting the Apogee (lower the GR output if the apogee is getting slammed - you have to get to a common ground, where all the gear is speaking on the same level).

...and make sure everything's set to +4!

Ok, well that works (obviously) and it sounds good, however my gain dial on the GR (adjust in increments of 5db) is cranked all the way and the output level is at about 3/4.
I'm playing a 100 watt head through a 2x12 at about room volume.

So, I know that when I 'really' record, the amp will be much louder, but what about for softer applications like acoustic or vocals.

I mean, when I'm running the Apogee at straight XLR I've got more than enough room to 'grow', but this way it seems like I'm tapped out.

Also, I should note that when the Apogee is +4db line level XLR, it's fixed, you knew that, you pointed it out. However, when I'm straight XLR I have a gain adjustment in addition to the GR's. So I essentially have to balance the two.

I totally trust what you're saying, I'm just trying to make some sense of it. I didn't think that I'd have to run the input so hot all of the time.

???

Furthermore, I know you're right because when I set the Apogee back to XLR mic, it's loud as piss, but I get virtually no lights.

Hmmm

No lights on the GR that is..

when I set the Apogee back to XLR mic, it's loud as piss

That's because you're feeding a line level signal into an input that is expecting to be fed mic level (much lower).
Like I said, line out (GR) to line in (Duet).

You should not have to turn up the GR full blast to see a good signal there. I bet you're hearing a good bit of noise floor when you do that, as well.

You should be able to get more than enough gain from the GR, or any preamp for that matter, regardless what you're putting your mic on, within reason of course.

What mic are you using, and what's the placement?

Using a 57 right at the cab, off axis a bit. It's warm and smooth for sure, no complaints there. Not sure what noise floor is (sorry), but it's not noisy...if that's what you're getting at.

I digress a bit though. Of all the input stages on the GR (remember, in 5db steps), I can really utilize the top three, while adjusting the output knob accordingly, decreasing it as the input is cranked.

All in all, I can certainly live with this, it does sound good.

I'm not asking you to do the homework by any means, but in case you haven't seen or checked out the GR manual and descriptions, here you go. You can find the bit about the input stages on page 2 or 3 I believe.

http://www.greatriverelectronics.com/PDF/NVUsersGuideWeb04.pdf

Again, many thanks. Once all of this gets sorted out, I'll get some sound clips.

Lastly, for the purposes that we're talking about, I'm recording distorted guitar, again at about room volume.

I read it (and the Duet manual) immediately after reading your original post - I don't like flying blind!

But thanks for posting the link for others to check out.

Ok, one more thing before dinner. Consider this....

I think when I talked to the guy at GR he was saying NOT to use 1/4" he probably thought I was using the Apogee as a converter only...which I am now. He probably didn't realize that the Duet has preamps too. So could I by running XLR to the Duet from the GR be utilizing the Duet's pre's at the same time as the GR's?
I don't want to do that.

HA. I just talked to Apogee. When you run into the Duet via 1/4" or XLR Mic, you're utilizing its preamp, so all the while it was 'loud as piss' was because I was throwing another (potential 75db) of its pre's on TOP of the GR.
+4 and -10, it's just a converter.

I'm gonna try -10 next as it's the only thing left to do.

At least I'm on the right path.

8-)

When you run into the Duet via 1/4" or XLR Mic, you're utilizing its preamp,

I thought I said that already:

BeNt: That's because you're feeding a line level signal into an input that is expecting to be fed mic level (much lower).

You want to try the -10 input on the duet?
Why? You are not sending a signal out at -10, the GR sends out +4 balanced.
You are mixing and matching levels.

Take a look here:

I apologize for the real estate this picture takes up on-screen, but for clarification it needs to be this size.

Check this out:
Follow these steps to set this up correctly.
(You can substitute your voice for steps one and two, but you'll have to project a bit)
1) Setup a mic in front of the guitar amp, aim it straight into the driver, just off center of the dust cover.
2) Turn the amp up to a casual listening level.
3) Plug the mic into the GR and the GR via XLR into the Duet. Follow the picture for the connections and settings.
4) Start setting gain with both knobs on the GR all the way down.
5) While playing guitar (this is tricky, I know, just do hammer ons) turn the GR's Gain knob up until the LED's on the left hit the unity spot I notated.
6) While still playing, turn the output level up until the LED's on the right hit unity.
7) Does the Duet look the same as it does in the picture at bottom right?

While I'm on this topic, I'll throw another big pic up for you to check out...

Whoa! Nothing left but a pulpy mass on that question. :shock: I think it's covered. :lol:

Where could we go from here?

Just make sure he is not plugging the SM57 into 1/4 instrument. Everything is covered except that.

Welllll......

I'll have to post an entirely different picture if that's the case, won't I?
There will be no gear in that post, I promise!

:lol:

My head is a pulpy mess. :D

Ok, first off, wicked thanks Bent, you're going above and beyond what I would expect anyone to do.

Let me spout off a few things in regards to your reply (and pretty pictures).

1) Yes, you did say that about feeding the Duet a 1/4" or XLR, I just didn't process it correctly, I apologize.

2) One thing that I realized that I'm NOT doing (ooh, this is almost embarrassing) is I have another XLR cable running from the output of the GR into the input of the Duet, rather than just directly connecting them. *in voice of Borat* "That's niiiiiiice!" Man is that stupid, I'll fix it.

3) In the pics that you posted, you're saying to set the Duet at XLR mic, yes? But that's enabling its preamps too...I don't want to do that.

Regardless, I will go through the 'exercise' that you've outlined when I get home today.

Thank you also to the others that have chimed in along the way.

3) In the pics that you posted, you're saying to set the Duet at XLR mic, yes? But that's enabling its preamps too...I don't want to do that.

In the first picture, where I plainly state "Duet should be set to XLR LINE IN VIA MAESTRO", how can that possibly be misconstrued to reflect the statement you made above???

This is why...

sshack wrote: HA. I just talked to Apogee. When you run into the Duet via 1/4" or XLR Mic, you're utilizing its preamp, so all the while it was 'loud as piss' was because I was throwing another (potential 75db) of its pre's on TOP of the GR.
+4 and -10, it's just a converter.

So I'm basing that on what they (Apogee) are telling me.
The only thing that I can testify to is that it is significantly louder to the point that I'm at the other end of the spectrum in regards to the scale and usability of the GR.
When set to XLR Mic, I have to crank the GR way down as well as the gain on the Duet.

My initial recordings were done this way and they didn't sound bad, but it didn't seem right. And so, if this is the case, what are my options?
If not the best/proper way, then the lesser of the evils...?

sshack: what kind of fish are you expecting to catch here? NO TROLLING......err.....fishing! Since you plan on ignoring any advice that comes your way, just stop asking questions and go blow that Duet up an way you wish. Or, set the inputs on the Duet at +4 and be done with it. At the rate you're going, you might as well use your SoundBlaster card.

Hey, wow, thanks for piping in, but please show me where I've ignored anybody or anything? If anything I've repeatedly said thank you and that I trust Bent, I'm just trying to make sense and understand clearly.
Respectfully, I'm not going to take anyone's word at face value without having an element of understanding for myself lest I just end up always wandering around doing what other people say. It ain't gonna happen.

Furthermore, my objective here is to NOT blow up the Duet sir, hence my original inquiry that I'm going about this correctly. I think I've been more than communicative with what I'm trying to achieve, what steps I've taken, and how I'm interested in learning. I would also like to think that I've maintained a good (albeit enthusiastic) spirit about the whole thing.

And regarding your Soundblaster comment, you can take it and drop it deep into the water on which your beautiful city border. I'll gladly accept your help and corrective criticism, but not your ill toned unhelpful remarks.

Thank you.

You've entirely ignored all of Bent's previous posts where he has specifically indicated that +4 is the correct setting for your inputs on the Duet. There was never a mention in his posts otherwise unless specifically geared toward a purpose other than using your Great River preamp. The solution is simple: input on the duet set to +4, output from XLR out on the GR to XLR in at LINE LEVEL on the Duet. There is no way to mistake this. Why is it the right way? Because the GR outputs a +4 dBv. Does there need to be any further explanation?

No need to further explain, thank you.

I believe a part of the confusion is that on his pics above where he indicates how the Duet should be set, it's at XLR Mic not XLR+4db. XLR Mic enables the preamp on the Duet. (not a slam Bent, just an observation...I know that you meant to show the XLR +4).

The only reason I drag this out is because, as I posted earlier, setting the Duet at +4 means I have to crank the gain on the GR forcing me to use only the top 3 stages.
Like I said, I'm 'ok' with this if that's how it has to be, but wouldn't you question that too if in so doing I'm rendering the first 9 input stages on the GR as useless?

Not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just scratching a hole in my head trying to reconcile it all.

This doesn't render those levels useless. It enables you to put your mic in front of an amp at 130dB and not have the preamp clip out. As it has been pointed out before, consider this a bonus. More headroom is better and will result in a higher percieved clarity in your recordings than if you were to drive the Duet's inputs too hard which will result in a loud turd.

If you absolutely need more volume, there is an insert location on the GR. Plug a compressor in there and bring up the volume as needed. At least this way you will not be compromising the signal.

not a slam Bent

???

Actually, it kinda is. Seeing how I pointed out exactly what to set the input to, which is XLR LINE...

As far as using the top three stages of gain on the GR, you're killing me man! Why do you think there is adjustable gain on the GR (and every other preamp on the face of the planet)? Because every source is a little different? Mmmmmm. Yeah, that's the ticket.

I've spelled everything out to the best of my ability, even took the time to put together some useful pics and instructions. I hope they helped. Perhaps in the near future they will. If they don't help you, I'm sorry. I have no doubt, however, that this post will help someone else.

Good luck, this horse has been beaten enough.
If you have any other issues, I'll gladly help you - but on this I am done.

bent wrote:

not a slam Bent

???

Actually, it kinda is. Seeing how I pointed out exactly what to set the input to, which is XLR LINE...

Yes, you did...to which I said I understood. It was the pic that you posted which showed XLR Mic (which is not the line level on the Duet, the +4 and -10 are), this is what confused me for a moment. I looked only at the pic....it was my bad.

None the less, the horse is well bloody and I appreciate the help. There are no hard feelings, I've learned a lot.
I hope I get this kind of help next time.

OMG!

I can't believe I missed this topic for so long!

The confusion here is SIMPLE!!!!!!

SShack - listen REALLY carefully here - this is an important statement which will clear up your confusion regarding the picture that Bent KINDLY posted.

Bent does not own the Apogee. Therefore the picture that he used which indicates "XLR Mic" was a photo from Apogee's website. Since he couldn't go in and MANUALLY change this to XLR Line (+4) or whatever it's called in the settings box, he indicated it by typing RIGHT ABOVE where the box is. You see, you can't go in and change settings on a piece of equipment that you don't own!

Now, please for my own sanity, explain to me exactly how you have everything set up.

A 57 recording even a moderately played guitar amp fed directly into the GR and then out via +4dBV balanced outputs (on XLR) to the input of the Apogee at +4dBV should not require the gain to be cranked all the way up. In fact, with the output gain knob at about the half way point, the input gain knob should only need to be at about the half way point to get some near-clipping results on the Apogee.

Please tell me that everything has been cleared up by now and that I've wasted my breath in posting this...

Yep, waste of breathe.
8-)

Many thanks though I finally have this working quite well. I'm doing some acoustic stuff right now, but I hope to have up some basic electric guitar stuff soon. Each day gets better.

I'm also trying to space out the SHLEW of questions that I have for folks on this board. Don't want to wear out my welcome too quickly.

Thank you again...I appreciate the help.