i don't mean to poke fun or put down, but i feel strongly about this so hear goes.... What you say about music not living on is something that my parents used to say about the music the i listened to in my room, and i'm sure your parents also. In the 1960's people were saying about the beatles the same thing that you were saying about modern music. There is always a generational gap. You might now be listening to music that is coming out now in 50 years, but i find some of it to be equally impressive as the beatles. I guaruntee i will be listening to the Mars Volta for years. I'll occasionally put in a nirvana CD, and i've been listening to the Cure for forever and i will continue to. Elliot Smith will go down as will bright eyes. As far as popular music goes i'd say eminem will be listened to in the future. Of course you will not agree because you are in a later generation...it sucks when you grow old and you no longer understand what is so good about newer music. I think as a result of cheaper gear, much of the music that i listen to is available.... I listen to a lot of underground unsigned music that wouldn't have been made 25 years ago. Awake and Alert is a band that everyone should listen too....completely indie produced and is amazing. There is a lot of good music out there that will live on just like music has lived on from every generation. I can think of 5 or 6 incredible bands from each decade that define the music of that decade. The older generation stopped understanding music at some point, so to them all newer music is crap. Which a lot of it is, but probably an equal proportion to the crappy music of the 60's and early 70's. To my generation that decade in music is defined by the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, the Beach Boys, and the Rolling Stones. I know theres much more to it but thats the hard truth....sorry. Considering the hundreds or thousands of bands popularized during that time, that is an extremely small amount of music that lives on. I'm seriously not trying to offend anyone, i'm just saying that there is a cut off in every generation when people stop seeing new for what it is and just view it as crap. If your defininetion of good music is the beatles, then you really might view todays music as crap. Don't get my wrong, i own original vinyl of all but one beatles album...they are in my top 5 favorite bands of all time, but the other four are modern bands. Equipment has nothing to do with the quality of creativity. Whereas now even crappy bands have demo tapes, in the 60's there were just as many crappy bands, but not as many could afford a recording. This isn't a bad thing! Its good. It allows music to evolve, and the cream of the crop still rises to the top. the end

K

Kswiss wrote: How old are you Kurt?

Treena already said everything you would need to know to figure that out. :x
For some reason, that sh!t is really NOT cool in my book. I mean, How OLD are you? How many kids do you have? What is your sex life like.
You have nothing to gain from that, other than to use it to put someone down. Even after Treena was being nice enough to joke about it.
The End

you are right....it wasn't my intention to put him down...i was trying to make a point and i went about it the wrong way. I will edit the post. I am a young musician (22) in a band and we try to make creative music. I'm not saying that we will ever be a national band or will live on for 50 years, but i simply do not agree that no artists from my generation will live on. I find it offensive for someone to tell me that all the music that i personally listen to isn't up to their standards. They might not like it or they might not get it, but hundreds of thousands or millions of younger people do get it. And those are the people that will be listening to music in 50 years....... I apologize to Kurt though....i was just reading through the thread and got fed up....

BTW... as i said i'm 22, i have a kid on the way, married, and my sex life is excellent.

K

Kswiss wrote: you are right....it wasn't my intention to put him down...i was trying to make a point and i went about it the wrong way. I will edit the post. I am a young musician (22) in a band and we try to make creative music. I'm not saying that we will ever be a national band or will live on for 50 years, but i simply do not agree that no artists from my generation will live on. I find it offensive for someone to tell me that all the music that i personally listen to isn't up to their standards. They might not like it or they might not get it, but hundreds of thousands or millions of younger people do get it. And those are the people that will be listening to music in 50 years....... I apologize to Kurt though....i was just reading through the thread and got fed up....

BTW... as i said i'm 22, i have a kid on the way, married, and my sex life is excellent.

K

Hey Kswiss,

I'm what you may consider old but guess what. I love and listen to many new groups from today's music such as:

I'm a huge fan of "The Black Eyed Pea's", Nirvana, Nora Jones, Jet, Green Day, Bela Fleck. I have two 15 year old nieces who actually steal from my CD collection, they think their aunt Treena is pretty "with it" when it comes to my taste in music. I'm all over the map.

Maybe Kurt got to you because for some reason you would like to have his approval? I don't really know but I know this, if you like it and you want to listen to anything out there, whose stopping you, someone with an opinion on a recording forum?

BTW, congratulations on soon to be a father. I think you will see life in a different way once your child arrives. Things like your favorite music and some one not liking your taste will seem very insignificant once that baby is in your arms.

Teach them to be open minded and love all things music, all the good in music, there is plenty to go around!

Also, don't forget the impact Motown has had on many artists and forum members here at RO.

Motown is one of my most favorite of all times and has influenced my music abilities in all aspects.

Take care and thanks for expressing your opinion. I would suggest, in the future, to debate the topic, not the person posting or responding to the topic. Some things are hard not to take personal but often we are so compassionate about what we like, we forget others have a right to their feelings a well and we shouldn't judge them for those feelings or get personal when having an open discussion. Kurt never insulted you personally, it appears you have taken "insult" and wish to defend the music you like, that's cool, just allow Kurt his opinion as well!

Have a great day and keep listening to what you like, try some Motown too!

Treena

Kswiss wrote: married, and my sex life is excellent.

Damn, I need to meet your wife. My sex life sucks at the moment. :lol:
Just having a joke at your expense.

just so no one thinks it was a baseless attack....this is what i was referring to. i don't know how to do the quote thing but this is what Kurt said. I wasn't personally attacking him just disagreeing with him the wrong way.....

"Anyone who wanted to get into the recording business on either side of the glass, had to do something to impress these people. You had to sing like Elvis or Roy Orbison, play like The Funk Brothers, or the Wrecking Crew ie: Glen Campbell, Barney Kessel, Billy Strange, Hal Blaine and Carol Kaye among others ... or you had to have ears like Geoff Emrik, Bruce Swedine or Phil Ramone ... and some of the best records ever made came about. Now days, all you have to do is plunk down a few hundered bucks for a potty studio and your an "artist" or a "producer" .... and just listen to the mess that has come about.

Nowadays, I don't see or hear the same level of passion or quality in the product. None of the stuff being produced today by anyone, will live on for 50 years like the Beatles recordings have .. or like much or the "Top 40" from the 60's and 70's ... In the end, I am sure this will be proven.

Every coin has two sides and I am sure there are positives that the advent of "affordable" gear bring to the table. I just can't, for the life of me, seem to see them and I have been around to live in both worlds. Believe me the music world in not better off for digital technology. I don't hold technology alone responsible for the condition of the business. Much of the responsibility lies with the bean counters who have taken over the record companies. But I don't believe anyone can sucsessfully argue that the advent of affordable gear, has raised the bar in terms of how intelegent or talented a person needs to be in order to call themselves a recording engineer or a producer.

"Elitism" is not what it's about. That's just a divisive term most commonly used to inflame opinion and take the focus off the question, which is, "Is the business better now that 25 years ago?" I do not see myself or others like myself as being elitist at all. Do we know we are good at what we do? Sure we do ... but that in it's self doesn't make me/us feel like we're better than everyone else overall. I'm just a damn fine producer and musician ... that's all. I have great gear sure ... but that doesn't mean I'm rich .... it just means that instead of something else, I'm busy figuring out a way to get that next box I need or want ... It's priorities, that's all. "

this is Kswiss again....

IMHO i think that digital recording has allowing a lot of unheard music to come out....because the random kid can sit in his basement and create without worrying how he's going to sell his craft to pay recording expenses. Just like some of the best artists that don't have a buy in have been discovered after they died, i'm sure that the same will start to hold true for music. Poets don't need money to prove that they can write poetry, and all artists need is a paper and paint. Now musicians have that paper and paint.....they can create at their lesiure...and not just acoustic songs. In 100 years some kid will go to a thrift store and buy an ancient CD player to play some CD's that have his great grandfathers name on them, and find a songwriting gem.....i am sure this will be proven. Just because an artform is more accessible doesn't water down the talent pool....like i said before the really talented ones still rise to the top, but there might be some incredible untapped talent that some 15 year old kid is turning into art while sitting at his $200 digital recording setup. My two cents....

K

Store this in the For What its Worth department.

I'm a high school teacher and have created a class in music tech and composition. We have this discussion re: 60-70's vs. 90-00's and invariably both sides are correct. There was crap then, there was incredibly inventive, ground-breaking stuff then, there is crap now, there is incredibly inventive, ground-breaking stuff now. The only thing truly different is the accessibility to the technology so there's more of both now. The difficulty is accessing it because of distribution and airplay both far more controlled by the corporate machines now than in the 60's-70's. The plus side of now is the internet where global advertising/ distribution is possible, but rising above the other 10 billion sites is the problem.

Almost no pop group can be judged in classical, musical terms of "good" music that is meant to be universal and pass the test of time. (please note I said almost- I think some will- don't ask who) Especially today, the medium is targeted for a far more specific target audience. The majority of the students in my building listen to (at most) 1 or 2 similar styles of music. They are marketed to and manipulated into thinking this way.

Their musical discourse sounds like:
"X" (group) rocks, they're the greatest thing since Nirvana and "Y" sucks!
I will sometimes listen to "Z" but don't own anything by them except a downloaded MP3 file.

The beauty that earlier generations had (and I know Kurt understands this) is that music was a much wider world. Black and White music was played by the same radio stations. Radio airplay was perhaps influenced by corporate grease, but not completely controlled by it. Local bands got local airplay on commercial stations if they were good. (the culling process) Good (or at least popular) groups stayed together and made enough money to produce a vinyl recording through a studio and mastering house. (sometimes with a radio stations help) They usually started with a 2 sided 45 rpm and then moved to the great world of long-play 33 rpm album. when they "made it".

What bothers me most about today and this industry is that now, when we're at a time when global communication, interaction, discourse and the sharing of musical and non-musical ideas can be accomplished with a click of a mouse, the machine that controls most of the popular culture in this country (and the western world) is slicing and dicing it into target markets at the expense of this sharing.
The student who is open to world music, rap, funk, country, rock, grunge, blues, fusion, metal, etc... and is willing to work to find the best of those styles is almost non-existent. I'd venture to say less than 5% of the population. They have more discretionary income than any other population at any other time in history and they are generally horrible consumers of quality.

My .02

Well said Phil!

And maybe this will brighten your day: I fall into that 5%. I will openly listen to anything, no matter what genre its from. That doesn't mean I won't tear it to shreds though. I'm willing to analyze all music for what its worth - in a sense put myself into the writer's shoes. Every song has some type of story; some people will claim their songs don't have stories behind them, but if they would just think about what made those words come out, then they would have a different opinion on their own stuff.

I wish I had more time for the Audio Projects forum here; I had a lot of fun doing my 3-hour critique of a 5 minute song there.

Thanx Phil! As always, very close proximity to the REAL WORLD (pun intended) makes for a response right on the money. I'm no curdmudgeon...I listen to a lot of different stuff.My step-son is a drummer.His bands usually play all original material and they do play OUT....We have this discussion regularly about the very narrow sub-catagories of essentially the same genre of music. And its true, the kids now will like one particular sub-group as opposed to another sub-group that on the surface sounds exactly the same.Whatever the difference may be, it certainly escapes me for the most part.In my early music days it was certainly cut-and-dried.There was Soul.There was Rock'n'Roll. There was ROCK. There was Country.There was Jazz. There was easy listening.There was Top Forty.There was Classical. Sure there were sub-genres in each catagory, but they were easily indentifiable and easily related to the general catagory.It certainly was easier to navigate through a record selecting process in the store.My father had a large record collection.There were many many clasical pieces,orchestral and Italian Tenor.....There were ALL of the Frank Sinatra albums, as well as Big Band Swing and a few other popolar singers' recordings.....I wish I still had that Bobby Darren album....and there were even some early rock'n'roll records....Chubby Checker, Bill Haley and of course Gene Pitney and Roy Orbison. And then I brought the Beatles,Stones,Jimi,Moby Grape,The Seeds,Jefferson Airplane....into the house and we didnt talk much after that.

My point being there WILL be a generation gap in music appreciation. BUT....I will aver, that MORE of todays kids like the old skool rock'n'roll and hard rock than the parents like the new skool stuff.
As for being able to judge whats going to be playing 50 years from now, its really speculation at this point of the game, and while I do agree that some of todays music MAY make it forward to that point in time,I think its not going to be easy to predict who, unlike stating that the Beatles will be heard then.Beatles,Stones,Doors,Who,Floyd.....2055....all still on the charts...all still selling well.Original copies of Revolver go on EBAY for a shade under 14 million.And Elvis was seen driving an old Caddy in downtown Detroit.

Davedog
The end of your post makes me want to kick myself one more time. I really should have taken better care of those U2 records I bought in 1979 :cry:

John

Davedog wrote: Original copies of Revolver go on EBAY for a shade under 14 million.

What the F*ck?! :?
Just imagine how much a pet rock from 1979 is gonna be worth? :lol: O.K., well I'm off to E-bay :lol:

What a thread - its all over the map and some of it could be a book-of-the-month club material. Here's my 2 cents:

- culling trolls - EXCELLENT idea! these twits get some sort of sick gratification from seeing "their name in lights" or at least digging up as many responses as possible. Fry 'em I say!

- cheap gear? Its a fact of life! With many people turning there basement into home studios its now possible to produce reasonable quality product without the major overhead of the major studios.. is it as good ? of course not - but its close enough to serve a number of different purposes. Has it harmed the industry? not at all - if anything it has made audio recording more accessable to many people and widened the consumer base which in term will lead to more R&D and better products down the road. ITs like desktop publishing - where everyone thought they could become an inexpensive publisher overnight - well no - graphic designers did not go out of business and the sky didn't fall. In fact the business of graphic design has increased by leaps and bounds..

- BTW if I am making a serious recording I wouldn't dream of making it in my basement or buying cheap gear - I would go to a studio that has all of the gear and expertise.

I'm just personally glad for it. I have as much admiration for Wexler and all the old guys as much as anyone. Love that music, love the vibe, I've stood in those studios and had conversations with the musicians and songwriters. For that I consider myself fortunate.

But I think most major label music out now is awful, and the stuff they put out that is good isn't exactly getting eaten up by the public. But I get so much music out there from itunes, myspace, cdbaby....sifting through mags and fansites. Discovering new artists all the time. People who I consider to be 100 times more passionate about music than anything in mainstream. Even drifting back to the old days, the best music to me wasn't always the most popular. Remember Hendrix opened for the Monkees. And I liked the Monkees. Big Star was completely ignored and they're one of my favorite bands of all time. The Raspberries. Even bands with legendary status now like the Velvet Underground and even Cheap Trick were largely ignored and overshadowed in what is considered their heyday.

What about the 80s....everyone acts like they like the Pixies now, but I was there. They didn't. The Replacements, Husker Du. All washed out in favor of Duran Duran.

So I'm not really concerned if the public is listening to Yankee Hotel Foxtrot 25 years from now or not. It's just a testament to how bad their taste is. :D And I'll still be listening.

A lot of bands that I find through these channels nowadays wouldn't be able to do it.

Just to be a little rebellious and defiant, ;) I think a lot of studio engineer types dug their own graves. there's no question that they are often times more educated than the musicians they're recording about the process of making a record, but the overwhelming assumption causes a brick wall to go up around the ears of these guys when it comes to listening to musicians. At least I had that problem when I was younger.

That's the reason I'm trying to learn it. That's why I'm building a home studio. I don't want to know how to mix and be an engineer. I'm doing it because I'm an artist. And I grew tired of these kinds of conversations:

"ok, play that dry, take the delay pedal off"
"but this part has delay"
"we'll add it later, we have an alesis"
"that's great but this is an analog delay with the bucket brigade chip and it has the exact sound I want"
"we can't fix it later or take it out if you record it that way"
"I don't want to fix it or take it out!!!"

LOL!! I will not under any circumstance have these sorts of conversations with people that I'm paying. When I was young I didn't know any better.

Also I knew several guys who went to school to be proper engineers. I've heard stories of internships where they're fetching coffee and cleaning up piss and cocaine of rock stars all day and getting treated like crap. And engineers can do that because the market is so vicious for the young guys. There is no amount of money in this world that will make me degrade myself to be treated like that by an audio engineer. We're not talking Eddie Kramer here, we're talking about the house engineers, although often times at rather prestigious studios. Still, not worth it to me.

SturmerChilton wrote:

"ok, play that dry, take the delay pedal off"
"but this part has delay"
"we'll add it later, we have an alesis"
"that's great but this is an analog delay with the bucket brigade chip and it has the exact sound I want"
"we can't fix it later or take it out if you record it that way"
"I don't want to fix it or take it out!!!"

wow if I had an experience like that I would probably find me another engineer too.. but not because he didnt want to print the effect, but because he didnt think to put your effect into the chain to add later.

No printing effects especially with a paying client. But unless they are paying you to produce as well as engineer, then they should go with what you, the artist, wants unless it is just going to suck. Even then, the customer is always right, especially if they fight you in favor of a sucky sound. If its that bad, then kindly ask them not to credit you on their release!!

But you sort of hit another hot button... customer service. Many many MANY engineers fail because they have zero people skills.

You get a guitar player that wants his delay on the track .... (never mind that you can use the exact same delay in a send return loop when mixing with control and perhaps even as a stereo effect instead of on the track in mono) .... then you have another guitar player who wants his flanger on the track ( and never mind that both guitar players are playing a G chord in the same position, so you can't define which is which in the mix) ... a bass player who wants to record through his Sans Amp with a load of distortion .... all who want to be in control of their own tones (irregardless of how the total sounds when combined) .....

Now the clients are paying .... but it's the engineer who is blamed when everything sounds like ass. Those 2 guitar players would have been better off working out who would play that G chord low and who would play it high, so it would define better in the mix .... but of course the engineer doesn't have time to sort that all out because he's too busy messing with the delays flangers and Sans Amp to get to it.

And this is why kiddies, we get all these recordings that sound like crap ... guitar players who want to hear it mixed like the are standing in front of the amp stack, drummers who want to hear every nuance of their ride cymbals ... If these people would just let the engineer do his or her job and communicate with them what they want from the end product .... they would get a better recordings in the long run.

But again nooooo .... because anyone with 600 bucks can get a mic and a potty studio and all of a sudden, they're a producer ....

I know it's not life threatening surgery but IMO there are waaaaaaay to many people with no talent, that have recording equipment in their hands. Perhaps this stuff has gotten too cheap .. ???

First of all, I am a guitarist as my first talent.

I used to hate it when people would adjust my settings (mainly because most of my knobs were broken off anyway and I had to guess where that round pot was), but once I started doing live sound for beands is when I started to understand. It was actually at my first show and we started soundcheck. First thing I noticed: Guitar == awesome on stage, shitty on PA. I felt like I had one of those life-changing revealing thoughts (are they epiphanies?). Anyway, I walked out from behind the console, made some adjustments at the amp and on a couple of his effects, nearly got laid out, and convinced him to take his wireless-equipped self out to the seating and play a little and listen to how it sounded there. His jaw dropped. Sometimes, you have to convince artists that things need to be changed under certain circumstances. Now, in my "Guidelines" brochure that all my clients get, I have a rule that says "If you don't want your settings and/or setup messed with, don't call me."

Those 2 guitar players would have been better off working out who would play that G chord low and who would play it high,

The above is an amazing truth. If two gtr players work out complimentary arrangements using crappy gtr tones it will sound ten times better than a perfect gtr tone arranged and/or played poorly

all who want to be in control of their own tones

IMHO no one truly is or can be in control of their own tone anyway. One's tone or sound is not something they envision or concieve. It is a reflection of their personality and soul. Not sure why people don't understand this. The equimpent is just the vehicle from the soul to the audiance. This is very easy to prove... Take a gtr player and let him play through 50 different combos of amps/cabs/guitars. There may be differences between sounds but a large amount of "tone" will follow the player with each combination of equipment. Hand Jimmy Page or Jeff Beck any amp or guitar you wish. It won't matter, Jimmy will still sound like Jimmy.

There are many tracks by the likes Beatles, Led Zepplin, old bands and new where there is at least one gtr track where the tone technicially stinks. However, once you give it a nice thick coat of the player's soul and emotion it is suddenly a good tone. Its all in the hands whether guitar, bass or mixing console.

I know it's not life threatening surgery but IMO there are waaaaaaay to many people with no talent, that have recording equipment in their hands. Perhaps this stuff has gotten too cheap .. ???

I think its always been this way. Its more apparent now due to the massive amount of communication that can be achieved and increased population as well as cheap equipment. Cheap equipment is a natural evolution of technology. There is nothing we can do about it. I remember when a hand held calculator was around $50 in the mid 70's and only professional "math doers" deserved one. On the other hand, the music business is and always has been a self-cleaning oven. Doesen't matter who you are or what you think. The business culls those that aren't up to snuff. People don't do it per se, it just happens like a snake shedding its skin each year. I was told that by a semi famous musician back in the 80's and it has been true to this day. I'm not talking about business politics or the elite or whats hot now. It has nothing to do with that and everything to do with being able to keep up with the rest of the musicians or engineers around you.

For anyone just starting out and coming up in music... There are times when you should defend your creative position and stand firm. This is the fertile ground where fresh ideas germinate and should never be discouraged. However, it is just as important to give from time to time and listen to an old pro (whoever it may be in each case). Many times, it may not seem so, but they also had the dreams you now carry and they are trying to make the trip a little easier for you. How do you know when to do which? You don't, thats what makes it interesting...

Best regards-

Karbo

There is nothing on this Earth that will ever convince me that this phenomenom of musicians wanting complete control over their individual creative process started with the advent of affordable gear. Thats simply an abominal statement.This has ALWAYS been the case from the first moment the recording light went on.

And the good engineer finds ways around these problems without too much upset of the PAYING TALENT....Another solution is to stop the session and discuss the value of a producer.Of course, in reality, this should have happened BEFORE the recording process started.

Great engineers have to put away their OPINIONS and their EGOS in order to effectively give the paying client what they want. IF the engineer is hired as PRODUCER then this is a whole nother ballgame.

As an engineer on MANY of these kind of sessions, I always felt it was in my best interest to teach as well as facillitate.And to do it without a condescending manner.You think tracks are hard to get when the novice bands trust you...try it with a bit of apprehension on their parts!

None of these scenarios has anything to do with the quality or the price of gear. It has to do with the ability to work within the confines of a particular situation without regard to personal opinion.

I always appreciated well rehearsed and higher level musicians as they had gone through the learning process and had gotten a handle on what worked and what didnt in the studio setting.This didnt mean that they were immune to ridiculous ideas and 'why can't I' questions...its just that they were fewer in number and more pointed in direction.

I can honsetly say that of the bands I recorded and worked with,most of the players went much higher in their abilities and their desires to make better records and most still record and play.So the lessons were learned well.

I wonder how many would have given up if I had simply told them to not bother when they were still young naive jackasses with crappy amps and guitars and barely a clue.....Good thing it was never beneath me to do what I could to help. I got a chance to watch musicians grow and hear some actually good music.

Of course it doesnt do anything for my personal library or my personal resume.But always get a real "Howdy ,how'ya been' and a heartfelt handshake when I run into em...

Lifes about paths....and theres bridges on most paths....

The idea of being polite and encourging those who should not be encouraged, for the sake of being a "great guy" that everyone says "Hi" and waves to, is so phony, that it makes me want puke when I think of it! I personally have enough respect for myself not to need those types of relationships.

How many of us came to become recordists just so we could be a button pushing monkey simply recording what the musicians (if indeed that is what they are) in the next room, without offering artistic input? Not many I would bet. The capper is that if the recording sounds like ass ... it's the engineer or the studio who gets blamed ... even if all they did was record what was played.

Another thing I have noticed in all my years in the control room .... The really talented individuals who come your way will be the ones who are open minded and who will not attempt to micro manage the sessions. The best players and singers I have worked with, have always just let me do my thing, while they did theirs.

Then there are those in the middle who are smart enough to take direction and advice. Last there are those again in the middle, who ask you to listen to their stuff (because they think you'll be impressed) and when you start pointing out the problems, they get offended and go off in a huff. Sad truth is their records would probably sound and do a lot better if they took your advice.

The ones who are morons (or what we call "gurms") are the ones who whine about not being able to use their own stomp box's and how the tone in the CR is different than what comes from the amps .... This all leads back to what Karbo had to say about the sound being in the hands or the fingers. I have noticed the same thing at jam sessions, where one guitar player cant get a good tone to save his life but the next one up makes the same rig and guitar sound amazing!

Bottom line is there are far more "gurms" around these days and a few of them could use a little discouraging. Perhaps they should go back to trade school and learn something where they can contribute something worthwhile they can use to make their livings, like how to wire a house. A cursory listen on the RO Audio Projects page only serves to confirm this to me.

I think that all the cheap gear seems to be making it worse and the cheaper the gear gets, the worse the music gets, the dumber the questions get and the more the gurms crawl out of the woodwork. It seems to be feeding itself as we stand by blithely watching it, allowing it to go down the crapper, without a word.

The problem is there's so much garbage out there to wade through, I can't find anything good before I get disgusted and give up. I bet I'm not alone in this and the record companies wonder why the profits keep shrinking?

I hear a lot of people say things like, "everyone deserves to get some encouragement", politically correct lip service which only serves to make people look like they are nice. But the reality is, some people need to know the truth. Only about 10% of the population is musically inclined ... and even less are mechanically and scientifically inclined as well. The rest of you, (I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you) really have no business doing music, or being involved in it's associated industries. This is why the pop music culture that was so rich in the 50' / 60's / 70's, has vanished. The talent pool has become diluted. To many people interested in the celebrity and the money and not enough of them interested in the music for the music's sake. Now it's all about looks and who you know/ blow etc.

So come on everyone ... grow some balls and start telling people what you really think. Hop over to the Audio Projects page and tell a few "GURMS" that they are not going to Hollywood. Let's all give support and encouragment to those who show us they have talent while at the same time kindly putting others who don't (and ourselves) out of their misery.

We really need to stop perpetuating the myth that with the next magic plug in and firewire box, that even the kids who wear the helmets and ride the short bus can be a recording engineer. Let's get real.

Amen to that Kurt.
I too have worked with what I will refer to as "give me, give me, give me musician's". Most of the time it is a guitar player that is "anything" but spectacular. Bitching about "his" sound, (which by the way SUCKS). Funny enough it's always some Douchbag with a solid state Crate amp, crying. :cry: That the sound won't sound like his tone if he doesn't use "his" amp.
And I also agree that you can't encourage some guys. There are "real jerks" out there who "think" that if you are behind them, then you are beneath them. And these guys are the worst.
And I too have worked with the same type of "good" musician. And you wish the session would never end. Some guys are such a blast to record with, and I love to tell guys, "Hey man, that sounds great". But for some reason, some guys have it, and some guys don't have a clue.
As for the guy's with no clue. I get sick of those "muther f*!+%'s"
Record yourself :twisted:

Honestly I don't know what cheap gear has to do with any of this - its more a preponderance of cheap manufactured musical "talent".

As a musician myself for the past 30 years - its a challenge to find really good music out there. Back in the 70's there were just amazing musicians that could blow the roof off (including all the high school bands). When disco hit, a lot of musicians (and unions) took a beating as it was cheaper for bar owners to pipe in crap music etc.. after the unions got wiped out most bands were at the mercy of the bar owners who (to this day) would pay NOTHING to give you the "privilege" of hauling your gear to their stinking club, fill it with all your paying friends, and the enjoyment of playing for free and hauling your gear back again.. so there's not a great incentive to be a professional musician these days- and don't even get me started on rap, grunge, punk and other talentless forms of music...

Having said all that, there is light at the end of the tunnel - music always goes in cycles (from crud to cool) and I think as people are putrified by the awful "product" out there - we are about due for a rennaiscence.. Cripes - my 14 year old listens to King Crimson, Led Zepplin and other monster bands from the 70's.. and without coaching from me! There is hope for civilization after all :o)

fill it with all your paying friends, and the enjoyment of playing for free and hauling your gear back again

On a lighter note... When booking my band at clubs I used to say we played for free and that the money the club was paying was for setting up and tearing down... [grin]

Karbo

Kurt Foster wrote: The idea of being polite and encourging those who should not be encouraged, for the sake of being a "great guy" that everyone says "Hi" and waves to, is so phony, that it makes me want puke when I think of it! I personally have enough respect for myself not to need those types of relationships.

Another point of contention.

Kurt, obviously you have paid your dues and are a fine engineer. You are known in the circuit, and you can afford with your credentials and established track record to pick and choose who you will and will not record. You can sit back and call people gurms or whatever and be impolite to folks whom you know will not be putting bread on your table anyway.

There is no changing my opinion on this when I say that if you were just starting your career today, you wouldnt get very far with that attitude. You can do it now of course, and more power to you.

There is a way to handle less than desireable clients without making them hate you. Its called customer service and you dont have to compromise your convictions by politly steering people in the right direction. Sales people do it all the time and there is nothing wrong with it.

We're talking apples and oranges here. Its not about personal relationships, it is about business relationships.

I, for one, am not about to run my paying customers off for their inexperience. If they suck, then it is my job to educate them and make them sound good.

Negativity does not sell. In my experience of being both philanthropist and businessman I find this to be true in both cases.

Hi Kevin and others-

We're talking apples and oranges here. Its not about personal relationships, it is about business relationships.

This is why you're debate with Kurt may not reach common ground. There are two different subjects here. I don't think he is condesending but more irritated at the state of affairs not customer service.

One subject (apples) is about doing good business and whatever it takes to get a happy returning customer for no other reason than staying in business and remaining profitable...

The other (oranges) is how depressing it can be to deal with client after client who has no business being there or no clue that they are in the wrong business. From a customer service/business stand point of course you have to do what it takes to keep 'em encouraged and happy. That by no means makes it an enjoyable job for the recordist. However, it does depend on the person and how it affects them. Some it bothers, some it doesen't. Hence, the debate.

I know it's true for me and probably many other recordists/engineers that they once dreamed of recording decent or good stuff 12 hours a day for a living. Heck, I would have been happy with 40% decent and 60% crap but sometimes if feels like 5% good and 95% crap. If you polish turds all day long every day and on top of that have some inexperienced band member trying to undo what little bit of shine you can possibly achieve you end up irritated at some point. Though it may come out harsh I think this is at least in part what Kurt means. Since no one has the balls to tell a musician he isn't cut out to be a musician and the musicians entire self worth is wrapped doing it their way, the problem is perpetuated. There is no test to pass, no degree needed nothing to graduate from. In many other professions one is going to be told pretty much spot on if they can't pull their weight or are not qualified for the position.

Which brings me to a moral question. If a musician truly isn't up to snuff, should we continue to take every penny he/she has that could have been spent on their true talent whatever it may be? Should we keep patting them on the back giving them hope to hang on to in the name of our personal gains? Dreams are nice; I have chased many and lived several over the last 42 years but there are times I would have been better off if people were just honest with me. We all get a finite number of sunsets, I would prefer to spend them wisely and not waste them. If that takes hurting my feelings once in awhile, I can deal with that.

Great disscussion

Karbo

I do understand being an engineer and not wanting your name on a crappy product. I've seen many bands/artists turned down for this reason. I also understand about discrepancies of band members wishes and blame coming to you for it not sounding good. Those things don't apply to me. I'm a bit of a control freak. I like being in the front seat or the back seat, and I have been in both and work well in both. I'm not going to get into an argument with another guitarist or a bassist. Either you're in charge or I am. I fancy myself more of a producer rather than an engineer. So if I have an idea I want the engineer to do what he has to do to get that idea across. I won't particularly argue with an engineer about his methodology of doing that because he knows better than I do. Because of that I take full responsibility and blame if I wind up with a crap product.

For another example if I have a real ratty sounding tone and I have an engineer telling me to do this and that to change the ratty tone. I want a ratty tone. I'm playing a jazzmaster through a pignose for this track, and that is exactly what I want. I don't want beautiful sustainey les paul/marshall sounds here. Second guess me all you want but keep it to yourself. BUT again, I understand because I do know there's a lot of artists who will put a jazzmaster through a pignose and EXPECT it to sound like a les paul through a marshall and get mad at the engineer if it doesn't. LOL! That has to be the most frustrating thing of all time.

Regarding "gurms", I have a feeling that Kurt and most pro producers and engineers out there would have taken one listen to the Replacements, Guided by Voices and the Misfits and said "these guys are morons and don't know what they're doing, please get them out of my sight"

I'm for one glad someone took the chance. That music brings a lot of fulfillment to my life. So remember, sucking is all relative. :D

karbomusic wrote:
Which brings me to a moral question. If a musician truly isn't up to snuff, should we continue to take every penny he/she has that could have been spent on their true talent whatever it may be? Should we keep patting them on the back giving them hope to hang on to in the name of our personal gains?
Karbo

I have a kid in college, so morally correct or not, my answer to that is 'Yes'. I have to make a living. I would rather turn knobs for a sucky-not-ever-going-to-make-it band than work for some corporation as a stuffed suit, or flip burgers, or drive a truck...or ...or ...or...

Besides, who am I to say whether some musician and their music sucks or not? Who am I to take their dreams away from them. Trust me the cruel hard world will do that for them in time - either that or they will become the next U2 or Talking Heads.

If I turn them away because I dont like them or they arent up to "my standards of what is good" then the guy down the street will take the job...

This why I say it is apples and oranges. Kurt and obviously some others here are "big time" and do not have to deal with the bourgeois. But they're real, and they are out there with their checkbooks and bank accounts and they arent going away any time soon. Look at the music listing of myspace, or mp3.com... they are out there by the millions looking for that one coveted position at the top. Most are doomed to fail or die trying. Gotta respect the effort though.

Hey, dont get me wrong, I would love to spend my day with seasoned pros, but face it, there arent that many positions open in that league, and the waiting list is long and there are only so many years any of us have here on earth to do what we enjoy.

I could get indignant about the "major leagues" belittling of the minors, but today I am too good for that. I do plan on spending my life spreading good cheer and hope about. I will leave the brutality to the A&R reps and high-fallutin' engineers to play the part of the grim-reaper.

SturmerChilton wrote:
Regarding "gurms", I have a feeling that Kurt and most pro producers and engineers out there would have taken one listen to the Replacements, Guided by Voices and the Misfits and said "these guys are morons and don't know what they're doing, please get them out of my sight"

:mrgreen:

Interesting... Thanks for the input...

I have a kid in college, so morally correct or not, my answer to that is 'Yes'.

I gave you a loaded question on that one. Sorry... But since the answer is yes, couldn't that be also perceived as elite or unfair? Yes is probably the correct answer, but I was turning the tables a bit just for discussion sake.

Kurt and obviously some others here are "big time" and do not have to deal with the bourgeois.

I guess I don't understand why the difference in opinion results in those being called "big time". I don't think that the posters on either side of the debate state what they say because they think they are big time but how they happen to feel... Keep in mind, I'm sort of an observer in this one, as I can see great points on both sides. Just providing different possible was of looking at things as we all are..

edit:

Besides, who am I to say whether some musician and their music sucks or not? Who am I to take their dreams away from them.

Thats a tough call probably because there is a huge difference between talent and being famous. My main point is not about who has the right from an artistic sense but offering some truth talent wise. It us up to who hears it to both ignore it and also be humble enough to check and see if there is any truth in it. Almost impossible to debate this one as it has so very many angles...

Best regards-

Karbo

Kevin,
Thanks for all the nice remarks re: ME!

I think see the difference in how you and I view the issue.

You look at it as a business, in which case it is impossible to argue with your point of view. I would expect the same from any vendor.

But with music, this is not a good thing. The problems all the record companies are having are because the bean counters are running the zoo instead of people who are passionate for the music, like Wexler and Dowd.

The idea of recording anything just for a buck is very objectionable to me. In the past, musicians and bands often had to submit demos or audition for a recording studio owner or engineer before they could book a date. This was the case even in the smaller "demo palace" type rooms. No engineer would be caught dead working with gurms ... it was a matter of pride. But nowadays, partially because there is so much inexpensive gear available, everyone is a recordist / engineer / producer ... often without a clue or any taste to speak of. The sense of aesthetics and production values that used to be handed down from the mentor to the student went out the window and now almost anything gets recorded. The people doing this, have no pride in their work and often do anything for a buck, including stealing clients by undercutting the competition. When this kind of thing starts happens in any business segment, it is never good. When ever you reduce the equation to simply money, you're screwed!

I look at recording and music as an artistic endeavor that affords the opportunity for a pay day once in a while ... and as such, I really don't (and never have) given a flying rats ass whether I offend some individual from time to time. You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet and people who are easily offended, have no business in a field where rejection and criticism is the norm. I say if someone sucks, do them a favor and tell them. This will accomplish one of two things. It will spur them on to work harder and get better or it will send them crying for mommie ... either way it's a win / win. But you do no one any favors by telling a gurm how good it sounds and how much you look forward to their returning to your facillity.

Artistic considerations always come first for me. I don't care if everyone likes me or if they come back to record with me again. The ones who really get it, return because they understand this and since they are not gurms/ morons .... I can get along well with them.

And .... this is the reason after running a commercial studio for almost 10 years, I decided to close the doors. The talent pool was getting more and more shallow .... and I was tired of dealing with jerks who didn't have a clue.

lol -

we agreed on something, even in disagreement!!!

Kurt, I didnt make the industry like it is and neither did you, and I think we can agree on that as well. We know all about where those problems started. The industry has indubitably changed, and I have had to change with it to avoid the horrors of corporate America. Its bend, try a new business model and roll with it, or pack your lunch and head to the factory everyday.
Unless you find another angle of course.

Oh and dont get me wrong... it is about the art for me as well. I have to hold my nose a lot too... and nope, call me a hypocrite if you want to, but I do not do rap either.... unless there is something different about it... then I might...might do it.
And the first thing I tell potentials is to not waste my time unless they have practiced nice and hard. Dont come in my place and scratch your ass and waste my time.
I'm 40 years old. You betchya there is some new stuff I am not too keen on, but hell, when I was 18, the engineers hated me and my bands music too... its all relative.
So yea, I am a businessman, but I got my scruples too. I consider myself an artist as well.

We're just looking at this from two different standpoints. You are in one place, I am in another... both legitimate. IMHO

sort of reminds me of the old corporate proverb of the monkeys in the tree. The ones at the top looks down and see's nothing but smiling faces. The ones at the bottom look up and see something else entirely.

God prevent me from viewing the world that way. I like my humble place in the industry:)

edit: I dont know what kinds of clients you were getting, but I have had some clueless clients who were an absolute dream to work with. I guess it is in my nature to nurture, because by the end of some of these sessions I seem to be able to have these folks believing and doing anything I say. I suppose that talent is an art in itself. Its the Jedi art of recording... or Zen if you will.

Nice to see a good kickstart to all this...it was slowing down a bit.

I wish to clarify or focus my comments a bit. I never said I wasnt HONEST with people about their abilities or that I sugar-coated it in a false way to encourage or to garner some personal gain from my actions.Perhaps it seemed I was saying that, but its not exact.EVERY band that interviewed for studio time....note>>>INTERVIEWED....were given a rider compiled by my partner and me about what they had to do in order to not waste their money and our time.It was pointed and a bit harsh...more direct than anything, and it included all the points made here,such as equipment upgrade,proper tuning,extra strings/instruments,drums in good condition and prepped,practiced tunes to the point of boredom(for them)....anyway you get my drift.My comments about mentoring were directed towards those I recorded who HAD a shred of talent and just needed the impetus to move forward.Mentoring is a great word for it.Hell, they paid me for the lessons.Thats how I always looked at it.BUT it was a business first, and putting bread on the table was part of the object, as well as artistic qualities found in recording experimentation....My point was, in mentoring I was able to gain friends and comrades through my abilities to usher the semi talent through the ordeal of recording.

All of you reading this know what an ordeal it is when you are beginning.To actually hear in retrospect what sounds you're making and know without a doubt that you actually suck is very sobering. Even Kurt knows this as he too was a beginner at some time.My whole feeling on this has never changed from years and years of work in this field...I'll always remember how I felt the first time I tried to track something and I'll always give those less experienced the benefit of the doubt because of this. Humble is as humble does.

That doesnt mean I havent booted idiots out for their indiscretions and for gumming up the works.

That doesnt mean I havent scuffled out in back with idiots who didnt want to listen AT ALL.

That doesnt mean I havent shut down a session in mid takes,refunded the money and asked the doofs never to return.

It doesnt mean that my patience was boundless as I sat in the big chair with a crooked grin and nodded to all the hackers about their insipid little tunes.

My point was ,selectivity is okay if you can afford it. Some can, some cannot.It depends on your business model you follow and its an individual call. Saying one persons decisions about how they manage their business is right or wrong especially from afar is an waste of space.How can anyone know whats right for someone else?

I would never pretend to know this or even speculate on it.

But then, anybody who ever set foot in a studio where I was engineering/producing was never clueless as to who was the boss. (me)It was always an upfront item and strictly adhered to.Its just good business and it leaves more room for creativity.Its still that way even with my partners now.Though my NEED for control these days is waning somewhat as I intend to out live most of ya'll.So stress management is important to me and we all know how many ways you can stir a pot.

One very good point that I do agree with Kurt wholeheartedly on is the handed down mentoring of the studio knowledge.Yes, this is the one thing that has become the victim of the plethora of affordable gear.The one small problem with this system over the years was always the small window of opportunity that was allowed by such a model.There werent that many apprenticeships to be had.Even though I'm not so certain that EVERYBODY or ANYBODY with $600 actually calls themselves an engineer/producer,it certainly has effected the 'C' and 'D' demo rooms to a large extent.Many have become personal rooms for songwriters and such ..some have gone the way of the Dodo and maybe theres not a problem with this.

The big rooms lost their toe hold with the advent of digital technology not necessarily cheap gear,but a different way of working.Great tracking rooms became semi obsolete after the initial tracks simply because you can overdub in a soundbooth that has a footprint the size of a business desk.Its an industry in flux right now and it will be for another few years.When the electronic gurus finally find a single format then we will see a return to studios.They may look different depending of the needs of the format, but they're just on ice for the time being.

Rimshot wrote: Honestly I don't know what cheap gear has to do with any of this - its more a preponderance of cheap manufactured musical "talent".

I didn't say anything about cheap gear. If that's what you think of Crate, well...then we agree. But cheap gear wasn't even mentioned. I was referring to "know it all" douchbags who think that they are the only ones that know what a GREAT guitar sound is, because they are sooooo perfect. And everyone else is, less than them.
Remember when I said, "a guitar player that is anything but spectacular."
And how do you preponder cheap musical talent?
Matter of fact what the hell does preponder mean in this case. Nevermind, please don't tell me.
I also don't think that there is such a thing as "manufactured musical talent". Unless you are talking about the algorythms that rappers and other "want to be" musicians. Who think that stealing a beat will make them a star.
Yes, I hate the crap that is out on the radio today.

Hi Guy - actually this thread is so long and diverse that I may have missed some of the points - I wasn't actually responding to anything you may have said about cheap gear - I thought Kurt's original point was that the abundance of cheap recording gear is contributing to the demise of quality audio recordings

.. and I haven't got a clue what preponder means other than somethings to do with ponds.. like a tadpole?

As for manufactured musical talent - its been around for a long time such as; the Monkees, all those awful boy bands (N'stink, Backstreet), the awful teen queens (britanny, christina agulabia, etc.) Ashley (cough,cough) and of course all the American Idol cr** which is now seen as what it takes to be successful in the music system - they are all flash in the pans... with no redeeming qualities (although to be fair the Monkees did have some great people writing and playing the parts for them).

As far as cheap gear goes - I see no difference between that and the revolution in the dektop publishing industry in the mid 80's. Suddenly everyone could be a publisher/graphic designer - did the world become polluted with awful design? Not really anymore than what was there before.. Did graphic designers go out of business? No - because the costs of production decreased and clients still prefer outstanding design rather than some dilletente working in his basement..

I think the bottom line is that the cream always rises to the top - although sometimes we have to put up with cream that's past its expiry date and should be chucked!

I haven't really commented here in a while - just kind of sitting back and taking in everyone's views and comments. It's good to see that this topic went from what appeared to be an argument, then a simple misunderstanding or difference of opinion, and now it has evolved into a wonderful thread showing everyone's perspectives, morals, business ethics, and what have you. After reading so many posts I would have to say that I personally fall somewhere in the middle of everyone. I can agree with Kurt. I can agree with Davedog, Rimshot, Kevin, and most others on certain aspects.

I believe that the abundance of affordable, amateur-quality gear these days has produced a large number of crap-ass recordings, but I don't think it's the gear to blame. I think it's a case where bands these days - who aren't serious about their music - would rather try to do it themselves than walk into some commercial facility and feel the pressure of being laughed at or sneered at by seasoned engineers. I'm not saying that sneering at these kids is wrong. I agree with Kurt and Davedog that a good dose of reality and honesty helps. But put yourself in their shoes and ask yourself if that's really something you would want to do or avoid if you could completely by doing everything yourself. I think the main problem is not cheap gear. In my eyes there are two types of people that buy cheap gear. 1 - The clueless kid who has no money and wants to record his band - having no desire to hone his engineering skills or make a serious coontribution to the recording community. 2 - The beginner engineer. The kid or guy who wants/needs gear to learn on but doesn't have the money to fork for the good stuff. They have a desire to learn and wish to get better and keep doing so for years to come. I think we all can agree on these 2 groups of cheap gear consumers and I think we can all agree on which one is more at fault. Even so, I don't see anything wrong with a kid wanting to do something himself. The way I see it is...if this kid wants to record his friends or other bands then so-be-it. If those bands are serious though they will seek out a better option and place to go. I like to think of the recording consumer market as a garden. I think of the bargain basement/kids-with-macs-and-soundcards type of studios as frogs or other animals that provide a positive service to the garden. They will eat and kill the bugs and insects (crappy bands, talentless, non-serious musicians) who try to destroy your garden. I think without the abundance of cheap gear and these cheap basement and project studios the amount of crap bands and musicians turning to people like us for assistance would increase tenfold. And think about it...with engineers being pick-and-choose where are these kids supposed to record if no one wants to do their stuff? Exactly...they either run to guitar center and by cheap ass recording gear or they run down the street to some guy with a mac and good soundcard. It's all very cyclic. In a way I think we all have a fault in the rise and abundance of cheap gear and the do-it-yourselfer's. Maybe if we hadn't turned them down in the first place that 1200 dollars they spent on a digi002r w/ pro tools le would have been spent at one of our studios instead. Just a thought.

RAIN0707 wrote: I haven't really commented here in a while - just kind of sitting back and taking in everyone's views and comments. It's good to see that this topic went from what appeared to be an argument, then a simple misunderstanding or difference of opinion, and now it has evolved into a wonderful thread showing everyone's perspectives, morals, business ethics, and what have you.

I agree 100%

I think the funniest thing about this thread after reading everyone's posts is that despite disagreements most everyone has a lot of sense and perspective of where they're approaching their ideas from which means that most likely we'd all be able to work fantastically together, and we're probably arguing about the same people that we wouldn't be able to work with that easily. :D

What comes to mind to me is Buddy Holly .... Before any type of "affordable" gear was available, he was producing his own recordings independently. First in a garage studio at his parents house and then later in a small independent Colorado studio. He didn't have any Behringer, Studio Projects, Joe Meek crap .... yet he still learned to make what many thought were the best pop records of the era ... How did that happen? The point being, those who really have the talent desire to do audio and music, will always find the way. We don't need chap gear to be dedicated to our art ... we would do this regardless of how much or how small the expense is because we have to ... It's like a body function.

Cheap gear only enables those who really should be looking to other places for a vocation, to fool themselves into thinking they are going to be the next Snoop Dogg.

Regardless of whether there is cheap gear or not, the cream will rise to the top. All cheap gear does is muddy the waters, making it harder to find the "diamonds in the rough".

I think the funniest thing about this thread after reading everyone's posts is that despite disagreements most everyone has a lot of sense and perspective of where they're approaching their ideas from which means that most likely we'd all be able to work fantastically together, and we're probably arguing about the same people that we wouldn't be able to work with that easily

I have always been very plain spoken and this is part of the reason I get such strong reactions from people on a variety of topics. I see things as black or white ... and I am willing to say the things that many think but never say. I gusess at times I might be considered rude and that's ok with me ... just as long as people see me as honest. You may not like what I say, but at least you know I am telling you the truth as I percive it.

Yes, there is a distinct difference in those simply interested in music and production, and those who are forced by some strange almost supernatural phenomenon to create. I have a strong lova/hate relationship with music, and as much as I'd like to leave it forever, there's this little bug in me that says "No! Get back to work!" I'm a slave to it, it whips me good! I envy those of you that actually take an interest in technology, life must be alot more fun! I must say though, understanding technology is no struggle for me, because it always comes down to problem solving - the goal is always to create good music, so technology it really never gets in my way or bugs me in particular. It's just 'part of the job', so to speak...

I have a problem with centipedes in my studio. I wonder if I need more frogs in my garden?

There is an evolution to a musicians, or a recordists career. Most, not all but most, guitarists did not start with a brand new Les Paul... more than likely they first got some cheap knock-off that their parents bought them to see if it would stick.
Same applies to cheapo gear like porta studios and what-not imo. The difference is who actually sticks with it.
I had a teacher when I was in college studying music and the music industry who liked to say "Those who dont make it are the ones who quit."
I got bitten by the bug about 20 years ago in a studio in Nashville... the first time I was ever in a studio was Sound Emporium, which, if it is still there, is a real showboat studio. I was penniless, and even a small 4-track was out of my reach. Later down the road, I got to work in a small studio in rural Virginia, where I had someone who was interested in teaching me the trade. I learned a lot.
Eventually, thanks to somewhat affordable gear, I got my own 4-track, then my own 8-track, and so on... all the while I knew I could not make a real recording with what I owned, so I still paid the pros, and learned more, earned more, learned and earned until I am where I am today.
I'm glad though, that when I was a wide-eyed kid, that I didnt get the brush off. I didnt know shit, but wanted to learn.
This might seem like somewhat of a retraction, but I do sort of agree with Kurt about the dumbing down of recordists in this sense: The internet, primarily recording webforums, are spawning a new generation of people seeking quick and easy answers to their recording questions.
There is no substitute for having someone lean over and say "You hear that? That sounds like crap... try this" and voila, you can hear it.
I would say to noobs everywhere to try anything and everything before coming to a forum especially when it is in regards to audio technique. Use your ears. Use someone elses ears. Use the search feature on the forum.
So Kurt, even despite your harshness in handling these sorts of questions daily, I see your point better now in certain circumstances - especially when the question is "How do I make my sound like ?"
The answer is: Use your ears. Use a reference cd. Experiment.

Lastly here is another revelation. I think the internet, and cheap gear isnt necessarily to blame, BUT, both entities facilitate the notion that results are quick and easy. They are not. Even the seasoned pro will take long excruciating hours working on specific sounds. It does not come quickly. Recording is not simply 'plug n play'. Unfortunatly, even the advertising that the gear manufacturers, both high-end, and low-end, are guilty of propogating this concept of instantaneous perfection.

touche'

Kevin,
You and I agree on another point .... The only ones who really benefit from this idea of plug and play / instant production gratification are the manufacturers of cheap equipment. My personal feeling is this has been at the expense of the recording industry and its participants. The fat get fatter while the working people and musicians who spent their lives dedicated to an industry, are pushed out of the way, all for the sake of a buck. That money that is being earned right now, will be forgotten in a short time.... while the Beatles recordings will still be around in fifty years. Transitory monetary gratification at the expense of lasting art .... I doubt that anything being produced presently, will have the shelf life of any of the great recordings of the 50's/ 60's/ 70's. What I find ironic is that the the closest thing to the path of "plug and play" is with the best mics and pres. Things really do almost "mix themselves" when tracked through quality gear.

It's difficult at best to discuss this in any public forum internet or print, because these same manufacturers are the ones who provide the support for these mags and online BBs via advertising dollars. Perhaps this is why I seem to be one of the only people who bring it up .... because I really have no relationships to nurture with the manufacturing community.

I believe this is one reason RO is fast becoming the premiere site online for recording information (check the plug we got in this months EM where RO is listed as one of the top 10 internet resources).

While we assist the manufacturers in getting the word out on their products, we do not simply "rubber stamp" products. If something sucks, we say so .... I am proud to know that manufacturers know that they will get a fair and professional appraisal of their products from RO.