and with that . it's locked!
This is what happens when an art form in democrotized ... and made affordable to anyone who has a few extra bucks.
No longer is there a "weeding out process" (we called it the intern process or mentoring) where the posers, wannabes and losers are culled ... now everyone has a shot at becoming a mixer or as this wing nut would call it, a "superimposer".
I honestly feel that sometimes, cheap gear has done more to hurt the industry than to help it.
That said, it's a good idea not to feed the TROLLS. yeah, this was fun in a way but when everyone replies to theses kinds of threads, it makes me less willing to simply delete them. If you alll will not contribute to these threads, I and the other mods will just delete them.
Next time the site crashes, think of all the bandwidth wasted on this guy and his 100 posts ...
Some friends of mine on another forum recently turned me on to this forum, and lo and behold the very first thread I read is now titled "This is what affordable gear has done for the industry".
This isn't going to make me any friends here especially with the moderator, so I am going to stay clean - this is my real name, not a knickname. If you know me, fine. I am not going to hide behind a screen-name to make my point. Call me a troll if you want, but at least I am not being an anonymous troll. If "trolling" means pointing out BS when I see it, then so be it.
I ask only that you take the time to read my thoughts before you kill this post. It will only take a moment.
I take some issues with you here Kurt, with all due respect. While I agree that the orginal poster was probably a troll, your quote above makes me seeth inside and I am calling you out on it.
"This is what happens when an artform gets democratized." ? What in the heck kind of statement is that?
Sheese if the case were applied to musicians who cant play their instruments then U2 would have been "culled" in 1981. And who are you to decide who gets "culled" and who doesnt? Is this a good thing?
If this is the sort of all-arrogant, elitist attitude that permeates from the world of audio engineering, then perhaps the "culling" or "weeding" process in the past that you brag about did not work quite well enough.
Sure, cheap gear yadda yadda yadda. but friends, the culling process goes on and on and on regardless of the gear you own. I freaking hate that excuse. It rather pisses me off because of this elitist attitude - this cock-sure, egotistical arrogance from so-called engineers that actually results in trollish attitudes that seem to ooze out of the online world of recording engineers.
I wonder how some of you have any clients at all. What if that would have been an actual poster, and not a troll? What if it was a kid... 17-18 years old and truly looking for information.. not too good at communicating. Wow, what a beautiful example you have made. Now if he actually makes it one day, he will likely become an arrogant a--hole too. Careful.
Your whole banter about the so-called "weeding" process is one of the most asinine statements I have ever read in all my years of participating in audio, pro-sound, and recording forums. Sort of reminds me of some billionaire lamenting that there are too many millionaires coming up. Hogwash!
And who is going to do the weeding? You? God? A government agency? Perhaps Uncle Sam could invoke licensing for audio engineers just like they do hairstylists and school-marms. Would you have passed the bar exam when you were young and inexperienced? Do you not look out into your vast expanse of capable engineers and see that one guy who found success, but you cant figure out why? How would you feel if you were determined, yet you were culled?
Isnt it the truth that the bottom line is that there are only so many high-paying audio engineering jobs to go around, and some young bucks with a Pro Tools rig might start chipping into your business? Is that where that statement stemmed from? I suspect so.
Kurt, I wanted to PM you and take this matter up with you in private, but you have no email information. I am truly sorry for bringing this into the public, but your statements in the quote above were public as well. You can and probably will delete this post, and maybe even throw me off the forum. But I have said to you exactly what I felt from the bottom of my heart and I hope you read this, and take it to your own heart, and humble yourself a bit. You could have been "culled" too, and I am sure you wouldnt have liked hearing that some senior engineer out there was the one calling out for it. I regard your skills as an engineer as worthy, but you just might not be where you are today if someone decided to "cull" you.
I for one am going to keep after my dream, despite arrogant naysayers such as yourself. This modern age is not a good one for Luddites. I am sure there will be a few who agree with me on this point.
Fellows, do not listen to Kurts words. If you have to start out bouncing on a half-track to get your career started, then go for it. Do not let bitter negativity such as the above quote get in your way. Be an inspiration to yourself, and do not allow yourself to be "culled" as Kurt would have you.
Thanks for your time,
Regards,
Kevin C. Glenn
Comments
Kevin Glenn wrote: So... We are where we are. We've done a gr
Kevin Glenn wrote: So...
We are where we are.
We've done a great deal of analytical thinking as to what the problems are and why and thats a good start. Where should we go from here?
Cheap gear isnt going to go away. But as someone above posted (forgive me) about the prevalence of graphic design software etc did not exactly result in the collapse of the grphic design industry. (although it does provide for mountains of entertainment ie: fark.com)My personal reaction to the whole thing regarding the explosion of "bedroom" studios and the likes, was to emphasize my recording experience, my people skills, and something else not everyone can afford - a proper facility.
What else? Do we hunker down and hope it goes away? I know for a fact you cant complain it away.
I doubt there is a way to convince the public to see that the kings new clothes are not what they seem.
I for one cant throw my hands up in the air and give up.
This is a dilemna.
It reminds me of the absurdity of the loudness wars. The corporate media is driving something that sounds like ass and there doesnt seem to be a thing to do about it.
The problem is, that if you dont go along with it, you get left behind.
We cope and bitch ... make a big noise about it. I know for a fact this works. If enough people keep the topic at the forefront, sooner or later the manufacturers will be forced to react.
For years cheap mic pres were typically abysmal. Finally after some serious demands from the marketplace, GT responded with "The Brick", a real pre for the masses. That is an example of the manufacturers reacting to the demands of the marketplace. If we begin to demand quality over low cost, that's what we will get. If all we concern ourselves with is how cheap it is, well we're going to get what we are asking for.
Part of this may involve stepping on a few toes ... We may need to burst a few bubbles when people post asking about PreSonus or RNP's and that type of mid level stuff. I'm all for being polite, kind and generous but not at the expense of politely telling white lies about how hits can be made with that kind of stuff. The truth is, most hit records are made with great gear. It's rare that the opposite applies.
Stop fostering the concept that pro recordings can be accomplished with budget gear in a bedroom setting. Small rooms suck, that's a fact ... it took me 2 years of arguing the point with bass trap manufacture Ethan Winer, before he finally started to backpedal and admit there is only so much room treatments will do. We need to keep our collective noses to the grindstone and not let the BS slip through the cracks.
ANOTHR NOTE
I just received an email from Joe Malone at JLM .... my new TMP8 is being shipped Monday! Yeaaaaah! My pre amp rack is now complete with, 2 System 9098's, a Sebatron vmp4000e, a GR MP2NV, the Millennia ORIGIN, ~Sebatron~ THORAX, JLM TMP8 and two "Bricks", for 20 channels of high quality pre amplification.
NOW it's time to start thinking about better converters.
Next up .... perhaps a "road trip" to some West Coast studios in order to show off the Sebatron and JLM pres ... I gotta let AG and a few other guys I know in the SF Bay Area what the Sebs and JLMs sound like. If something like this interests you, drop a PM .... maybe we can work out a visit.
I agree with that Kurt. It's much like the fast food industry's
I agree with that Kurt. It's much like the fast food industry's customer service. Everyone knows that customer satisfaction and service in the fast food industry stinks. But why is that? It's mainly because when people order a #2 meal without onions and then they are mad to find out the sandwich has onions on it...they just stew and eat the damn thing without bitching about it. The longer we accept mediocrity the more abundant it becomes. That is true in everything. Great point Kurt. 8)
I'm kinda late on what I was going to say, but I am both passion
I'm kinda late on what I was going to say, but I am both passionate about music and a businessman. I will record anyone for money IF they will at the very least be open to my criticisms. I had a repeat customer because of that (oddly). I still gave them what THEY wanted on the first go-around. They put it out and kept hearing the same things I kept telling them in the studio. They called me back to book another session and the first words I heard: "We'll do whatever you say, just give us a good record." In the end, we both got what we wanted: a great record.
Also, in response to ITGA's post mentioning Crate, I actually prefer that sound for my playing. I've used Marshall, Orange, Vox, Diezel, Mesa Boogie, Rhino, Carvin, Ibanez, and Randall and I still prefer the Crate over everything else. Its just a vibe thing I guess.
Crate, hmmmmmmmm. :? I have met many guitarist's that use Crate
Crate, hmmmmmmmm. :?
I have met many guitarist's that use Crate amps. But I for one, have never owned, nor will I ever buy one, or visit the Crate web-site to see what they are making now.
I'm not sorry. That's just not quality to me. :(
It's not like they haven't sold a quad-zillion of those amps. So obviously there are people who either like it or love it.
I respect your opinion, but not your amp. :lol:
Great thread well done Kevin well done Kurt I've been a mod he
Great thread
well done Kevin
well done Kurt
I've been a mod here at Ro and although my posts are not as many as Kurt's I do know what it is like to be under the pump
Before Tech Talk exploded the amount of activity was intense with many a stoush and the odd troll
I often disagree with Kurt
I often agree with Kurt
I would like people to give credit to anyone that gives an honest answer to a question regardless to how people may react.
This is not a popularity contest and a solid, honest answer from anyone should be respected.
Personalities can clash and it can require some work on everyone's part too keep an even flow.
my contribution to this thread is simple
It is the Craftsman and not the Tools.
Morals and business survival can sometimes be opposites but I don't begrudge any business trying to survive.
There is a point at which Boutique does become Rip-Off.
... and a producer that continues to sell a dream that will never come true is also a Rip-Off
"It is the Craftsman and not the Tools" Couldn't agree more..
"It is the Craftsman and not the Tools"
Couldn't agree more..
A sound engineer friend of mine told me about the technique used to record the Stones classic "Street Fighting Man" - and why it was so hard to reproduce the "sound". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he told me it was done in a castle (or cottage) by multiple playback and recording though a mono cassette recorder!
I love that tune - especially the atmosphere change into the piano string bit..
Rimshot wrote: "It is the Craftsman and not the Tools" Couldn't
Rimshot wrote: "It is the Craftsman and not the Tools"
Couldn't agree more..
A sound engineer friend of mine told me about the technique used to record the Stones classic "Street Fighting Man" - and why it was so hard to reproduce the "sound". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he told me it was done in a castle (or cottage) by multiple playback and recording though a mono cassette recorder!
I love that tune - especially the atmosphere change into the piano string bit..
Noooooo ..... that sounds like an amalgam of two or three different tales ... Yes the Stones and Led Zeppelin did record in old mansions / castles ... but the Stones had a remote truck (which I believe Zep and others used as well) and yes there is a story about the Stones and a cassette recorder but that was the signature riff on Satisfaction ...
Kurt Foster wrote: ... Yes the Stones and Led Zeppelin did recor
Kurt Foster wrote: ... Yes the Stones and Led Zeppelin did record in old mansions / castles ... but the Stones had a remote truck (which I believe Zep and others used as well) ...
yeah ... and Deep Purple ??
a Mansion and the truck park outside and the Zappa Band ?? playing inside
... then a flare was fired
:shock:
... and then there was a fire .... smoke on the water ....
:roll:
move the truck !!!
at least I think the story goes alone those lines.
Kev....I know that news travels slow down-under, but this has be
Kev....I know that news travels slow down-under, but this has been awhile!....Story A. Purple books a studio in Montreaux.Some idiot fires off a flare...Burn(later Purple song)...Zappa has the best room in Montreaux booked for a month. Purple is up against a deadline...They book a Hotel (The Grand)...The Rolling Stones Truck is hired ..They take over the whole thing...(Idont think it was occupied at the time) They make Machine Head.(maybe another one????) It sells a LOT.
Story B.The Rolling Stones take over a Country French Chateau.They Have a BIG PARTY.The Stones Truck and a bunch of other gear shows up. They record Beggars Banquet.It sells a bunch.Enough to buy another Truck.And a Castle.
Story C. They used a Nagra to get some of the tracks in remote locations of the properties.And while a Nagra is a smallish recorder, it aint cheap gear. SO. Calrec porta-console>Nagra>Stones= dollars by the pound.
Story D. All of story A is true. All of story B is a lark All of story D is true.All of story C is history.
BTW. I think the Stones ALWAYS hired clowns to serve drinks at their little parties.
Okay - my memory is fading about that Stones story (which is why
Okay - my memory is fading about that Stones story (which is why I said "correct me if I'm wrong).. actually I'm glad to get the real story so thanks!
Here's a slightly different take on cheap audio
- with the preponderance of cheap and terrible sounding MP3s flooding the market...
it tells me that the consumers aren't aware of (or don't care about) the difference.. Personally I prefer the sound of LP's over CDs.. and am still salivating over DVD audio. I've never been tempted to put my ears between the speakers when playing a CD - but with LPs you can close your eyes and its like you are sitting in the middle of the recording studio.. some of the DVD audio I've heard is pretty darn close to that experience!
- so its not only cheap recording gear but also the cheap playback devices that people use. I remember some people used to say the litmus test for a recording is if it sounds good on a tinny car radio (in the 60s/70s).. looks like we haven't really moved the yardsticks that much!
Here's a slightly different take on cheap audio - with the prepo
Here's a slightly different take on cheap audio
- with the preponderance of cheap and terrible sounding MP3s flooding the market...
it tells me that the consumers aren't aware of (or don't care about) the difference..
.... a point mentioned many times. Here's my thoughts on that.
How many people are hip to what goes into the making or appreciation of fine paintings? What makes a Van Gough or Picasso? How many of us could the the difference between an original and even a bad copy?
But just because the general public has no appreciation for what makes a great piece of art doesn't mean that painters should throw up their hand in despair or despair and chuck the canvas stretcher and palette and just use crayons and that thick cheap paper they give kids in first grade... after all, "What's the point, the general public doesn't know the difference anyway?"
Even a crayon drawing on cheap paper by these greats would be of value .. and I am not arguing that an artist cannot use whichever medium they want to use ... as long as the choice is made for artistic reasons.
The world is full of morons and gurms. That doesn't mean that everyone needs to stoop to that level. Art is supposed to be an elevation of the human spirit ...
"That doesn't mean that everyone needs to stoop to that level. A
"That doesn't mean that everyone needs to stoop to that level. Art is supposed to be an elevation of the human spirit ..."
Absolutely - and to be fair there will always be a huge market for top quality audio production..
I am sure that when DVD audio becomes mainstream (hopefully in my lifetime) (or something even better!) there will be a resurgence in audio quality - like when audiophile stereo systems became popular in the early 70's.
Hi, first post from Sweden (regular reader, just hasn't register
Hi,
first post from Sweden (regular reader, just hasn't registered before).
I visit a few different music forums, and the main problem is that you get really bored with all the newbie questions. It takes time to find the gems that are worth something.
This forum actually have a home recording category which is a very good idea, but the pro audio category still gets flooded with "i'm new to recording - help me out" topics. A more strict moderation policy where all these topics were moved to the home recording area might help.
If both the kids who just bought their first Behringer gear and the more advanced users find their place, much irritation would be avoided, IMO.
Keep up the good work, Kurt!
Jonas Persson wrote: This forum actually have a home recording c
Jonas Persson wrote: This forum actually have a home recording category which is a very good idea, but the pro audio category still gets flooded with "i'm new to recording - help me out" topics. A more strict moderation policy where all these topics were moved to the home recording area might help.
What a great idea. I have been going to gearslutz dot com. Any other site's you go to Jonas?
Glad you joined RO :!:
From what I've read on these forums, the pros here are not that
From what I've read on these forums, the pros here are not that elitist and many freely volunteer their advice to "newbies" (including Kurt!) ... as far as filtering the gems from the sand - its pretty easy, usually the subject title says it all.. like "What's a Balanced Cable?" :P
I wouldn't want to be the moderator in charge of policing the discussions.. although obvious trolls should be dumped back into the river where they belong.
Getting back to the original point of discussion; that cheap gear is not helping the industry etc..
I see cheap digital gear as an inexpensive way of making quick demos, similar to what the 4 or 8 track recorder did in the 70's. Its great as an intermediate "warm up" - before taking it into a real studio and spending a lot of time and money. Cheap gear is also a great learning tool.. when I started out I used software like Cakewalk/Sound Forge/Sound Blaster Live card/ Behringer 6 channel mixer/ (plus a bunch of musical instruments that I have bass, guitar, octapad and midi keyboard) to create multitrack recordings that were just amazing compared to what the quality would have been, using the old analog tape machines - and for a fraction of the price.. but still if I wanted to make a 'real' recording I wouldn't even consider doing it "in house".
Even my bandleader who is a recording engineer in his own right, wouldn't try to record himself - he would prefer to have a dedicated engineer behind the controls and let him concentrate on what he does best..
(this thread is so long I'm getting Alzeheimers :shock: )
Rimshot wrote: I see cheap digital gear as an inexpensive way o
Rimshot wrote:
I see cheap digital gear as an inexpensive way of making quick demos, similar to what the 4 or 8 track recorder did in the 70's. Its great as an intermediate "warm up" - before taking it into a real studio and spending a lot of time and money. Cheap gear is also a great learning tool..
I agree ... but "back in the 70's" (gawd I'm old ... ) at least TEAC and Dokkorder ( the 2 companies that were making 4 track machines with simul-sync for consumer use) didn't attempt to pawn these offerings as PRO gear ... they called it "semi pro" and yes, some people actually squeezed professional product out of them, especially if the low and high end content wasn't too demanding, as in an acoustic guitar and vocal recording.
When we went out and bought a 3340 and a 2A or M5 mixer ... we thought it was pretty cool (and it was!) ... but we still all knew that The Record Plant, Electric Ladyland, The Hit Factory among others that are gone now because of all this, had gear and talent, on the console and producing, that was 10 times better than what we had to offer .. But that was when sound was king ... now technology rules. :rolleyes:
Semi Pro gear was for making demos ... which we all hoped would help us land a record deal, so we could get into a "real" studio with "real" producers and engineers. ... It's too bad that's not the case today because in the process we seem to be throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Kurt Foster wrote: [quote=Rimshot] I see cheap digital gear as a
Kurt Foster wrote: [quote=Rimshot]
I see cheap digital gear as an inexpensive way of making quick demos, similar to what the 4 or 8 track recorder did in the 70's. Its great as an intermediate "warm up" - before taking it into a real studio and spending a lot of time and money. Cheap gear is also a great learning tool..
I agree ... but "back in the 70's" (gawd I'm old ... ) at least TEAC and Dokkorder ( the 2 companies that were making 4 track machines with simul-sync for consumer use) didn't attempt to pawn these offerings as PRO gear ... they called it "semi pro" and yes, some people actually squeezed professional product out of them, especially if the low and high end content wasn't too demanding, as in an acoustic guitar and vocal recording.
When we went out and bought a 3340 and a 2A or M5 mixer ... we thought it was pretty cool (and it was!) ... but we still all knew that The Record Plant, Electric Ladyland, The Hit Factory among others that are gone now because of all this, had gear and talent, on the console and producing, that was 10 times better than what we had to offer .. But that was when sound was king ... now technology rules. :rolleyes:
Semi Pro gear was for making demos ... which we all hoped would help us land a record deal, so we could get into a "real" studio with "real" producers and engineers. ... It's too bad that's not the case today because in the process we seem to be throwing the baby out with the bath water.the main problem lies in a changing of the industry. a demo will rarly get any one signed and in a good studio these days. unless you are an imeatiatly marketable product, most even indie lables will not through enugh money at you to get you into a good studio, so manny bands are left with "the guy who read a book on recording and has (used to be a couple of sm57s) a couple barhinger mics and a really nice rode nt1 for vocals"
I think it’s more a problem of society in general. The world is
I think it’s more a problem of society in general. The world is a f*cked up place right now and many many people do not have good values and priorities in their life. They want everything fast, easy to understand and accessible and not too expensive. Every industry is suffering from these demands, as well as the music industry. Producers and “artists” want money fast, easily and cheaply. The result is boring cheap music. A lot of the bad music is made in the Big studios and a lot of the really good music is made in smaller studios because the music they make is not easily accessible and needs more attention to be appreciated. Therefore, I do not think cheap gear is the problem, I think money and the way our society has become is the huge problem. Cheap gear is helping the real artists express themselves. It’s clear that a lot of shitty bands are recording music as well but we never hear their music anyways. We hear the shitty bands that record in the BIG studios.
It’s time for revolution!
I'm a big fan of a group called Pinback. They record everything
I'm a big fan of a group called Pinback. They record everything at home in their bedroom and it sounds freaking fantastic.... now granted, they have a pretty nice spread too as far as equiment goes, but it still shows that it can be done. Anyone ever heard any of their latest stuff? Simple, but the recording is fantastic.
I've come to this discussion late, and after a few days of readi
I've come to this discussion late, and after a few days of reading all 7 pages of comments (yikes!) - and probably forgetting most of what I've read - I'll add my own .02 cents to what's already been said.
I agree with just about all (yeah, I'm always in the middle of most arguments or discussions) that's been said by Kurt and others; it's a complex situation, and there's no one easy answer to what we've seen happen in our industry over the last decade.....at least.
The digital revolution has changed & overhauled just about every industry you can think of, from desktop publishing, to home tv viewing, to porn, to ordering pizza's online; there's no reason the recording & music business could be immune to this same change.
Change is a constant (notice I didn't say good or bad change!) and of course, that is the ONLY constant: Change itself. If we're standing still, we're doomed. Not everyone is comfortable with that, because of human nature: Every time we THINK we're safely "on base" and set up nicely in our craft, BOOM! Something comes along and changes that paradigm: analog went digital, tape storage went hard drive. Edit sessions went from splicing blocks & edit tape to virtual decision lists inside of computers, doing non-destructive arranging that used to take many hands and multiple passes out of an analog multitrack tape machine. The changes wrought by digital could fill pages of rants here....again, some of them good, some of them very bad.
Some people took these new toys and did great things with them, and of course many people just found an easier way to turn out crap. It's all around us now. Hell, we need "digital" gear (DVR tv listings, email spam filters, mute buttons on players, etc.) to help us filter OUT the crap, esp if we're looking for peace and quiet once in a while, even in our own homes.
To me, MP3's are the "Cassettes" of this generation, and I've given up trying to educate people about how bad they sound and what's wrong with them. I quietly continue to keep my music collection intact as wav files, and when I join the IPOD crowd (which admittedly is coming soon, for no other reason that convenience and the fact that I wont notice much difference on a plane or in a car), I'll still know the difference anyway.
Look, we can't educate everyone, and there IS an upside to being on the "inside" of the audio business. We DO Know the difference, and we are still the ones calling the shots; never forget that. We CAN make a difference, one at a time - refusing to over-normalize/crunch a track into oblivion, refusing to use crap gear, and keeping our personal standards high. That said, everyone has to eat, and there's a big difference between earning a daily living, supporting those around you who depend on you, and what your own personal artistic standards require. Usually, one can find some common ground to get through the day. Usually. :)
I applaude Kurt's ability & guts to walk away from the BS and timewasters, however. I've had several experiences this week alone that were on a parallel to what he's been through and talks about in this thread. One recent (ex)client is so laughably bad, I am rather dissappointed in myself that I took on the work at all. (It was one of those things - like cancer, I guess - that sorta grew out of a one-time thing into an ongoing, messy, low-talent money-grubbing yearly event that I now regret ever getting involved with. This client is never happy, never satisfied, and couldn't wait to stick it to me over a minor point of subjective results, no matter how high we kept our standards. Now that we've parted ways, I look back on it as one of those "older & wiser" situations, and i've vowed "Never again."
I'm probably as old as Kurt, and there are more and more days now where I have truly begun questioning WHY I'm accepting certain clients. The truth is, I am blessed with plenty of work, and I really don't need the time wasters or the BS, and I do try to filter it out ahead of time. (I'm taking some time off this summer to work on three projects that "I" believe in, and "I" am investing my time and efforts into - none of it will probably make me a dime in profit, but that's not the reason I'm doing them.)
It's true that we were all newbies once, and everyone has to start somewhere. I suspect the BEST thing that can be said about the "Bedroom" & cheap gear is that IS the place to start. Learn all one can, get one's feet wet, find out if it's right for you, or not. Take your time, read (and test) everything you can get your hands on, build a few things, break a few rules, blow a few things up, and LISTEN to the really good stuff out there. There's soooo much to hear and learn from.
If it IS going to become your calling: performing/writing, or recording producing, then it's time to mainstream oneself into the majors. That doesn't mean a major recording contract (which really doesn't even exist anymore anyway, in most cases), but it does mean a "Pro" attitude about everything from the workflow to the gear itself.
I am the first one to tell you that you can get great sounds out of a $300 Chinese mic and a Mackie mixer, but that's besides the point. It's about artistry. The people Kurt has mentioned (the legends & the truly talened folks that have come before us) were content to let the pros do THEIR thing, while they (the artists) did their thing: for all the right reasons, and NOT for the $$$$. Talent is talent, and all the gear in the world won't make you any better, but it can put you on a level playing field where you belong. Good gear should be transparent in the hands of a pro, helping create the artistic vision.
Shortcuts are just that, and there's a big difference between taking the easy way out and doing it right in the first place. You can always hear the difference in the end. Just get any recording that's been done in the last 50-60 years, and give it a serious listen. Ask yourself if you can hear the technology or the artistry, and the answer should be obvious. You'll either be hearing a dated "museum piece", or a work of art. And if you can't tell the difference between the two, you may be in the wrong business.
JoeH wrote: Talent is talent, and all the gear in the world won'
JoeH wrote: Talent is talent, and all the gear in the world won't make you any better, but it can put you on a level playing field where you belong.
Just to comment on what JoeH said...
talent is talent
How very true. One time I played with a guitar player who had only a 2x12 cab and his guitar was an off namebrand, and he started putting stickers all over it, to hide the scratches and the head stock logo, so no-one would know it was not a "namebrand".
That guy was the BEST guitar player I ever played with. He could get AWESOME sounds out of his setup. It was like jamming with Joe Satriani---he was that good.
And then I have other friends who have a full Marshall stack, with a JMP head, and the best Gibson LesPaul money can buy. And the only impression you get from there playing is...."dude, you need to practice".
Just my 2 cents
Just reading back over some of the last few posts on this wondif
Just reading back over some of the last few posts on this wondiferous thread and an idea struck me. Why don't you guys have a dedicated forum to dump sub-noobie and troll questions into? Call it "Troll Dump" or "Noobie Yard" or something. Not only would it get these people from cluttering up the forums for people seeking useful knowledge or with legit questions, but it would subtly get the point across to the trolls that they should think before they post or do their research.
And if any of us get bored, or if you have pity for the people in the thread dump, you could still help them out with their rediculous questions. Think of it not so much as a culling as hiding carpet stains under a rug.
Kurt Foster wrote: Hey Kev ... I will say unequivocally, that o
Kurt Foster wrote: Hey Kev ...
I will say unequivocally, that over the four years I have moderated on this forum, the cheaper the gear gets, the dumber the questions have gotten.
That pretty much summs up my reply but let me add ...
Let me add to that. It is not about cheap, as in entry level MI or prosumer stuff either. If you look around on messageboards, there are morons who have brainlessly wasted money on older SSL's, analog multitracks, etc, and have absolutely no idea how to use them at all.
I remember on http://www.recordingwebsite.com (where some of the moderators don't even know what pink noise, star ground or MIDI are), and this guy asks a question, and I quote "I have an AMEK Angela. How do I get to monitor the tracks I have recorded?" Well how the heck should we know? How do we know you have the two connected correctly, if at all? Did you do the work, or did a pro? Where is you documentation? Did you do this on the console or that?
Come on!
People today do not have the access to the studios, to get the mentorship required, because now there are a fewer number of studios doing real work. The real money work is being done in private producer/engineer owned rooms statistially. The public studios that remain are going to be very hard to get into.
There is also a record number of recording and live sound schools. This turns out only a few REALLY talented people. The rest are (based on my experience) just as lost in a real room around a compressor as they were going in into school. Sure they know ProTools, or MIDI, but can they make audio happen if their computer went down? Do they get enough hands on time recording with all of the standard mic techniques? Do they know how to solder, use a scope or a simple volt meter? Do they know the difference in DB25 wiring standards? It is the common interconnect and basic skills that are required. A good attitude can make up for lack of skill at times though.
I know for a fact that the manufacturers market changing to semi pro and budget oriented gear has created more crap, with less longevity. There are no Neves that will appreciate and last (with good maintenance) 50-60 years. The stuff made today is built for a price point and is good enough to get buy in most cases. But that is only ok if you are a novice or a newbie.
There needs to be a return to the high-end driving the industry's innovation. Now it is the low end. This is true in gear, in engineers, in music.
We have more crap music than ever and it is effecting touring as well. Touring revenues for 2004 were down 2.4 BILLION dollars. Why? Too many artists, too many shows, too many choices. When there are fewer choices, attendance per event is up, profits are up and the artists have longevity.
Kurt Foster wrote: Very good Brent :!: I wish I could have phras
Kurt Foster wrote: Very good Brent :!: I wish I could have phrased it so eloquently
There needs to be a return to the highend driving the industry's innovation. Now it is the low end. This is true in gear, in engineers, in music.
That's it in a nutshell ...
verry good indeed:
i think where are on the right side of the curve and the world is starting to come around.
So... We are where we are. We've done a great deal of analyti
So...
We are where we are.
We've done a great deal of analytical thinking as to what the problems are and why and thats a good start. Where should we go from here?
Cheap gear isnt going to go away. But as someone above posted (forgive me) about the prevalence of graphic design software etc did not exactly result in the collapse of the grphic design industry. (although it does provide for mountains of entertainment ie: fark.com)
My personal reaction to the whole thing regarding the explosion of "bedroom" studios and the likes, was to emphasize my recording experience, my people skills, and something else not everyone can afford - a proper facility.
What else? Do we hunker down and hope it goes away? I know for a fact you cant complain it away.
I doubt there is a way to convince the public to see that the kings new clothes are not what they seem.
I for one cant throw my hands up in the air and give up.
This is a dilemna.
It reminds me of the absurdity of the loudness wars. The corporate media is driving something that sounds like ass and there doesnt seem to be a thing to do about it.
The problem is, that if you dont go along with it, you get left behind.