Mark,

Are you talking about a single channel preamp, or 2 ch or more? Also, What will you application be?

I know you put a $1000 limit. I did the same, but found out about John Hardy preamp, and got it.
If you take the one without output transf. and complete metering, it's gonan cost you about $1300. You will never regret it, at least I didn't. It's very transparent, and has a clean gain path. I used it with Royer R121, and the results was really good, especially on screming electric guitars. I used it on vocals too, with an MD421, and it done a really good job.
And John is a very kind person to speak with.

ciao
ronnie

I agree with AR about price limitation, You're just slightly cornering you're self into the semi professional sound when for a few hundred bucks more, quality takes a huge leap forward.

KBP

Thanks for the input so far. I will consider what you're saying about cost. However, I am a semi-professional musician/producer at this point. I will be using the Pre-Amp primarily as a "cheater" in my home DAW-based studio, in that when I'm "done" with a tune, I'll run it out of my computer, thru the pre-amp, and back into the computer to then burn to CD.
Mind you I'm already doing pretty well, but I wouldn't call myself professional at this point, since I still have a day job I can't quit!
I would want stereo.
Mark

Originally posted by mark:
Thanks for the input so far. I will consider what you're saying about cost. However, I am a semi-professional musician/producer at this point.

That isn't quite what they meant by calling the equipment "semi-professional". That you are currently doing this on a 'semi-professional' basis is great, however, the tools you employ should last you a lifetime/career...not just a couple of years.

You will find that a lot (hell...most) of the 'semi-pro' crap is more expensive than the really good stuff as you'll outgrow the equipment in a couple of years, whereas you'll have the really good stuff for a decade or two (the cost of ownership per year drops to a fraction of the price).

I will be using the Pre-Amp primarily as a "cheater" in my home DAW-based studio, in that when I'm "done" with a tune, I'll run it out of my computer, thru the pre-amp, and back into the computer to then burn to CD.

That's not "cheating", but it is a bit foolish. I'm from the school that preaches "once you're in the digital domain-stay there". You are going to lose more by converting to analog, using a mic pre amplifier to add depth and dimension to the tone that the rest of your equipment was incapable of capturing in the first place, then back into the digital domain (more than likely running through the same mediocre sound card as an A/D-D/A that made you want to use a pre-amp to warm things up).

Bro, you're trying to put a band-aid on a headwound. There are a couple of things that I could suggest, first...start with your A/D-D/A / Soundcard. Do they suck? Can you spend that same $1,000 and get a really good set of converters/soundcard? In my experience that will make more of a difference than running your stuff through an analog "good" box, especially when using less than stellar converters.

As far as actual pre-amps go...there really isn't anything on the market that I'm aware of that is a great 2 channel unit for >$1k. When the RNMP comes out, that may change things, but at the moment, I don't know of anything that fits that bill.

May I humbly suggest that you look at your entire signal path, from sound generation (instruments) to capture (how you're getting the sound out of the air/or out of a box and into your storage medium). A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, and not all A/D converters [nor D/A converters] are created equal. I've found the converters to be the weak link in the chain more than any other item...

As always...YMMV

i don't know if this gear is just semi-pro or how good it really is (at least it got rave reviews-exceptional bang for the buck!), but i guess its worth a closer look:
http://

regards!

Good grief, Fletcher! How did you come to the assumption that my converters were no good!?! Granted, I'm not using Pro Tools, but rather an RME Hammerfall (with the RME AEB cards' converters) into Nuendo. Of all the sound cards/converters I've used, including the MOTU 1224, 2408, the Midiman Delta 1010, and the Aardvark Direct Pro 24/96, this sounds the best so far, and I think it's far from "mediocre" or a "head wound!" I also use a Mackie 1402 VLZ Pro, and balanced Monster Studio cables. My signal path is pretty good for a closet studio.

Thanks for your input, though.

Mark

Actually Fletcher came to the conclusion that your converters were bad because most sound card converters are bad. Simple...eh? I constantly see this same thing. I have a lot of people ask if they need to upgrade their pre while they are still using some grungy 16 bit internal sound card. I haven't heard the Hammerfall converters so they may be great. But Fletcher's (and others) advice is still good. It may not be a new pre that you need.

i think fletcher was using that as an example of a potential problem spot
i can't say for sure....and i'm not going to speak for him

the A/D --> D/A chain is typically weak
unless you can spring for a rack of apogees

i would agree that running through the mic pre after you are done recording is a bad idea

first:
unless the pre has a line level input you are going to clip the sh*t out of it with digital full scale signal

second:
what fletcher said about the whole converting process

third:
use the good mic pre to get great sounds in to the DAW in the first place.....maybe I/O through a really nice stereo comp even if you are only compressing a few dB it might help (ya know....transformers, tubes, all that good stuff)

to me the hard part is deciding where and what to spend the cash on
mics, comp, mic-pre, EQ, A/D --> D/A, etc....
the list gets long and almost depressing

good luck,
j.hall

Originally posted by mark:
I will be using the Pre-Amp primarily as a "cheater" in my home DAW-based studio, in that when I'm "done" with a tune, I'll run it out of my computer, thru the pre-amp, and back into the computer to then burn to CD.

Mark, do you need the pre to fix a level discrepancy between nah and nah? If so, fine. But if you think the pre is going to "add" anything to your mix, you may want to consider a different type of box instead. Like maybe a stereo compressor.

Originally posted by mark:
Good grief, Fletcher! How did you come to the assumption that my converters were no good!?!

If you go back and read what I wrote, I asked you if they suck, I didn't say they sucked. Big difference. My point was that you really need to look at all the elements of the chain, no one particular link will be the end, all the links need to be equally strong.

Granted, I'm not using Pro Tools, but rather an RME Hammerfall (with the RME AEB cards' converters) into Nuendo.

For all I know, that could be better than Pro-sTools. The fact of the matter is that the P-T 888 converters are fucking terrible, and the Apologee AD-8000 not a whole lot better than that...so, without having heard your 'soundcard' I really have no place to comment upon it other than from what I've heard from most of the 'soundcard A/D-D/A's...they've not been as good as many of the outboard converters that can send a signal to a computer in the digital domain.

Of all the sound cards/converters I've used, including the MOTU 1224, 2408, the Midiman Delta 1010, and the Aardvark Direct Pro 24/96, this sounds the best so far, and I think it's far from "mediocre" or a "head wound!"

OK, look, I really wasn't trying to insult you, I was just pointing out a potential weak link. Sorry if you took offense, none was intended.

I also use a Mackie 1402 VLZ Pro, and balanced Monster Studio cables.

Now that's funny!! It's kinda like saying you drive a Hyundai with Porsche seat covers...

--------------

Back in the real world, I don't think that leaving the digital domain to go through a mic amp is going to achieve the effect/tone you desire. Somehow, I have a feeling that if you put that $1,000 to use elsewhere in your signal path...most likely prior to the Analog to Digital conversion, you'll be doing yourself a great favor.

I also haven't seen/met a really good 2 channel mic amp under $1,000...so you may want to put that $1,000 into a 6 month certificate of deposit with your local bank, save up a few more dollars and do some additional homework before you spend your money in an unwise manner.

Best of luck, sorry if my previous comments offended you, it was certainly not my intention.

"The fact of the matter is that the P-T 888 converters are fucking terrible, and the Apologee AD-8000 not a whole lot better than that"

How can you say that??!! Everyone uses the 888's. Don't you think that if they were terrible, big-time producers and engineers would use something else?

Next thing, you'll be saying that CD's are barely acceptable.

Sheesh.

Mixerman

On topic:

I suggest the Studio Technologies "Mic Preeminence"(stereo). Lists for about 1k. Excellent bang for the buck. Very clean, loads of gain, 48v, Phaserev. +4 and -10 out.

It will not take a fullscale dig signal without OL, tho. No pad, and at it's lowest setting, it gives maybe 15db gain. But I agree that this pipe-the-mix-thru-a-mic-pre is a dumb idea, so no matter.

But if you want a real pre for less than many cost, I recommend this one.

WOE

Yo, Fletcha, wahzzup, craze? Ya havin' fun yet? I'm gonna drop by your shop soon to check it out. We miss ya over at the "other" place, but it's all good.

BTW, wahzzup w/ the joemeek line? I gotta bud who has a joemeek pre sittin in his mic closet gathering dust, and I think it's the single-channel chumpy. Would be fine for my cheapo VS. Whattya think I should pay him for that? $200?

curvedominant

This seems like a good thread to try another question that went nowhere the last time I asked. We're talking about moderate priced preamps here right? Well, how about the German solid state modules that followed the famous V-series tube gear? Everbody knows about the V76 and the V72 & V78 alternatives. But then Telefunken, TAB, Siemens and the rest of the German manufacturers came out with solid state lines like the V276, V376, V676 and literally dozens of other preamps and EQ's. Now that the supply of V76 modules has been bought out, and even the V-series line amps and distribution amps have been "converted" into V-series preamps, many German and US dealers are pushing the later solid state German stuff. Can anyone relate any personal knowledge of these products? They are still surprisingly cheap, so if they sound good we should really spend some time talking about these things. Can they be put to good use?

steve
sjp@soca.com

Yo Curve--I still hang at the other place, mostly in george's domain. Good to see you here, outta add a bit of spark to the proceedings!!

Just call before you swing by the shop...it's an 'appointment only' kinda joint. Catch ya soon!!

Originally posted by Mixerman:

Next thing, you'll be saying that CD's are barely acceptable.

Mixerman

Hey..... LOL.

Mark Plancke

Hey Mark. Check this one out if you catch this post in time:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1228621885

I bought one a couple of months ago and it's a spiffy setup. It put another color in my kit (blue ) and I find myself using it quite a bit. It also gives you a line in (DI) as well as mic inputs.

Cheers,

TB :cool:

Hmmmm, well, thanks to everyone for posting in this thread. I'm sure all of you meant to be helpful.

The thing I should've told you perhaps is that I'm making electronic music anyway, and I guess we electronic music producers sort of have different production rules than you "regular" music guys. So the preamp idea is just to "warm up" recordings without introducing any shite, not to make them sound like they were mixed on a SSL or a Trident.

I did get a couple of good recommendations, however, so thanks.

Mark

I think that a lot of the responses are maybe a little more on target than you'd think, as going DA/AD is a pretty good recommendation for 'adding shite' all by itself. Now, if you've got good converters, then maybe that's taken care of, but if you want to step through something that will add warmth (whatever that word means this week... :), you may want to look at some boxes other than mic pre's. Under a grand, I'd go try out a couple of compressors- an ART ProVLA (believe it or not- just listen), a Joemeek SC2.2, a pair of Aphex Compellors, uh, that's probably it. There are some decent EQ's out there as well, maybe a pair of Speck's new ASC's (good everywhere, great bottom), or a Urei 546 or pair of 545's. Maybe the Manley/Langevin EQ, used, if you can find it.

To do the same job without the DA/AD, there's also the Waves line of plugins, specifically the Renaissance compressor and EQ. Also try the Bomb Factory plugins (the only gear on this list I don't know- shot in the dark). More money gets you the Crane Song HEDD, which may be what you're asking for without knowing it. Good luck!

Originally posted by mark:
Hmmmm, well, thanks to everyone for posting in this thread. I'm sure all of you meant to be helpful.

Mark

Ah, well... I would try that Manley Vari-Mu you've been raving about in the other thread. hehe.

Originally posted by Mixerman:
How can you say that??!! Everyone uses the 888's. Don't you think that if they were terrible, big-time producers and engineers would use something else?

Mixerman

Ooo, are you joking? just cus everyone likes or pretends that they like something doesn't mean that it's good...

ie:
Jorge Bush jr being elected
britney spears, destiny's child, ricky martin etc
hitler
porn/smut trade
cadillacs
"audiophile" equipment etc etc etc

most people are deaf as a slug or if they aren't deaf they have no clue how to listen to engineering or composition etc. anyways, "quality" is TOTALLY subjective unless you have a set of standards to appraise the "quality" against. 888s may suk to a lot of "engineers" but they may not suk to dumbass PR image orienta-ted fucks who are like, "Oh Wowie, Digidesign! that'll get us all laid!"
:p :p

oh, electronic music??? yah, use a plugin! don't blow a grand on a pre! :)

Originally posted by Faeflora:
Ooo, are you joking?...

Joking? No. Highly sarcastic? Yes.

Mixerman

Hey Mark
I think it's probably a mistake to think about running back out of your converters to sort of re-amp your synth or drum tracks. Add the grunge on the way in. Try the cheap stuff for this like the ART Dual MP, not much of a mic pre but it can be pretty cool for adding some zing to a synth patch. Same goes for the Meek stuff and old effects boxes. I've used some old guitar stuff Marshall pres and Peavey psuedo pres, that are crap on guitars but can hash up synth stuff in interesting ways. You can also do cool stuff to drum sounds by a sort of re-amping. Take a couple of 12" toms and bolt them together with a speaker in between. Put a skin on the other ends and send a snare or kick track to the speaker and stick a 57 or 421 or whatever in a hole in the tom skin. you won't believe the cool sounds you can get and add an organic element to those digi signals. Remember tho' when you use weird sounding stuff to spice up your synth, you have to know what you want, in your mix, cause you're committing the sound to the track. Or you can go the plugin route. Thing is a noise you place there ,and want, is preferrable to the noises you don't want, ie artifacts from running through more AD|DA conversions than you need to. Unless you're tracking to the DAW but mixing to tape through an analog board, in which case of of this is moot. ;-) Take care Logan

To answer you initial question; don’t sweat it, you already have some of the best pres *under 1k* (or probably 1,500) already. It seems that Mackie mixers are often used as a standard to describe border line “semi-pro” mixers. This is not an unfair assumption. However, most people don’t have a clue about the XDR pres which are loaded into newer Mackie VLZ Pro mixers. The channel eqs, auxs, etc do suck. But the pres alone are not bad at all. No, they're not the same as 2k and up pre amp boxes but that’s not what your looking for anyway, right? ;)