Chris
which monitors did you decide on? the smaller room will work better for you if you chose monitors that aren't too big ... if you choose some honkin' big assed mons then you will need more space.

i also think you should study the principals of rooms with golden ratios before you decide what your room boundaries should be ... look it up.

who's bedroom is that? studio walls eating up 6" on the foundation walls, and a foot in the field, you may want to figure that in. and really it depends what you are recording.

you have great ceiling height for a basement. i'd let the control room dimensions be detirmend by that number and start working from there. if you figure your untreated new ceiling shell would be anywhere from a couple inches, to maybe a foot, depending on existing things, and design, and ceiling construction, that should give you a reasonable start point for your dimensions.

since you have some pro level sqf it really depends on your preference of a mixer vs performer. you probablly do both. in your split drawing that 'live' side would make a nice sized control room. and a nice sized booth for the other side. it wouldn't all be straight lines by the time you were done most likely, or maybe they would.

either that or make the coolest live room you can in that space and stick a monitoring area in there somewhere.

right... you wann know which one to do. i think it comes down to whats more important to you. tracking or monitoring/mixing. and your budget. i've never calculated the builds i've done on a sqf basis, but i'd say $50 per sqf isn't a horrible estimate, w/ 75 being more end resultish. by the time the screws, and paint and finish stuff is up, 100, is probably pretty realistic. and that really doesn't count much labor. friends will work for beer :)

if it were me, and i had money for either thing, i'd probably build a 'full' sized control room, and have whatever is left for tracking. my thought process being, that an at least 70/30 split of my time would be spent in the mix room. w/ technology as it is even huge budget records are useing sound replacement, and a decent booth like a 10x13x9 would be fine for pro level vocals, singer songwriters. if you need a large room just contract w/ a bigger spot. if you get to know thw place it could be a wedding hall or whatever.

someone's gonna say read the sticky.

my (humble) personal experience is that accurate control rooms are not common in basement builds. w/ so many options for tracking based on technique, and technology, i think an accurate mix room is something you'd have that most people won't. while i love nice tracking rooms, your cutting yourself out of a big part of the equation if your monitoring is hap-hazard.

i'm not dead set on either thing, really i see it all ways, and benefits for both extremes, and a middle ground approach. i guess it's really dependent on your cash/credit, expetations, and existing conditions that need to be changed/or need to stay.

take your time. plan. better minds than i will see flaws in the plan, then fix that, then find the next flaw. it's much better in the thinking realm than , take this room down again. i've been 'that guy' to red-do shoddy studio work done by someone else, i knw it's expensive, and time consuming, and heady. at least thinking is free.

If it were me, and my money, I'd put in a dandy home theater and bank the rest of it.... then when you think you're ready for studio work... you'd have plenty to got to a full studio and hire a real producer.

The golden ratio is an irrational mathematical constant, approximately 1.618.
The golden ratio has fascinated Western intellectuals of diverse interests for at least 2,400 years. According to Mario Livio:
Some of the greatest mathematical minds of all ages, from Pythagoras and Euclid in ancient Greece, through the medieval Italian mathematician Leonardo of Pisa and the Renaissance astronomer Johannes Kepler, to present-day scientific figures such as Oxford physicist Roger Penrose, have spent endless hours over this simple ratio and its properties. But the fascination with the Golden Ratio is not confined just to mathematicians. Biologists, artists, musicians, historians, architects, psychologists, and even mystics have pondered and debated the basis of its ubiquity and appeal. In fact, it is probably fair to say that the Golden Ratio has inspired thinkers of all disciplines like no other number in the history of mathematics
Reference: [="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio"]Golden ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/]="http://en.wikipedia…"]Golden ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/]

Room dimensions typically start from the ceiling hard boundary. If we use the golden ratio then this will produce a room with dimensions based on the ceiling height, then to the width of the room and next the depth of the room.

With an eight foot tall ceiling, based on the Golden ratio we would use 1: 1.62: 2.62, this would be a room with a ceiling height of 8 foot with a width of 13 feet and a depth of 21 feet! WOW! That is a lot of room which is certainly good for the music to expand but you may not have this kind of floor space or money to build something so large.

Imagine if you were lucky enough to have a ten foot ceiling, the room would be so large as to become too expensive to build.

Optimized Room Ratios:

Room ratios have been around for decades and rooms in general have been designed to be pleasing visually and sonically by many builders/ architects. You only have to look around the building you are in right now to recognize this is not something new, it has been around you all your life you just were not aware of this.

The inclusion of room ratios for an acoustical environment is different in that the ratios used have been tested so that the builder has a better starting place than a typical room ratio that a typical builder might use.

Alton Everest ( Master handbook of Acoustics - 4th Edition) presents 3 of the most widely used ratios developed by L.W. Sepmeyer (1965) and M.M. Louden (1971)

Height Width Length
_______________________________ _________
Sepmeyer A. 1.00 1.14 1.39
B. 1.00 1.28 1.54
C. 1.00 1.60 2.33

Louden A 1.00 1.4 1.9
B 1.00 1.3 1.9
C 1.00 1.5 2.5

It must be noted that when these ratios were being tested a ten foot tall ceiling height was assumed. In some detail, we will find out why this was an important aspect to this particular testing procedure.

Based on Loudens first ratio “A”, 1.00, 1.4, 1.9 with a ten foot tall ceiling this would produce a room with the interior finished ceiling height of 10 feet with a interior finished width of 14 feet and a depth of 19 feet. This room will have a volume of 2,660 cubic feet. Plenty of height for the sound to expand and develop and exceeds the 1500 cubic feet room volume limit determined to be the least amount of volume a quality audio environment should have.

(C.L.S. Gilford, Affiliation: British Broadcasting Corporation,“The Acoustic Design of Talks Studios and Listening Rooms” circa 1979, maintained that a “small” room based on the research done would be a room with a volume of 1500 cubic feet. Further he states “It is shown that a distinctive characteristic is that, because their dimensions are comparable with the wavelength of low-frequency sound, the sound field is characterized by strong simple standing-wave patterns which cannot be eliminated without eliminating the reverberation itself. It is shown also that for the audible effects are confined to those associated with simple axial modes and that, by careful adjustment of dimensions, provision of diffusion and the proper distribution of absorbing material, the worst faults can be avoided. “)

An interesting thing happens when we look deeper into these ratios, when we look at the single components of the room and not the end result.

The speed of sound at sea-level is considered to be 1,130 feet per second and in order to get the fundamental frequency of the height or width or length we have to use the equation F=1,130/2xD.

The height of ten feet using the above equation will produce: 1,130/20=56.5Hz. This is important to know since 56.5 Hz relates to the note A1. It actually falls 1.5Hz past the frequency of 55Hz.

The width of 14 feet using the equation F=1,130/2xD (1,130/2x14(28)) = 40.36Hz which closely correlates to 41.20Hz or E1 on a midi keyboard.

The remaining length measurement 19 feet X 2 = 38 produces 1,130/38=29.74Hz, relates closely to 29.14 (A#0/Bb0)

Using the 8 foot ceiling height and Loudens first ratio produces a room 8 feet tall, 11 feet and a few inches wide and 15 feet and a few inches deep. That is about the size of a typical bedroom or the living room in some homes.

The consideration for having a balanced proportional room is valid and worth the effort to use in any sound related type room. A few things to consider along the way. The measurements that are obtained from the ratios define the interior side of the wall.

To that end, ratios are not scalable...they cannot be modified and expect the same results: [[url=http://="http://www.acoustic…"]Room Sizing Tutorial | Acoustics, Audio and Video | University of Salford[/]="http://www.acoustic…"]Room Sizing Tutorial | Acoustics, Audio and Video | University of Salford[/]

Kurt Foster, post: 405979 wrote: Chris
which monitors did you decide on? the smaller room will work better for you if you chose monitors that aren't too big ... if you choose some honkin' big assed mons then you will need more space.

i also think you should study the principals of rooms with golden ratios before you decide what your room boundaries should be ... look it up.

Haven't decided on which ones yet.

I'm familiar with optimal dimensions, I have an app for calculating golden ratios.

kmetal, post: 405984 wrote: who's bedroom is that? studio walls eating up 6" on the foundation walls, and a foot in the field, you may want to figure that in. and really it depends what you are recording.

you have great ceiling height for a basement. i'd let the control room dimensions be detirmend by that number and start working from there. if you figure your untreated new ceiling shell would be anywhere from a couple inches, to maybe a foot, depending on existing things, and design, and ceiling construction, that should give you a reasonable start point for your dimensions.

since you have some pro level sqf it really depends on your preference of a mixer vs performer. you probablly do both. in your split drawing that 'live' side would make a nice sized control room. and a nice sized booth for the other side. it wouldn't all be straight lines by the time you were done most likely, or maybe they would.

either that or make the coolest live room you can in that space and stick a monitoring area in there somewhere.

right... you wann know which one to do. i think it comes down to whats more important to you. tracking or monitoring/mixing. and your budget. i've never calculated the builds i've done on a sqf basis, but i'd say $50 per sqf isn't a horrible estimate, w/ 75 being more end resultish. by the time the screws, and paint and finish stuff is up, 100, is probably pretty realistic. and that really doesn't count much labor. friends will work for beer :)

if it were me, and i had money for either thing, i'd probably build a 'full' sized control room, and have whatever is left for tracking. my thought process being, that an at least 70/30 split of my time would be spent in the mix room. w/ technology as it is even huge budget records are useing sound replacement, and a decent booth like a 10x13x9 would be fine for pro level vocals, singer songwriters. if you need a large room just contract w/ a bigger spot. if you get to know thw place it could be a wedding hall or whatever.

someone's gonna say read the sticky.

my (humble) personal experience is that accurate control rooms are not common in basement builds. w/ so many options for tracking based on technique, and technology, i think an accurate mix room is something you'd have that most people won't. while i love nice tracking rooms, your cutting yourself out of a big part of the equation if your monitoring is hap-hazard.

i'm not dead set on either thing, really i see it all ways, and benefits for both extremes, and a middle ground approach. i guess it's really dependent on your cash/credit, expetations, and existing conditions that need to be changed/or need to stay.

take your time. plan. better minds than i will see flaws in the plan, then fix that, then find the next flaw. it's much better in the thinking realm than , take this room down again. i've been 'that guy' to red-do shoddy studio work done by someone else, i knw it's expensive, and time consuming, and heady. at least thinking is free.

I record and mix live rock bands mostly, also jazz ensembles, so a good sized live room is paramount.

MadMax, post: 405988 wrote: If it were me, and my money, I'd put in a dandy home theater and bank the rest of it.... then when you think you're ready for studio work... you'd have plenty to got to a full studio and hire a real producer.

If I did that, the only thing left to do would be replace all my instruments with flower pots in their place.

If you're really serious about pissin' money away, you're really going to need to address a coupla' issues.

Do you have a budget?
What is the current construction of the existing structure?
Do you have a budget?
Are you willing to remove and block the existing windows?
Do you have a budget?
Can you afford to deal with the fact that this may take 12-18 months to complete, once you have a final design?
Do you have a budget?
Will you do all the contracting yourself, or will you hire it out?
Do you have a budget?
Are you going to put in outside access, or will you have musicians romping through the house at all hours?
Do you have a budget?
Are you prepared for this construction to cost 3 times your budget?

And lastly... do you have a budget?

MadMax, post: 405999 wrote: If you're really serious about pissin' money away, you're really going to need to address a coupla' issues.

Do you have a budget?
What is the current construction of the existing structure?
Do you have a budget?
Are you willing to remove and block the existing windows?
Do you have a budget?
Can you afford to deal with the fact that this may take 12-18 months to complete, once you have a final design?
Do you have a budget?
Will you do all the contracting yourself, or will you hire it out?
Do you have a budget?
Are you going to put in outside access, or will you have musicians romping through the house at all hours?
Do you have a budget?
Are you prepared for this construction to cost 3 times your budget?

And lastly... do you have a budget?

I added the details into the original post.

Here they are though:
"My budget? I work at a local hardware store one night a week to get discounts, so I can get a drywall for cheap and whatever else I need.
Right now I have about $3000 to start with but thats just for drywall, outlet box's, lighting, and whatever framing I'll need.
Labor wise, I've done drywall, framing, electricity many times, so It will be all DIY.

The current construction is a framed (but tangible) unfinished basement, cement floors, 10 ft ceilings in a large part of the space (measured from cement to bottom of trusses).
There are other erea where the heating ducts hang down to about 8ft. The wall that is in photo "B" is a main support wall for the house, so if I decided to not have that there I would
replace it with a wood ceiling beam that would hang down about 1 ft. "

Theres a double door/outside access in the room next to it, so I'll probably just utilize that. The rest of the basement is unfinished so
it's not a big deal to have people track 20 ft across cement.

I'm willing to get rid of the windows, what would be the reason for that?

By the way, I really like your studio, its way nice. Did you read Rods book? Or did he actually help you one on one?

My studio is going to be more for bands on my label, my own band, and personal use.

Ooof... Realistically, you've got 972 sq ft... at a SERIOUSLY conservative cost of $125/sq ft, that gets you a budget of just under $100k. (My cost/sq ft was just a tad over 3x that when it was all said and done.) And I milled my own finish lumber from trees on my property!

An OVERLY conservative estimate of half that $100k as labor, it still puts you at ~$50,000 just for materials. (putting in a 2 room studio, or a 2 room with an iso booth.)

There's an UGLY reality that hardware, caulk and fasteners are close to half the cost of a proper studio build.

Even figuring a very conservative estimate of doing ~80% of the labor BY YOURSELF (as I did), you'd save $40k... but still leaves you at a budget of about $60,000. So, your $3000 is less than 5% of the real budget.

By now you're saying; "It won't cost that much." That's what I said... but even as cheaply as I built this place for, I've spoken to studio builders who had budgets less than 10% of mine, and up to 10 times mine... EVERY SINGLE FINAL COST WAS AT A MINIMUM - THREE TIMES THE BUDGETED AMOUNT. It just plain happens. So, BE PREPARED!!

Going with a 1 room studio is how I'd go... that would save you probably close to half your costs and get you to a budget in the $30k-$50k range.

Again, I know you're STILL thinking, "No way it'll cost that much." My answer is; This is not like ANY construction you've ever done.

Did you take into account design fees? NEW HVAC costs? Existing HVAC rework? Electrical wiring and lighting? (Wire is now almost 6 times the cost of when I built 4 years ago), Possible plumbing rework? Insulation costs? acoustic treatment costs? Lumber costs? Door costs? (I'd conservatively estimate EACH door at $300-$500 each.) Low voltage wiring?? Fees and Inspections? (Failing to get permits and inspections could actually cost you your home and every dime you have.)

Unless you're single and live alone on some major acreage, you're also going to need to address the fact that sound is going to not be appreciated by everyone else in the home... and your neighbors won't appreciate driving bass and drums at 3am coming into their home from the sound leakage from those windows in the basement.

You really need to look over Rod's book... (Proudly, my studio is included in the 2nd edition) and I would also recommend Philip Newell's book "Recording Studio Design" and of course, the venerable classic; Alton Everest's "Master Handbook of Acoustics", as well as search out some of the other Acoustic Forums... John L Sayers, Studio Tips and obviously here.

You can look over my build here at RO to get an idea of what you're in for... (It's a sticky at the top of the forum.) You'll find that Rod actually was the primary designer of my studio, using my initial prints as a guide.

As far as me being mad??? Insane is more like it... Yes, it's your money, time and energy... I just hope you realize that there is no way on God's green earth that you should expect to ever pay the money back, much less gain a profit off a studio. It's something personal for me that I hate to see guys get all enthusiastic about building a studio, only to either fail to plan and execute a solid plan, or they get about a quater of the way through and just give up.

As far as creating a label goes... good luck... I'm 18 months and 5 grand in, so far... and prolly another 6 months and $10k to go.

i see a real problem with you doing the electrical by your self. if / when you go to sell, the real estate agents - brokers / buyers / banks who will finance the sale are all going to want to see the permits for the "improvements". the electrical will be of particular interest as it pertains to fire safety. you may be asked to show permits for the structural improvements as well.

Kurt Foster, post: 406012 wrote: i see a real problem with you doing the electrical by your self. if / when you go to sell, the real estate agents - brokers / buyers / banks who will finance the sale are all going to want to see the permits for the "improvements". the electrical will be of particular interest as it pertains to fire safety. you may be asked to show permits for the structural improvements as well.

I have my electricians license, so no worries.

MadMax, post: 406010 wrote:

Even figuring a very conservative estimate of doing ~80% of the labor BY YOURSELF (as I did), you'd save $40k... but still leaves you at a budget of about $60,000. So, your $3000 is less than 5% of the real budget.

By now you're saying; "It won't cost that much." That's what I said... but even as cheaply as I built this place for, I've spoken to studio builders who had budgets less than 10% of mine, and up to 10 times mine... EVERY SINGLE FINAL COST WAS AT A MINIMUM - THREE TIMES THE BUDGETED AMOUNT. It just plain happens. So, BE PREPARED!!

Going with a 1 room studio is how I'd go... that would save you probably close to half your costs and get you to a budget in the $30k-$50k range.

Again, I know you're STILL thinking, "No way it'll cost that much." My answer is; This is not like ANY construction you've ever done.

Did you take into account design fees? NEW HVAC costs? Existing HVAC rework? Electrical wiring and lighting? (Wire is now almost 6 times the cost of when I built 4 years ago), Possible plumbing rework? Insulation costs? acoustic treatment costs? Lumber costs? Door costs? (I'd conservatively estimate EACH door at $300-$500 each.) Low voltage wiring?? Fees and Inspections? (Failing to get permits and inspections could actually cost you your home and every dime you have.)

Unless you're single and live alone on some major acreage, you're also going to need to address the fact that sound is going to not be appreciated by everyone else in the home... and your neighbors won't appreciate driving bass and drums at 3am coming into their home from the sound leakage from those windows in the basement.

You really need to look over Rod's book... (Proudly, my studio is included in the 2nd edition) and I would also recommend Philip Newell's book "Recording Studio Design" and of course, the venerable classic; Alton Everest's "Master Handbook of Acoustics", as well as search out some of the other Acoustic Forums... John L Sayers, Studio Tips and obviously here.

You can look over my build here at RO to get an idea of what you're in for... (It's a sticky at the top of the forum.) You'll find that Rod actually was the primary designer of my studio, using my initial prints as a guide.

As far as me being mad??? Insane is more like it... Yes, it's your money, time and energy... I just hope you realize that there is no way on God's green earth that you should expect to ever pay the money back, much less gain a profit off a studio. It's something personal for me that I hate to see guys get all enthusiastic about building a studio, only to either fail to plan and execute a solid plan, or they get about a quater of the way through and just give up.

I understand the "Do it right, or don't do it at all" approach for a PROFESSIONAL studio..
However, I am by no means trying build a state of the art professional recording facility, and if I was I sure as hell wouldn't build it in a basement with 9ft ceilings and less than 2000 sqft.

I'm simply just trying to make the good "home studio" with the space I have available, and it's going to be mainly for my 5 piece band rehearsing.
I already have knowledge behind absorption and diffusion to make the room decent. I also have about 40+ 4' thick rockwool absorption panels from my last studio leftover, ready to go.

Again, I'm not trying to build a state of the art professional studio.

Nice, simple home studio, at about $5 a sqft.

ChrisH, post: 406016 wrote: I understand the "Do it right, or don't do it at all" approach for a PROFESSIONAL studio..
However, I am by no means trying build a state of the art professional recording facility, and if I was I sure as hell wouldn't build it in a basement with 9ft ceilings and less than 2000 sqft.

I'm simply just trying to make the good "home studio" with the space I have available, and it's going to be mainly for my 5 piece band rehearsing.
I already have knowledge behind absorption and diffusion to make the room decent. I also have about 40+ 4' thick rockwool absorption panels from my last studio leftover, ready to go.

Again, I'm not trying to build a state of the art professional studio.

Nice, simple home studio, at about $5 a sqft.

Not to be anal... but... if you already have all this knowledge... Why come here?

You should already know the answers to your questions, if that's the case.

that was my impression as well ... it seems you already have it all figured out ... or at least you have all the answers to any points brought up. so what do you expect from us?

This all reminds me of "me" a few months back. Then I got some reality fed to me lol. No easy way to do it even close to that ChrisH but maybe you are thinking very very basic. ??

Max, did you use a WoodMizer? I've been thinking about that for my Lake studio dream that ain't going to happen anytime soon but I keep buying the lottery tickets. Its full of timber and my friend has a plainer. Damn you guys, you got me thinking again. Its a sickness I tell ya.

I apologize for waisting everyones time.
This was a reality check for me, and I thank you.
I have a home studio right now that's only 350 sqft total, so when I got permission to use up a bigger chunk of the basement for
a bigger one, I instantly though "Bigger = Better" without remembering that if I once again don't put the time and money into this studios design and build it's probably not going to be any better acoustically than the last one (a glorified bedroom with rigid fiberglass all over).
After MadMax gave me a reality check on the time, money, effort, and knowledge it takes to build a truly pro studio, I'm sort of discouraged, and almost temped to sale all my gear and just save money to record at pre existing studios, but I love recording and mixing, it's been a passion for eleven years, so that might kill me but it also will probably kill me chasing "big studio" sounds in a basement.
I'm at a crossroads right now cause my studio's acoustics are holding me back from that next step up in sound quality.
I do know allot about absorption and diffusion but what I don't know about is building a room from the ground up so that there's hardly any need for "treatment". I'm assuming Rods book would be the best place to start, or?

What to do, what to do...?

Just for kicks here is my current "studio" i've been dealing with for 6 years.
Also, no I didn't buy a bunch of auralex, but this layout was made 7 years ago and I did see what they suggested.
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://s295.photobu…"]
[/]="http://s295.photobu…"]
[/]

audiokid,

I found a local woodworker who did/does the BIG Woodmizer work for beer money. The shortest timber his would hold was 8'-4" and the longest was 12'-6".

As he cut the boards, I stickered it in what was to become the studio... where it sat for 18 months, air drying. Then a "friend" needed to get a 53' trailer off his property, and I let him put it on my property. I transferred the stickered lumber to the trailer where it sat air drying for another 10 months.

In addition to a planer, you'll need a decent table saw.

ChrisH,

It's not that you're wasting everyone's time... it's more that while you think you can do this on the cheap... and you can... it's more the unreal expectation that you can do this as cheap as you think you can.

Get yourself a copy of Sketchup... it's free... and create the floorplan, and then lay out all the details of just the studs. 10' 2x4's are about $4.50/each. You'll easily blow through 100 even making a 1 room studio = $450... not taking into account bottom plates, top plates and bad cuts/waste. Then there's rafters/joists... You'll be screaming when you look at 30' 2x12's or a 35' microlam beam to tie 18' 2x10's to it. I used a microlam beam that's far more than what you'll use, but not all that much... 4 years ago, I think it was about $1200 in total... 4 years ago... So, I'd expect yours to be in that price range at a minimum, given that the value of the dollar has plummeted so badly.

Now add R13, R19 and/or R30 to fill all those bays... probably somewhere around another $500...

Even if you just used plywood/OSB for the ceiling (to add enough mass to knock down sound transmission to floors above you), you're looking at over 30 sheets @ $35/sheet = a tad over $1000...

So far, just for studs, a load bearing beam, insulation and minimal plywood, your total is $450+$1200+$500+$1000=$3150... and there's no top/bottom plates, doubled studs, joists, caulk, nails, hangers, ties, wire, conduit, wall boxes, low voltage wire boxes, interconnect, doors, hardware, lighting, HVAC, gypsum, screws, mud/tape, or much of anything in the way of finishes or paint... and this is just for a one room studio to be done on the cheap... add a control room and/or iso booth, and you could easily drive costs skyward with glass and additional doors... much less increased lumber costs for walls and joists.

Again, I'm an experienced carpenter with framing and cabinetry experience and a degree in electronics engineering... so it's not like I walked into this completely blind...but it damn sure was a wake up call to just how different this type of construction is... and the complexity of doing it right.

What I figured out, is that doing it right is the only way to do it. But that does NOT mean doing it as expensively as I could. Just the opposite. With Rod's guiding hand of knowledge and experience and his insistence to use KNOWN assemblies and construction methods, I was able to build a "world class" studio about as cheap as could be done.

The real issue I see, is your expectations are just undershooting what it's really going to cost.

Sure, you can probably spend under $5000 and get it done... but you'll likely be hatin' yourself for not spending the extra to do the project justice... especially when the spouse is raising hell with you for years to come that sleep is impossible when you're working at midnight... That, or you can't work with anyone before 10am or past 9pm because of noise ordinances and/or flying pots and pans.

Look, it's your money... do what you want... but wouldn't it actually be nice to spend a bit extra that actually translates into investment in your home... that won't loose value because it could be sold with the studio actually being able to be converted into a home theater?

not to be a damper, but 3k is not close to enough. 30k it could be done by yourself. rock bands record 'loud and late'. caulking is a necessary evil. i just don't see it happening man, 2x6's are like 8 bucks a pop, for 8 footers. i installed 3x3 laminate glass panes that were like 400 each just for the glass.

not trying to be like un hopeful, but really, you have to re-consider this. w. 3k. i'd probably build the largest rectangle i could, and be done. defiantly need a one room place on this budget. it's easily $3 per sqf for 'each' layer of drywall. so 10 bucks for the layers, add abother 3 for caulking, taping, another dollar for screws, and another 3 for insuluation, then like 3 or four for framing.

that's just raw crap, then add copper wires, and lighting fixtures, and at minimum some standalone ac's, or preferably a ductless split system. there goes a grand.

i'm not being a jerk, i've just worked on studio rooms that 5x ed the original budget expectation. thats how it is. and i haven't even built rooms as elaborate as maxs place. i do know that the science works from testing my lame bedroom studio vs the math. but iso cost money, and ya gotta keep it airtight, and consistent. i despise the fact that a double walled multi layered booth leaks thru a compromised window, and a single sealed solid core door.

i'd make a big ol shell, seal it, and get some blankets w/ 3k. use mic positioning, and cheap lighting to maintain inspiration.

Alright, I get what you're saying, and I'm now very interested in "doing it right", for as cheap as possible of course.
Couple things I wanted to fill you guys in with is the fact that the walls are already framed, and packed with insulation. The ceiling already has 1 ft floor joists so I'm confused why I'd need more, is it to vault the ceiling?

ChrisH, post: 406045 wrote: Alright, I get what you're saying, and I'm now very interested in "doing it right", for as cheap as possible of course.
Couple things I wanted to fill you guys in with is the fact that the walls are already framed, and packed with insulation. The ceiling already has 1 ft floor joists so I'm confused why I'd need more, is it to vault the ceiling?

It's those kind of details that make a big difference...

I'll go ahead and be the bad boy on the block and remind you to read and reference Rod's sticky at the top of the forum.

Your help received is directly proportional to the amount of information you share with those that are willing to assist.

In this case, it's obvious that you first need to determine how much isolation you need from downstairs to upstairs... then from inside the building to the nearest neighbor.

Once you figure that out, I'm going to suspect that you'll be tearing all of that insulation and framing down to lower it a bit and re-frame an inch or so lower so as to remove the flanking paths and toss in a new ceiling for the room, that is isolated from the floor above and resting on the new wall frames.

After that, it's down to what to do about the existing HVAC, then what needs to be new... and how you plan to approach that.

THEN you can start looking at how much of what needs to be addressed as far as additional isolation/mass, then onward to things like low voltage and high voltage.

Got your copy of Sketchup yet?

ChrisH,

I think the issue here is there is confusion between what is isolation and what is interior acoustics. Isolation is the usual culprit in what eats up a lot of your money in the attempt to develop a mass/air/mass wall assembly. This is a requirement (the MAM) in order to develop a room that has higher Transmission Loss ability commonly referred to as TL.

The reason it eats up money is simple. You have existing exterior boundary walls and in order to develop a M/A/M assembly you must construct NEW interior walls that decouple from the exterior walls to rid the structure as much as possible from flanking paths.

When it comes to sound isolation for your recording studio environment, you only need to keep four things in mind.

(1) Mass: The first line of defense in soundproofing

(2) Decoupling: Break the connections that sound vibrations use to get from one side of a wall to the other.

(3) Distance: Gain better overall sound reduction and increased low frequency isolation.

(4) Absorption: Control mid to high frequency and also damp the individual wall panels.

Interior acoustical treatments do none of the above, they are installed according to the room modes that need control, first reflection points, overhead clouds, back wall absorption/diffusion, front wall absorption, etc. etc.

Does this make any sense in respect to your goals?

Space, post: 406049 wrote: ChrisH,

I think the issue here is there is confusion between what is isolation and what is interior acoustics. Isolation is the usual culprit in what eats up a lot of your money in the attempt to develop a mass/air/mass wall assembly. This is a requirement (the MAM) in order to develop a room that has higher Transmission Loss ability commonly referred to as TL.

DOH!! duh Yuppers!!

That's prolly THE big issue... acoustical treatment is NOT sound proofing and soundproofing is not necessarily acoustical treatment... BUT in a good plan, it's typically integrated into the acoustic treatment scheme... as it's far more cost effective to integrate it from the get go... which requires a decent amount of forethought and planning.... paying special attention to the details.

Space:

Yes, thank you!

"I'm building a new studio in my basement"

See this line that you stated makes those of us that have either built a quality studio or worked on rooms think that you are on board with what we know to be true as it relates to accurate construction.

Max has already completed a project that took years to complete with the help of Rod Gervais.

Kmetal mentioned that some one would mention that you need to read the stickie. I am that someone and I refer it to you now.

http://recording.org/threads/read-this-before-you-post.26684/

This is not to say we are not interested in your project it is only that at least a few of us understand what it takes to achieve the goal you are trying to reach. It is a lot of work and can cost a lot of cash.

Overruns can break you as Max has already stated, overruns and what we call "hidden costs" , electricity and water to do the job.

I did read all the sticky posts just barely, forgot to mention that in my last post.

So I guess my best route for acoustics is just to go with golden ratios?
I was thinking about going farther than just golden ratios, like finding how and where to effectively angle walls and ceilings to minimize modes and standing waves.

Is Rods book my best bet for learning all about Acoustics?

"I did read all the sticky posts just barely, forgot to mention that in my last post."

Just barely doesn't cut it.

Space, post: 406060 wrote: "I did read all the sticky posts just barely, forgot to mention that in my last post."

Just barely doesn't cut it.

I getcha, I should've read it before I ever posted this thread

Is Rods book my best bet for learning all about Acoustics?

rods book is your best bet for the technical construction methods, and considerations. think of it as a contractor, it'll tell you the pertinent information about construction, and offer a couple 'right' ways to do it. it covers acoustics, but as the title implies, it's focus is in the building. it is the best 30 bucks you'll spend on your project. that dude does not mess around.

i think you should keep it simple and stick to rectangles. it keeps the rooms large, construction pretty basic, and won't look absurd if you ever try to sell the place. or just hire a pro planner. i've read the books reccomended several times, excpet newells cuz it's like 65 bucks, and i consider my acoustics knowledge, elementry at best. i know the basics basically.

w/ a limited budget, and a not 'all out' approach overall why add more angles into the pot? if nothing else rectangles will be easier to predict for a non pro, easier to build, and maximize your cubic footage. the other option is to copy a design that works, and would fit into your space. i'm not saying that good studious haven't been made by 'just doing it', i'm saying i don't think anyone can afford to keep trying until it's right. so that leaves the possibility of a compromised studio room.

again for a home studio band room, a nice large, temperature controlled, rectangle, w/ some panels or watever should be fine. and w/in budget, which is now at least 25k right? you should be able to have a nice looking isolated room, that makes pretty good recordings.

i think your biggest friend in this project is keeping your room(s) as large as possible. that will help it sound good. just thunkin' ya know

ChrisH, post: 406061 wrote: I getcha, I should've read it before I ever posted this thread

Yup... pretty much.

But here's a perfect example of how you're confusing the hell out of us... Please note that I said US... It's not just one of us... there's at least 4 people who are confused because of your statments. So, it's either your confusion, or it's your wording, lack of wording or some combination of the above. (Bold added for emphasis)

ChrisH, post: 406053 wrote: This thread was never about making a sound proof studio, it was strictly for the acoustic design of the rooms!
I'm not worried about sound leakage into the upstairs and the closed house to ours is 300 fr away.
i understand the difference between room isolation and room acoustics, I never asked how to sound proof these rooms from each other and the rest of the house.

Space:
Thank you for pointing out the confusion.

Now who can help me with my original concern of the size and shape of the room/rooms?

ChrisH, post: 406059 wrote: I did read all the sticky posts just barely, forgot to mention that in my last post.

So I guess my best route for acoustics is just to go with golden ratios?
I was thinking about going farther than just golden ratios, like finding how and where to effectively angle walls and ceilings to minimize modes and standing waves.

I'm not trying to piss you off, nor is anyone else here... but it's obvious that you DON"T know that much about sound proofing NOR acoustics.

If you did, you wouldn't be here asking questions and telling us we don't know what you're doing or want to do. Your ego needs to take a bit of a back seat. Try actually reading with comprehension as your goal... not just trying to get a few tidbits to save you some work, ok?

In all likelihood, you really haven't completely thought through and discovered that to angle the ceiling, you're going to HAVE to add enough load to the floor joists to bring down the building due to the mass involved. You can't just simply slap mass up there and not have structural issues. People die from doing stoopid shit like that.

To PROPERLY (structurally) create angles in the ceiling, you are going to need to put up new walls to suspend that ceiling... which does provide for isolation and improved sound proofing. You should get that concept squared away first and foremost... IF YOU WANT AN ANGLED CEILING, YOU CAN'T SAFELY DO THIS WITH YOUR EXISTING FLOOR JOISTS.

Since you already have framed studs up, those walls are probably already tied to the existing structure (providing flanking paths) and most likely are attached structurally to the floor joists above... which will make it all but impossible to provide space enough to place new ceiling joists and/or ridge beams on the top plates of those walls.

Golden ratios are a lovely concept and while an admirable goal... they aren't the be all end all. e.g. if you knew all that much about acoustic treatment, then you would already know that they're really just a design goal that is all but impossible to end up with... ESPECIALLY when you are dealing with a nominal space as yours, AND given that you are dealing with a far less than adequate situation to take advantage of integrating any of the golden ratios.

When I say far less than adequate, I'm referring to the fact that you already have an existing slab on grade that I'm willing to bet, due to budget, you aren't willing to rip out and re-pour new isolated slabs that would be sized properly for the integration of golden ratios.

A better route, IMHO and experience, is to give up on the concept of a multi room studio... and since you don't seem to give a damn about anything other than just finishing off the space, just put gypsum up and then measure your space for its response profile, and try to slap up some foam and traps to try to tame a few of the bigger issues, and live with the problems you've created and will never solve beyond minimizing problems... because you DON'T have an adequate budget, nor apparently the patience, to accomplish your ideal goal.

If I'm wrong, I apologize, but your constant contradictions and stubborn attitude are making it real hard to help you out here.

Is Rods book my best bet for learning all about Acoustics?

No... your best bet is to get a degree in architectural engineering from the University of Salzburg.

Look, there is no way anyone should expect to learn what you need to know from any one source. I spent the better part of 3 years trying to improve my knowledge in acoustics and now, some 7 years later, I still barely know enough to carry on a decent conversation with folks who DO know this stuff... as it's their life's work and passion... and for me, it's just a part of what I have to deal with as a FOH and Mon audio engineer who also happens to own a studio (that made Mix Magazine's Class of 2010), and does remote recording.

If you want to learn as much as you can about acoustics, proper studio construction and the like... spend some time looking over my suggested reading and go educate yourself by talking with guys in the various forums I suggested... or you could save yourself a lot of time and hire a professional to help you... or you could just finish off the space how you see fit and then, like most "amature basement studio owners", and struggle with a poorly executed design.

It's your money... do what you want...

MadMax, post: 406075 wrote: Yup... pretty much.

But here's a perfect example of how you're confusing the hell out of us... Please note that I said US... It's not just one of us... there's at least 4 people who are confused because of your statments.

You can make that 5. I have been following the thread and have nothing to add to the great posts. IOW I have had nothing to add that was not already written.

Andre

kmetal:

Okay, I will get Rods book, and the other books suggested, and read them from front to back multiple times before I even think about starting.
I'll have to decide after lots of studying if I can even afford, or should go beyond a basic rectangular basement studio.

MadMax:

I apologize for my contradicting statements, and now that I know a little more, I realize I don't know anything about acoustics, just some very basics about treatment.

Promise, no ego here, sorry it came off that way.
I humbly admit I know nothing about this subject, that's why I am here.
I thought I knew a little bit but it's really is nothing at all when you look at the big picture.

I've read everyones posts many times and have absorbed allot of great information from them, and I greatly appreciate it.

Thank You

P.S. Finally got a minute aside from teaching music to download Sketchup.

Chris,
i myself fail to see where all the confusion is coming from. i get it. you don't want to soundproof. you want a design and treatments prescription for a room (or rooms) that will be suitable for monitoring and recording. you are not concerned with sound leakage in or out .. you just want a room that is as close as possible to correct for monitoring and recording.

ok that's simple enough. but you have to be willing to take some advice instead of shooting holes in the solutions that are being offered. otherwise we are in a circle jerk with us shooting holes in your plans and then you shooting holes in our answers. not productive. it's not really that difficult .... you will get all kinds of advice from different people and much of it will be very good.

my 2 cents again .... there are room mode calculators out there. choose one (or more) and run some room calculations ... see where the modes are for the room sizes you have in mind. fwiw i would start again with some known ratios that work ... sepmeyers or goldens or other known established room ratios ... (there are actually BBC standards for recording rooms) and take it from there. the closer you can get to a good room ratio at the start, the fewer mode issues you will have later and therefore the fewer treatments you are going to be forced to use to remedy these issues. square rooms are easier to calculate so it's probably a good idea to forgo any vaulted ceilings or splayed walls ... that stuff is for rooms that are large enough that room modes can be essentially ignored.

and again as far as a monitoring situation, the monitors you choose will dictate how large a space you need or how small of a space you can get away with. if you choose monitors that roll off at 50 Hz you can use a smaller control area ... if you choose speakers that go down to 32Hz (as you have expressed a desire for) then you are going to need a room with a minimum dimension of at least 14 feet! this all relates to how long the waveform is ... it's pretty simple. you can't pack 10 lbs of stuff in a 5 pound bag, no matter what some "wiener boy" says ... you can't make boundaries disappear with traps and absorption. a wall is a wall ... period.

also keep in mind that a room that a mic is going to sound great in may not be an ideal place to monitor .. it's not that simple.

a good book to reference is the Everest book ... there's a lot of great info there including the BBC specs ... anyone who is doing a build out should get a copy imo.

It's all good... and more so if you really do end up taking the time to think through all this insanity... (and now you hopefully unnerstand the "mad" part)

Look... I pissed a BUNCH of money into this pit. Not bragging... just stating the fact that I hemorrhaged a TON of cash, and thankfully, I was able to cover it... but barely. Not everyone is as fortunate or as knut as I am to go down this path. I ain't trying to see you do anything but end up with a good room... and save you from yourself, because of ignorance or gettin' bad information.

It took SEVERAL beatings over the head, by folks who know this stuff, to get me to understand just exactly why there seems to be so many contradictions and wonks in "conventional wisdom" when it comes to this stuff.

Look... if you want angled ceilings.. (and who doesn't?) you might as well take advantage of already having a lot of the lumber you need, already on site... But it's gonna take some serious thunk thru to get there.

I seriously encourage you to look up Paul Woodlock's "Bomb Shelter" studio build over at StudioTips. It's one heck of a primer. Not just in the detail and quality of his construction... but because he goes through the entire process of the design right there for everyone to see and comprehend. It was quite an impression on me and my biggest inspiration that one CAN DIY and come out just fine.

Pay attention to posts by guys like Andre' (above), Eric Desart and especially Rod Gervais.

You'll learn more about what NOT to do... which is probably MORE important than what TO do.

I'm frugal, but I'm not cheap... so, if I can save myself upwards of everything I spent on the studio NOT having to tear it all down to fix the most basic of problems?!?!? Doood.. I'm all over it! You don't have to be a world class designer to do a good job... (but if you can afford it, it's well worth the dime you'll spend to save you re-work and the doubling to tripling of costs to go back and fix it.) It really takes (as Andre's would have us understand) 90% plans and 10% execution. I think it's closer to 75% plans, 20% execution and 5%; pure dumb luck.

With none to poorly made plans, you are almost guaranteed to screw something up. It just can't be helped. Some of this just plain isn't as easy as you think, and actually the opposite is the end result of what you would think.... like your existing wall studs.

One would think that you should be fine with just putting up drywall, right? Well, depending on the flanking paths, you are likely to hear (and record) a radio or TV playing upstairs, someone on the phone or just walking to the fridge, even above a rock band playing full tilt. And just as likely, you'll hear every single truck and car driving within a quarter mile of you.

Why?? Because every enclosure actually concentrates the energy in the enclosure. (The more mass you add to the enclosure, the more energy is concentrated in that enclosure) But remember that it also takes mass to STOP transmission of sound from one enclosure to another. If you have lots of hard ties to the existing structure, anything that happens within the structure, or has enough low frequency energy, will be transmitted within the building and when it reaches each room within that enclosure, that energy is transferred to that enclosure/room. If a room is the correct size, or it's individual components are the right size, it can set up a resonant frequency that will permeate into everything. Each room has it's own resonant (fundamental) frequencies, plus their harmonics. If you don't have energy at a room's fundamental, but you do at a harmonic... you're still screwed, because it's coming in, and you AIN'T gonna stop it w/o taking pains to address isolation.

So, dealing with the flanking is easy, right?? Just don't attach studio walls to the existing house, right? So, you make he walls sit away from the CMU/concrete basement wall by 1". But given your dimensions in one direction or more, let's say you just created a new nodal/nodal point that makes that resonant energy even worse than you would have been had you just slapped up gypsum on the studs. It doesn't happen often, but it happens a lot more than you think... but knowing that you created the issue, you might be able to negate the problem by moving the wall, stiffening the wall, or any number of other solutions. Granted, this isn't a guarantee to happen, but it's certainly likely enough from having heard/read about this many times..

Kurt Foster, post: 406088 wrote: Chris,
i myself fail to see where all the confusion is coming from. i get it. you don't want to soundproof. you want a design and treatments prescription for a room (or rooms) that will be suitable for monitoring and recording. you are not concerned with sound leakage in or out .. you just want a room that is as close as possible to correct for monitoring and recording.

That's exactly what I'm going after, I fortunately don't have to worry much at all about sound escaping.

Kurt Foster, post: 406088 wrote:
ok that's simple enough. but you have to be willing to take some advice instead of shooting holes in the solutions that are being offered. otherwise we are in a circle jerk with us shooting holes in your plans and then you shooting holes in our answers. not productive. it's not really that difficult .... you will get all kinds of advice from different people and much of it will be very good.

I wasn't trying to shoot wholes in anyones advice, sorry it came off that way, everyone on this thread knows more about the subjects being discussed than I do. My apologies

Kurt Foster, post: 406088 wrote:
(there are actually BBC standards for recording rooms) and take it from there. the closer you can get to a good room ratio at the start, the fewer mode issues you will have later and therefore the fewer treatments you are going to be forced to use to remedy these issues. square rooms are easier to calculate so it's probably a good idea to forgo any vaulted ceilings or splayed walls ... that stuff is for rooms that are large enough that room modes can be essentially ignored.

Okay, I'll do that. I can't seem to find the BBC standards? Do you know where I can find that?
There's a really easy iphone mode calculator that has all the different ratios to choose from and it does all the math for you.
Its called "AcoustiCalc" if that is helpful to anyone, also do you guys think that it's credible?

Kurt Foster, post: 406088 wrote:
and again as far as a monitoring situation, the monitors you choose will dictate how large a space you need or how small of a space you can get away with. if you choose monitors that roll off at 50 Hz you can use a smaller control area ... if you choose speakers that go down to 32Hz (as you have expressed a desire for) then you are going to need a room with a minimum dimension of at least 14 feet! this all relates to how long the waveform is ... it's pretty simple.

I had no idea that theres a way to calculate you monitors to your rooms size? How do I learn this? Cause that's awesome.

Kurt Foster, post: 406088 wrote:
you can't pack 10 lbs of stuff in a 5 pound bag, no matter what some "wiener boy" says ... you can't make boundaries disappear with traps and absorption. a wall is a wall ... period.

hahaha, that makes all the sense in the world to me, and would explain allot of my disappointment with my last studio.

Ill get that everest book too!

MadMax, post: 406089 wrote: It's all good... and more so if you really do end up taking the time to think through all this insanity... (and now you hopefully unnerstand the "mad" part)

I seriously encourage you to look up Paul Woodlock's "Bomb Shelter" studio build over at StudioTips. It's one heck of a primer.

Pay attention to posts by guys like Andre' (above), Eric Desart and especially Rod Gervais.

Hahaha, yeah you are a little "Mad" but aren't we all?

Okay I will look up that build, and will do!

MadMax, post: 406089 wrote:
Why?? Because every enclosure actually concentrates the energy in the enclosure. (The more mass you add to the enclosure, the more energy is concentrated in that enclosure) But remember that it also takes mass to STOP transmission of sound from one enclosure to another. If you have lots of hard ties to the existing structure, anything that happens within the structure, or has enough low frequency energy, will be transmitted within the building and when it reaches each room within that enclosure, that energy is transferred to that enclosure/room. If a room is the correct size, or it's individual components are the right size, it can set up a resonant frequency that will permeate into everything. Each room has it's own resonant (fundamental) frequencies, plus their harmonics. If you don't have energy at a room's fundamental, but you do at a harmonic... you're still screwed, because it's coming in, and you AIN'T gonna stop it w/o taking pains to address isolation.

So, dealing with the flanking is easy, right?? Just don't attach studio walls to the existing house, right? So, you make he walls sit away from the CMU/concrete basement wall by 1". But given your dimensions in one direction or more, let's say you just created a new nodal/nodal point that makes that resonant energy even worse than you would have been had you just slapped up gypsum on the studs. It doesn't happen often, but it happens a lot more than you think... but knowing that you created the issue, you might be able to negate the problem by moving the wall, stiffening the wall, or any number of other solutions. Granted, this isn't a guarantee to happen, but it's certainly likely enough from having heard/read about this many times..

Those paragraphs blew my mind, I had no Idea you could make sound transfer worse by choosing the wrong room dimensions, I mean it makes sense but wow!

BBC information can be found at my site:
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://edocs.buildt…"]BBC: Recording studio, project rooms and home theater Acoustic related topics and posts , general construction and remodeling[/]="http://edocs.buildt…"]BBC: Recording studio, project rooms and home theater Acoustic related topics and posts , general construction and remodeling[/]

Granted a google search will get you there...but I did the steering for you.

Space, post: 406102 wrote: BBC information can be found at my site:
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://epaper.build…"]BBC: Recording studio, project rooms and home theater Acoustic related topics and posts , general construction and remodeling[/]="http://epaper.build…"]BBC: Recording studio, project rooms and home theater Acoustic related topics and posts , general construction and remodeling[/]

Granted a google search will get you there...but I did the steering for you.

For some reason I couldn't find it before, thank you!

So I read the BBC document on dimensions and one what I got out of it was by using the ceiling height (9ft) for the starting point,
and finding the right range for that ceiling height, it's saying optimal room dimension would be 24.6 ft long by 14.4 feet wide and 9ft ceilings of course.

I had no idea that theres a way to calculate you monitors to your rooms size? How do I learn this? Cause that's awesome.

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.csgnetwo…"]click here[/]="http://www.csgnetwo…"]click here[/]

and i'm glad Space posted the link to the BBC specs ... i looked but couldn't find them ... i think i saw them in the Everest book before ...