Let's face it, all of us at one time or another have heard a new artist on the radio or a video and wondered "Why the hell are they signed and I'm not? They suck!"
What's your take on this controversial and subjective subject?
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Hey,
Against my better judgement, I'm chipping in on this four page thread, as my first post on recording.org. I've been pondering that same question since shortly after I started playing bass in 1980 and guitar in 1985. I think for anyone to get anything "positive" out of this "zen koan" (wrestling with a question that really doesn't have an answer for spiritual growth), we have to stop focusing on how much "they" suck, and what got them where we think they are-- which is not the same thing as where they really are. Our perception of their success is not their reality.
Anyway, I've found that keeping a band together through any length of time is difficult. People's prioritys change, people's egos conflict, girlfriends meddle, and eventually people feel the need to get a "real" job. This only gets more complicated when you actually expect people to work hard at their skills and be professional in ability and attitude. I'd say these issues above are the biggest issues.
Then in each of us are inner conflicts that may prevent us from truely perfecting our art. I recently recorded a singing trio with a talented band behind them. The singers all sing in the very highest range their voices can sing in. The don't sing in "chest voice". It gets grating on your ears, and limits their music a lot. The songs are all pretty good, the musicship and the presentation is very good. When I described "head" "middle" and "chest" voice to the lead singer, and talked about something that I know will help them, I quickly found out I touched a nerve-- like I was being mean. When she is my age maybe she'll finally find out it is ok to sing in the lower register, till then she's limited. For me it was finally realizing that I need to commit as much time to my picking technique as I did to my finger picking technique (classic guitar training, and delta blues background). For a lot of guys the obstacle is clean playing, or playing without six effects pedals, or a big one is playing in various keys. Do you know how many local hot shot guitarists can't play in B flat or D flat?
Also, often they don't really suck. Christina Agulara or how ever you spell it can flat out sing. I wish she sang jazz jazz standards (she probably does or did sing them), she'd infuse some energy into the music. I'd like to hear her sing blues like Shamika Copeland. So what if she doesn't write here own stuff, sometimes a singer should just sing, especially when they are that good. Another one that I think is good is Nelly Furtado. I grew up on Black Sabbath and Hot Tuna, seeing these kinds of artists as talented is a big consession for a guy like me, but maybe that is maturity or pesonal growth.
Finally, all I know is that we need to make the best music we can, play as well as we can, sing as good as possible, play as many good clubs and promote the shows as best we can and work every angle there is. Once we have something to really offer the public, get it to people that will represent you well (I guess this is another step that has luck written all over it). There are clubs here in New Jersey where guys I know have played for like 15 years and will continue to play. The clubs treat the acts like crap, the sound is garbage, and noone with a brain in their head walks in to the club. The next big thing will never be discovered in "Lovesexy" in Hoboken (unless the club changes) or any number of clubs-- I hope that doesn't burst any bubbles.
Play places that are worth playing, and build your audience, play charities, send out press releases. Don't burn 1000 disks unless you're really proud of it, and don't give away 1000 disks, give a way 100-- which will quick turn to 200 anyway-- to real music critics and people that will really play on small radio stations or internet radio. Join every networking organization that will have you and work the system. Get a real producer and a real manager and do what they say. That is probably what "they" did to get where we think they are in spite of sucking.
later,
Styles,
How did I miss your post? Yeah my wife’s Father is from Bakersfield.. That's the connection to Merle and Buck Owens. Jack Trent was from there too. Remember Buck Trent on "Hee Haw"?? "uh huh! ohh yeah!", that guy? That's Jack Trents brother. "Little" Johnny Trent (Jacks son) was my drummer for a long time years ago. I had him out to the house the other night. He says he doesn't drum anymore but I am trying to change his mind. Jack is still alive too but he's getting very old and weak. Sure would like to record him one more time. Fats
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Tannoy, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D , Genelec, Hafler, KRK, and PMC
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
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Uhh..not to be a complete asshole, but you all sound very old and out of touch. I have been signed to 2 major labels and am going for my third with a new band. And I can tell you it is still very much about the song. As for turntables not being instruments, well I guess if you don;t get it you never will, but for the past 3 years tables have outsold guitars, basses and drums. Turntables are very valuable in production. I don't even know why I am wasting my time really. Go on hating.
Just thought I'd weigh in on this topic- sure, there's a lot of crap, contrived, electronic and sampled to death music out there, and we hear it on the radio every day. But there are still guys doing great shit. Some of that you have to go out of your way to find.
What I do find interesting is that with the internet age, many artists can post original material to MP3.com, Soundclick et al. But people still swarm to post- Napster style sharing programs to download professionally recorded music.
As I see the real problem, audio professionals need to get in on this trend. The business model is still a little fuzzy when it comes to making money from unknown artists, but the vehicle is in place to displace the major label/major studio/radio station conglomerate way of introducing new music to new people.
Maybe a web site of music created by new musicians engineered and mastered by real professionals and supported through advertising sales? I'm just brainstorming here, but we're the music professionals- if we don't make it happen, somebody who is not a music professional will. And then we'll have more of the same.
bassplayer said;
Uhh..not to be a complete asshole, but you all sound very old and out of touch. I have been signed to 2 major labels and am going for my third with a new band. And I can tell you it is still very much about the song. As for turntables not being instruments, well I guess if you don’t get it you never will, but for the past 3 years tables have outsold guitars, basses and drums. Turntables are very valuable in production. I don't even know why I am wasting my time really. Go on hating.
Well that sounds pretty hateful itself. You got something against old people? Mark Twain said “Getting old isn’t so bad when you consider the alternative.” Perhaps you should consider the alternative before you get old! Old doesn't always equate to "being out of touch". That is pretty arrogant to say that. Wisdom comes from experience.
You must not be very experienced or have put much work into learning to play bass (you do play bass don't you?) or you would understand what a lot of people are saying when they talk about "turntables not being instruments". Look up the definition of instrument. Turntables are stereo equipment. I don't know why you're wasting our time either. ............... Fats
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Tannoy, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D , Genelec, Hafler, KRK, and PMC
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
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Hey Soundman,
To pick up on your brainstorming, isn't what your describing essentially a spec deal, or an artist development agreement (depending on how it works out)-- at least up to the point of distribution, etc.
So many people are looking at changes in the music industry and wondering what will be in the future. The perfectly legitimate arguments are all sort of cliche now because they've been repeated so many times both by people that have real knowlege and those without (with whom I stand for now, on business matters anyway). Clear Channel, "big" labels, "big" corporations etc are all demons in these cliches.
I don't know how to sort out emotion, nostalgia, and reality from any of this-- but I'm not denying there are problems.
"They suck" which is what started this thread is not a problem, maybe a new thread is needed. Big corporations lossing money is not my problem. Good studios struggle to make money or even survie, that is a problem. Good musicians, arrangers, and artists in general don't have many avenues towards "success", but that has always been the case, and I'd bet that since the end of the big band era we've had more qualified musicians that work for them. I think a bigger "villian" than clear channel is the decline of quality live music venues.
I'm sort of typing off the top of my head here, so at the very least I reserve the right to vehemently disagree with my self on anything I say till what we're now talking about gets more well defined.
later
I think you nailed it in the first paragraph musichair- "point of distribution" Right now that is a moving target.
There is another thread that deals with this topic more directly started by audiokid... I found it after I posted that tome. I think it's somewhere under this section titled "where is the music business going?" or something like that.
Originally posted by TheSoundman:
Just thought I'd weigh in on this topic- sure, there's a lot of crap, contrived, electronic and sampled to death music out there, and we hear it on the radio every day. But there are still guys doing great shit. Some of that you have to go out of your way to find.What I do find interesting is that with the internet age, many artists can post original material to MP3.com, Soundclick et al. But people still swarm to post- Napster style sharing programs to download professionally recorded music.
As I see the real problem, audio professionals need to get in on this trend. The business model is still a little fuzzy when it comes to making money from unknown artists, but the vehicle is in place to displace the major label/major studio/radio station conglomerate way of introducing new music to new people.
Maybe a web site of music created by new musicians engineered and mastered by real professionals and supported through advertising sales? I'm just brainstorming here, but we're the music professionals- if we don't make it happen, somebody who is not a music professional will. And then we'll have more of the same.
well put Soundman! I hope this is one of the reasons RO as created.
:c:
I saw this thread and just had to put in my 2 cents.
I am a frequent visitor to the VS-Planet bulletin board and someone there suggested I give this site some attention. I am not a technical person but I visit these sites to get a better understanding or recording issues. My "status" is that I am nothing more than the garage band mother of a punk band [LARGE MARGE]in Los Angeles.
The kids were 16-17 and performing locally when they were scouted by an A&R person from Universal Polydor and 3 days later we had a "label deal" (now theres an oxymoron!)in writing.
After spending $$$ on entertainment attorneys and 6 weeks of negotiations, my son decided "he would not sell out" and walked away from the table.
So you ask: Why LARGE MARGE???..... image, basic talent, fan base, image, image, and LOTSO LUCK!
Now its 2 yrs later, the kids are still not signed, but they are no longer minors, (I wouldn't call them adults though) their music and their performance has tightened and matured, they are just finishing their first CD, building their fan base, going to school and just beginning "to shop".
Having been through all this with LARGE MARGE now for 2 years, my advice to a band who wants to get signed is 1. get yourself a KILLER CD/demo and 2. then get yourself an EXPERIENCED lawyer who knows who is looking for your genre of music in the industry.
sue
posted October 25, 2002 09:59 AM First, get a big pile of money!
Second, find a good entertainment lawyer (in New York, L.A. or Nashville) and give said stack of money to said laywer. If you are fortunate enough the laywer will actually do something for the money you gave them and get you connected to the record companies or publishers. If said laywer turns out to be a bust, get another big pile of money and another laywer. Repeat steps 1 & 2. That's it...or dumb stupid luck.....Fats.
Hey guys
Hope it's not too late for my two cents. I have to drag up a point made two pages earlier. Who will fill the shoes of the greats? My band certainly wants to do that, but the shoes are big. We want to continue the vein of Jimi Hendrix, The Beatles, The Doors, Led Zeppelin, and so forth. I like Jazz, and Classical but I am admittedly ignorant about them. We are also fans of today's great rock musicians ( who are getting older) The Rolling Stones (still at it), The Red Hot Chili Peppers, Metallica, Days of the New, Alice N Chains (were). There have got to be more people like us out there that want to be great musicians and not just rich and famous. I'm not saying we are the great ones, I'm just saying that there is still hope for music, it just looks bleak right now. In the early Nineties, rock fans like me were spoiled by having the Seattle movement, and then even the cheesy pop seemed cool in a cheesy pop sort of way. Cool bands were abundant. Now all we have are Pale Imitations of Grunge, Korn and their seven-stringed ilk, and the Great pop/country writing machine (*s*hit songs while you wait). My point is, while some of you won't agree with all my list of great musicians, what they have in common is great music. Someone (maybe us?) will pick up the torch. Some of us still want to be adept at our instruments, even though, we know our ass is covered in the studio by professionals like you guys. We don't want to cheat people in to thinking we are something we aren't. We have the strive to be a tight band, and sing/play in tune. There has to be other bands like us. It's annoying to realize that the record companies are in control, but you guys are the music militia. You are the people with the skills and knowledge to make change, or at least a dent in what's happening, so just keep doing it. You may not respect Nirvana, but they upturned the music industry for a short time. Record companies have gotten lax again, and dismissed it as a fluke, so it's about time for a new contender. Everything is too polished again. Apologies for the soapbox-style rant, and please excuse what might have seemed like indirect bragging, because if anyone knows we could improve as a band, it's me. Thanks for listening.
Andy
wow - great thread, and a great site (i am new here). i'd like to offer up a couple of opinions on things...
soundman - i hear you on the new distribution model. i am very excited about the possibility of the net being the new method of distribution. it makes sense to me. i've thought a lot about it & here's what i think. two things could happen:
1) the payola scheme that is our government ...errr i mean lobbyists & government may produce a future where digital rights management is the LAW. this is a very real possibility. in this case, the current incumbent record companies will remain intact, and will profit. status quo.
2) the net is allowed to flourish, and a new breed of middle men emerge. they are the new record companies that give the bands a better deal. eventually these outfits become as bad as the leeches that they replaced. what i am saying is that i think the cycle will repeat itself. i hope i am wrong.
to the older guys that dislike rap/house, etc - i think willi e made some very good points on this topic. it's funny because i really like old country music, but i like some rap as well. i'm not trying to change anyone's opinion (agree to disagree, right :-) but you can keep the label of musician if you want to. however, there is a ton of opportunity now for playing with and manipulating sound. whether it is mashing up loops with a sampler, creating your own sythesis techniques with csound, or scratching on a turntable, these are all viable forms of art. and i know we all agree with this. but it seems to me that the common denominator is the creation of sound. it is funny - i feel like i am stuck between the old crusty guys and the newer generation on this one. i would enjoy drinking beer listening to johnny cash or drinking beer at a turntablist show. wait...never mind. seriously, this is a great site, i've gotten a lot out of it in the last couple of days.
man this tread is like the energizer bunny...it keeps going and going LOL
I read a great story that shows how record companies hesitate to actually try something different.
It was an article about Kid Rocks new album "cocky". (printed before the album was actually released)
The article said that he had 36 songs in the can for "cocky". The record company was not very happy with the direction the project was heading. Out of 36 songs they were hard pressed to come up with half an album of the hip hop rock that propelled "devil without a cause" into platinum status. The record company was kind of panicing...it was like "oh my God, he's doing a country album!" The article went on to say that he has the last studio recording of the late great Leon Wilkinson (lynyrd skynyrds bassist) in the can...unreleased so far. The record company put everything that even sounded close to hip hop on the record (about half the album). The 1st single was "forever" which was the same old same old from kid rock. Our band is doing some hip hop stuff (bad as I hate it) so i bought the album. It is a really good album...very clasic rock oriented...surprized me. Anyway, there is a country ballad duet with him and cheral crow "picture"...damn good song...excellent writing (who would have dreamed kid rock could write a strong country love ballad like that). My drummer and I were listening to that song and we agreed..."man, he could cross over to the country charts with that one...and its not too twangy to hit the top of the pop charts"
Well, they record company released 2 more singles from the record (with little results) as the album continued to slip down the billboard charts...basically dead in the water.
Fast forward to a couple of months ago.."picture" is on the radio and im thinkin' "wonder what took them so long to release the BEST song on the album". I thought maybe it was a marketing ploy to keep the album on the charts as long as possible...wrong.
I am in the book store reading various mag articles and found another article on this subject. This article talked about the fact that Kid Rock has been fighting with the record company tooth and nail since the album came out, trying to convice them to release "picture" as a single. The record company fought him on that every step of the way, they didn't want to "damage" his rap rock image, alianate his fans, and basically kill his career.
Well the gave in when the album had slipped to #70 on the billboard charts and released "picture" as a single. The album did a blast off up the billboard charts and last time i checked it was #7 on the billboard top 100 (along with the "fastest mover" designation). Not bad for an album that has been on the billboard top 100 for 70 weeks.
that would make a good "rest of the story" for a paul harvey show.
I wanted to bring this up because it illustrates the mentality of record companies and shows what artist's have to deal with when they want to do something just a little different from what is "expected" of them
it proves something else...sometimes when you grow as an artist you will alianate some of you core fanbase....but you open the door for a different fanbase.
Hank Williams Jr. is a good example of that.
I think that the engineers should take a step back and say, "Hell I made that Pratt sound petty bloody good", then hang it up and forget it. It's your job to turn s!#* into gold.
I want to shake the hand of the man that made Avril Latrine sound deshhhcent, with just a rack full of de-eshhhhhers and compreshhhhhhersss! The girl sounds like she sings with an exec's shhhhhhhlong in her mouth. And then there's Kelly Osbourne and the autotune fairy.....
I have read read through this thread and I agree with pretty much everything that has been said about the sad state of the music biz....
I used to spend my entire day ranting to anyone who would listen (and those who wouldn't) about how wrong it all was and how, if I was running things then the world would have only great music, indeed real music to choose from and how my band should be given a chance.
One day I had an awakening, that all the time I/we spend complaining about this situation it is consuming us and our own creative energy.
while we are all agreeing with each other and proving each other point of you to be righteous, all those "talentless S***s" out there are making progress, oblivious to the fact that they are talentless and that we here don't agree with what they stand for.
So I propose that we invest all of our energy making the music/art that we love to make instead of how the world should be. This way there is more chance of us changing the world with a clear intent to be authentic creative people instead of critics of a collective who do not care about our rantings...
So lets all get in action as I'm pretty sure of the wealth of talent that exists on this forum.
All the best Guys and Gals...
Having read the entire thread, there are a few things I want to respond to. I totally agree that this forum is a place to exchange ideas, and you all are entitled to yours, as I am mine.
when the listener thinks that ebonics is a viable language
A great deal of african and african american scholars have produced studies on black english, DECADES before it was coined ebonics. The short of it is:
1. The sentence structure of black america is derived in part from the language structure that african slaves were accustomed to and uprooted from. As an example, dual negatives are common in many native african tongues.
2. Many of the adaptations to words are due to what feels comfortable to say. As an example, a french person speaking english will say za or zee, whereas I might say da or de. A 5 second study into the geographical nomenclature of Africa, reveals an abundance of strong d's and b's
3. Most importantly. Define language:
Communication of thoughts and feelings through a system of arbitrary signals. (Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language)
Any means of conveying or communicating ideas...
Note:Language consists in the oral utterance of sounds which usage has made the representatives of ideas. When two or more persons customarily annex the same sounds to the same ideas, the expression of these sounds by one person communicates his ideas to another. This is the primary sense of language, the use of which is to communicate the thoughts of one person to another through the organs of hearing. Articulate sounds are represented to the eye by letters, marks, or characters, which form words.(Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary)
With this definition, it is easy to see that black english is indeed a viable language, even if you call it ebonics. The only criterion is that it is used to effectively communicate ideas from one person to another.
Rap: dosen't most of this sound the same..or is it just me. all the filty language and extream subject matter had shock value back in the 80's but now its been done to death and then some.
Depends on the source of the Rap you hear. What little of it reaches your ear is probably terribly rehashed. Check out Dead Prez, Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Outkast, Wu Tang.
When (German)HipHop/Rap got big over here, they signed everyone, without looking at the skills nor the potential (exceptions apply as usual)
Same thing happened here in the states. When Hip Hop exploded over here, it was in part due to the sensationalism of the Public Enemy's and NWAs. Now we have a deluge of "I'm gonna kill your momma if you don't pay me" and "I want to stick my outie in your three innies" and "I'm bigger better and badder than you" rappers.
Its a shame if you ask me. It seems the origin of the artform is lost. The griot tradition of Africa, the poetic traditions of all world societies, the narrative traditions of the great fiction writers. Imposed over music. These are the wells from which hip hop springs. It makes me sad to see the modern state of the artform.
I am a stick in the mud, I did my share of rap productions from 90-00 and made a nice share of cash..and some of it I actually liked but it has gone totally in the gutter now...it was pretty bad then but at least I had real strings and real artists on the rap productions I worked with. Now you have "beat doctors" make 120 grand a track for something my Dog could punch up on an SR16 in 10 mins if I laided it on the floor and had her walk over it..
Totally agree.
:Except: If it were that easy, we all would be doing it. Why are we not?
I can not understand how can someone buy and support such a trash like Eminem.
but I like Hip Hop, them Dre's, them Timbaland's and them Eminem's.
I personally don't care for Eminem as an artist, but I cannot deny his talent as a lyricist.
What really tickles me is that he has been made the measuring stick. And we all know why. He is IMO nowhere near the best current rapper. And he isn't even on my top 100 all time list. I could tell you who I think is best, but it doesn't matter. Nas is a much better story-teller. KRS-One has a better flow. Dre from Outkast has more ingenious subject matter. I could go on.
As for Hip Hop it started with samples, but not because the youth was lazy. No, it was because the black youth in the ghetto's wanted to be able to make the same cool music like their idols.
Hip Hop started at a house party. Some guy grabbed the DJ's mic and started saying a rhyme in time with a Parliament song.
First, reading back I will say that I should have said “Most” rap is not music. I don’t care much myself for blanket statements but sometimes
Again it depends on what reaches your ears. I do have the opinion that most rap that is mainstreamed is terrible, but isn't that the same for most other genres today?
This is a fact IMO.
Good one Kurt!!!! As a matter of fact I'm gonna change my signature! Can I plagiarize you?
In the 50’s and 60’s if you couldn’t really perform, it was cost prohibitive to try to record you. It simply cost too much to try to fix it in most cases. The cheapest way to make a recording was to go out and book the best musicians possible. This contributed to the high level of quality in those recordings. The same is not true today.
Best point I've seen so far on this topic.
I just picked up an Alesis SR-16, and a rhyming dictionary. I've got lots of bass loops too. I'm starting the recording today, so the 16 cut CD should be finished by Friday at the latest. Oh, rap takes talent alrght, I'm just really fast.
Of course the sarcasm may have been a bit over the top, but then again - it was intended to be. Maybe I'm just too old school, but I don't see how the same "ta, boom, boom, cha" beat set to different lyrics/words/insults, whatever, can be described as an artform.
I'm waiting.
I have nothing else to say. Those who judge without basis are..... C'mon everybody say it with me. If you had a basis for your opinion, maybe I would respond.
Just my 2 cents. There, I'm broke
mitz
Kurt,
You are a very opinionated individual, but, because your opinion is based in study of the topic in hand, I respect you and I respect your opinion.
My nephew is a rapper. He calls himself Young Mischif. I do his production. I am a piano player (he is too) who, without the aid of an ensemble, use synthesizers and samplers to create my tracks.
Yes I sample. However I don't just arbitrarily take a 4 bar clip and loop it. And I don't do it on every song, maybe one out of ten. My sampling technique is to take a number of songs, extract .5 or 1 second clips, and create something. Not rocket science, but definitely not easy, and IMO it definitely qualifies as an artform. Just like clipping pictures to make something new, or picking through trash to build a metal statue.
I am not too familiar with the early Oakland rap scene, so I'll tread lightly. In the Atlantic North East, the emphasis is, was, and will be on lyricism. Or in other words, Its not what you say, but how you say it. In other places its different. In the early New York hip hop scene, the emphasis was on the lyrics, so in a sense it was laziness to jack a beat from Blondie, but in another sense, they didn't have access to the facilities that would allow them (or others) to create a musical backing to their lyrics.
It is here where I think you are wrong. Count Basie, Duke, et al, played an instrument. They had a need to acquire that instrument. the voice is a built in instrument. A lyricist has no need to study another instrument to perform his craft. He needs to study his instrument of choice, his voice.
So where do these lyricists acquire the composition that they will rap to? If they don't have the budget, they get a turntable and sample it. Simple as that. In some cases it is abused, but have a listen to DJ Premier. That is art. That is music.
An excerpt of my nephew's chorus to a song called Dirty Kid:
Psst, There goes the dirty kid with his off brand clothes, he needs a chisel just to get the crust up off that nose, you know his daddy isn't with him and his momma is poor......
Psst, There goes the dirty kid in his hand-me-downs, ....... they can't be brown......
He was a dirty kid and so was I. The point of that is that there is an alternative, it's not all shoot-em-up and bang bang. In the composition I used some gated compressed drum samples, a syncopated woodblock rhythm, a theremin patch, some sampled marimbas, and a moogish bass.
mitz
Originally posted by Cedar Flat Fats:
Some of my thoughts, and it’s not gospel, just an opinion. This is a long winded one so hang on…. :D
First, Willi, the whole premise of the thread “Why in the hell are they signed and I’m not? They suck!” is bitter, what did you expect? You walked into this with your eyes open. No room for hurt feelings their IMO.
Second and again an opinion. Rap is not music. Except if musicians play on it (original tracks). If it is sampled and loops it is not music. Music is something that is played by musicians. I’m not saying it isn’t an art form, it is. But what it is, is assembly art. It is no more music, than a kid clipping pictures from a magazine and pasting them onto a piece of paper, is a painter.
Third, my parents liked the Beatles and Bob Dylan. We also grooved to Melvin Van Peebles together (in the 60’s). It was good music / poetry and they knew it. My Mom didn’t much care for the Monkees. Now I can understand why.
Forth, Brittany and Christina are signed because they both have great racks and they look great on the teevee.
Fifth, you said “the DAW thing, just because it's there, that doesn't mean that everybody is "able" to make music.” Well, almost anybody can and it makes me puke! The level of talent required to be in the business has plummeted in the past 10 years. All because of cut and paste, looping and pitch and time correction.
Sixth, the use of chords created before your parents were born … there really isn’t much on the planet that is original thought or people that are having original ideas ... except perhaps quantum mechanics and guys like Steven Hawking.
Seventh the idea that rap / hip hop started because the ghetto kids were disadvantaged and had no means to buy instruments is ludicrous. I lived (actually grew up ) in Oakland CA and believe me, the disadvantaged kids that wanted instruments got them one way or another. The same way they can get $150 sneakers. If this argument held any truth there would have been no Louis Armstrong or Count Bassie or Charlie Parker or Dizzy Gillespie or … well you know. The reason they came up with it was a bunch of no talents figured out they could get girls and impress their friends and maybe even find a way to the “large life”. My parents wern't rich, I went to school in old clothes and holes in my shoes. But I still learned music, without the benefit of lessons. Lots of the musicians from the UK like the Beatles and Eric Clapton etc all came up disadvantaged. It didn’t stop them from becoming world class musicians.
Finally, yes … a person who is not a musician should be “excluded” from the ranks of musicians. This is not elitism but rather just a job description. Saying different is tantamount to saying a person who hasn’t studied medicine should be a doctor. BTW I understand the difference between Euro and American RAP. If you lived here in the States you would understand why so many of us have a negative opinion of rap and rappers. It is a degrading form of entertainment aimed at the most base instincts of humans. I personally would prefer to see a more uplifting form of entertainment taking all the space in the airwaves and on the teevee.
Most important, all this aside, please don’t take this all as you’re not being wanted here. That is not the case. I personally have enjoyed our exchanges and I believe you have a lot to offer to RO. Peace out …. Fats
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Tannoy, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D , Genelec, Hafler, KRK, and PMC
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
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Anyone who slags all of hip-hop on the basis of what they see on MTV would be well served to read this article and listen to a few of the artists mentioned in it:
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.pitchfor…"]11 Introductions to Underground Hip-Hop[/]="http://www.pitchfor…"]11 Introductions to Underground Hip-Hop[/]
It's not sampling or the beats that are killing hip hop....
It's The Lyrics.......(Well the ones that are being played on the radio 24 seven for that matter)....
I personally love hip hop....
Is the turntable an instrument,...Ah No...
Music is music.......
If sampling can't be used to make music, then u might as well forget about acoustic instruments,...Cause we're like sampling God (his sound) or something......
And u might as well forget about any kind of electronic keyboards for that matter...U know real musicians use those....So why not sampling either.......
I do agree Hip Hop sucks right now....It's in some kind of rut now.....It's not fresh anymore...The Labels are directing it's progress now, now that they figured they can make money out of it (there straight pimping hip hop)....We should just hope that the next generation starts figuring out that the labels are trying to brainwash us,....And support real music........
Music doesn't have to be complex to be good...
But the labels are pushing this lowest common denomiator rap muisc,...That it has to appeal to everyone,...It has just lost it's soul........
That's my perspective anyway....
It's kinda of funny how my perspective's different from the others....It's true that the labels are trying find demographic niches...(But in the case with rap) they're trying to make it appeal to the most amount of people as possible,...(why isn't there political rap, or
real underground hip hop being played, or personel stories about life,... realities in the urban communities) cause it doesn't appeal to everybody......
But getting busy and taking drugs does, So lets music about this.....
I do Hip Hop ...
But I also listen to allot of other music....
I listen to allot of Jazz too.....
Bob James is one of my favorites...
note..Bob James is one of the most sampled guy in hip hop (Eric B rakim, Run DMC, etc.... all have used his music)....
To be a good Hip-Hop producer you should know as much about music as you can, jazz, classic rock, afro/cuban, latin etc.....
Originally posted by jimistone:
every once in a while someone sticks by their guns, rufuses to sell out, does what the love and set out to do...whether or not its "whats hot" and actually makes it because of raw talent (stevie ray vahgn comes to mind)
Lots of bands refuse to sell out now. But they have to do it the old fashion way by getting a fan base first. Tool and more recently, Dredg. Both signed with full artistic control. But Tool had a rather large gathering in LA before they even thought about signing. And Dredg had gotten a great underground in the SoCal area before they could get signed. Dredg had to produce their first album on their own budget.
But then again there are bad sides to this. Tool has lots of money and devoted fans. Dredg has no money and devoted fans...
I just want to say before I proceed that (1) I'm not all that old and (2) I like pretty much any musical genre, provided that the artist(s) are talented.
I've heard everyone pretty much agree that today's current crop of artists couldn't sing without the aid of autotune, pitch shifting, etc.. I have to agree. Then I've heard some of the posters claim that the best singing artists were in the 70's and 80's. With this, I strongly disagree. If you would listen to just one album produced in the 30's and 40's, you'd know what a singing artist is! Talk about a lost art form. Those artists didn't have anything like a pitch shifter, or autotune or anything else. It was pure talent, sweat and luck. My general feeling is that if you want to compare music today to anything, why not the standards of the earlier years? Those folks could really, really sing.. And no.. they didn't get to "punch in, punch out" either.
Just my 2 cents.
Those of you who are rereading or perhaps reading this for a first time need to pay particular attention to the comments made early-on by Bob Ohlsson.This is a guy who has been an intergal part of the business for 40 years.And right at its core.It has been the DEATH of real radio that has killed the business as some of us have known it to be.It is the principle reason there are Brittneys and such...It is the principle reason there is so little content on what you hear on a daily basis...It is not about style,it is not about music,it is not about fashion,....it is about MARKETSHARE.Learn to spell that word because thats where the can-o-worms lies in anyones attempts to become pop/rock/country/hiphop/jazz/fusion/anything icons in todays market.The radio that I grew up with was there for entertainment.It was a source of new and cool tunes that prompted me,as a listener,to go to my local record store and buy.It fed the marketability of artists and promoted their sales.To get a record on the radio was the goal of every little garage band around.Now, if you can match the demographic of the sales force of your local station, you might get a bit of airplay.So, as a group,we have to realise what the nature of the beast is,in order to circumvent its very real power over the ART we all wish to share with the rest of the world.The beginnings of such a model for this are being laid down by the independent labels and independently owned and operated radio throughout the world, and I'm hoping that everyone who really cares about MUSIC will support this at the grassroots of its exisitence.No matter what styles,we are all in this together and really, there is no other way to achieve success than to go around what has been erected to keep all but the chosen few, out.
Well put Davedog,
you eloquently stated what I was trying to formalize in my mind. I don't blame the radio conglomerates, they're in it to make money to keep their shareholders happy. I'm more troubled by the laziness of the masses who have easier, cheaper access to GREAT things and don't bother to look past the hype dangled before their noses.
It's a steady diet of McDonald's for the ear/mind. Want a scary thought, picture the 25th high school reunion of this year's graduates. What common musical bond will unite their formative years? I think I'll go listen to some Miles.
I grew up on Stones and the Who, and Zep. My stomach turns when I here the crap that's on the radio nowdays. I can say it's talentless crap etc, but what I really fear is that I am just getting older. I can remember my father saying some of the same things you guys are saying about, "I grew up when real music was being made, not this Rolling Stones crap..." Food for thought. I'm 35 going on 60! Best wishes.
Rob
Like most of us..you´re probably getting older, and it´s time to tune in some oldie-station. Don´t be afraid many of them are close to the 70-ties now. But seriously, music styles channge, faster than you and I would like, there is new generations that has to get their music. But with radio ít´s a little different, most formats seems to concentrate on some unidentified lady between 30-35 who seems to have all the money in the world and love to spend it.
Many of these "crap-songs" are produced by young and very taleted people, mostly working in their protools rigs. I do work for many of these young teams, many of them has never been to "real studio", still they selling million of records. They don´t have the knowledge of acoustics and all that comes with working in a "big studio".
And I belive it´s a part of our responce to first learn and understand how they work and then try to influence them from our background and experience.
At least in sweden I feel that we missed to intrduce one generation into the studioworld, now we have work a little harder to catch the new one.
Regards
Olle
Hey Jamie, I've had that conversation with someone as well. He spent 20 minutes trying to explain that he was creating new music with his turntables, and that meant they were musical instruments. I let him talk until he was done.
Then I asked him to play a C major scale on his 'instrument'. He never brought it up again.
Kase
http://www.minemusic.net
"to hell with the CD sales, download the MP3s and come to the shows!"
A drum kit is a group of instruments. If you tune them right, you can play any scale you want.
I suppose if you get your samples in the right order, you can play a scale on turntables, too. But they're still playing back a recording of someone else's source material.
All a matter of perspective. Lots of people don't consider drummers to be real musicians, either.
Originally posted by Rob Chittum:
I grew up on Stones and the Who, and Zep. My stomach turns when I here the crap that's on the radio nowdays. I can say it's talentless crap etc, but what I really fear is that I am just getting older. I can remember my father saying some of the same things you guys are saying about, "I grew up when real music was being made, not this Rolling Stones crap..." Food for thought. I'm 35 going on 60! Best wishes.Rob
There are genuine physical and psychological reasons for this experience.
A study I read about in college, discussed the playing of 'oldies' records in a hospital which specialised in operations on the elderly - ostensibly to help them relax and assist in recuperation, with music they preferred and were familiar to. The study was done in the 80s and most of the clientele were in 60s and early 70s. The music selection made was, unfortunately, was turn of the century and 1910-20 era dance hall; music that would have been in fashion before the patients were born, or when they were around 10 years old. The patients interviewed were puzzled why the hospital was playing all this quaint "old-fashioned" music.
At the same time, you've got to keep in mind that
1. The whole business of music and radio is different today, than it was when you were younger and more impressionable. The way that bands are selected for promotion and airplay is nowhere near as haphazard, or democratic. The music business has become even more about money-making and even less of an making art. Labels - of all sizes - big or small, are less willing to take risks than ever. I've talked to more than one career indie label musician who's told me that they are going it alone, since the teensy weensy minor labels they are signed to keep pressuring them for 'product' that will keep the label in business, rather than letting them do their own thing.
2. There's a lot of good music being made - perhaps more than ever. However, you have to fight and fight to find it. Perhaps you need to stretch the genres you listen to - music needs to evolve and change in order to remain fresh original and creative. There are only so many chords on a guitar, and only so many ways that a guitar/bass/drums/crooner band can sound before sound derivative of something before them. Check out the electronic music scene for freshness - and no, I'm not talking about that thump-thump-thump crap. I mean: interchill.com , nijatune.com , and dub-beautiful.com 's studio radio station, for a start.
3. You've probably forgotten about all the crap that used to be played on the radio - all you're remembering are the good songs.
Hi Guys,
I've been off-line for awhile so this reply will probably be considered late. Speaking of Merle, a real good friend of mine has a project studio in Bakersfield, and he's recorded a lot of locals lately. Anyway, last Summer he had me come out to track some sessions for him. So we were doing our thing with a bass-player buddy of his, and this bassist brings in a keyboardist, and a drummer who look like they've been on the road a loooong time. I'm thinking, "O.K. just another couple of musicians." We started tracking this tune the bassist wrote, and the drummer, and keyboardist rocked my world. I couldn't believe the groove these guys laid down! They nailed their parts in two takes (bass player, and my guitarist friend took a few more tries to get it right). It was just incredible! So, after the session, we're sitting around shooting the breeze, and I find out the both recorded for Merle on a few albums. I can only remember the Keyboardist's first name. . .it was Mark - and I totally can't recall the drummer's name at all.
O.K., where's all this going? Well, folks, we've come full circle in the thread. Both of these are scraping to make ends meet. The drummer is actually partially disabled. He said it kills his back to sit at a throne for more than a few minutes. He owns a sign company, that he has to sneak into to work, because if Uncle Sugar finds out they'll not only discontinue the pittance they send him each month, but he could be liable for a law suit as well. The keyboardist is doing tiny gigs here and there with his wife, barely making the rent - and a lot of less talented - FAR, FAR, FAR, less talented folks are sitting on millions right now.
I don't know if they signed crappy deals, or got screwed over, or what happened. I didn't ask, and they didn't offer. The point is. . . it sucks. Anyway, that's my Merle story - even though it's one of those "friend of a friend" kind of deals. By the way, I hear folks rag on Bakersfield all the time, and I'll tell you what. . . I met some awesome musicians while I was there. There's a young guitarist named Jeff Subaru, about 22 years old, really nice kid, and he SMOKES a guitar! There was also a super talented girl named Johanna Surat (don't know if the spelling is right) who plays ballads and sings. Man what a voice, and great finger picking as well. If you need to hire some folks, don't rule out Bakersfield. There are some serious jammers out there.