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Alécio Costa 7 April 2003

Hi friends! I am quite far from the USA, down here in the south of Brazil.

I know that Manley, Avalon, API, Focusrite would be much more appropriate gear to improve my console's mic preamps (02R).

However, I would like to have some opinions of yours regarding the following products. Any idea is very wellcomed.

1) Sumit Audio 2BA 221 $589
2) MP20 PreSonus $499
3) M-Audio Tampa $629
4) symetrix 302 dual $260
5) Focusrite Trakmaster $399
6) Focusrite Octapre $+/- 1000
7) Digimax 96KLT $+/- 1000
8) Grace 101 $599
9) dbx 386/376 $499

I wanted some nice stereo mic preamp with a reasonable compressor. No need for tube sound or equalization.

Something that might be reasonable leap from 02R mic preamps, not into having more gear that will not add any quality.
However, also, staying in the $1000 range.

p.s: Kurt mentioned the new 4 channel ISA also.

Thanks in advance
:p:

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Comments

Alécio Costa Wed, 04/30/2003 - 16:27

the idea of a home studio with a digi 001 is fantastic, lots of democracy, you can make your own pre production or do the midi tracking t home and take your session to a pro facilty to record real drums, vocals and mix.
The overall sound that bugs me.
THe digi 001 masters I receive once in a while to master led me to that idea. Some pretty good mixes, but worser than the adat xt stuff guys were doing.

KurtFoster Wed, 04/30/2003 - 17:54

Energy starved you say. Is that the reason why those bigger consoles have outboard PSU, to get more energy into the micpres. If so an Allen&Heath 14:4:2 can distribute more power into it's pres than Allen&Heath 16:2(10 pres Vs 16 pres), right???.

Golli,
Yes, outboard power supplies can deliver more juice to the whole console. It can also provide better filtering and less power supply ripple. By being larger they can have larger capacitors for storing energy and provide more power supply headroom. But an outboard power supply isn't a guarantee of better performance. Case in point, the Mackie 8 Bus has a notoriously weak power supply in spite of it being outboard. As far as less channels, that would depend if the 10 channel console used the same power supply as the 16 channel one.

In regards to the difference in quality between the Allen Heath and a Mackie, there can be many reasons for a given pre or console to sound “warmer” or “darker” than another, one of which is a slower slew rate. This is the time a transient takes to rise from it’s beginning to it’s peak level in a circuit. Kind of like acceleration of a car. Slow slew rates can make something have less treble response. So you see sometimes “darker” or “warmer” isn’t all it’s cracked up to be! I will wrap up saying, I have never heard a small console that sounded really good. I have a couple of small Mackies but I only use them to monitor through, mixing live signals and prerecorded DAW tracks for monitors and headphones. When I do a final mix, it’s all in the box to my CDR burner, monitoring the output of the burner. No recorded signal ever goes through the Mackies, if I can help it at all. Kurt

golli Thu, 05/01/2003 - 11:34

HI Kurt I got a mail from Allen&Heath, regarding the PSU. I asked them if there were a difference in 14:4:2 PSU and 16:2 PSU, here's what I got:

Hi,

The WZ 14 & 16 power supplies are almost identical. The main difference is that the 16 has an extra internal 5V rail and the component layout is slightly different. The power supplies are incorporated on the connector PCB which is obviously different between the two models.

Best regards,

Chris Panks.

Technical Support.
Allen & Heath Ltd.
+44 (0)1326 370166

Does that mean that the extra 5V is for the extra preamps??

KurtFoster Thu, 05/01/2003 - 11:55

Originally posted by Alécio Costa - Brazil:
feijoada (beams with pork stuff)
shrimp sequence ( 3 types of shrimp, from south, where I live)
My north americann friends gain plenty weight when come here
brazilian real barbecue
lol

Carbs.. ahh I love carbs... carbs good! mmmmm

Golli, now the question is is the power supply even adaquate for the 14 channel board. There is a new thread starting about the small format Midas mixers.. check that out. looks nice. I think I will make an inquirey as to getting one to review. Kurt

anonymous Fri, 05/02/2003 - 08:10

I've heard both the Focusrite and the Presonus and IMHO the Digimax is a much better piece. We use 3 of them into a motu 2408 for our live recording rigs and they really sound good. The thing I like the most about them which is unlike say Avalon, Trident, Drawmer and Joe Meek is that the digimax sounds good on almost everything. The others I mentioned have certain things they do well and some they don't do as well. The Joe Meek is good stuff but is very colored. My choice between the two would be the digimax. My .02 cents if it helps.

Cheers,

TG

KurtFoster Fri, 05/02/2003 - 09:45

ACB,
Once you get your vmp -2000, you will hear what I have been trying to tell you about. Don't do anything until you get that pre and you have a listen.

While both the Presonus and the Focusrite platinum series mic pres are a perfect solution for the home recordist, making songwriter demos, they are what I call "prosumer", not complete class A designs but rather partially class A hybrid designs and not of the quality that you require, running a professional facility. Out of all the pres that Tom mentioned, this holds true with the exception of the Avalon. But he is correct is his statement that the Avalon is well suited to certain types of applications and may not be the right choice for everything.

Tom, you guys should get your grubs on one of Sebatrons pres, they are truly exceptional and very versatile. At $375 a channel, in the quad configuration, you will be totally amazed at their performance. Much more in line with a pre that would sell for $1500 per channel. Kurt

KurtFoster Fri, 05/02/2003 - 11:24

Bowsic,
Be patient! It took Alecio' a while to finally hear back from Sebatron.. He is very busy at the moment with a new product release (Thorax) and recuperating from a nasty shock he received while working on a pre. This goes to show the high current availability in these beautiful devices! The shock was so severe, it blinded Sebatron for a few minutes and he fell down a flight of stairs injuring his leg seriously.

The good news is, Sebatron is well on the road to recovery but he is a bit stacked up trying to get caught up with all the orders that piled up while he was out of commission. But just remember, “good things come to those who wait”. Your patience will be rewarded. Kurt

anonymous Sat, 05/03/2003 - 09:03

Presonus Digimax gets some good reviews:

"When I first started recording with the DigiMAX I thought it would be a nice addition to a variety of computer/hard disk-based recording systems, and it is. But I also found it to be an excellent product that would be useful in most any recording application, regardless of whether I was outputting digital audio or feeding the inputs of an analog tape machine. The more I compared the DigiMAX against other preamps the more apparent its value became. This may not be the absolute best sounding mic preamp on the market, but it's my feeling you should expect to pay at least five times more per channel to get something that is notably better. Considering that every channel has its own limiter, the DigiMAX seems like an even better buy."
KEYBOARD MAGAZINE, JUNE 2001

"The beauty of the DigiMAX is that it takes a signal from mic to disk without really compromising at any stage along the way. For something in this price range, it sounds downright luxurious-in fact it packs a lot of punch at any price. You're unlikely to outgrow a unit with this sound quality, construction, and utility in a hurry."
RECORDING MAGAZINE, AUGUST 2001

"I was very impressed by the DigiMAX. The wide range of connection options; the quiet operation; smooth sonic qualities and punchy, musical limiters. As a front end to a DAW or computer-based recording system, the DigiMAX comes into its own. It was with some regret that I let it go back."
AUDIO MEDIA, JUNE 2001

Maybe you can get one of these babies to review Kurt. :) I would be curious to see what you think.

Cheers,

Kevin :c:

KurtFoster Sat, 05/03/2003 - 09:08

Originally posted by Kevin Mixson:
Hi Kurt,

What is your favorite pre-amp?

Cheers,

Kevin

behringer mic2200

lol

--------------------
Eng. Alécio Costa

RUK!RUK!RUK!ARR!ARR!ARR!,SNARF!,CHORTLE!
Yeah that and a Mackie 1604!
Actually I have noticed that pres are a lot like tee-shirts ... there's always a new favorite in the drawer. I have always loved API's and recently as you know I have been raving a lot about Sebatrons pres..but I am currently "in love" with this Millennia STT-1 that I have here. That is such a hard question to answer, it's like asking a painter "What is your favorite color?"

Anything that is a pure Class A design, sounds good to me. Actually I don't think the APIs fall into that catagory, but I still like them. Kurt

anonymous Sat, 05/03/2003 - 20:15

who cares about mic pres ?? why is there such
importance placed on a mic pre ??
if you want to buy a couple of pres, get a pair
of api's in a lunchbox and call it a day. or if you
want something to brag about and sell later on e-bay,
get a neve. or if you want a very special sounding
mic pre with a nice open british sound, buy a
trident a range - or better yet buy one of the dual a range mic pres with the a range 4 band eq to go
with it. they are the sweetest of all - like having
a 4 band pultec. or if you want something of historical
relevance,buy a telefunken - and really enjoy it
while it still works. but i would save my money and
buy my girlfriend a new gift. you will absolutely
get a lot more late night pleasure out of that.

KurtFoster Sat, 05/03/2003 - 21:18

Originally posted by stealthbalance:

if you want to buy a couple of pres, get a pair
of api's in a lunchbox and call it a day. or if you
want something to brag about and sell later on e-bay,
get a neve. or if you want a very special sounding
mic pre with a nice open british sound, buy a
trident a range - or better yet buy one of the dual a range mic pres with the a range 4 band eq to go
with it. they are the sweetest of all - like having
a 4 band pultec. or if you want something of historical
relevance,buy a telefunken - and really enjoy it
while it still works. but i would save my money and
buy my girlfriend a new gift. you will absolutely
get a lot more late night pleasure out of that.

who cares about mic pres ?? why is there such
importance placed on a mic pre ??

I think a mic pre can make a huge difference in how a mic sounds. Just as improtant a choice of mis is selection of a pre. The pres you mention are all nice, especially APIs. The newer Trident stuff, in my opinion, is good but not a first choice all the time. I have some 9098s and I have heard other mic pres that I like better. I have used 1272s many times and I personally don't think they are all that great sounding. Better than a run of the mill pre but not as good as some others I can think of. Tridents old pres were real nice but the new stuff isn't as good in my opinion.

anonymous Sat, 05/03/2003 - 21:57

kurt,
hey man - i agree with you that some mic pres
can make a difference , but unless you are tracking
some jazzbo trio , or a ms matrix stereo technique
vocal & piano wank fest , it only makes a very small
difference. what does make a mega huge difference
is what you do with the sounds you have - thats what
really makes it happen IMO. if some one is of the
opinion and enginnering skill that " hey man -if i have
to add more than 2 db at any frequency - then i'll
change the mic" method , then i can see that they need
all the help they can get and spending the farm on
some hi-fi queer mic pres will probably help them
out a trace. but if you are making modern day
"records" i really dont think it matters- as long as
you beat up the sound that you have. if an engineer
is making "recordings " and is more of a true and
natural flat response performance capturing at the
moment kind of guy - then it can help. it can help
make a more boring but clinically perfect and sterile
recording. i think so much of what goes on today
in the recording world is such smoke and mirrors-
recording has somehow become more important than
making the music has . people doing what is the
cool simple fun creative way of engineering has been
replaced with the correct proper schooled way to
record something just seems more prevelent these days. reading one too many mix magazine articles
about the so called correct way to do things, minding
slew rates and tube this and bit rate that is just so
often missing the boat. but then again most young
enginerrs dont know how to record true musical
instuments like drums,string quartet, a saw, whatever.
if it aint di or midi based they are not knowing what
to do. in my opinion a chimpanzee can engineer
a record - but its the mixer that can really make
it happen. by the way - id buy digidesign pres.

anonymous Sun, 05/04/2003 - 07:08

Haha, Great stuff guys! Oh the joys of the forum life. I'm sitting here with a broken ankle, bored as an inmate doing life. Now i'm reading these post and laughing my butt into the ground. Good points being made by all. I like the "save your money for your girlfriend" thing, there's a lot of truth to that. Mic pre's are nice to have but are not a must for great recordings. Some of the best stuff I have heard was recorded two track stereo. Those are the one's that make you go , WOW! Nah, your bullcrapping. Oh yeah. It really comes down to where you are and how much money is burning a hole in your pocket. It will not stop here, tommorrow a new idea/piece will come out and we will all be whipping the slobber off of our chins all over again. lol. This is good though, it makes for great reading and we all can learn something here as well. StealthBalance, I know a lot of people in the LA area and you sound like someone out of that same crazy bunch, haha. It's all good, they are friends. Do you know R-D..ggio, S-V, D-Pa..., R-Fri..D, S and M-Pac...o, PM me if this is confusing. Great stuff all.

Cheers,

Kevin

Alécio Costa Sun, 05/04/2003 - 08:16

kEVIN, I was walking with a bottle of Pespi on my left hand. When I decided to enter the kitchen, I slipped in the rain. It was the most ridiculous fall I have ever had in my life. Nothing was really broken, but a contusion in left elbow and an entorse on the left ankle. It hurts lot, lots of fisioterapy, 1 month without playing and 20 sessions of fisioteraphy. .. Besiodes, alone at home!
But we will bith survuve!
LOL

I think I should be carrying a Coke Bottle instead!
(Bad joke)

KurtFoster Sun, 05/04/2003 - 08:25

Well I guess we will just have to disagree stealthbalance.. I think pres can make a huge difference. If they didn’t make much of a difference, we could be discussing eq’s or compressors or mics while we all blissfully used our Mckies to pre amp our mics. I have a U87Ai that I was never impressed with. I used it mainly through my MCI console but I had also used the Amek Neve 9098 pre eq with it. It sounded "ok" but I certainly didn't sound great. When I tried it through one of the tube pres I reviewed, it blew my mind. In the review I made a comment that "This pre makes my U87 sound like it looks" or something like that and it does. Recently I have been checking out a different pre, for the review process and once again I was very impressed at the difference it made. I posted a copy of the demonstration recording in the Audio Projects , Streaming critique section here and was told by several of the other mods that the sound was much more open and balanced that another recording I had made using the same mic and gear. Davedogg was here at my house just yesterday and we were comparing recordings of the same acoustic guitar and mic through different mic pres, and it was a world of difference. I have revived 3 different mic pres since I started doing this, I have used the same acoustic guitar and the same U87Ai, set up the same way, and the sound is totally different with each pre. As a matter of fact, I will record an 8 bar piece through each of the 4 mic pres I have here, a Amek Neve 9098, a Speck 5.0, a Sebatron and a Millennia STT-1-ORIGIN in solid state mode and in tube mode with and without the transformer engaged and post the results on Audio Projects , Streaming, critique later today to demonstrate the differences in the pres. That should be seven different samples. I will not use any eq or compression and I will use the same mic, A Neumann U87Ai. .. ok ? Kurt

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