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anonymous 5 November 2000

Lo again,

Just wondered what sorta hours other people work in their studio jobs, whether it be engineering, producing, editing or whatever?

Do you dictate what hours you work, or is it more down the client and gauging how their creativity and enthusiasm is going. ?

How do you deal with those long long sessions - making sure you keep yourself mentally awake?

Cya

Comments

Ang1970 Thu, 11/09/2000 - 21:18

People who aren't from "the industry" don't get it when I tell them "between 20 and 160 hours/week."

If you are freelance, you get to dictate your own hours... (Translation: you take every gig that comes to you and don't ever turn any work down.) If you are a house/staff engineer you're at the mercy of the studio.

Mentally awake? Well, there's coffee. Notice how every studio worth it's salt has a pot waiting for you when you walk in? After a while (5-8 years) you kinda get used to it.

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Angelo Quaglia
AQ Productions

anonymous Fri, 11/10/2000 - 01:31

hehe nice comments all.....

thanks e-cue but it isnt a hobby - I suspect like the rest of you its my life and I love my work! I have no concerns whatsoever about working very long hours.

But still I do look forward to time off... everyone must do every so often. Time off to me is listening to more music / reading etc. but hey its still time off.

As for coffeeeeeee.. man too much of that caffeine cant be good. Need to find something less horrific... gives me chest pains when I drink too much - LOL

What I was actually referring to in terms of sessions was how do you deal with sessions where it is obvious the artist is tired and *should* knock it on the head.... but wants to continue - do you sit there wasting their time and yours?

Just interested, chill peeps on the i work millions of hours competitions as well!

Peace all,
E

Ang1970 Fri, 11/10/2000 - 21:08

If you yourself are not the producer, it really isn't your place to make that call. All you can do is try to get the producer to listen to what is happening so s/he can either tell you to wrap it up or find some way to inspire the talent.

If you are the producer, don't beat around the bush. Tell em, "GET THE F*** OUT OF MY STUDIO!" No, just kidding, hehe. Just say, "We need to wrap this up and start fresh in the morning." New artists don't always know that that's an option.

If the artist is the producer, they may need to learn where the limit of their abilities lies. Trying is the only way they can find out (and if they are paying for the session, they are entitled). Some people know where their limit is, and deliberately push themselves past it in order to elicit performances from a dreamlike state.

Hope that helps,

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Angelo Quaglia
AQ Productions

anonymous Wed, 02/14/2001 - 21:14

Originally posted by SonOfSmawg:
It's not all so bad, though...at least I'm not touring!

Tell me about it!! 60-100 in a studio would be a, "real job," to me, and much preferable to my current situation. Load the truck, drive six hours, sleep four, arrive at the venue, unload the truck (sometimes the crew is great, other times you get stuck with kids), do sound check and rehersal, troubleshoot system, mix monitors (on an ancient Harrison), pack truck, drive five hours.........all for $150 per show. It works out to about minimum wage or less.
Gawd, I love show business!

:p :p

e-cue Thu, 02/15/2001 - 01:53

If audio professionals (studio & live) quit their 'jobs' and got together, we could end world hunger, created world peace, and find a cure for cancer. Personally, I'd trade in all these for phatter kick drums. The only time I consider it work is when I have to chase down my money from some a-hole at the record label that's trying to b.s. me about how my 10th invoice was misplaced.

Guest Thu, 02/15/2001 - 04:52

When I'm producing, our day starts at 10am. I expect the assistant "on venue" at 9a, the engineer between 9:30 and 9:45. We work until 6p, dinner break until 7-ish, then work until Midnight-ish.

I also have a rule called "Sober 'till 6", which is no drugs, no drinking before "dinner break". The assistant must remain 100% sober at all times. The engineer can have a coupla three drinks if he feels it won't get in the way (especially when I'm engineering).

I really hate working past midnight, though sometimes you have a real creative thing going and don't want to break the 'vibe'. I absolutely hate having my days 'turned around' [you know, the get up at 6 in the evening, start the session at 8pm and end at noon, 1p].

Even doing my 'weasel' day gig...it's around 80+ hours a week. Depends on the week.

Guest Thu, 02/15/2001 - 05:00

Originally posted by e-cue:
The only time I consider it work is when I have to chase down my money from some a-hole at the record label that's trying to b.s. me about how my 10th invoice was misplaced.

Sorry I missed this the first time through this thread. May I suggest you learn 'the discipline of the baseball bat'. I've had more than a few of those in my day (one of the main reasons I'm pretty happy being a weasel).

There was one A&R admin moron who tried to string out my money past 100 days...I went to his office and casually explained that when I left his office, I would be taking my money, or his spleen...and I'd really prefer the money. His genius response was "are you threatening me?" Pulling out a switchblade I said: "no, promising"...to which he replied "you're never going to work for this label again"...and I said: "I knew that when you were 60 days late you moron, now get my fuckin' money before I have to hurt you".

It worked, I got my money, and never worked for that label again. Funny, these people think that when they don't pay you but dangle other work infront of you that you'll be motivated to do more work for them to not get paid. Somehow, I miss the wisdom of that logic.

Aaron-Carey Thu, 02/15/2001 - 09:20

Ive gone after people before, only for them to try and guilt trip me, that its MY fault that I depend on my clients paying me! I think a lot of us would be happy if we were payed for even half of the time we spend.
People want the most anal edits, righteous turd polishing, yet when it comes to their bill, dont want to pay even demo rates! I always tell them, " half, just HALF of your daily drug habbit money would pay your bill off! "

anonymous Thu, 02/15/2001 - 10:23

[QUOTE]
"Funny, these people think that when they don't pay you but dangle other work infront of you that you'll be motivated to do more work for them to not get paid. Somehow, I miss the wisdom of that logic."

Fletch, isn't that what internships are based on?

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:p :eek:

Guido Thu, 02/15/2001 - 14:31

I only guarantee my work if I spend no more than 8 hours in the studio on any one session. I honestly feel my hearing/mental wellness is much better because the last 6 years I have stuck closely to that schedule. Anything past 8 hrs. and I'm just guessin' at how it sounds. If we're "close" I have no problem hanging around and finishing. I have spent way too many hours fixing/remixing/recutting tracks I spent 16 hour days working on the first time. Just my opinion, but I have a few associates who do the same thing. Your hearing is precious and I cannot stress the importance of how much long, long days listening, even at reasonably quiet monitor levels, can screw with your ears. Without mine...I'm toast. I know some, however, that will debate the fact that I had "ears" to begin with....

anonymous Sat, 02/17/2001 - 02:28

Yeah 8-9 hours now a days and that is it for me. Its that stupid computer screen that does it, I used to do 12-14 hours no problem with analog. Its the blastered time concentrating editing/comping tracks. Then naming and/or keeping every vocal take. Then listening to said vocal takes to get half a word from one and etc. No one should of every told the musicians about this.

e-cue Sat, 02/17/2001 - 04:42

CARPAL TUNNEL CARPAL TUNNEL!
It's kinda funny how I work behind a computer all day, and then come home to spend more time on the computer. Shesh.
I love the fact that I print stems / keep all my work in protools. Sure, I back it up. But I never give the back-ups to the slimy jerk-offs at the label. It's humerous to watch how quickly I get paid when labels need an emergency edit done.

anonymous Sat, 02/17/2001 - 22:34

After set up I usually limit the session to 6 or 7 hours as IMO the typical artist is out of juice. Once in a while we'll take it longer if it's working for everybody. Fresh is better. It's hard to say for sure but it seems like 40% or so of all the tracks we keep are the very first thing played. My fave is to say, "OK, run through the song so I can get levels and play the whole piece so I can check it all." Hit red and sometimes that's it.

On the money thing I've saved myself lots of grief by getting it +up front+. Labels have to pay half of the projected budget in advance. When that's earned they do it again, half of what's left and so on. Credit has only worked well with established clients. :cool:

Cheers,

TB

nrgmusic Sun, 02/18/2001 - 02:42

E-an wrote:
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What I was actually referring to in terms of sessions was how do you deal with sessions where it is obvious the artist is tired and *should* knock it on the head.... but wants to continue - do you sit there wasting their time and yours?
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Absolutely not!!
If the Artist is tired I will always can the session, exactly for the reason that I do not want to waste their time or mine doing things that will end up in the trash the following day. I just kinda try to break it to them gently but firmly and call it a day. As Tonbarge said I also try to limit the sessions to about 6-7 hours and an absolute max out at 10 if we are on a buzz and to stop the session would lose a crucial performance.

Simon :D

alphajerk Sun, 02/18/2001 - 14:26

absolutely no work in my studio before 2PM. i dont think people [musicians especially] have their brain in order in the morning hours. and sessions can go as late as 5am. i find MOST creativity happends @ 3am.

the only sobriety rule i have is during setup, once signals are flowing... intoxicants should as well. its not until the room spins that it gets difficult to work on music [now if i was doing open heart surgery...]

nrgmusic Mon, 02/19/2001 - 11:34

Quote;
Originally posted by Alphajerk
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the only sobriety rule i have is during setup, once signals are flowing... intoxicants should as well. its not until the room spins that it gets difficult to work on music [now if i was doing open heart surgery...]
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Thats the way to do it!!!

Simon :)

anonymous Wed, 02/21/2001 - 10:34

For me it depends on the session. For tracking I can go for as long as the players can. Some musicians are like workhorse running backs, the longer they play the better they get (up to a point). If I hear things going steadily to shit I'll have 'em take a break. If we come back and it's still crap I'll try to call it till the next day.
Mix sessions I like to keep around 8 hours max when possible. My ears start to lose 'focus' after a while. Highs & mids seem to lose detail. I also like to take a 10 - 15 min. ear break every 2 hours to sort of 'reset' my hearing. Especially if the band/producer like to monitor at high volumes.

anonymous Sun, 03/25/2001 - 11:21

6 to 10 hours is the average for any production--I only wish that my clients could afford more than 4hrs at a production...we generally offer several prices in the studio--$50 per hour,,, turn on the band,, record (16 bit),, and they master elsewhere>>>$100 per (24 bit)and they may get stereo mics on the guitars, or a insert on a channel, a few punch-ins for retakes, etc >>>we have a pre-con with all artists..just to lay on the table what they expect and what they can afford--most tunes are at least $1000.00 per--with 3 tune minimum--building fourth studio in SouthEast soon crystal studios

drumsound Sun, 03/25/2001 - 19:43

As far as it seeming like the client is "slipping" due to whatever I point it out. Some then get re-inspired; some agree and go home. I usually mention that they could be wasting money, this is a small town with very few full time players, they foot their own bills.

A very good and talented client went home in 45 minutes once. He's a self-contained, all on his cheap keyboard, in real time kind of guy. He didn't sequence, he played each part, then sang 4-10 parts. Usually we'd get a song in a 4-6 hour session. One particular night he was not on his game vocally. I mentioned it to him, asked if he wanted to leave, and said yes. The next week he came back and nailed a new song like all the others.

As far as payment, I always get a deposit with new clients, and not timely old clients. I also don't give out tapes or mixes until they are paid in full. One band ended up doing work at the owner’s house to pay off their bill. :D

anonymous Sun, 03/25/2001 - 20:55

I found a really good system for guaranteeing payment from clients that is straightforward but fair. Since the studio is a commercial studio, but owned and operated by me (our "real" daily is $550) I adopt a "this is the way I work, and if it is any other way here is xxx studio down the road" It has worked and I get more respect now than before when I let everyone walk all over me.

So I do it two ways.

1)If they are doing a blockout (daily or longer) they pay me 60% upfront, and then the other 40% on the last day of tracking. That way if they plan on skipping out on the payment, I am paid for the bulk of the work. If they come through with the last 40% I mix and master (I do it all in house).

2)If they do straight hourly, they give me 50% of the estimated (hey, I have been doing this for 10 years, so guitar bands take the same amount of time if they do it right), and pay IN FULL at the end of each session so they have to be caught up each day to continue. It states in my contract that all master tapes are property of the studio, and they don't even get a rough cassette if they aren't paid up.

glitchless Mon, 03/26/2001 - 21:11

I start at 10:am and work till 6 with an optional lunch break. After that I often have to throw the client out so I can back stuff up clean the mess and cook dinner often with a quick trip out to shop and grab the mail. I'm still mucking with crap at 11:30 quite often.
Fortunately I live in the out back and client often bring lunch and feed me as well.
If I'm fixing lots of stuff I don't even get out to shop and end up relying on leftovers from lunch to eat.
As for payment it's half up front mixes only on cassette till were done with the final mix at that point I get the final payment. Mastering is extra.

e-cue Mon, 03/26/2001 - 22:16

Originally posted by Brad Blackwood:
I've got the tough shift - M-F 10-5 maybe 6. I dictate start and stop times, but can be flexible if the client needs it...

One day I hope to 'retire' into mastering. lol.
btw, I have had idiots master of a casette & stiff me. The record couldn't have sold 2 copies if they pressed a double album.
The new sceme to watchout for is people hire a mixer to mix, they mix several tracks, the clients take the recall notes, claim that they went with another mixer & that they won't pay for the mixer's services because they were unsatisfied. I've seen this on the recall end & called (Our business isn't THAT big) the engineer as a professional courtesy.
Look out for each other...

anonymous Tue, 03/27/2001 - 16:31

I consider myself very fortunate in this area. When I was a staffer, the management owned my ass for as many hours as they could get out of me. Not only that, but it included everything that came through the door, from kareoke garbage to the local band wanting to do a record in a day. My longest day to date is a 36-hour session with no breaks. I was game at the time (or else I wouldn't have done it), but looking back - what a bunch of BS!

Ahhhh, history....

Now, no longer working for anyone but myself, I do projects that last anywhere from a week to 6 weeks long. These projects are almost always a distance from my residence, so I am "all project" while on one of these trips. We will work anywhere from 8 to 20 hours a day. I actually prefer the longer blocks, as there's usually nothing better to do. My family is my number one concern, so the project must be worth my time away from them. I will and have turned down gigs that I don't want to do. I may be crazy, but I am at a point in my career where I can't afford to damage my ears working on garbage that the client must listen to at mind-boggling levels constantly. Don't get me wrong, I dig shaking the walls - I'm not THAT old. But I have learned to be cautious, and crank it only for short durations.

Bottom line - I work a total of about 5 months a year. When I'm working, as many hours that we need to put in, I'm all for. When I'm home, I'm raising my daughters. It has got to be a damn good date to take me away from them.

Dave g http://www.groovestainproductions.com

glitchless Tue, 03/27/2001 - 20:46

The new sceme to watchout for is people hire a mixer to mix, they mix several tracks, the clients take the recall notes, claim that they went with another mixer & that they won't pay for the mixer's services because they were unsatisfied.

I just got a bunch of songs that a fellow wants mixed, he wants me to mix first. I offered to do one for a days pay and see if he wants me to do the rest. He didn't want to do this so I sent him some other work I've done as a sample.
I try to dictate hrs. but as I usually end up giving a project price after which I find client roll in later and later and expect to stay later as well.
My biggest grip is that this time of year the phone rings off the hook with folks who want a project ready on the shelfs for Christmas, but the rest of the year nobodies thinking seriously about recording. Last year I was doing double shifts finishing mixes and mastering projects that were overdue to be finished (the late arriving clients) after a full day of tracking another project that was also destinined to run over the due date for the same reason. :mad:

Jon Best Mon, 04/16/2001 - 18:44

I suppose I'm fortunate that I am usually dealing with local/regional unsigned bands and some small indies. Nothing leaves here until you're paid up, and the physical tape is the last thing you pay for. Period. Need roughs? Great. Pay up to when I'm done with them, and they are yours. I lay all this out early, and haven't gotten into any problems yet. I am going to try like hell to never bill anyone, unless they don't need the tapes/mixes until after the bill comes back.

On the money thing I've saved myself lots of grief by getting it +up front+. Labels have to pay half of the projected budget in advance. When that's earned they do it again, half of what's left and so on. Credit has only worked well with established clients. :cool:

Cheers,

TB[/QUOTE]

Jon Best Mon, 04/16/2001 - 18:55

I have a (newish) way of dealing with this one- when I'm mainly engineering, and I am cutting some kind of daily/block deal, I give them a hard end time, and a suggested start. i.e., "I usually work 11-7, and we're ending at 7, but call me and let me know if you're coming in early and I won't charge more."

Dunno if it's going to work. It's been inspired by the latest band I have ever worked with. They have also inspired another rule I am thinking of, mainly either higher rates or automatic start times when I'm doing a night session.

Originally posted by Paul Gitlitz:
I try to dictate hrs. but as I usually end up giving a project price after which I find client roll in later and later and expect to stay later as well. :mad:

anonymous Mon, 04/16/2001 - 19:17

I normally run demo packages from 11am/7:30pm. I do not charge for lunch some bands won't break thinking they are getting charged for it. I will go a little longer and not charge extra if the band is okay. I start my evening sessions at 7:30pm. It makes it easier to have a stock start time so I do not have to think of it.

I have had a few clients get over a thousand behind in paying before I got the money, although will not let it get that high again. Current CD I am doing they are broke as they have done more tracks then they should for the money they have. So I will store there work for a month or so before they can finish it.

pajrul Mon, 04/16/2001 - 20:53

Its amazing how similar, engineers in the audio industries, work all over the world. I can relate to every single post here.
Day job 9 to 5 (music publishing company). Go home, client already waiting in living room. No time to change, go straight up to the project studio room. Work till wee hours. Sleep ?, maybe. Pay money, cash up front before handing over master. (yup, been stiffed too many times too). Lately this is more the norm.
Only difference, here, too little money for too much work

norman rashid
warner chappell music
polished fudge studio

user_gamesound Thu, 04/26/2001 - 09:31

Any of you people get your hours pretty much dictated to/at you?

I'm talking about, "You must be here 9am until 6pm, Monday through Friday PLUS Saturday and Sunday if needed. You get one hour for lunch. Management will notify you about which holidays you may or may not take the day off for. You get a 1 week vacation yearly, but it is not cumulative. We are constantly booked, so any requests for time off will more than likely be denied. Our clients usually expect their music the following day (after everyone has waited until the last minute to get you the tracks, etc.), so if the session runs late, you must get the package to FedEx before the cut-off time (read risk life and limb speeding to the nearest, latest-dropoff-time FedEx location so you don't make the boss look bad, even though it wasn't your fault the guitar player was an hour late). Sorry, but we can't stay not even 1 minute late to help out, that's not our job."

Ok, not too big of a deal, it's just weird having a job in the biz that's a lot like working some corporate, white collar gig....

(and while i'm ranting....)

BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE! "Could you please change the burnt out lightbulbs and also the air conditioning filters while you're at it? Can you take out the garbage and this pile of dripping refuse out back to the dumpster? Could you make us some coffee? Could you get me some water/soda/tylenol/suppositories? I can't get my computer/printer/email/mp3's to work, plus our office network (NON-AUDIO) is down, can you fix it? Could you take over and do my job (in addition to your 3 or 4 jobs) for the rest of the day while I run off to my wife/kids/hair appointment/crack habit/_insert stupid excuse here_? After I go make #2 in the bathroom, can you come and wipe me?"

Ummm, some of this shit can be insulting. Where I've been working for the last few years, anybody in the audio dept. has been the fix-it-whipping-boy for the whole damn building. Just let me do the job I was hired for, goddamnit. OK I ADMIT that some of the things I said are pretty extreme, but not far from the truth. The trade-off here is that by putting up with all of the CRAP above, I get a regular paycheck (!), some very basic health/dental insurance, and some minor fringe benefits (i.e. exploiting studios and equipment off-hours for my own purposes. ;) )...

Sometimes it can make a career you're pretty jazzed about seem like a wrong turn....

anonymous Fri, 04/27/2001 - 01:48

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Goodermuth:
I consider myself very fortunate in this area. When I was a staffer, the management owned my ass for as many hours as they could get out of me. Not only that, but it included everything that came through the door, from kareoke garbage to the local band wanting to do a record in a day. My longest day to date is a 36-hour session with no breaks. I was game at the time (or else I wouldn't have done it), but looking back - what a bunch of BS!

Ahhhh, history....

Great! Any leads on where to get a "staff" position? Y'all can raise your kids while setting your own hours, I want a job working for somebody else. Been there, done that and I do NOT want to be an independent contractor. Sure, I'll work the next 36 hours, as long as I know I have a job tomorrow and a paycheck on Friday.

user_gamesound Fri, 04/27/2001 - 09:43

Originally posted by ujaku:
The trade-off here is that by putting up with all of the CRAP above, I get a regular paycheck (!), some very basic health/dental insurance, and some minor fringe benefits (i.e. exploiting studios and equipment off-hours for my own purposes. ;) )...

as I said, there are trade-offs....a lot of guys are envious of my 'steady' gig and such, and I'm totaly envious of the fact that the independents can pretty much pick and choose who they want to work for....

there's other tade-offs as well: taxes (1099 vs. 1040); a possible bigger client/network base vs. working with/for the same people 9 to 5, M-F; benefits (rare?) vs. you break your leg, YOU pay for it; the ability of REFUSING work if you see fit vs. "it's a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it"; ETC.....I'm sure there's more pros & cons I missed.

captain, alot of it is market dependent, too. if you're out in the burbs/boonies, I guess you can't turn down clients too much.
don't know what the climate is like in Knoxville, but I don't imagine it's on the level of the 3 coasts (east, west, Nashville), so contracting there might be seriously tough....

man, I need a vacation.

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