In regards to what? Other free VST plugs or against commercial high end plugins? Just like most things, the high end plugins cost what they do for a reason. I have not used the Focusrite plugs but have found the GVST plugs to be useful if you end up not liking the Focusrite stuff. Even the really pricey ones don't quite equal the best analog gear but they are quite close IMO.

I am not sure what GVST is. I suppose I am saying compared to other free or modestly priced VST's. My own experience is so limited, it is skewed. The only bundled VST plug ins I have ever used came with Cubase LE4, and they are just brutal. They are so bad, every other free VST plug in available as a download on the internet blew them away. They are so bad, they are an embarrassment to Cubase itself, which does work adequately.

I am wondering if the Focusrite VST's will be sufficient, or whether I will struggle with them for a while only to discover a need for something else. I long discarded the old free dowloads when I switched computers, and would prefer not to download hodge podge in search of free hidden gems. Hopefully, there are at least one or two Saffire users out there to comment.

In the absense of any Saffire users, here's my thoughts: pick your interface on the basis of its features, and the stability of its drivers, not for any bundled plugins. If you pick a Saffire and the plugs turn out to be really good, then thats a bonus.

I'm happy to suggest some free / affordable 'gems' to try if you want... mac or pc?

That is good advice, thanks. Although, it is a bit surprising to think that recording.org might not have any Saffire users. The saffire line does appear to extend into the more professional side of things, and all come with the same bundle.

I am on PC, and would be very appreciative of any recommendations.

Focusrite isn't the company it once was. The Focusrite Red is groovy still but the other stuff is less stellar. The Saffire isn't generally considered as stable in regards to drivers or it's clock as some other interfaces.

For entry level "Pro" stuff, RME gets the love around here. RME spans the gamut of Pro level equipment including full blown record company stuff like the Micstacy, ADI192 etc. Also the RME drivers are rock solid and frequently updated. Not a sales pitch but just an explanation about why finding a Saffire user might be slim pickin's. Or Slim Pickens if you prefer.

I will scout out RME, as this name is brand new to me, but one of the problems with living in a small town is supply. I still travel a good distance to get to the one decent music store that does not require a full day's round trip, and this means having to pretty much go with a product they carry. My initial guess is that they do not carry RME, but I won't know for certain until I call. Sure, one can always order, but a store with walls makes any return or issue that much easier to deal with.

On the other hand, it is worth noting that the Saffire line in particular does seem to get good reviews, and I am now considering their newest firewire model, the pro 14, which has some new patented jitter and clock technology called Jetpll. The downside is that it is so new, there is vitually no feedback on it yet. I have also managed to reach a live human being at Focusrite tech service for questions on two occasions now, and believe me, that counts for a good deal in my book. Let's face it, if supreme sound was my only critieria, I would be looking at a unit costing maybe $2000 instead of $300, so one who is on a budget must make some concessions. A unit that is respectable and vastly more reliable than my new door stop (Presonus Firebox) will be welcomed.

jmm22, post: 355167 wrote:
I am on PC, and would be very appreciative of any recommendations.

For surgical EQ I suggest ReaEQ from [="http://www.reaper.fm/reaplugs/index.php"]the ReaPlugs bundle[/]="http://www.reaper.f…"]the ReaPlugs bundle[/] (free)

For more creative / colourful EQ try [[url=http://="http://www.stillwel…"]Vibe-EQ[/]="http://www.stillwel…"]Vibe-EQ[/] (very affordable, with unrestricted demo)

Also check out [="http://www.ddmf.eu/"]DDMF[/]="http://www.ddmf.eu/"]DDMF[/]

Compressors in the very affordable category include Stillwell's [[url=http://="http://www.stillwel…"]Major Tom[/]="http://www.stillwel…"]Major Tom[/] and [="http://www.stillwellaudio.com/?page_id=68"]The Rocket[/]="http://www.stillwel…"]The Rocket[/] and Voxengo's [[url=http://="http://www.voxengo…"]Crunchessor[/]="http://www.voxengo…"]Crunchessor[/]

In the slightly-more-expensive-but-still-worth-the-money-category try Cytomic's [="http://www.cytomic.com/glue"]The Glue[/]="http://www.cytomic…"]The Glue[/] and FabFilter's [[url=http://="http://www.fabfilte…"]Pro-C[/]="http://www.fabfilte…"]Pro-C[/]

If you want free compressors you could do worse than to click my sig ;)

Also check out Audio Damage's [="http://www.audiodamage.com/downloads/product.php?pid=ADF002"]Rough Rider[/]="http://www.audiodam…"]Rough Rider[/], though its a bit too extreme to be considered a general purpose comp IMO.

Reverb: Audio Damage [[url=http://="http://www.audiodam…"]EOS[/]="http://www.audiodam…"]EOS[/] is amazing value IMO.

You could also try convolution reverb: [="http://www.liquidsonics.com/software.htm"]LiquidSonics[/]="http://www.liquidso…"]LiquidSonics[/] have affordable and free versions available, or there is the venerable classic [[url=http://="http://www.knufinke…"]SIR version 1[/]="http://www.knufinke…"]SIR version 1[/] for free. Download some free impulse files from [[url=http://[/URL]="http://noisevault.c…"]NoiseVault[/]="http://noisevault.c…"]NoiseVault[/] to load into them.

That should keep you going for a while I reckon... :)

I agree, that will keep me busy for a while.Thanks again.

IIRs, I checked out your free compressors. I will try them soon. In the meantime, I have to confess that the whole concept of people making free plug ins is just slightly less perplexing than the origins of the Universe (which I do have a bit of a handle on). Help me to understand. Why do you and other people (bootsy comes to mind) create them? How do you create them? Where do the very diverse graphics come from? If someone wanted to start creating them what things do they need to know, and what resources would need to acquire?

jmm22, post: 355483 wrote: IIRs, I checked out your free compressors. I will try them soon. In the meantime, I have to confess that the whole concept of people making free plug ins is just slightly less perplexing than the origins of the Universe (which I do have a bit of a handle on). Help me to understand. Why do you and other people (bootsy comes to mind) create them? How do you create them? Where do the very diverse graphics come from? If someone wanted to start creating them what things do they need to know, and what resources would need to acquire?

Well I can only speak for myself of course. I make them for my own use, and because I quite enjoy the process; its a bit like playing a puzzle game, except you might end up with something that's actually useful!

Making plugins would normally require a c++ compiler plus c++coding skills, and the sdk (software development kit) for the format. Obviously you would also need a grasp of the DSP involved in whatever you were trying to do.

I don't do it like that however, as I use Synthedit or Synthmaker to do the boring bits like handling graphics or interfacing with the host. Both of these represent blocks of code as "modules" which can be connected with virtual cables, and are somewhere between being modular synths / fx units, and being graphical DSP programming languages. Using those means I don't need the c++ compiler, and I can concentrate on the maths behind the DSP instead of my c++ syntax.

Of course this also means I can only offer vst format plugs for PC: no mac versions, AUs, RTAS or VST3 will be available, unless the SE/SM devs decide to support those formats as well, which seems unlikely at the moment. It also limits the support I could offer: if a user reports a crash in a specific host (for example) there will probably be no way for me to fix it directly, and I would have to just pass on the bug report to the SE/SM devs and hope they give it priority.

I have thought about selling my plugs. However, the lack of alternative formats would greatly reduce my potential market share, and the limited support I could offer would make me feel guilty about charging any more than a token shareware price anyway. I would also need to make a manual, probably also a bank of presets, a demo version, and I would have to implement some type of basic copy protection / licensing system. Basically, I can't be bothered with all that boring stuff: once the plug is working I like to just put it out there and accept the kudos of other users as my reward!

Of course, if a commercial developer is offering a free plug-in it is reasonable to assume its a marketing / promotional tool for the commercial products.

Graphics can be created in any graphics app such as Photoshop. I use the GIMP (a free alternative) plus two other free apps specifically designed for creating GUI elements: Knobman and Skinman

Incidentally, since you mentioned Bootsy: he also uses Synthmaker! My FL4TT3RY compressor uses the RMS detection code that he was kind enough to share on the SM forum. :cool:

Very interesting. Thanks. I notice that for all of the interesting things Bootsy has made, he does not have a compressor. Are compressors any harder to design than other plug-ins?

Look again! [[url=http://[/URL]="http://varietyofsou…"]Density mkII released today! « Variety Of Sound[/]="http://varietyofsou…"]Density mkII released today! « Variety Of Sound[/]

Thanks, I guess I missed it by looking for compressor in the name. It's called a stereo bus compressor. Can such a thing still be used on individual tracks, rather than the whole mix? Not a clever question I know, but as a novice, nothing is obvious.

Yes, you can use it on tracks.

Hi IIRs. I just downloaded your L3V3LL compressor, and will give it some use over the next week. Thanks again. You were kind enough to make several recommendations for effects, and these will indeed keep me busy, but I am missing one more fundamental one, and that is a mastering plug in. Do you have to know of any decent free or inexpensive ones?

If you get your mix right it won't need any more than a volume change during mastering. Depending on your target levels you may need a brickwall limiter or clipper to shave a bit off the peaks. Try the free [="http://www.yohng.com/w1limit.html"]W1[/]="http://www.yohng.co…"]W1[/], or look [[url=http://="http://www.betabugs…"]here[/]="http://www.betabugs…"]here[/] for an alternate version with a gui, or try the [="http://aradaz.blogspot.com/"]Aradaz Maximizer[/]="http://aradaz.blogs…"]Aradaz Maximizer[/].

Clipping can sometimes work better than limiting when dealing with short peaks, so maybe try [[url=http://="http://www.stillwel…"]Event Horizon[/]="http://www.stillwel…"]Event Horizon[/] (this also has a limiter mode which I've not tried yet)

DDMF is planning to release an affordable limiter "soon" [="http://www.ddmf.eu/product.php?id=6"]No Limits[/]="http://www.ddmf.eu/…"]No Limits[/]. You might want to check out his "flexible phase" EQ [[url=http://="http://www.ddmf.eu/…"]LP10[/]="http://www.ddmf.eu/…"]LP10[/], as even good mixes might need small EQ tweaks to make them fit together into an album.

If you need any more than light compression, EQ, and limiting / clipping, you will probably do better to re-visit your mix.

Thanks, I downloaded Aradaz, but could not get anywhwere on the ddmf website. My computer locks up when I try to visit.

There is something I do not understand. I went to Waves Website (nice looking plug ins, but very expensive e.g., $360 for a limiter) and the Maximizer has a dither button, to dither down to 16 bits. I have viewed many free mastering limiter plug ins, and none seem to have a dither function, including Aradaz. Why does the Waves Maximizer have dither function and not the other Mastering plug ins? How do I dither with these others?

jmm22, post: 355947 wrote: could not get anywhwere on the ddmf website. My computer locks up when I try to visit.

Strange. Maybe try a different browser?

jmm22, post: 355947 wrote: Why does the Waves Maximizer have dither function and not the other Mastering plug ins? How do I dither with these others?

Your DAW almost certainly has a perfectly serviceable dither algo built in, and its probably turned on by default. If you wanted to use the dither in Waves Maximizer you would need to make sure the DAWs built-in dither was turned off, otherwise you would be adding dither noise twice and just uselessly raising the noise floor. If your limiter plug doesn't include dither, simply leave the DAW's dither turned on.

O.K., thanks.

I just remembered something from my first experience with recording some years ago, which was short lived. I had a free version of UV22. I am not sure where I got it, but I remember it having to be the last plug in the mastering effects. If I recall correctly, my LE4 changes bit rate, but does not dither. I am not positive about this, but I certainly recall hunting down the dither plug for a good reason.

The daw will dither the whole mix when you mix it down. You shouldn't need a dither on any plugin.

Thanks for the reply john, but in the brief interim, I did some reading, and indeed, LE4 has no dithering. This is after all a free program that came bundled with my Zoom H4. Starting to travel down the mastering road again jogged my memory, and the forum reading confirmed it. In fact, I downloaded the UV22 from Steinberg, but I am not sure how much hope there is that I would find it there again.

I seem to be a fanboi lately, but if you are concerned about it then download Reaper from reaper.fm and give that a go. It has a fully functional free trial and the actual license is dirt cheap. And it's a spiffy little DAW program. If you like Cubase LE a little then you can skin Reaper with Cubase scheme. Also the Reaplugs are pretty darn decent.

It's too bad Cubase LE doesn't dither. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Thanks, I will scout that out. What is a fanboi, or what did you mean by this? If you are referring to having responded to many of my posts, I am very grateful, and in fact just started a thread about more participation from all of those who are just readers. It seems unfair for moderators to shoulder so much of the burdon for answering questions. Regardless, I remain very grateful for your help, and the help of others who have volunteered a disproportionate amount of assistance like you and IIRs

I have also been thinking about buying a new Cubase program, maybe Essentials. My LE4 is several years old, and if I am going to spend a fair amount of time recording, I might solve some problems with a spiffy new program.

fanboi I believe is one of those new fangled jargon words the kids use today denoting someone a might over enthusiastic about a subject/person/thing. I'm not even sure I spelled it correctly but I've heard my son's friends use it. What I meant was that in the last several days I had recommended Reaper quite a bit. It is not my main DAW (Adobe Audition 3.01) but I have begun to explore it's features (Reaper) and am impressed so far. Impressed enough to go through the headache of learning new mixing/summing/mastering habits with a new program.

If you opt to stay with Cubase-and that is a viable thing-then research what features "Essentials" is missing from the full version.

As to Mods shouldering answers, it sort of goes in waves. Several of the Mod's will post is they need to break something up in their particular forum or correct misinformation. Some of us come through in waves. As to the general population, that comes and goes in waves too. Currently everyone is busy with the school year starting up and for people like me, orchestra and chamber music seasons too. That said, it has been a touch quiet here lately. I expect it to pick up soon.

jmm22, post: 355975 wrote: Thanks for the reply john, but in the brief interim, I did some reading, and indeed, LE4 has no dithering.

I'm surprised, but I will take your word for it. Try the free mda dither plug from the classic [[url=http://[/URL]="http://mda.smartele…"]mda bundle[/]="http://mda.smartele…"]mda bundle[/].

jmm22, post: 355975 wrote: In fact, I downloaded the UV22 from Steinberg, but I am not sure how much hope there is that I would find it there again.

If you do manage to find a (legal) download link for a UV22 plug, please share it here. :wink:

btw: you should definitely try Reaper! Thats what I use...

Thanks, I downloaded MDA, so I am back in dither capacity. Admittedly, I will stick with Cubase, if only because one could spend a veritable lifetime just learning about how to work things. The more one reads, the more one becomes aware that it is entirely impractical for someone like me to explore everything one might like to explore.

In fact, with respect to dithering, I am almost certain that I would take my best mixes to a real studio for mastering. But having something functional will allow me to pre-master a sample of the song, to play on different playback devices, before taking the mix for true mastering. Have you used MDA, and if so, how does it fare? There are tons of other effects there as well. Are they respectable? I do like the simplicity of the layouts.

I tried chasing down the link to UV22. In fact, in my reading, I am almost certain I ran into the very forum post (with a link to Steinberg's downloads) that led me to it the first time, but it was no longer in service, so to speak.

MDA dither works fine. The mda effects are pretty old now: I think they were among the first vst plugins ever made. I used to use them all the time, but then I wasn't quite so spoilt for choice back in those days...

Haven't been around for some time, so I just read the post.

I have the Saffire Pro 24 DSP with the bundled plugins. The Saffire interface is quite nice. Good preamps (probably not as good as RME) and pretty stable. The routing with the software mixer can be a bit tricky, but if you understand the concept it's no problem.
I haven't used the plugins in any of my projects. They are nothing special, but okay for a free bundle. I wouldn't buy the interface just because of them.
What I found very handy are the DSP effects, which are basically the same as the vst/au bundle. You can use compressor, eq and reverb for the monitor mix while tracking and record the dry signal. But I'm not sure if the pro 14 has a DSP chip.

I ended up with a Saffire USB 6, which I thoroughly love with respect to stability (a big problem it seems for many HP Vista notebook users attempting to use Firewire interfaces) sound, and function. However, the bundle of plug-ins are just O.K., at least from a GUI perspective. There are much more aesthetically pleasing and intuitive plug ins out there, even free ones, which confirms the observations of others that one has to select an interface based on the the unit itself, and not any free bundles.