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GZsound 29 November 2001

I'm interested in finding mastering software that won't break the bank. I have looked at Sonic Solutions SonicStudio HD but there seem to be no retailers selling it. I also looked at T racks and a couple of others. I'm using a PC with Sonic Foundry Sound Forge and Cool Edit now. What I need is a good two track mastering program...and advice or suggestion would be appreciated.

Comments

anonymous Wed, 01/30/2002 - 09:48

I use the Tascam CD-RW2000. Very cool unit. I use it regularly to make single "masters" (not for production) or compilations where the track IDs & spacing are not critical. I have never had anyone bring a disc back as "un-playable".

As far as making a Production Master, I always use my SCSI burner. The main reason is that, as far as I know, track IDs (PQ indexing) cannot be transferred thru a soundcard from within a Windows app. either in SPDIF or AES/EBU. (I could be wrong on this, but I have never found out how to do it. I suppose this might only be true for my CD building/burning software which is SF CDArchitect. Maybe high-end DAWs will do it?). Another reason is that stand-alone burners rely upon your soundcard for input and hence burn in real-time. I know this is a whole other can of worms, but an engineer friend of mine was told by Sony that the "best" burn is the "fastest" burn. <> Therefore, if you're going to burn at 2x, 4x, or any other speed, you have to go SCSI.

One thing to keep in mind is that both record 0s & 1s (digital info.). So, sonically, there "should" be no differnce.

Anyone else that knows better on any of this....I'll stand corrected.

lorenzo gerace Wed, 01/30/2002 - 13:49

Originally posted by Brad Blackwood:

A Plextor burner with proper media will burn a disc with lower BLER and better pit geometry than any standalone burner

I took a look at you gear selection on Ardent's web site: what do you use the Alesis Masterlink for? I guess your primary master burning device is a SADiE /PC burner combo? Am I right?
I was thinking about (as pointed out above) transferring the finalized files inside the stand alone burner using S/Pdif, and build the final master (pauses, PQ list etc..) inside it; no need to transfer subcode along with the files.
There's another issue that comes to my mind: I found out (reading the spec sheet of the CDR-W33 and 66) that they only burn in the TOC (track at once) mode, while I usually burn my masters in disc at once mode; do I have to consider this another minus, or is disc at once only needed for PMCD?

Thank you for your feedback

anonymous Sat, 02/02/2002 - 03:59

Has anyone heres tryed Yamahas 3200 series of cd-burners? In two reviews I saw with it they where really praising the soundquality compared to others. (including plextor) They have supposidly incorporated some technology that fits less data, but leaves more space between the bumps! (1's and 0's) Sorry I don't really remember all the technological terms, but one of the reviews was at tomshardware.com

GZsound Sat, 02/02/2002 - 09:51

I use my Yamaha SCSI II CD burner for my CD's and they all seem to work well on all systems. I wish I had a program that I could use to check for pit errors, BLERS, etc..

As to burning software, Nero sucks major big time. I bought the current version because it advertises the fact it will burn simultaneous CD's on two burners at once. BS. It locked my computer multiple times, rewrote all my drive letters and wouldn't even allow me to make multiple copies of the same CD. I contacted support four times and then talked to them on the phone twice..absolutely no help. I removed it and went back to Adaptec Creator.

For budget mastering software, the field seems to have come down to Izotope, PSP and T Racks for those on a budget and the Wave bundle for higher budgets, with several others for those with unlimited money.

Patrick Sat, 02/02/2002 - 17:56

Originally posted by gerax:
Hi errol

I downloaded the demo version of Wavelab 3.0 from the web site, but I got into some trouble with the burning as it doesn't recognize my burner (though it's supported in the burners list); I'll take some time with it and find out. There's also a 3.04 patch that should do it, i'm going to try. Thank you so far for your infos. :)

Hi. I think perhaps it's a bit unrealistic to expect (a) that you can burn cd's with the demo, without actually buying the software, and (b) that you can update the demo with a patch. :)

lorenzo gerace Sun, 02/03/2002 - 01:56

[QUOTE]Originally posted by patrick:
Hi. I think perhaps it's a bit unrealistic to expect (a) that you can burn cd's with the demo, without actually buying the software, and (b) that you can update the demo with a patch[/QUOTE

I think that since I'm trying to evaluate the software from its CD burning ability point of view, it's a bit unrealistic that the software is not allowed to do it: I think a limited time, full featured version would be better, since a limited features one is worthless to me, or anyway the forbidden features could be other, not key ones like CD burning: if I have to download a demo to see if the start stop feature with the space bar works.....well to me its just a useless demo. The patch was just a try to find out if I was missing something.

knightfly Thu, 02/07/2002 - 10:54

Hey, On-Track (Jeff) On the "bit accuracy" thing, I read on Bob Katz' website (haven't tried it yet, nothing I own is plugged in, (MAJOR redo of space, equipment, reason for existence) Bob claimed if you record a (mono) track into your DAW, copy it to track 2 (no time-slipping allowed) reverse the phase(polarity) then play it back, and if you hear anything, you lose - then combine the two tracks, time-stretch til you could count individual samples, and if you SEE anything you lose - I probably butchered his explanation pretty bad, check out his site for the original - don't remember which article it was, but here's the site (If you haven't already been there, bring a lunch)

http://www.digido.com/

Matt, I've heard that the Tao Yuden CD-r's were one of the better ones - Any (current)hard data on BLER vs. CD-r brand o Plex writers - burn speeds, etc.? Saw some old results, which claimed 2x kicked butt, but(pun noted, tough) that was when 4x was the "screamer", now we're at 5 times that. Sure would be nice if there were BLER test software for, say, $200 ? Not too many of us who couldn't think of a couple of other pieces of gear we would rather have for the cost of a BLER tester - TIA, Steve

FifthCircle Fri, 02/08/2002 - 13:45

Originally posted by errol lem:
try this site http://www.samplitude.de or .com
There you can download a full working demo.

Some people find it better then wavelab.

I don't know but maybe its something to check out.

good luck

errol

Not much has been mentioned here regarding Samplitude or Sequoia. I've found that they are first rate programs that are quite useful with mastering. (Esp. Sequoia) Making redbook CDs is incredibly easy as is the editing model. Sequoia's model is similar to Sonic Solutions, however there are a few things that have been done with it to make it [in my opinion] easier to deal with than Sonic.

It also comes with some mastering effects that are first rate. (They may not be Weiss, but they are still quite good) The EQ and multi-band compressers are both linear-phase, as is the FFT filter. The bit resolution on some of the efects from what I've been told approaches 80 (!) bits... The download of Samplitude is available, but do not try to install the patches as they will void-out your demo period. (the patches have fixed a few important bugs that you may discover in the demo version).

Anyways, my $0.02... YMMV.

--Ben

lorenzo gerace Sat, 02/09/2002 - 02:05

Hi

I just downloaded and installed the new Sonic Foundry Vegas Video 3.0 which has the majority of CD Architect features onboard ( including PQ list and ISRC coding, I was almost moved to see that layout again), and so far it looks pretty identical; I tried to burn a few CD projects, and they went without a hitch, the only thing I'm still wondering (and I'm going to question Sonic Foundry about this) is : being Vegas Video 3.0 a video optimized software, how much can I trust its CD burning capabilities? Any Insights?

Cheers :)

atlasproaudio Sat, 02/09/2002 - 18:28

SEKD/Magix Samplitude 24/96 with Waves PPII/C4/Sonic Timeworks Mastering limiter. If the mix is sweet on the way in, this is all you need IMO. I used to take my mixes to a $100/hr Sonic Solutions room about 5+ years ago. My mastering blows theirs away sonically by miles. Garbage in-Garbage out...the plugs/software I listed will only help to embellish an already good thing. YMMV.

anonymous Sat, 02/09/2002 - 20:01

Nathan E.-

I too have the Timeworks Mastering Compressor and have found it to work well on some material. However, I haven't been able to figure out how to keep it from giving me flat peaks when the limiter kicks in. To what value do you usually set the Release? and do you usually use the Hard or Soft setting?

Because of this, I have been less than completely satisfied w/the results I was getting from the plug, so that lead me to search for an alternative.

This search turned up the PSP Vintage Warmer. Go out to http://www.PSPaudioware.com and download the demo. Try it out for a little while - its far more complex and flexible than the Timeworks plug and I think it sounds far superior. It handles the peaks very well and is quite transparent. It has replaced my Timeworks plug as the standard "maximizer" of my mastering chain.

BTW - I have also been able to crank out some masters that easily blow away those done by a dedicated Mastering Suite in California that we have used on a few projects. There might be some nitty-gritty technical issues that one could dig up, but sound-for-sound, mine hold up better. (Just my little 'ol humble opinion.) :o

atlasproaudio Sun, 02/10/2002 - 23:37

I'll try the plug you mentioned. I wonder why you aren't getting good results with the ST? Any limiter like that including the L2 is going to squash the hell out of the music. But, I find the ST to be quite transparent sonically, and of course there is heavy limiting going on. I do mostly rock, and I tend want it loud as possible without sounding funky. I usually run 2-3 limiters in series on the fast setting, almost as fast as it will go. Each limiter does just a little bit of the work so it eliminates the artifacts as much as possible. I have been really happy with it, and the CDs hold up extremely well sonically.

FifthCircle Tue, 03/05/2002 - 09:12

When using digital limiters, you will often see "flat peaks" when you look at the waveform. The issue is how much are you limiting to cause those peaks?

I like using limiters such as the Waves L2 as the last piece in a mastering chain, but I'm careful not to overuse it (no more than a couple dB of limiting). When I look at the waveform that results, I'll see flat peaks occasionally, but it is usually from drum hits on the snare or kick.

To give a mix a bit more "punch," I'll bring a multi-band compressor in and selectively compress different frequencies to create the sound that the client wants. My setting often have low thresholds, but low compression ratios as well... The limiter is used to add that last little bit to the upper dynamic content.

--Ben

Gold Wed, 03/27/2002 - 13:04

Matt, I've heard that the Tao Yuden CD-r's were one of the better ones - Any (current)hard data on BLER vs. CD-r brand o Plex writers - burn speeds, etc.? Saw some old results, which claimed 2x kicked butt, but(pun noted, tough) that was when 4x was the "screamer", now we're at 5 times that. Sure would be nice if there were BLER test software for, say, $200 ? Not too many of us who couldn't think of a couple of other pieces of gear we would rather have for the cost of a BLER tester - TIA, Steve

The Plextor/Taiyo Yuden combination is tried and true. Have no fear when using this.

There is no software to tell you BLER rate and do pit geometry inspection. They are hardware devices and rather pricey. All replication plants have these things and will run a test for you. I have a few masters a month tested at random just to keep tabs on whats going on. Otherwise I put my faith in the SADiE/Plextor/ Taiyo Yuden combination to turn out good discs. I always get a low error rate report back anyway.

anonymous Fri, 04/12/2002 - 12:16

I wuz lookin' for the response from Mark regarding his preference for Ozone. That question was asked somewhere back on page two of this message chain.

I'll put my reasons here. I like the interface for Ozone a lot!!! I am not impressed by manufacturers that are still trying to make us think the software on our PCs is "just like" the hardware.

I bought Ozone and use it to touch up my final mixes out of PT. I run it from within SF 5.0. I hated Ozone's demo. Very frustrating to have the audio cutting out every twenty seconds. :mad: But after buying the full version I can say it seems to me that it does a great job and for no more than it costs it's a great place to start learning about mastering.

I am a beginner myself and I'll leave it up to you guys that know a lot more about this subject to judge the quality of the audio manipulations. But for someone like me that's not into spending BIG BUCKS for Waves :eek: , this works just fine!

anonymous Sat, 08/10/2002 - 19:06

A few comments:

PMCD is a standard developed by Sony/Philips and not necessary for plants to cut glass masters. PQ info is written into the lead-in of the disk. Very few burners can do this.

Disk at once is necessary for the reasons mentioned earlier but that alone does not mean it conforms to the redbook spec. There are over a hundred rules for a disk or DDP image to follow in order to be called redbook.

DDP images are now becoming the standard source for plants replacing the 1630 workhorse which when clocked properly is the superior format. PMCD is a distant 3rd. More DAWs are fianlly supporting delivering to DDP. Think about it. Masters are now disk images which can be stored on servers and delivered electronically.

anonymous Thu, 08/15/2002 - 09:35

I just wanted to add that while looking over a review on http://www.cdrinfo.com about the new Yamaha CRW-F1 (there will be additional letters added to the end of the model number depending on future releases of firewire, USB 2.0 or combo versions)I saw that Fujifilm and Mitsubishi Chemicals CDRs actually scored lower than Taiyoyuden CDRs in C1 and C2 errors. Mitsubishi was the best.

The weird thing was that with this burner the lowest amount of errors possible was achieved by burning the media at 4X instead of 1X. Also, low speed media was recommended to reduce jitter.

Question: I did research on the net about this but didn't get a clear cut answer. Are block error rates actually C1 and C2 errors over a span of time?

anonymous Wed, 09/11/2002 - 18:35

Fella's .., you can Master using Cakewalk or any other music software as long as you have adequate plugins..,I personally masterd on wavlab. i preffered it because i can do so many things without applying .. i used t-racks before but didnt like the fact that i could fine tune certain aspects of my music. T-racks is only good for people that end up wit great mixes..my mixes are sometimes off so i prefer wavelab with the waves 3.5 plugins

anonymous Sun, 09/29/2002 - 01:33

The weird thing was that with this burner the lowest amount of errors possible was achieved by burning the media at 4X instead of 1X. Also, low speed media was recommended to reduce jitter

I may be wrong but from what I understand the faster speed stabilises the disc better than 1 x speed Yet is still slow enough to burn the ons/offs on the disc.

AmI wrong or is I right.

Others?

Rader Ranch Mon, 09/30/2002 - 15:19

a specific question regarding ID creation...i've been using MLCD for years, but talk about a product with no future and support (let alone features compared to more modern software) ....however, the one thing it can do easily is take a single soundfile and be told that this soundfile is actually x # of songs, and place ID's easily. i don't master for a living, but the vast majority of projects i do have to master have sound design between, under, and around songs, and far and away the most easy anf flexible way to do this is to build the whole thing (for me in PT) and essentially do all the 'mastering' there...then creating a single stereo master of the whole CD to pop into MLCD, set ID's, and burn.

i'm sure i over-explained this, but my question is - which of the apps you guys have (or haven't) mentioned can do this easily? Jam can't (the only other one i've spent any time on)..and it's certainly not worth it to spend major $$$ when all i use it for is ID creation and burning....

TIA...

anonymous Fri, 07/07/2006 - 18:40

Team,

Could I request help with the original question?
I am confused by many of the replies because it seemed like they are geared towards mastering plugs...and not CD duplication software used to burn CD's in the CDA format/red book standard..

I have the MD3 (plug version of the TC Electronic System 6000). I am not even slightly interested in mastering plugs. I am only interested in how to best burn the a CD to the redbook standard.
I also have the Plextor PX-716A which comes with Plextor Professional.

IMHO I master CD's in a wav format excellently. (humble)
But I need help in putting out a CD in a CDA format/red book standard.
I would really appreciate if we can focus on how to best burn a CD to redbook standard.

Considering I have Plextor Professional, is there a better software to actually burn a CD to CDA format/red book standard.

Thank you much for your assistance.

Peace!

Greg Alcorn
Alcorn Studios

Cucco Mon, 07/10/2006 - 14:31

Hey Greg -

As you would have guessed - a lot has been updated and changed since this post was originally written.

As for software with CD mastering capabilities, my money is on Sequoia. However, if you want a slightly more affordable version but still 90% of the functionality, go with Samplitude mastering version. It's well under the $1k mark and does a great job.

It will do everything AND it also makes great Red Book CD-Rs.

I also have the Plextor 716 and the two work great together.

J.

JoeH Mon, 07/10/2006 - 18:54

I've heard great things about CD Architect (from a friend who's a rabid fan), and he was almost inconsolable when Sonic Foundry discontinued it for a while, a few years back. He was overjoyed when they brought it back (right around the time that Sony bough Sonic Foundry). He's a prosumer, (not a pro mastering engineer) and yet I've heard outstanding results from his effots with it.

My money/career has always been on Sequoia, and Samplitude/Red Roaster before that (all Magix products with similar features, Sequoia being the best.) For true Red Book CD mastering, I haven't seen a better product for the PC platform. In most cases, I don't need external plugs for what I need (aside from reNOVAtor and a few other odds'n'ends.) Sequoia/Samplitude still has some of the best noise reduction tools I've come across for restoration and forensic audio work, ditto for some built in plugs and DSP.

I believe they have a downloadable demo that you can try. Not sure how much of it works (probably 2 min maximal samples and no "Save") but it should give you a good idea of how it handles.

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