Hi There,

I usually record a very loud bass player (actually he's a sort of Chris Squier on speed under the evil influence of the One Ring).

He plays on a Rickenbaker 4003.

I have found, from (little) experience, that EQ and compression will rid you of the clicks and pops.

What works for me and Mr. Insane Bass Player is routing his bass through a V-AMP, setting that to minimal EQ settings and then using on-board plugins to rectify the clicks and pops.

What bass are you playing on? if it's not something as naturally crunchy and boomy as a Rickenbaker, you might not even have to go that far.

Of course, if you have the proper amp, decent microphones, knowledge on mic placement and a great sounding room, then this would be the best way to go. Otherwise, try using short attack/decay times, maybe 4:1 ratios, and you should be fine.

best,

Marcus

Originally posted by Gleeson:
I read somewhere that recording directly into the mixer is better and more useful than micing instruments. So, with that in mind, I tried a direct recording of a bass line onto my DAW which is Sonar 2.2 and I wasn't very impressed with the amount of detail it picked up. For instance, all the little clicks and pops from the strings hitting the frets and pickups. Is there anyway to rectify the situation without having to switch to amp-mic recording? Other than using a pick instead of my fingers.

This sounds more like a problem with bass set up or playing technique rather than a problem with recording methodology. Learn to play without getting pops and clicks. Adjust the bass set up so the strings are high enough that they don't buzz on the frets and hit the pickups. They really shouldn't do that in the first place. If you are playing a detuned instrument you need to use larger gauge strings to insure proper string tension. Get the instrument set up correctly before you worry if you are going to mic a cab or go direct.

BTW, I like to do both if I can. The DI gives extended low end response and the speaker provides edge and a slight distortion that helps it cut through a mix and define well. Be sure to check that both the DI and mic are in phase.

I read somewhere that recording directly into the mixer is better and more useful than micing instruments.

Don't believe everything you read....

Just because you have a way to record into your DAW directly, doesn't mean that the interface or DI is going to provide you with good or even acceptable results. Dozens of specific DI boxes as well as gear with a DI in the marketplace each have a specific tone. On top of that, if you have a cheap and/or crappy bass, no amount of processing it is gonna make it sound better than having a great sounding instrument to start with.

AudioGaff,
Do you have a favorite bass DI? Or does it depend on the source and matierial? Which DIs do you like best? K.

Direct recording better....?
Thats a very bold statement. Well its not true. Its just another option you have, either isn't considered better than the other, there two different things. Personally I like a blend of the two, (givin I have a great D.I to work with, just like I wouldn't expect getting a good tone micing an amp without the right mics, pre's, and basiclly signal path strait off the tone coming out of the amp). The one thing I don't recomend (which many poeple here will disagree) is recording direct into an amp simulator, like a bass pod. I loke those boxes as an effect but not as a "real amp sound", for that I'll record an amp and blend it with the D.I signal. On the topic of D.I bass recording, I like using the D.I on my M-610 and than into my Manley ELOP.

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
AudioGaff,
Do you have a favorite bass DI? Or does it depend on the source and matierial? Which DIs do you like best? K.

Ya, it depends on the source bass and if I am going to use an amp as well. For just the DI path, I mostly stick to and rely on three options. First and just about always is the Eclair Engineering Evil Twin Tube DI. Good, clean, full sounding with solid bass down to 8Hz. My second option is the DI in the API 512C preamp. Big, thick and phat. And third is reserved for the very clean and natural sound of the bass, which is also is often a bass with active pickups, is the Countryman Type-85. I also split my bass signal after the DI and then each one goes into a comp. Which comp how it gets used varies greatly and may even be used with no compression and/or limiting but for specific tone only. Comps of choice are: API 525, dbx 160SL, UA 1176 & LA2A, Manley Mono Vari-Mu & El-Op, Tube-Tech CL2A, Groove Tubes CL1s, Summit Audio TLA-100A, Meek VC1Qcs. Any of those comps and mabe even others are also be used durring mixdown for additional level management and/or tone as well.

Other DI's and combos that get occasional use for bass are the Neve 1272, Vintech X81, Agular Tube DI, Focusrite Red via Countryman DI, Neotek Mic MAX via Countryman DI, Manley VoiceBox.

I am liking my Sansamp Bass Driver when going direct. I know it is not in the same category as the Evil Twin, but I do like the sound I get, and when you combine it with different-sounding mic pres, you can get some great sounding tracks.

I am not a bass player, but back when I was a recording musician (4+ years ago), the last 2 studios we used had the Sansamp, and I always loved the sound we got, so when I started doing this myself, it was one of my first purchases!

Originally posted by Gleeson:
I read somewhere that recording directly into the mixer is better and more useful than micing instruments. So, with that in mind, I tried a direct recording of a bass line onto my DAW which is Sonar 2.2 and I wasn't very impressed with the amount of detail it picked up. For instance, all the little clicks and pops from the strings hitting the frets and pickups. Is there anyway to rectify the situation without having to switch to amp-mic recording? Other than using a pick instead of my fingers.

Gleeson,

I personally find that clicks and pops have more to do with a persons technique, (as long as the bass is setup properly) you need a muting and better left-hand, technique.

The "clicking" is is probably also related to left hand technique - if you are not accurately fretting or pressing down too hard - so you need to fret just behind the fret lines not in the middle, for example.

I would also suggest looking into flat wound strings, you will not notice as much fret noise with flats wounds.

Just so you know, we have a Bass and Guitar forum here at RO, feel free to drop in and ask (us over there) any questions about bass you might have in the furture, we are always happy to help!

Treena

The only sure way to get a good track out of bass is to experiment. We can give you all kinds of advice, but the bass seems to be the instrument that a) has the greatest variations for noise induced by the musician- the clicks and pops and other performance nuances vary so widely you can't really second-guess them... and b) can suffer the greatest damage if you don't deal with the noisyness very well. Every time I get a new bass player thru, I set up as many mics around their amp, and get direct signals from as many different outputs as I can, and just record a scratch track for a few bars to see what we get.

Another thing to remember, is that depending on the sound you're trying to get, the clicking and popping might actually help you out more than it hurts. If you get rid of all of the player's little noises and playing mannerisms, you might as well just MIDI the track and be done with it. There's a bunch of old recordings where the bass sounds just dirty enough to really jam. I'm not saying you should let it all hang out here; if it's distracting, try to get it under control. If it doesn't really hurt anything, let it slide.

For my own playing (I play bass in the band I'm in, so I get plenty of time to experiment) my best combination at this point is a direct line out of my effects board (BOSS GT-5b) for low end stuff, and either an SM57 or Beta52 on my cabinet, pointing right at the outside edge of the voice coil. I've recently picked up a StudioProjects B1 and haven't tried it out yet... We'll see where it gets us. The advantage I have with my setup is that the cabinet (Peavey 8x10) seems to filter out the high popping and clicking all on it's own, so mics put in front of it don't really need much work. I'll usually put a low-pass at 200 or 300 Hz for the pedals, and mix that into the mic'd sound to beef up the bottom when it needs it.

This may not work at all for you guys. But you can try it.

Hey mods! Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to sticky a thread for micing of various instruments, kinda making a FAQ at the top of the forum for people who come in asking "how do I mic a..."

Of course, you could probably fill a whole new division or the forum with that kind of thing.

Just thinking out loud.

Kase
http://

I usually always do both. Reddi Di into a Little Labs IBP and I'll mic the amp usually with a D12E and use the IBP to get the phase locked dead on. I'll record both to seperate tracks so I've got the best of both worlds.

Both a good DI(a must) and a re20 or 421 or a d112 or even 57 if thats all you got
you can always reamp with the DI

Yeah...what he said.

If you want good bass tone, use good gear, obviously. But the trick most bass players don't get is that in the studio you want as much gain as possible so you can touch it soft as possible. Watch the meters while you play and try and smooth it out that way. You are better off not compressing at all.

"Compression is for bad bass players."
-Mike Elizando

Also, if you are using more than one source, as always...phase phase phase.

BH

All factors mentioned are good ones....there is no substitute in the world for a bass player with an EVEN handed attack.Heavy is fine as well as light as a feather.If they are even.Its been my experience that the uneven attack is the one that requires all sorts of processing.And processing creates a 'difference' in sound and sound quality.Not necessarily good.There are many good basses.The Evil Twin DI is a killer box.The Countryman 85 is my favorite because it adds nothing.The sound of the bass in the proper hands is what I personally like.This is when having a high quality bass is the answer.I personally like 60's era P-basses.The pickups are generally the best as far as Fender is concerned.

the D.I. on the Chandler TG2 sounds great on P-Bass... huge but articulate.

I use both, each on their own tracks. For micing, the usual suspects(re20, 421, sm7...usually sm7) and I've really been liking the Avalon U5. Used it on a 72 jazz and it rocked.

The current band's bass player i'm working with plays a Modulus 5 string through a David Eden Traveller, which has it's own "Recording Output" ie DI....only problem I can find is it's a really low level output-i have to go through a preamp to kick it up at least 25dB and that's with the bass amp loud! Anyone else have any experience with the Eden's? It's a newer one, and we've defeated the comp/limiter but still can't get the same levels as a DI before the head.

Does that Eden have a pre and post gain? I have a '94 Trace elliot 1225VT that has an XLR out from the tube pre, I just set level from the pre gain pot. It's killer.

I used to own an Eden Traveler wt-300 and from the begining, I've regarded the DI as an afterthought. Electronically ballanced cornercutting BS. The Avalon is good, an API 312 with a DI is better. ET66 always delvivers. Also, you have to hear how eratic the bass is in order to smooth it out with your playing. Recording with compressors makes me think I have more play in the bass. ('72 Jazz)

BH

Personally I will go direct and mic the amp. concentrating on the performance and spirit of the performance. If we get a good mic'd sound cool, if not, we re-amp. that way the bass players, chops won't get stale. With reamping, the performance is done and we can focus in with different mics, position-of-mic, even different amps.

Im not a good bass player but I have to agree with Babyhead here.Any noises seem louder with compression.When you guys use compression on bass what ratios do you use?

There are two serious bass players in our group(we switch to other instruments a lot and have our own projects as well) Neither of us use compression at all at tracking and only a small amount of sweetening type of compression...ie Compellor/Expressor...at mixing.Being in touch with your attack can allow this.
Another DI source I like a lot is the DI on the True Systems P2 Analog mic pre.

"Being in touch with your attacks"...I like that. I like slower attacks long releases 3:1 taking 2-4 db off the top. I like for transients pass through, although it depends on the player and the bass. I also like LA-2A style C/L, but that's like saying I like coffee. If you have lots of tracks, you can mult your signal to a radical setting on a (hopefully good) compressor as well as recording the straight signal. You can do this with effects too, but there are three things to watch for. Phase, phase, and phase. You can create walls of sound this way, but remember that there is only 100% of space to work with.

BH

One of these days I'm gonna sit down and go through these threads and pick out and catalog all these great one liner expressions for things. Theres a few on here that are just great resources for em and they deserve to be read by others over and over....
My now most recent fav is BH's "there is only 100% of space to work with".........classic!

Thanks DD.

Gotta get both the amp and the DI. If I was only able to get one, I would get the DI, cuz I could just broadcast the DI sound into my amp later if I was hurtin for it. Right now I am using a Countryman, but I am always looking for something else, as bass is MY instrament. That Evil Twin looks like the Ferrari of the DI world, I'd love to take a test drive.

OK...I am interested in some techniques that you all use to line up mic'ed and DI'ed tracks.

Besides the Little Labs IBP...

Are you just "nudging" a track in a DAW? Delay? How do you go about determining if you have them lined up "just right"? Is it basically a "phase thing" where the volume will reach maximum when the tracks are perfectly lined up?

Getting a track phase coherant after the fact is very difficult. You may try a HPF on one of the tracks and LPF on the other and have them meet in the middle...and on that note, I use Digital Performer 3.1 and if I have 2 phase locked tracks and I apply different plugins, the phase gets messed up. All of the drums get the same 4 band EQ, etc. I think this maybe a universal problem they don't want to talk about, although Nuendo addresses this issue.

Sometimes I use nudging on on late tracks (room mic, bass amp...) to tighten it up, but phase is a function of amplitude and frequency, not so much time. The relationship of the amplitudes changes with nudging, but it can open a can of worms.

-BH

The trick is knowing what %100 actually is...

Sort of on topic.......
I heard that THE bass sound these days for heavier rock is a 3 way split between DI, the bass amp, and an overdriven guitar amp (Marshall stack or what have you).

Anybody else here do this? I have had some interesting results playing around with amp plugins on the DI track after I make a copy of it (or sometimes I use the plugin as a send effect). As far as using a real guitar amp, I've only tried it out once with a Fender Deville, it was, umm, very farty. Not a bad thing, just not really useable to me, I was looking for grind, not "Bwoolw".

Arn't thereplug-insthat model different amps? I know there's Mic Modeler, and it seems like I remember hearing about a plug-in that lets you select what kind of amp or cabnet the instrument is coming through, assuming you have a Direct Input recorded.

...or am I misremembering my lessons, again?

There are plenty of ampsim plugins to try. The ones I've tried have never really satisfied me in recreating an amped sound. They get closer to be sure and tweaked right can sound pretty good but a real amp and mic just sound so much better.

When I record these days I record direct and use and old Cakewalk amp sim plugin in conjunction with Sonic Foundry's Acoustic Mirror to recreate an amped feel. It works pretty well and any clients I've done this for have been happy. But recently I sent some bass tracks I'd recorded direct to a friend and he sent them through an amp. Wow. The sound was so much better than my amp sim setup. More clarity and feel. Some air in there. And yes warmth that my amp sim setup can't emulate.

Why did I ever sell that SWR bass head a few years back? :confused:

Oh, well. I'm still getting good results but a good bass amp is definitely on the wish list.

Dave

So here's a neat little trick I'm going to try out. Rather than renting a Marshall or Mesa/Boogie like I was going to for the upcoming project, here's my setup.
Guitar goes direct into the DAW (Aardvark Q10, Logic Platinum 5.5.1 - for those of you who care) software monitoring is on, Warp VST Amp simulator on the insert with that channel run to a separate out, into power amp/ speaker cab. Get it? I have a HUGE guitar sound coming at me while I play, with only 4 ms of monitoring delay, so I can put the feel into it instead of trying to guess what the track'll sound like with an overdriven sound etc....
Now here comes the fun part - once I nail the performance, I mic up the amp, play the soloed guitar track w/ amp sim running and record the two (or however many) tracks of mic output - this time there'll be zero latency, and I'll be able to try out as many mic setups, guitar cabinets, amp settings, rooms as I want on the same performance and yet I am still getting a miked guitar sound.
Ha!