IMO you should be about 3m from the front row to get a blend rather than individual voices. You will probably get plenty of room with only that pair

Will the choir stand on the chancel steps or be on risers?

Rich

thanks for the reply

I'll post an update when I had the chance to get a preview

Cheers

Hi all

I've just visited the church with the conductor and co.

There'll be 3 priests around the altar; speaking / singing towards the altar.
There'll be 2 'diaken' (let's call 'm soloists) each singing towards a relic right in front of them.
And a choir of about 55 people scattered on and before the stairs (towards the right side )

See schedule:

(watch the orientation of the different groups)

The church is extremely reverbant.

My first instinct tells me to do it as follows:

A: xy pair of cardioid oktava mk012
B & C: Rode NT1A
E: ortf cardiod oktava mk012 about 3 metres high

I'm very interested what your 'instinct' would be about this

My current gear:
1 stereopair mk012 only cardiod
1 stereopair mk012 all capsules (card & omni & 8)
2 NT1A
1 AT3035
3 sm57
1 beta52A

Again, any input is much appreciated

Cheers

Will there be any playing on the organ?

/ptr

thanks for the reply ptr

no organ

it's a byzantium lythurgian something

cheers

I'm reusing your image.

Because I'd want to give the listener a good feel for how the singers where placed in the church I'd do a placement profile like I have set my red ABC.

Begining with C, there I'd place My 012 Omnis as a speced AB pair, fairly high (3+ meters).

At B I'd set the Röde Nt1a's as a pseudo ORTF pair on a spacer, not that high at all, perhaps waist high.

And at A I'd place the the second 012 pair as ORTF, fairly low.

Question : Will the middle preist sing with his back against the congregation?

If so, I'd probobly place my A behind the altar.

I'd rely heavily om the Omni's using the ORTF pairs as supports. On own tracks for a later mix or if You mix to stereo on the spot, very sparcely (Just to highten intellability).

The church beeing reverbant is to your advantage as Bysantian music should not be recorded in a dry enviroment! (I've heard sveral Greek recordings of this kind of music and its always very spacious!)

I would avoid close miking as it will give a quite unnatural ambience mix when You listen in stereo (ie. the feeling that the voices are in diffrent rooms..)

Avoid using the SM57's and Betas as their sound will never match what your 012's and Rodes will give..

/ptr

Hi

Thank you for your detailed reply

Did you take in account the soloist B&C facing the Altar?

And yes, the priests all face the ALtar

About your position C

Wouldn't the recording be very right-side heavy?

I do understand how (too-)close micing would make it sound like different rooms

Thank you very much

Cheers

GentleG wrote: Did you take in account the soloist B&C facing the Altar?

Nope, missed that, then we'll have to reverse the whole thing...

GentleG wrote: And yes, the priests all face the ALtar

About your position C

Wouldn't the recording be very right-side heavy?

Perhaps a bit, but that is what the church layout says..

New Image :

I'm still with my original C position (With an alternate C position infront of the Choir)

Then I'd turn the mike sets placing the O12's at position A and the N1a at B, but You'll have to reverse the channels in the mix. I would not worry about any phase problems with reversing the channels, as You will have tonnes of phase issues du to the reverbation times in the church.

My condition on going easy on the A & B spots still stands!

/ptr

Hi

Again, thanks for the reply

I think I'd like to draw the center line from the Altar to the choir, so:

Including your alternate C (not regular C)
The positions are basicly as my instinct,
incorporating more distance (good point)

You also suggest to use the NT1A for the Altar, and mk012 on the rest, why's that? Because the others are singers and the priests are more talkers?

So everything's ortf?
I think I'd like to pan the priests / altar very close to center (11 and 1 o'clock)
The soloists a bit wider (10 and 2)
and the choir as wide as possible (9 and 3; keeping in mind the setup: maybe a bit less)

To me this would mean (I think) using xy on your new position B and maybe even A

And yes, left-right would be switched for A&B

Again,
Thank you very much for your detailed response

I'm still learning :)

Cheers

Regarding the skew of the sound to the right (if you run all three pairs up the center), how this would be as a listening experience would depend on the relative roles of the choir and soloists in the work. If the choir really carries a major role, I would be concerned that this would be very strange to listen to at home, since it would skew everything so much to the right and the listener would not have the knowledge of the performance layout.

I guess this is a philosophy issue to some extent... are you trying to make a documentary or a recording? If a recording, then I think some 'reinterpretation' of the space is legitimate and probably called for.

Michael

Thank you for your reply

Both the choir and I are both amateurs
I think we both strive for something that's currently beyond our reach :)

That said, and good question btw:
The choir will be about 75%,
Soloist about 35%
Priests about 15%
(there's some overlap here and there)

So I feel the choir should be big, wide (as far as the setup allows this) and primary
The soloists should be close second
It's nice to hear/understand the priests too ( ;) )

This RO keeps amazing me
If it isn't the answers I like
It's the questions they raise :)

Keep it up
And thanks again

Cheers

ps

gear update:
I now have all the capsules for the mk012s (4x omni, 4x card 4x hypercard)

I've been watching this thread with a LOT of interest. This is the kind of concert I LOVE to do. It challenges me and my equipment and keeps me thinking.

As for the main choir - I would definitely use omnis out in front. Not too far, or you'll get nothing but a wash of sound. (Too much reverb, not enough direct. It should be pretty obvious where the edge of the reverb field is.)

Because of the extreme off-balance of the choir, I would consider placing another spot over the section where there is a mass of folks on one side but not on the other. Then, I would try to creatively pan that so that it makes sense in the mix. Keep this spot nice and high though. High enough to simulate the first mic position, but not so high as to get all of the singers again.

As for those folks situated around the altar - I would personally use a blumlein pair or perhaps XY. If worse came to worse, I might use a single omni between them all.

As for the 2 backwards facing soloists (kneeling? or standing?), I would have to spot mic these folks. One mic each.

I know, I've gone over your mic count (and forsaken your patterns available), but I would definitely suggest you borrow/rent additional mics for this job.

Hopefully your Oktavas are well matched too, otherwise, you're in for a world of hurt. In general, I think a lot of emphasis (perhaps too much) is given to matched pairs. In the case of the Oktavas though, were 2 mics with contiguous serial numbers can sound completely different, I would definitely stress the importance of similar sounding mics.

Please let us know how this turns out!

J.

Thanks for the reply

Something I have forgotten to mention all this time:

The goal of the recording is to create a cd to sell to the friends and families of the choir (about 200 is their guestimate). They want something to be proud of and earn some money on at the same time.
Only the conductor is slightly interested in an accurate documentary.

I therefore feel some reinterpretation of space is legitimate.

So combining all the points being made and taking my equipment in account:
2 sets of matched pairs mk012 with all capsules, 2x NT1A, 1x AT 3035 and 8-track digital recording (firepod + notebook))

I come to this temporary conclusion

priests: xy cardioid NT1A (about 2m away)
soloists: supercardiod mk012 (about 1.5m away (is max possible)
choir: ortf omni mk012 (about 1.5m away, 3m high, using best matched pair)

Renting isn't an option: no money
The small fee I get will be spend on transportation, tape, extra high micstand, extra long cables, coffee, nicotine.

Again thanks for all your replies

And feel free to comment on my temporary conclusion :)

Cheers

Use your ears

I have a paint roller extention pole that I take with me for location recordings. Before I place my mics I walk around the room while the choir is singing and listen for a sweet spot. Your proposal sounds reasonable, but consider that a starting point.

Get yourself some good headphones with good isolation. I use FutureSonics in-ear monitors and a pair of 30dB ear protection muffs. When I have that stuff on I don't hear SQUAT unless it comes through the wire.

On the end of my paint pole I have a clamp for a paint brush handle. I take a small mic boom, wrap a couple turns of gaff tape around it and stick it in the clamp. Then I put my mic pair on the boom.

I don my in-ears and muffs and search for the sweet spot based on what I hear. With ORTF, pay close attention to the stereo image. It's very easy to end up with a hole in the middle. Adjust the mic angle so you have a consistant soundfield from left to right without losing the center.

Also, I always do this with my eyes closed. My ears work better when my eyes are shut off. I don't think my PSU has enough juice to keep both devices working at full power.

Good cans and some careful hunting will yield better results than any amount of discussion here - granted it's good to have a plan when you walk in, and it looks like you've got that.

All this assumes, of course, that the choir will be rehearsing in place before the service.

I am not sure I could really add anything to what mics and where to place them. Better people than me has contributed there. I would however add a routine that has helped me quite a bit.

Before going on my first important on-site recording I did a dry run at home. I started by packing everything up in the boxes and moved all the boxes to the kitchen. Then I carried them into the living room setting everything up as if it was on location. Snakes and cables and such got rolled out to the expected lenght and connected. Stands put up and mic holders and mics added. Then recording started, running for the two hours I expected.

Finally everything was packed down into the boxes, each having a list of included items.

This dry-run highlighted a lot of missing stuff in my equipment list and also allowed me to become much faster at setting up things.

Nowadays I must admit beeing lazy, only running the dry-run in my head. But I am continuosly looking for the small things that will help on location. Things like zipper pouches and tupperware boxes and various other small things helping out. These really help to save the day, in addition to beeing great fun finding.

In a way, you get only one shot at the big day. Missing it because you forget a cable is no favourite.

Gunnar

Yep

I'm allowed to set up between 09:00 and 10:00
Rehearsal is planned (.. :roll: ..) from 10:00 till 10:15 .....
Doors open.
Show starts at 10:30

Rehearsel at home: I've done that already some times for previous gigs. I usually carry way too much with me (ectra stand, cables, small bits and pieces, volt/Ohm-meter!!! etc.) :D

My previous experience is recording:
choir in rehearsel space
jazz band
rock
So this one is a bit different

My mild panic has finally ebbed away (thanks all)
I'm just feeling a bit anxious now
That's just healthy I think
Can't wait for the day!

Cheers

ps
Any comments still welcome

I always carry too much stuff - but I figure better to have extra rather than being short. It is also commonplace for there to be surprises ...

"I forgot to mention the solo violinist on this piece. Is that going to be a problem?

FWIW, I'd want 2 hours minimum to haul in and setup - but then I'm not known for being speedy. :-?

Here's what my location kit looked like about a year ago.

I've added a few bits since then - like some stands and an additional rack bag. I don't take everything for every gig, but I rarely travel light.

[edit]
Zoinks! - 15 minutes of rehearsal and 15 minutes to doors open? That's not much "play" time! You'll have to have your ORTF angles set before the choir gets there - if you can have a helper to walk around in front of the mics to check the spacing, that will save some time.

I'd definitely plan for more than 60 minutes to setup!

wow, THAT's light travel :-?

I have:
1 extra large backpack (notebook, mics, cables, etc.)
1 2HE rackcase (firepod, mouse, digital camera, headphones
1 bag with micstands
1 25meter electra cable winding up thing (what's the word for that in English)

I theory I can carry it all at once
(not taking spinal injuries into account :wink: )

Cheers

GentleG wrote: wow, THAT's light travel :-?

Yeah - for a choral gig a lot of that would stay home. That was after unloading the car for a 6-piece band concert where I did FOH and multitrack track recording.

The cable winding up thing would be called a REEL.

GentleG wrote: wow, THAT's light travel :-?

I have:
1 extra large backpack (notebook, mics, cables, etc.)
1 2HE rackcase (firepod, mouse, digital camera, headphones
1 bag with micstands
1 25meter electra cable winding up thing (what's the word for that in English)

I theory I can carry it all at once
(not taking spinal injuries into account :wink: )

Cheers

Yeah Dude - that's VERY light travel.

For a gig of this magnitude, (and I would consider this one to be a huge one), I would have probably twice as much stuff as Karl on this one. Here's what I'd be looking at:

1 Pelikan 1610 case (for my PC)
4 Aluminum Briefcases (1 for LCD, 2 for mics, 1 for misc cables/headphone amps, etc.)
2 Plastic Rack cases - (maybe 3 if I needed to remote mount my preamps.) 1 for pres and AD and 1 for my backup recorder.
1 Rolling suitcase for my cables and my UPSs.
Several mic stands (AEA 15Bx2 or 4, QuikLok A85 - 2 to 4 and tons of smaller booms)
1 BigAss Monster Cable 100' 8 channel snake
1 MediumAss ProCo snake
2 Smaller black aluminum cases (carrying mic clips and other various assundries such as pens/notepads/mousepad/breathmints/headphones/etc)
And 1 killer dolly/hand-truck.

On smaller gigs, I can often lessen that load a bit, but not by much.

I know many here complain that this is too much to carry. Frankly, I like having that many options at my disposal and am unwilling to give that convenience up. Besides, it ain't THAT bad - especially with part time helpers.

As for the 15 minute rehearsal - I would be in there a day early making mathematical calculations to get as close to perfect as possible, then go from there. Then, I would get the conductor/manager to contractually agree to NOT change 1 thing for fear of ruining the recording.

Then, I would stand by nervously waiting for Sh*t to happen, cuz it always does.

Oh, and in this case, I would bow down and say one heck of a prayer before everything got going. Even if you're not religious, he might listen more considering the venue... :D

J.

---that's VERY light travel---

I have been known to enter a room with everything strapped around me

someone asking if they can help carry something
so I give him the micstand bag
OUCH
he calls for help :D

---Even if you're not religious, he might listen more considering the venue... ---

Yep, even I have taken this into serious consideration (I'm not religious)

Cheers

Hi all,

The recording was yesterday
It was a good experience: enjoyable, confusing & educational

Of course nobody would stand where they told me they would stand
Priests like to move mic stands
Choirs don't like micstands
The audience however does like 'm:
as they can be quite handy as support to get up from a bench

Deep breath

Most funny thing:
The choir actually started rehearsing half an hour early!
Which basicly left me to do the full setup in 27 minutes...alone
After which I couldn't place the micstands anywhere else,
the only option left was to point it differently if needed

Biggest thing I've learned:
The choir hired me, not the church
Therefore the church doesn't care at all:
they just thought I was an intruder with my equipment around their sacred altar.

Reminder:
Venue does not equal Client

Oh, and priests wear sqeaky sneakers

Now the technical stuff:

now try and find all the differences with the previous drawings :D

blue arrows are mics
left:
NT1A XY, micstand moved away by priests...
captured mostly a very soft reverb and some squeaky sneakers
priests around the altar are barely audible,
luckily they weren't that important
middle:
mk012 with supercardioid
captures the priests and some relatively nice reverb of the choir
topright:
mk012 omni AB (about 60cm)
3metres high
captured the choir reasonably ok

mix (preamps during recording were roughly equal on all):
left: at full stereo -20dB
middel: 20% stereowidth -3dB
topright: 82% stereowidth 0db
every channel heavy lowcut at 20Hz

no compression or anything else
the overall level is this low because it gets 9 db louder in the last 15 minutes of the recording

Background 'noise' is -40dB : thanks to a packed church, not enough seating, people everywhere.

Any suggestions on the mix are very welcome

Especially considering the 'noise'
Expanding? at what level should the threshold be?

Cheers

Hi

Today the conductor came by
He seemed pleased with the recording,
he was more worried about some performance issues :D

We edited the stereomix down to cd-length (took about 3 hours...)

I'm gonna leave it for a day or two and then get back to do some minor last adjustments (eq & fades maybe)

Then it's of to them to duplicate for friends and families

CHeers

The bit you posted was way off center - but it sounded pretty decent. I'd LOVE to record in a space with that kind of natural reverb. You captured it very well.

Thank you

Yep, the newest mixdown (not online) is compensated for the off-center. I also compressed and expanded quite a bit.

Cheers