rfreez wrote: some of you may have have seen my posts regarding this on other forums... i have been looking for an optimal solution for quite some time and got some (i think) very useful input, but think theres a better solution out there..

Your post has been here for a while now, unanswered, so I thought I'd give it a go.

You are wanting to record Indian music trios using a minimalist and 'purist' approach, ideally with just two microphones. Given that information, I think the best person to answer your questions would be David Lewiston. He has had considerable experience recording music similar to that which you're recording, and he always uses two microphones. To the best of my knowledge, his rig consists of three different stereo miking options: an MS pair with cardioid M capsule, an XY pair of cardioids, and a pair of omnis. Considering the quality of his recordings, I would expect that the solution you seek lies with one of those rigs. David sometimes visits this forum, maybe he will chime in. Are you there, David?

In his absence, I'll throw in some suggestions and anecdotes from my own experiences (see further down). I am currently in Nepal, where I have spent considerable time recording numerous types of seasonal, ritual and regional music. In fact, I am currently resting my legs in the lakeside town of Pokhara after a recording trek to a hillside village so far off the tourist and backpacker trail that I was the second white person to ever visit the place (and hence a great source of curiosity, especially when trying to wash my pale, skinny and hairy body!). Made some great recordings of women singing accompanied by mahdal (two headed drum that is strapped above the knees and played with the hands while sitting), flute and handclapping...

rfreez wrote: i have recorded too many carnatic (south indian classical) music concerts close mic'd in noisy venues and am now quite sick of the sound... looking to start a little label with a 'purist' approach to do the same...i've found a big room with a great, natural reverb, now i need to buy the gear and begin testing. I have a very finite 3rd world budget and simply cannot test equipment here before buying...

Having a big room with a great natural reverb is a good start, especially if you intend on making purist recordings with no added reverb.

Going off on a tangent here, I'm curious about your definition of 'purist'... Do you mean 'purist' as in simply using two microphones and recording direct-to-stereo, or do you mean 'purist' as in Chesky Records or, more appropriately to the music you are recording, Water Lily Acoustics?

http://www.waterlilyacoustics.com/

With a 3rd world budget, I assume you are referring to simplicity, rather than having custom-made tube equipment and so on. But I thought I'd refer you to Water Lily Acoustics anyway - if you don't already know of them, their recordings may provide some good references for you. They record a lot of Indian music, and use only a Blumlein pair in a good sounding room...

rfreez wrote:
* if i were to use the m/s approach here, the vocal will be 3' or more away from the array... isn't this likely to make the voice sound very thin?

That depends on your definition of 'thin'. If you mean lacking low frequncy body and power, it is important to remember that all directional microphones (basically, anything that isn't an omni) suffer from low frequency issues related to distance.

Up close they suffer from proximity effect, which creates an exaggerated LF response. This effect is used in pop music to create a vocal sound that is bigger, fuller and more intimate than actually exists in real-life.

At a distance they suffer from a LF rolloff, which can make things sound thin, especially if you're expecting to get that up-close vocal sound of popular music.

At about 30cm away from a cardioid, the proximity effect and the LF rolloff tend to balance each other, and the LF response is flat. But that is rarely, if ever, the ideal position to capture the voice and the other instruments with a stereo microphone system. Usually the rig will need to be further from the voice than that...

When recording direct-to-stereo indoors, the foremost priority is to get the right balance and sense of ensemble between the musicians, along with a good direct/reverberant ratio. If, after achieving that, the vocals (and/or the other instruments, for that matter) sound thin, then your only option is to apply some corrective EQ, chosen to complement the mic's natural LF rolloff. Using EQ has always been a no-no for the purist, but with linear phase EQ I don't think there is any problem. I'm a very purist engineer at heart, but I am happy to use linear phase EQ because the benefits outweigh the degradations. I cannot say the same for standard EQ, however...

rfreez wrote:
*what would happen if i used an omni as the 'm' mic, in this situation?

An omni M capsule, when mixed with the S capsule at a 1:1 ratio, decodes to the equivalent of two cardioids back-to-back. It will have a 360 degree sound field and the only LF rolloff and proximity effect will be due to the S capsule. If the musicians are situated in a triangle as shown in your illustration and all facing each other, this could be a good choice. It will offer a lot of freedom of movement to achieve the right balance and ensemble, but it will also pick up a lot of room sound.

But, from the position of the stereo microphone rig shown in your illustration, I am assuming the musicians are all facing the front. In which case, an omni M capsule probably isn't a good choice.

For something like your illustrations, I'd be using an MS pair with cardioid M capsule, and moving the vocalist forward and the other instruments backwards. It looks like a simple set-up, really... I take your point about the musicians being old and set in their ways, but sometimes all you have to do is play them two comparitive recordings (one how they traditionally set-up, one how you'd prefer them to set-up) and they'll understand. Then, after a little bit of practice, they'll get used to it.

For this kind of direct-to-stereo recording, you are faced with many factors that you cannot control. The positioning of the musicians is one of the few factors that you *can* control, so don't worry too much if they're set in their ways. Start pushing them around a little. Whoever said "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" wasn't using a big enough stick.

rfreez wrote:
* as long as i don't put any musicians on axis with the 's' mic, it should hold up well when folded down to mono...no? or will the balances change severely?

This actually depends on which polar response you choose for the M capsule and where you place the musicians relative to it, because, when summed to mono, the M capsule is all you will hear...

rfreez wrote:
* if i were to go with the 3 mic approach... how will the vocal sound through the x/y pair (without the spot mic)...

Depends on how far it is from the XY pair. According to your illustrations, the vocal will sound quite a bit more distant than the string instrument shown to the right (saranghi?), because the string instrument is considerably closer. Nothing you can do will change that, by the way, without either moving the sound sources or using a spot microphone. This is a problem we face from time to time with direct-to-stereo recording. We have two sounds, one is considerably louder than the other, so 'common sense' tells us to simply move it further away. In doing so, we might get a better balance in terms of volume, but now we have the problem that the louder instrument is too far away. In other words, a good volume balance but a poor depth balance.

I was faced with a variation of this problem about four days ago while recording the women in the village mentioned at the start of this reply. The mahdal is quite a loud and dominating percussive instrument so I moved it behind the singers. Because the hut was small and not too reverberant (walls and floor made from pounded earth mixed with straw, I am guessing), it didn't sound too bad, and I thought I'd found a good solution. BUT, the problem was that the woman who played the mahdal was also leading the singing for the other women - and now she sounded too distant. If anything, she was supposed to be in front of the other voices, not behind them! In the end I settled on a three-part solution. Firstly, I arranged two of the singers so that they were sitting directly in front of the mahdal, with their backs absorbing some of its direct energy and blocking the direct paths from each end (where the skins are) to the microphone. Secondly, I sat the player on a small step so that her head was just above all the other singers, bringing her voice a bit more to the fore again. Thirdly, I experimented with the microphone height and position until it was in a modal null of the room, reducing the level of the mahdal's 'boom' even further but with no adverse affects on the voices. It worked well for the first hour or so. Then, because it was a village celebration rather than strictly a recording, we all got a bit intoxicated and things started to fall apart. Before I knew it, the mahdal player/lead singer was back on the floor in front of the other women, the mahdal was booming again and... well, what the heck, by this time I was dancing around the fire with the other women, having moved the Nagra and microphone rig back to make more room, and the recording didn't seem to matter any more. The sobering moment came when my guide/porter placed the AA cells from the camera in the coals to warm them up (they were going flat) and one exploded, showering hot coals across the floor and burning the side of my right foot quite badly.

(Hence, one of the reasons I am resting my legs here in Pokhara - I can hardly walk! Actually, I'm going through a very accident-prone phase at the moment - I twisted my left knee quite badly the second day in the village when I slipped going up a clay embankment to record some children in the village school. Then I burnt my right foot while dancing, and because of my twisted left knee I had to keep my weight on my right foot while trying to remove the hot coal which tended to just stick to the skin and burn away. The five hour descent down from the village to the 4WD a day or so later was hell! I had to keep my weight off my left knee, so my right foot was doing all the work - step down with the right foot, follow with the left, crabwalking the whole way. But I was trying to use one side of my right foot only, to avoid putting pressure on the burn. As a result, I developed a blister on the other side of my right foot, which continually took all of my downward momentum. Doh! So, I'm here in Pokhara keeping my feet up. But Punam, my beautiful Nepali wife-to-be, wants me to take her to the Hindu temple in the middle of Phewa Lake in about 30 minutes from now. How do we get there? Paddle boat...)

But I'd do it all again, of course.

rfreez wrote:
will it sound unstable in the stereo field? will x/y or some near coincident pair alone be enough for the trio, with the vocal anchored in the center, or willl i have to necessarily spot the vocal? (the stereo pair i guess will be directly in front of the vocal, about 5'-7' away.)

Is a stereo pair enough? Crikey! You're only recording three instruments... ;-) If you add a spot microphone you'll have three microphones. Maybe you could close mic each instrument and throw your purist intentions out the window!

But seriously, if you are able to move the musicians around a bit, you ought to be able to do a fine job with a single stereo pair. But this also assumes the vocalist is not playing an instrument.

As for stability in the stereo image and anchoring the voice in the centre: the closer the vocalist gets to the stereo pair, the more sensitive the image becomes to movements of the singer. Most singers in these types of music tend to be sitting cross-legged on the floor and, consequently, rock side-to-side and/or back-and-forth while singing. The closer you get with a stereo pair, the more movement you will get.

Another problem you might face is with singers who not only rock from side-to-side and back-and-forth, but who also tend to turn their head from side to side, rhythmically, while singing. This can be disastrous for any coincident technique, especially when up close and indoors, because the voice is continually going on- and off-axis and changing tone and reverberation accordingly. The solution for this problem is to use a pair of spaced microphones, probably omnis but cardioids would do. I have had this problem a few times while recording a Tibetan monk reciting mantras. Sitting cross-legged on the floor, looking down at the scriptures in his lap, he rocks from side to side and back to front, often turning his head left to right and back as he does it. Very difficult to capture with a coincident pair unless it is handheld so you can follow his mouth, in which case you find your elbow is etching a figure of eight in the air! (Um... no, a figure-of-eight response is not the solution to this problem.)

I have made quite a few recordings of Newari ritual music in the Kahmandu valley, and the big problem with this type of music is that the lead vocalist, who leads all the other voices (which may number anywhere from a handful to a few dozen) also plays harmonium and therefore is sitting cross-legged on the floor and always looking down and leaning over the little keyboard (they pump it by hand) while singing. I can get a reasonable result using an MS pair positioned down low and facing upward, but I suspect the real solution is a spot microphone on his voice (probably a lavalier because he always rocks back and forth), blended in with a stereo pair. And, for this music, given a choice I'd probably use ORTF or a spaced pair of omnis for the stereo pair because, with an ensemble so large, a sense of 'bigness' is more important than pinpoint imaging. This will also let me adhere to the 3:1 rule for the moving spot microphone, minimising comb filtering problems.

rfreez wrote:
I look forward to hearing of possible alternate approaches, as well as caveats and problems i might encounter with either of the two illustrated approaches.

It might be wise to invest in a matched pair of microphones that offer switched polar response (omni, cardioid, bidirectional). Then you can do *any* stereo technique you need to. A matched pair of AKG 414s might be a good choice from this point of view...

I hope this has been helpful.

since Simmosonic mentioned waterlily, I thought id throw out this interview with man himself, Mr. Kavi Alexander.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/intervis/waterlily_e.html

TeddyBullard wrote: http://www.tnt-audi…

Great link, thanks Teddy! I am a great fan of Kavi Alexander's work and his philosophy of recording and have quite a few of his CDs in my collection. But I am very surprised to learn that he has moved to digital (as was the interviewer, by the look of it). The Alan Watt's quote that "...faith is not clinging to a rock, faith is learning to swim" is gold.

I am also pleased to read his reasons for moving on from his tube/tape system. They all make good sense. I had to make a similar decision some years ago when I decided to ditch my ribbon microphones, custom-made microphone preamps, Prism AD converter etc., in favour of a rig I could pack in a bag and carry with me. As much as I loved the sound of my older system, I have never looked back. In fact, the new rig opened many possibilities for me; hence, I am sitting in Pokhara, Nepal, after making a recording in a remote village with no AC.

I am sure Kavi is going to produce a wealth of fantastic recordings now that he can go to directly to the musicians! It's a pity he's not on this forum to answer the questions that prompted this thread...

I shot him an email, maybe he will respond??

Some words of advice from David Lewiston (posted here with his permission):

"When it's Indian classical (vina, sarod, sitar, etc + tabla/mrdangam) I like to use a crossed pair closer to soloist than drummer, say 1/3 to 1/4, with detail mics close in on the bridge of the stringed instrument and between the tabla pair, recorded to 744T tracks 3 & 4 so that I can do a mix later. Used this setup for Hindustani slide guitar, with the crossed pair overhead. Pleasing sound."

To the best of my knowledge, David's XY pair contains Neumann KM84s...

TeddyBullard wrote: I shot him an email, maybe he will respond??

It would be interesting to compare his approach with David Lewiston's...

Mr. Alexander has declined to post here, but has offered me this information, for the benefit of all who are interested, which I accepted, most graciously.
(used with permission)

"When it comes to recordings of the non Western classical traditions, I think David. B. Jones has to ranked at the very top. He is the one who did the Connoisseur Society (their technical "guru" was Bela Bartok's son Peter!) recordings of Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, the greatest living Indian musician. Jones also did some of the Nonesuch recordings as well (thereally good ones) employing the same Sony tube mikes he used to
record Dr. Khan. Check out the Ramnad Krishnan title on Nonesuch.
There are also many, many Indian EMI recordings that are truly superlative. Mostly it was the vinyl that was dismal (even this,they
got it right at times!), but the recordings themselves, mostly
were good and sometimes outstanding. Simple mike techniques and tube electronics did the trick. I have a Malika Arjun Mansoor recording that is at the top of the list. So is the M.S. Subbulakshmi boxed set of LPs recorded "live" at a UN gala for UThant. In spite of the most embarrassing and hideouly ugly song in English (!) by Indial politician Rajaji, these LPs capture the queen in all her glory. Then, there are the many Yugal Bandi
recordings. The first one is of course the original Bismillah Khan/
Vilayat Khan pairing. This great recording was produced by Suviraj
Grubb,the only Indian to ever produce Western classical recordings. He
replacedWalter Legge at EMI as the principal producer and worked with all thegreats, from Barenboim, Zukerman, Perlman and Du Pre to Barbirolli,
Richter, Fischer-Dieskau and Klemperer. I must also mention the V.G.
Jog and Bismillah pairing which is also great. The recording of Lalgudi
Jayaraman and N. Ramani titled "Violin, Venu, Veena" also tops the
list. Some good recordings were also released on the Swedish label
Amigo (two of Nikil Banerjee and one each of Amjad Ali Khan and Ram
Narayan) while Sonet put out the most beatiful yugal bandi recording with
Shivkumar and Hariprasad.

The German label Loft, amoung other titles, released an excellent double lp of the junior Dagar Brothers, and the French label Still, which along with a surbahar recording of Imrat Khan,
has released the only recordings (two LP boxed sets) worth having,
of the Karnatic legend T.R. Mahalingam. The other two recordings of Mali, on Indian EMI, are truly horrid. Taking of French labels, two outstanding recordings of Zia Mohinudinn Dager (Rudra vina) on Alvares and Auvidis
respectively. The later also released a good recording of the junior Dagar Brothers. Another label called ESP put out ten or so recordings, of which there is a Hari Prasad that is wonderfull, as is the one of Fariduddin Dagar (vocalist brother of Zia). Their recording of the Bauls, though of a lesser crew than the Purnadas (the very same man on the cover of Dylan's "John Wesly Harding" album) outfit on Nonesuch, Electra and Buddah, sonicaly is
the best. Barclay (a jazz label started by the beautiful Nicole Barclay) too, released two recordings of Nagaswara Rao (vina), the same artist on Nonesuch, as did French CBS, a recording of Emani Shankar Shastry. Another French woman started Shandar that released a
great recording of Pandit Pran Nath, as well as Terry Reily's "Persian SurgeryDervishes". Arion released a very good recording of D.K. Pattamal, while Vogue has an outstanding recording of Parapancham Sita Ram (Karnatic flute) with Guruvayur Dorai on mirdangam.

Chante du Monde has a very fine
collection of Flamenco with great masters such as Pepe de la Metrona, with equally great sound. Andre Charlin made not just great speakers (electrostatic/dynamic hybrids) and amps (tube and solid state) but also truly great recordings, though most of them were of Western
Classical music. He did however do a Koto (like Cook) recording for Kenwood (yes, the ones who made one of the greatest turntables, the LO7D). I have a feeling that Charlin was responsible (or at least
partly) for the ORTF technique. Having mentioned France, Icertainly
must mention the great Indologist Alain Danielou, who edited the
wonderful UNESCO collection of recordings. Though the sound on many of
these is rather poor, having been done by some "ethnomusicologist"
with a cassette recorder and mikes with wind screens, two recordings do stand out. They are the LP of the Dagar Brothers (Sr) and a Karnatic
compilation with vocal tracks by Semanguddi Srinivasa Iyar. Though these recordings are in mono, the sound and performance, are out of this world!
Danielou introduced the Dager Brothers to the West in the early 60s. I have heard that Nadia Boulanger, the great Parisian music teacher, after hearing the Dagar Brothers remarked "This is real music! We have been wasting our time!".

Last but not least, there is the French Ocora catalog, a treasure
to ransom a king, with many, many outstanding recordings of the most
exotic music. Check out the Munir Bashir (Oud) recording or the
Emani Shankar Shastry (vina) recording with Madras Kannan on mirdangam! I also have a Portuguese EMI recording of Amilia Rodriguez
that is outstanding.
From the UK, Tangent had a steady out put including a collection of music from Ethiopia, as well the "Music from the World of Islam" boxed set. But, Tangent never had truly great sound. Speaking
of UK, I must mention the Hannibal recording of Nazakat and Salamat Ali, which is good. Another forgotten hero is Ron Marlo of Chess. Listen to the Muddy Waters "Folk Singer" LP and the "live" Ahmed Jamal LP titled
"Alhambra". Emory Cook is another great who has also been forgotten. Way back in the 50s, he was releasing recordings of the Tarahumara Indian (the very ones Antonin Artaud "visited") peyote chants, as well
as Hindu temple music from the Caribbean!!! Richard Bock of World Pacific
also released great recordings, one in particular is the "live" recording of
vina vidwan S. Balachander with N. Ramani. So is the recording
of Brij Bhushan Kabra.

Jones, Malo, Cook, Bock, Danielou and Grubb, these are the men that I respect and hold in high esteem. They wrote the ground rules and charted the way and made it possible for the likes of me. The rest, including myself,
are like the blind men with the elephant in a dark room! Groping in the dark, stumbling
into mike stands, tripping over cables, spilling hot tea onto the
tapes...
and splitting hairs over the purity of the copper (or silver!) in the
mike
cables or the brand of tubes used!
The little I know, I learnt from listening to the recordings listed
above
and following carefully the works of the masters mentioned, who were my
inspiration. To them I offer my gratitude.
Kavi Alexander.. "

TeddyBullard wrote: Mr. Alexander has declined to post here, but has offered me this information, for the benefit of all who are interested, which I accepted, most graciously.

Fantastic!

hello simmosonic

Your post has been here for a while now, unanswered, so I thought I'd give it a go.

thank you simmosonic... i had almost given up checking here for a reply :) this group is moving a little slowly... really hope it would pick up as theres nothing out there that aims to do what this does.

I'm curious about your definition of 'purist'...

what a coincidence! so am i! but seriously... i don't know anymore. my interest in this scene literally started with listening to waterlily/kavi alexander's work. and following his methodology, i was (am) looking looking for a two mic coincident setup. But i am getting increasingly worried that it would not serve the music well. In his catalogue, theres no real equivalent of the particular music i want to record... (tho' thats the sound i am going for). Currently i am interested in recording only carnatic (vocal-centric) trios and quartets, and i have two main problems, both of which you already sympathise with:

1. the percussion instruments can easily dominate the vocal and
2. the singer frequently sways in all four directions plus a fair bit of movement along the vertical axis as well.

the third thing that gets in the way of many possible coincident solutions that i personally have decided to never compromise on sight lines. The music is severely improvised and according to me, proximity and sight lines are more important than a bit of audio quality.

coming back to what i mean by 'purist'... once again, i really don't know. duh. Let me put it this way... maximum possible music appreciation potential for the listener, using minimum amount of technology over the process of producing the music. So i don't mean it in a necessarily audiophile sense... but thats where it seems (seemed?) to be heading.

With a 3rd world budget, I assume you are referring to simplicity, rather than having custom-made tube equipment and so on.

let me be straight here... i mean about $6000... and you know its quite a lot in this sub continent. $6000 will buy me a stereo pair of akg c414 xls or similar, a metric halo uln-2, a macbook, a mic stand, a couple of cables and a pair of headphones.

now if i have to go 4 mics, they will be something like peluso cemc6 with various capsules (poor man's schoeps), an rme fireface, a pc laptop and accessories. Already there are compromises i'd rather not make.

if i have to go more than four mics... i'll just take a break now and get back to this when i'm financially ready.

Using EQ has always been a no-no for the purist, but with linear phase EQ I don't think there is any problem.

I agree that linear phase eq sounds quite natural if used judiciously (i use waves for my regular work) and i don't mind it at all, as long as the basic sound without the eq is fine... the eq should add only a little something, not be a major part of the sound.

But, from the position of the stereo microphone rig shown in your illustration, I am assuming the musicians are all facing the front. In which case, an omni M capsule probably isn't a good choice.

Sorry, my illustration was not accurate. The violin (not sarangi!) player and the mrithangam player are facing each other, both are at right angles to the singer and ancillary percussion and drone sit between the singer and mrithangist and singer and violinist respectively.

Whoever said "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" wasn't using a big enough stick.

thats a funny one. but in this case, all i am is a reasonably well connected guy with the respect of a few top musicians. If and when my project takes off, i'll be using all my influence and brownie points that i have earned through years of work, to get the big masters of the music just to work on my project. I will have to be servile and humble and obedient... i won't be whacking no old dogs with big sticks :)

well, what the heck, by this time I was dancing around the fire with the other women, having moved the Nagra and microphone rig back to make more room...

that was a very funny story :) i can just picture it in my head :) about the nagra... after my chat with kavi about two years ago i had wanted to go down the nagra/stellavox route... the thing that made me change my mind is the necessity of changing tapes every half hour or so... some of the pieces i record extend well into the hour (i remember one that was an hour and 53 minutes long... the longest i have recorded). And the bulk of tapes in such a remote place.... how do YOU manage?

Is a stereo pair enough? Crikey! You're only recording three instruments... If you add a spot microphone you'll have three microphones. Maybe you could close mic each instrument and throw your purist intentions out the window!

well.. if its three mics that will get the job done i'll go with three, its 18 mics, i'll go with 18. I just want to use the minimum number of mics that will give me a wholesome, natural and balanced sense of the music. So again, i think i do my intentions more harm than good by using the word 'purist'. I take that back :)

In other words, a good volume balance but a poor depth balance.

now this is a can of worms i had not opened before. i guess now that only if the music is naturally acoustically balanced are there any obvious 2 microphone solutions...

It might be wise to invest in a matched pair of microphones that offer switched polar response (omni, cardioid, bidirectional). Then you can do *any* stereo technique you need to. A matched pair of AKG 414s might be a good choice from this point of view...

thank you... it does seem to be the best option. i guess theres no getting away from the trial and error method, with as many options as i can afford. Only... if i put my 6K into a C414 stereo pair rig, and find out that i am not able to make the music translate well, what will i do? I won't have money to buy more mics, pres etc and i won't be happy enough with my work... I know this is a question nobody can answer... i'm just ranting.

Once again simmosonic, thanks a ton for taking the time ang good luck with you injuries. Next time you're at a nepali ethnic party, have an extra drink for me :)

cheers!

rfreez.

What a great thread. I sure hope the software admin doesn't do another cleanup and delete these posts. I am going to copy this content out just in case. Thanks Simmo, Teddy and rfreez for these excellent posts.

Simmo have you got that red lentil curry recipe for me yet? Try and get it when you are not nudging the turps as well, please. :)

teddy bullard

this ones for you! thanks very much for the kavi alexander info. heres an article you might enjoy...

http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/527/index.html

those Beveridge electrostatic speakers of kavi's seem to cost $65000! I cannot even imagine so much money... three wholesome meals cost me about $1 here.

kavi has moved to digital and solid state. i can't believe it. Through the 80s and everything, when folks were terribly impressed with digital 'fidelity' and low noise floor and whatever, this man and his friend tim paravicini were shouting out for analog... paravicini has more recently said that 192 Khz is a joke! and now this! there is a saying in my language which goes 'even if the lion is starving, he will never eat grass'. (sorry... i could'nt help it :)) Don't get me wrong... he still remains one of my heroes. He offers a wealth of precious information saluting his gurus instead of blowing his own trumpet. But its sad (for the world of tubes and tape...not music itself... i'm sure he'll make equally fine records in digital) that his sworn allegance to the old way has to be compromised for practical (and very good) reasons.

btw... anybody else feels that there is an uncanny similarity between kavi and his pop counterpart, rick rubin? the spirituality and poetry, the big beard, the love of analog....

with gratitude,
rfreez.

Thanks much!!!Teddy

rfreez wrote: teddy bullard

this ones for you! thanks very much for the kavi alexander info. heres an article you might enjoy...

http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/527/index.html

those Beveridge electrostatic speakers of kavi's seem to cost $65000! I cannot even imagine so much money... three wholesome meals cost me about $1 here.

kavi has moved to digital and solid state. i can't believe it. Through the 80s and everything, when folks were terribly impressed with digital 'fidelity' and low noise floor and whatever, this man and his friend tim paravicini were shouting out for analog... paravicini has more recently said that 192 Khz is a joke! and now this! there is a saying in my language which goes 'even if the lion is starving, he will never eat grass'. (sorry... i could'nt help it :)) Don't get me wrong... he still remains one of my heroes. He offers a wealth of precious information saluting his gurus instead of blowing his own trumpet. But its sad (for the world of tubes and tape...not music itself... i'm sure he'll make equally fine records in digital) that his sworn allegance to the old way has to be compromised for practical (and very good) reasons.

btw... anybody else feels that there is an uncanny similarity between kavi and his pop counterpart, rick rubin? the spirituality and poetry, the big beard, the love of analog....

with gratitude,
rfreez.

What is compromised?? His techniques are not compromised, his work is not. The move from tube/analog to solid state/digital is hardly a step backwards. I call it a giant step forwards, because now he can go anywhere he wishes without worrying about portability. More locales=More Kavi Alexander recordings=good thing. The old analog vs digital thing is so tired and overdone everywhere that It is hardly worth arguing about, but I love my Solid State gear. The Digital thing is a no brainer....evolution!

rfreez wrote: teddy bullard

this ones for you! thanks very much for the kavi alexander info. heres an article you might enjoy...

http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/527/index.html

those Beveridge electrostatic speakers of kavi's seem to cost $65000! I cannot even imagine so much money... three wholesome meals cost me about $1 here.

kavi has moved to digital and solid state. i can't believe it. Through the 80s and everything, when folks were terribly impressed with digital 'fidelity' and low noise floor and whatever, this man and his friend tim paravicini were shouting out for analog... paravicini has more recently said that 192 Khz is a joke! and now this! there is a saying in my language which goes 'even if the lion is starving, he will never eat grass'. (sorry... i could'nt help it :)) Don't get me wrong... he still remains one of my heroes. He offers a wealth of precious information saluting his gurus instead of blowing his own trumpet. But its sad (for the world of tubes and tape...not music itself... i'm sure he'll make equally fine records in digital) that his sworn allegance to the old way has to be compromised for practical (and very good) reasons.

btw... anybody else feels that there is an uncanny similarity between kavi and his pop counterpart, rick rubin? the spirituality and poetry, the big beard, the love of analog....

with gratitude,
rfreez.

This is a responce to Rfreez. I belive it was around three years ago that you contacted me and requested imformation on recording Karnatic music, which was freely given. Now, you dare insult me?! You are a rank amateur with no credibility. You have yet to pay your dues. I do not suffer fools gladly nor will I tolarate nonsence form the likes of you. You need to learn your place and EARN your position.
Yes, I rather be a lion which eats grass but remains a lion nevertheless, than a carrion eating hyena. Remember what Rumi said when questioned as to why he did not address his detractors. He simply replied "In time we will know... you have heard many stories that begin 'Once there was a lion...' but how many do you know that begin 'Once there was a jackal?'..."
Kavi Alexander.

dear kavi

please accept my apologies. you are my main inspiration... your work has moved me from electronic music to what i am going for. in our conversation, you were very kind and generous with information, even though, as you correctly stated, i am a rank amateur with no credibility.

please see that i said that i firmly believe that you will make great records no matter what be the medium. the lion and grass thing was not meant to be taken seriously... though in retrospect, i understand that it it was not in good taste.

my gratitude and respect to you.

it is sad however that rumi did not understand that "carrion eating hyenas" and "jackals" are also gods beautiful creatures and deserve no spite.

What is compromised?? His techniques are not compromised, his work is not. The move from tube/analog to solid state/digital is hardly a step backwards. I call it a giant step forwards, because now he can go anywhere he wishes without worrying about portability. More locales=More Kavi Alexander recordings=good thing. The old analog vs digital thing is so tired and overdone everywhere that It is hardly worth arguing about, but I love my Solid State gear. The Digital thing is a no brainer....evolution!

teddybullard... you misunderstood me... i did use the word "compromised" but if you read my post again you will see that it had absolutely nothing to do with kavi's technique or work.

a few careless words from my side has lead to all this hate. I must learn to be completely to the point henceforth.

regrets,

Kavi-

As one of the mods of this forum, let me extend a welcome.... Although you have words for Rfreez, there are also a lot of cool folks up here and we would be honored to have you around if you found the time for it.

--Ben

Kavi,

I am not a moderator or anything here, but I would like to second Ben's welcoming to this forum, and hope perhaps you'll contribute from time to time. So far, your direct and indirect contributions to this thread have been very informative.

I also hope that perhaps there has been a misunderstanding between Rfreez and yourself; I did not interpret his words as being in any way disrespectful to you. But... perhaps there are cultural differences here with regard to the meanings and contexts of sayings from other cultures/languages?

rfreez wrote: what a coincidence! so am i! but seriously... i don't know anymore.

'Purist' has many definitions in the recording industry, but the one thing they all have in common is the use of simple recording paths and very few microphones; in which case it goes hand-in-hand with 'minimalist'. Less is more... I think this is especially the case with acoustic music, and even moreso with traditional forms of music that have been around for centuries and are, in their own way, highly evolved.

Purist techniques work well for Western acoustic music such as string quartets and so on, because this music evolved for listening to. They can also work very well for other forms of acoustic music, but sometimes they don't.

rfreez wrote: my interest in this scene literally started with listening to waterlily/kavi alexander's work.

For me, the 'purist/minimalist' thing started with three labels: Reference Recordings, Water Lily and Chesky; I blew an entire $5k Amex card (still paying the damn thing off!) on amazon.com amassing a great reference library from those labels during 1998 to 2000. Interestingly, the only recordings of those that I play now for listening enjoyment are the Water Lilys. I'll pull out a Chesky or a Reference Recordings disc on nerd nights for a bit of 'gee whiz' when I'm sitting with some audiophile friends around a nice pair of monitors, but apart from that they rarely get played.

My interest in music from around the world can probably be traced back to David Lewiston's early recordings of Tibetan monks. I heard some of those when I was a teenager (ahem, back in the '70s) and the sound of that harmonic chanting has stuck with me ever since. I didn't even know what it was, back then, all I knew was that it was from Tibet and, in those days, all sorts of strange and wonderful things seemed to be coming from Tibet. It has now become 'export quality mysticism', but I digress...

rfreez wrote: Currently i am interested in recording only carnatic (vocal-centric) trios and quartets, and i have two main problems, both of which you already sympathise with:

1. the percussion instruments can easily dominate the vocal and
2. the singer frequently sways in all four directions plus a fair bit of movement along the vertical axis as well.

Here's the crux of the problem, and it presents quite a contradiction when trying to apply purist/minimalist recording philosophies: these 'musics' [apologies for a possibly pretentious word, but if Brian Eno and Jon Hassell can use it in an album title, I reckon it's okay] we are trying to record were never intended for recording - they serve very different functions. Some, such as the Nepalese stuff I mentioned in my previous post, is intended for dancing to or for summoning the people of the village, and there is no problem with very loud percussion when viewed in those contexts - in fact, it's a benefit. If there are only one or two vocalists then the percussion may be too loud from a recording/listening point of view, but in some cases there will be many vocalists, balancing or perhaps even dominating the percussion. For example, the Newari ritual music I have recorded in temples begins at about 6am with maybe three or four singers, but by the time it is finished a couple of hours later there are 30 or more locals sitting behind the musicians singing - they just come along and join in. When you get more than about 20 singers, it all falls into a nice balance from a recording/listening point of view. (When choosing my microphone position at about 5:30am, I have to keep this 'enlarging crowd effect' in mind. The best stuff is always when there are a lot of singers - some are sharp, some are flat, some are out of time, but all sing with such passion that I don't really mind.)

If I had to record this music with just a handful of singers, I would probably have to use a spot microphone or two to do it justice from a listening point of view. Or else, find some way to reduce the level of the tabla and/or mahdal (try to find some good gaffer tape in Nepal!).

I think it is fair to say that sometimes purity is not what we need! Rather, we need to create the *illusion* of purity.

rfreez wrote: the third thing that gets in the way of many possible coincident solutions that i personally have decided to never compromise on sight lines. The music is severely improvised and according to me, proximity and sight lines are more important than a bit of audio quality.

Right! This is actually a criticism of some of the audiophile labels, too. Sound quality takes precedence over performance quality. Putting the cart before the horse. Or the tiger in front of the goat.

rfreez wrote: let me be straight here... i mean about $6000... and you know its quite a lot in this sub continent.

It is almost criminal to be spending that much on recording equipment in that economy!

rfreez wrote: $6000 will buy me a stereo pair of akg c414 xls or similar, a metric halo uln-2, a macbook, a mic stand, a couple of cables and a pair of headphones.

Sorry to be pedantic, but you will be better served with *two* mic stands (so you can do spaced pairs), and also, one good stereo bar that allows you set up your AKGs in ORTF, XY, MS, Blumlein, whatever. Then you have many options. But don't underestimate the cost of these things; *good* microphone stands and a *good* stereo bar cost a bit of money. It is worth it, however, because good mic stands and a good stereo bar are a pleasure to work with and allow you to get on with focusing on the music. If you buy cheap stuff, you will eventually tire of the frustrating fiddling and so on, replace it with better stuff and, in the long run, end up spending more money than you should have. So, buy it once and buy it properly (if possible).

Having said that, don't forget that David Lewiston has made some great recordings of small ensembles by handholding two dynamic omnis!

rfreez wrote: now if i have to go 4 mics, they will be something like peluso cemc6 with various capsules (poor man's schoeps), an rme fireface, a pc laptop and accessories. Already there are compromises i'd rather not make.

Yes... there are always compromises, unfortunately. But I see no real problem with using a PC laptop instead of a Mac, nor of using an RME instead of the Metric Halo.

Would it be possible to shave some money by replacing the Mac with a PC, the Metric Halo with the RME, keep the AKGs and use the savings to get a third microphone for spotting?

But... what about software? And microphone preamplifiers?

rfreez wrote: Sorry, my illustration was not accurate. The violin (not sarangi!) player and the mrithangam player are facing each other, both are at right angles to the singer and ancillary percussion and drone sit between the singer and mrithangist and singer and violinist respectively.

Oh, okay. That changes things a bit. It pains me to say it, but perhaps you're going to need a spot mic on the vocalist. I reckon you ought to get by fine with three microphones - a matched pair (AKGs?) and a spot microphone just to bolster the voice. You will be able to move the instruments back and forth within reason to get their balance correct.

Regarding the spot microphone for the voice, a bidirectional response may be a good choice here - especially if the vocalist is playing an instrument. You'll be able to use the null of the mic to minimise the spill of the instrument itself.

rfreez wrote: I will have to be servile and humble and obedient... i won't be whacking no old dogs with big sticks :)

Point taken.

rfreez wrote: about the nagra... after my chat with kavi about two years ago i had wanted to go down the nagra/stellavox route... the thing that made me change my mind is the necessity of changing tapes every half hour or so... some of the pieces i record extend well into the hour (i remember one that was an hour and 53 minutes long... the longest i have recorded). And the bulk of tapes in such a remote place.... how do YOU manage?

One hour and 53 minutes long? No problem! I have recorded rituals that go for almost three hours, non stop. How?

My Nagra V is a digital machine with a removable 40GB USB2 hard drive [grin], which allows me to record about 17 hours of superb 24-bit 96k stereo audio. On battery power I can record *continously* (i.e. non-stop) for six hours. With stop and start recording, I get somewhere between 8 and 10 hours before needing to replace/recharge batteries. I turn it on, it works, problem solved, end of story. ;-)

rfreez wrote: i guess theres no getting away from the trial and error method, with as many options as i can afford. Only... if i put my 6K into a C414 stereo pair rig, and find out that i am not able to make the music translate well, what will i do?

I think you will be well-served with three microphones: a stereo pair and a spot microphone. Perhaps a matched pair of AKG 414s and a Peluso with interchangeable polar responses for the spot microphone (often the spot microphone is not the dominant microphone in the mix, sometimes only a touch is needed to do the job). And for other situations, you will only need the AKGs.

rfreez wrote: Next time you're at a nepali ethnic party, have an extra drink for me :)

Sure! What's your poison? Here the choices are Roxy, Roxy, Roxy, Roxy and Roxy. Sometimes I can dig up some chang (Tibetan barley beer). Anything there to your liking?

No worries, bud. btw, if you are looking for a nice stereo bar, I highly reccomend the k+m 235 and the Shure a27m. I have a mod for the shure bar that will allow you to run your AKGs head to head in blumlein...I have multiples of each, and consider them indispensible..

Teddy

rfreez wrote:

What is compromised?? His techniques are not compromised, his work is not. The move from tube/analog to solid state/digital is hardly a step backwards. I call it a giant step forwards, because now he can go anywhere he wishes without worrying about portability. More locales=More Kavi Alexander recordings=good thing. The old analog vs digital thing is so tired and overdone everywhere that It is hardly worth arguing about, but I love my Solid State gear. The Digital thing is a no brainer....evolution!

teddybullard... you misunderstood me... i did use the word "compromised" but if you read my post again you will see that it had absolutely nothing to do with kavi's technique or work.

a few careless words from my side has lead to all this hate. I must learn to be completely to the point henceforth.

regrets,

Dear Music Loving Friends, It is heart warming to have you reach out in such a noble manner. I am deeply moved by your kind gesture and thank you both for same. I shall gladly share with you, whatever little that I may know.
As for the affront: By reffering to the lion and it not eating grass no matter how hungry, he was indicating that I had "sold out" by going digital/solid state. In other words, I was not made of sterner stuff, for had I been, I would still be lugging around a 150 pound Studer C37! I have absolutly no objection to somone criticizing my work, but do not take kindly to someone questioning my integrity, especially when they do not have all the facts. What I was objecting to, was the implication that somehow I had failed, I had betrayed a cause, crossed party lines, gone astray... To fully undstand the reference to the lion, one needs to read the TNT interview. Further, he assumed that I had compleetly abandoned analog, which is not the case as the TNT interview makes clear.
Your member has very kindly appologised to me, both in private and publicly via this forum and I have accepted it unconditionaly. So, I say we put the veggitarian lions behind us and move on to more meaningfull things
such as how many strands of pure copper there needs to be in a mike cable! Lamb chopps anyone?!
I am honoured to be welcomed into such a wonderful forum and respect very much you keeping the flame of good sound alive. All the very best. Kavi Alexander.

dear kavi

i am really relieved that you have accepted my apology.

By reffering to the lion and it not eating grass no matter how hungry, he was indicating that I had "sold out" by going digital/solid state.

no sir... not at all. As i see it, we are all here to serve the music, not to serve tube or solid state or analog tape or digital. I for one, have stopped considering tape altogether because i do not feel that i can serve the music as well as i can, if i go down that way. I am sure that you have also started recording to digital (also) because you feel that you can contribute more to the preservation and propagation of rare music better, by adopting the best available digital technology.

i have always seen you as the shining beacon of tubes and tape, and i was very surprised that you have made some changes. I remember an interview of yours in which you have stated that (please correct me if i am wrong) 'the spiritual domain is the electro-magnetic domain is the analog domain' and 'when music is converted to digital, some of that spirit is lost'.
also another comment to the effect that the maker of the finest wine can do nothing about his clients drinking it from styrofoam cups... with regard to digital being the end user medium.

my (unnecessary) comment regarding the lion and grass was not an attack on your integrity... it was merely a (tongue in cheek) nod to the fact that sometimes we have to give up what we love in order serve our purpose. We may learn to love former opponents and see their better side, if it is for the greater good, particularly if the former opponent has also matured, as digital undoubtedly has. I NEVER doubted or questioned the integrity of your purpose.

with respect,

I think you will be well-served with three microphones: a stereo pair and a spot microphone. Perhaps a matched pair of AKG 414s and a Peluso with interchangeable polar responses for the spot microphone (often the spot microphone is not the dominant microphone in the mix, sometimes only a touch is needed to do the job). And for other situations, you will only need the AKGs.

Yes... there are always compromises, unfortunately. But I see no real problem with using a PC laptop instead of a Mac, nor of using an RME instead of the Metric Halo.

Would it be possible to shave some money by replacing the Mac with a PC, the Metric Halo with the RME, keep the AKGs and use the savings to get a third microphone for spotting?

simmosonic thanks again. That is the most encouraging and useful advice i have had for a very long time.... it gives me much hope for the near future.

because good mic stands and a good stereo bar are a pleasure to work with and allow you to get on with focusing on the music.

well... i'm thinking of this $175 stand, that comes highly recommended from a very reliable person.

(dead link removed)

I highly reccomend the k+m 235 and the Shure a27m. I have a mod for the shure bar that will allow you to run your AKGs head to head in blumlein.

thanks teddy... i am looking at this microphone kit

http://www.frontendaudio.com/AKG_C414B_XLS_ST_Factory_Matched_Stereo_Pair_of_C4_p/6534.htm

which comes with this stereo bar

http://www.akg-acoustics.com/products/powerslave,mynodeid,186,id,81,pid,81,_language,EN.html

but as you say... i don't think i can use it for x/y or blumlein... point me in the direction of the mod for the shure a27m please...

thanks again y'all,

rfreez.

Yes, I did say the things you mention and still do belive it what I said then! Which is why I still have two Stellavox recorders and did indeed use one of them (in tandam with the Tascam DSD recorder) for my recording of the Mahler 5th. And keep in mind, I still listen only to LPs!!!
Let me make myself very clear: I belive the current crop of both Hi Rez PCM and DSD converters/recorders have pushed the digital envelop to the point that I like the sonic results they yeild. Thus, I use both mediums in conjunction with my analog recorders. As the "audiophiles", the only ones who buy LPs, did not care for the music I offered, I stopped LP production.
I continued to record analog, as I did not like the sound of digital, until it "came of age". Thus, I embraced it and now record in both formats. Well, in three formats: Hi Rez PCM (24bit/96kHz) for CD and DVD A release, DSD for SACD release amd analog for LP release. Now that I am recording symphonic music, I am hoping that the "audiophiles" will buy my LPs when I resume production of same.
What enraged me about your lion comment was that I felt it was cheeky and thus disrespectfull, considering my age and my dedication to the good cause. Besides, you did not have all the facts, nor the right in this context, never having "carried the cross" and run the risk of running a record company. You have never undergone the "labour pains" of birthing a labour of love into a living entity. You have not shed the blood, sweat and tears it take to walk the stright and narrow path. You have not delt with the wolf at the door... Remember, the unworthy are driven out of the temple with a whip...
In your eyes (and ears?), I was Simon pure and then I turned into a Judas!
Maybe I was Saul on my way... and then saw the digital light!

As for you comment about Rumi - all I can say is that you should read his works and get a better understanding as to who he really was. Trust me, he knew far more than you and I will ever know!
"Be glad, the song has no ending..." KAVI.

Wow - I have totally missed out on this discussion and our new member!

Kavi - I would like to extend a very warm welcome to you. Your presence here is very welcome and personally, I feel very humble that you are with us now.

Thanks for joining in!

Kavi, I am honored to see you here. Us young guys(and old, im certain!) could learn a lot from you. I hope that you will continue to post.

Teddy

Kavi, I am honored to see you here. Us young guys(and old, im certain!) could learn a lot from you. I hope that you will continue to post.

yes sir! please do join us. Please let my ill considered words not keep you from sharing your experience with us. Some of your fans here have been very kind to me and i would certainly not like to be the reason we lose the precious chance of learning from you.

respect.

I thank all of you for the kindness extended. I have no hard feelings whatsoever. Let us forget the past.
I would like to add to the list of recordings mentioned in my first post and will do so in a day or two. If any one would like to know where they could hopefully find some of these jems, please drop me a line and I shall provide you the info. May your muse be your guide... KAVI.

dear kavi...

with reference to your "kalyani" cd, which i play as a reference for how smooth the violin can sound, several violin players swear that the violin and tampura sounds are not entirely acoustic... can you tell us if it an amplified violin, as in 'electric modes' (which i have not heard) or just the acoustic sound itself. Secondly how did you place the 3 musicians to get that beautiful and natural balance, and how far away was the microphone pair?

also... can you point me in the direction of any carnatic vocal recordings (with the usual accompaniments) done with only two mics? Of your previous list, i have heard the Ramnad Krishnan and M.S.Subbulakshmi recordings only, and i think both are close mic'd. Please correct me if i am wrong.

Lastly, can you give me any tips on recording the regular carnatic quartet (vocal-violin-mrithangam-ghatam (or ganjira) + tampura) using a minimum number of mics. As is evident from this thread, we have, in theory found nothing less than three mics that is safely workable.

thanks and regards,

Hello all, and hello Kavi Alexander

kavichandran wrote: I have absolutly no objection to somone criticizing my work

While I'm not really planning to do that, allow me to repost what I posted over at gearslutz, in response to your comments posted by TeddyBullard, over there and here:

Daniel wrote:
Quotes by kavi Alexander in blue italics

There are also many, many Indian EMI recordings that are truly superlative. Mostly it was the vinyl that was dismal (even this,they got it right at times!), but the recordings themselves, mostly were good and sometimes outstanding. Simple mike techniques and tube electronics did the trick.

Very true. Nikhil Banerjee's Jaunpuri/Mand LP (originally EASD 1378) is an excellent example, esp. the Tabla sound. I believe it's available on CD, but I don't know how well it's been transferred. I'd really like to know what mikes were used for that.

I have a Malika Arjun Mansoor recording that is at the top of the list.
I wonder which one he's referring to.

Some good recordings were also released on the Swedish label Amigo (two of Nikil Banerjee and one each of Amjad Ali Khan and Ram Narayan)
The Nikhil Banerjee and Amjad Ali Khan recordings are now available on CD on the Audiorec label (http://www.audiorec.co.uk). I wouldn't rate the (live) Nikhil Banerjee recordings so highly in technical terms, but the Amjad Ali Khan recording sounds very good. (it was also released by Sonodisc).

The German label Loft, amoung other titles, released an excellent double lp of the junior Dagar Brothers
IIRC, a fairly reverberant live recording from a church. Suits the music, though. Another one worth mentioning is a solo recording (absolutely solo, not even a Tanpura) of Hariprasad Chaurasia's flute. Shame that none of these have been released on CD.

The little I know, I learnt from listening to the recordings listed above and following carefully the works of the masters mentioned, who were my inspiration. To them I offer my gratitude.
Kavi Alexander..

What I find interesting is that the sound ideal of the (admittedly few) WLA Indian Music recordings I've heard seems to be quite different from the ones quoted above, all or most of which I believe to be multi-microphone close-miked setups, as opposed to the purist Blumlein setup used in WLA recordings. As far as my personal taste is concerned, one-point stereo techniques are not ideal for repertoire like Indian Classical Music. Earlier Nimbus recordings are good examples of what IMHO Indian Music should not sound like. I personally find close miking distinctly more suitable to this music in principle (even though there is also a good deal of potential for bad sound quality, of course...) and most of the recordings mentioned by Kavi Alexander follow this ideal (Nonesuch, EMI etc.). But that's just my opinion and this may not be the place to discuss it. In case anyone still wishes to do so, let me know.

I agree with your assessment of the recordings you've mentioned (and thank you for some detailed insight), but I wonder how this goes with your own recording philosophy, which is so strictly against multi-microphone setups. My sound ideal is more or less the opposite when it comes to Indian Music (not as far as western classical music is concerned, although I must admit I prefer small AB setups to coincident techniques...).

As far as Indian music is concerned, I'm all for close-miking, and I will elaborate, if there's any interest...

Regards,
Daniel

Since I am not very good with computers (the reason I stuck with analog!) and thus hate e-mails, preferring the phone, I shall answer the two who have posted questions, with this one post. First, yes, on "Kalyani" the violin IS amplified. This was the wish of the artist and I did not have much say, although I tried very, very hard. He did however, allow me to substitue the amp for a tube based unit. Of the four recordings I have released of Dr. L. Subramaniam (Electric Modes. Kalyani, Saraswathi and From the Ashes), only on "From the Ashes" did I manage to get him to play unamplifid. I had tried to borrow an Amati for this gig, but it did not work out. The fifth recording of Mani with V.G. Jog is also acoustic (for both artists) and is yet to be released.
The recordings mentioned, I belive were loosely "graded" (or at least identified) as good and great. You are of course free to disagree. I do not give a damn what you think. I did what I did, as a service to the members of this forum, to share relevent information. I did not submit the list for record review! Another reason for listing the Amigo LPs was in the spirit of being through and further, to let the members of this forum, who reside mostly in the West, to try and find same. I mean, where on earth are you going to find EMI LPs today in the West? The chances are far grater that you find an Amigo or Loftt LP, rather than an Indian EMI! Another reason was that the recordings done in the West (except the Gotuvadaym recording on Folkways), reguardless of sonics, were better pressed than most Indian EMIs.
I am very well aware that none of those listed as the ones I admire, recorded the way I do. So what? Who says that you can not learn from one who is a practitioner of the same art, but employs different pigments and or brush strokes? If you study with Nadia Boulanger you do not necessarily compose in the vain of Stravinsky! I learnt much from their work and they were my inspiration.
I enjoy good music. I do not care how the results were arrived at. If the music is of interest to me, the artists are of high caliber and the performence superletive, I buy the recording period.
If you would kindly e-mail me your phone number, I will gladly call you and answer all your questions, as to how I got the results I have obtained on my recordings. Please keep in mind that recording, as I see it, is an art. It is conjuring the spirit, a Tantric ritual. Ultimatly, you are not in control. Thus, I may not have the "fool proof", "iorn clad" answers!
May the music move you within... KAVI.

Kavi,

thanks for the reply.

kavichandran wrote: First, yes, on "Kalyani" the violin IS amplified. This was the wish of the artist and I did not have much say, although I tried very, very hard

Funny that he won't even record without amp...

The recordings mentioned, I belive were loosely "graded" (or at least identified) as good and great. You are of course free to disagree. I do not give a damn what you think.

Sure... But then, in fact I agree with you 99%, e.g. on the fact that some of the old EMI recordings are indeed very good, or concerning the Nonesuch ones (also Ram Narayan's recordings). By the way, which Mallikarjun Mansur recording were you referring to?

I did what I did, as a service to the members of this forum, to share relevent information.

And all I did was to add a bit of my own information to that...

Another reason for listing the Amigo LPs was in the spirit of being through and further, to let the members of this forum, who reside mostly in the West, to try and find same. I mean, where on earth are you going to find EMI LPs today in the West?

Nowadays, nowhere... And you hardly even find them in India anymore. Some shops in Southall may still have limited supply. And there are one or two specialised dealers in Europe that still have a few or occasionally offer some when a private collector sells his collection. (If anyone is interested, I can supply details). My own private collection consists of over 300 LPs of Indian Classical Music. No, I ain't selling... :D

The chances are far grater that you find an Amigo or Loftt LP,

I doubt it, I don't think Loft still exist. As for Amigo, I don't know. But as I mentioned, these recordings have been rereleased on CD (even though that may not be of interest to true audiophiles).

Another reason was that the recordings done in the West (except the Gotuvadaym recording on Folkways), reguardless of sonics, were better pressed than most Indian EMIs.

Just out of curiosity, would/do you still prefer mediocre EMI pressings to the corresponding CD releases?

I am very well aware that none of those listed as the ones I admire, recorded the way I do. So what? Who says that you can not learn from one who is a practitioner of the same art, but employs different pigments and or brush strokes?

Good point.

If you would kindly e-mail me your phone number, I will gladly call you and answer all your questions, as to how I got the results I have obtained on my recordings.

I will do so with pleasure. I'll fill out the feedback form on your website in a moment.

Best wishes,
Daniel

Dear Daniel, Some of the comments in my last post were intended for the other member interested in recording Karnatic trios. You too are wellcome to call me any time, if you wish.
When I lived in France/Swedan (1968 to 1981), I used to order LPs from The Indian Record House in South Hall. The person I delt with truly knew his stuff!
I simply do not listen to CDs, SACDs or DVD-As. Strictly LPs, no matter what the music. I weed out the truly bad pressings. I am not compulsive in wanting to have everything. I am not a CONSUMER. (There is a Sufi saying: "If you are a consumer, you WILL be consumed!). The way I see it, I rather have a few recordings, where all the elements come together, to induce bliss in the listener. After all, look at it this way: you are not going to see all the great works of art, hear all the great concerts, date all the lovely damsels and swim in every warm tropical sea in the moon light!
I am thankfull for the small miracles that come into my like... even if be only an Amigo LP of the second greatest sitarist.
Loftt may be defunct, but Peter Panke is certainly alive and well. This man deserves a lot of credit. A lot of great Indian music released in Germany, including the Loftt titles, came into being thanks to him. A student of Drupad, he was also a friend of Alain Danielou. Peter was kind enough to send me a very rare recording. When Danielou recorded the Dagar Brothers (Sr) in Berlin, which resulterd in the UNESCO LP mentioned by me, the tape ran out on the first Rag. Danielou gave a copy of this to Peter, before he passed away. In my will, this will go to the woman I love. (She better hurry up and show up at my door step soon!!!)
I shall be adding to my list soon. May you walk in the shadow of your mike stand(s)... KAVI.

Rfreez, I made a small error in my post answering your questions. "Sraswathi" too is all acoustics. I can not belive it was recorded 15 years ago! So, "Electric Modes" Vol 1 & 2 (Except Ragam Kapi which was done on Tim's one inch Studer C37, all other track were done on a 1/4 inch Ampex MR 70. The pre amp on these tracks (MR 70) too is different. A tube (employing the 7788 pentode, whereas Tim's was triode based) unit designed by another outstanding designer, Jeff Cook} and "Kalyani" were recorded with Mani playing an violin with a pick up fed into a tube amp. "Sraswathi", "From the Ashes" and the yet to be released Mani/Jog are all acoustic. Drones were a mix of Shruti Box (electric of course! no "petti"s here, no such luck!) and tanpuras. "Kalyani", "Saraswathi", "From the Ashes" and Mani/Jog were all recorded using the Tim/EAR tube chain.

Hello Kavi,,

kavichandran wrote: Dear Daniel, Some of the comments in my last post were intended for the other member interested in recording Karnatic trios. Y

Sorry if I misinterpreted that...

Loftt may be defunct, but Peter Panke is certainly alive and well. This man deserves a lot of credit. A lot of great Indian music released in Germany, including the Loftt titles, came into being thanks to him.

Another interesting detail... Or maybe I knew that and forgot... :D

Best wishes,
Daniel

kavichandran wrote: May you walk in the shadow of your mike stand(s)... KAVI.

Dear Kavi,

Many thanks to you for allowing me / us to bask in the shadows of your mike stands, from your many great recordings.
I've tried to emulate your values in my two channel ambient recordings for many years, to varying degrees of success.

I've recorded extensively within the Persian music community, working with the masters of Mysticism, and Sufiism, including many of the highest regarded masters,... Ostads M.R. Lotfi, Hossein Omoumi, Manoochehr Sadeghi, Sima Bina, as well as their contemporary proteges (the next ostads).
As you know, its not dissimilar to the Indian classical music, Carnatic Music.

I also record extensively in the western classical chamber music events in southern California.

Somehow, I'm blessed and accepted within these communities, and have recorded them live for many years now.
Every time I fly my mics in these circumstances, I've thought of Water Lily Acoustics, and your efforts.

Thanks for your input in this thread.

Mike French

long time live ambient recordist,......
dpa->
grace->
sound devices

Dear Daniel, Do you know if German Harmonia Mundi did release any Indian/Persian/Arab classical music? Of course, French Harmonia Mundi did release some very fine recordings of Persian music.
In my first posting, I had forgotten to mention the Caprice two LP set from Sweden. Great cover, good sound and great tracks from masters such as Balachander and Bimsen Joshi amoung others. From Germany there was also the Museum Collection from Berlin. From this collection I have three LPs: A veea recording (the artist, a young woman, is competent but no more), a recording of sufi zikir from Sudan and the crown jewel of then all, the Chinese Chin recording. The Chin, for me is up there with the Rudra Vina and the Surbahar. This recording was done with two AKG CK 1s feeding a Nagraa IV-S! This is a must have for the music (first and foremost) and the sound. Being German, a very good pressing too. (This LP was given to me as a gift by Henry Kaiser. God bless his heart and fingers! Henry also turned me onto sitarist Jaffar Ali Khan. I have three LPs of his on Indian EMI that are great.) The only other recording that I know for sure was done with only two mikes, is the East Greets East LP by Ravi Shankar. This is a Deutsche Grammophon release and the copy I have is a Japanese pressing. A photo on the gatefold shows two mikes spaced about a foot apart and are CMC 55s. Seems like it was recorded onto a Studer A80. There is the number two (two track?) after A80 followed by text in Japanese. There are also the letters JRC followed by Japanese text. A mixer perhaps? Maybe a typo and it should have read JVC?! Anyway, this recording ia a dud, neither the music nor the sound (big disapointment) are worth writing home about. I wish it had been otherwise.
Another rare jem I forgot to mention is on a lable called Concert Hall (!). It features Aminudin Dager (of the elder Dagar Brothers) singing with Farridudin Dagar! I think after his brother Mohinuddin passed away, Aminudin sang with his younger relative. (I have a solo recording of Aminudin Dagar on Indian EMI, which though swamped in reverb, is worth having for the performence, if not the sound) And on mirdanga is the regal Raja Chatrapathi, who on the color cover looks very dapper (as always!) with his waxed moustache!
More to come... KAVI.

Lets all give a big welcome to Mr. Mike French (two Frenchs here now!), who is quite an accomplished ambient recordist, whos efforts I have heard and admired...welcome, Moke.

I hope you will stick around. This is one of the most civil, professional, and knowledge-filled forums on the web.

Teddy

Moke wrote: [quote=kavichandran] May you walk in the shadow of your mike stand(s)... KAVI.

Dear Kavi,

Many thanks to you for allowing me / us to bask in the shadows of your mike stands, from your many great recordings.
I've tried to emulate your values in my two channel ambient recordings for many years, to varying degrees of success.

I've recorded extensively within the Persian music community, working with the masters of Mysticism, and Sufiism, including many of the highest regarded masters,... Ostads M.R. Lotfi, Hossein Omoumi, Manoochehr Sadeghi, Sima Bina, as well as their contemporary proteges (the next ostads).
As you know, its not dissimilar to the Indian classical music, Carnatic Music.

I also record extensively in the western classical chamber music events in southern California.

Somehow, I'm blessed and accepted within these communities, and have recorded them live for many years now.
Every time I fly my mics in these circumstances, I've thought of Water Lily Acoustics, and your efforts.

Thanks for your input in this thread.

Mike French

long time live ambient recordist,......
dpa->
grace->
sound devices

Dear Mike, Thank you very much for the kind words! Having recorded Persian masters, you are no doubt intimate with sufi thought. But for those who are not, let me explain the "In the shadow of your mike stand" bit. It was my twist on "In the shadow of the Lord". As Rumi says, our work is our mirror. Work as it was understood in the Guild/Craft circles. By and through our work, we polish the raw diamond that we all are and thus seek perfection. Thus, the mike stand is our "Lord", as it upholds the mikes, the "Heart of the Matter"! And in the chrome of the mike stand may we see the face of the beloved! I hope I have made myself clear.
Now, those of you, who like me have carbon fiber mike stands, are @#$& out of luck! Sorry, but could not help that crack... but then again humor was a great tool for the sufis and other such moldy figs...
Thank you for keeping the flame alive by recording the Great Persian masters!
May your carbon fiber mike stand (in case you have one of those!) develop a sheen, so that you may see the face of the Beloved therein!
All the very, very best. KAVI.

kavichandran wrote: Dear Mike, Thank you very much for the kind words! Having recorded Persian masters, you are no doubt intimate with sufi thought. But for those who are not, let me explain the "In the shadow of your mike stand" bit. It was my twist on "In the shadow of the Lord". As Rumi says, our work is our mirror. Work as it was understood in the Guild/Craft circles. By and through our work, we polish the raw diamond that we all are and thus seek perfection. Thus, the mike stand is our "Lord", as it upholds the mikes, the "Heart of the Matter"! And in the chrome of the mike stand may we see the face of the beloved! I hope I have made myself clear.
Now, those of you, who like me have carbon fiber mike stands, are @#$& out of luck! Sorry, but could not help that crack... but then again humor was a great tool for the sufis and other such moldy figs...
Thank you for keeping the flame alive by recording the Great Persian masters!

thanks for that.
I understand the theories about as well as a west coast surfer / roving deadhead recordist can. In other words,... I'm just a slice of wonderbread americana, that has somehow been accepted deeply within the world of Persian music. A fortunate evenings contact at a concert, and the rest is still playing itself out in real time. I've grown to deeply love the music and the culture.

I learned long ago to just go with the flow rather than to fight it. The flow has also taken me to the masters of reggae music, and will take me to places that I probably can't even conceive of yet.

As far as keeping the flame alive, in recording persian music....
This is a simple choice, given the opportunity. Its amazing music.
I'm having a harder time in appreciating the vocals, as I only speak about 5 words of Farsi (exception to names of players, and instruments). I can appreciate the talent, but, not understanding the words makes me appreciate the instrumental portions all the more.
The words that they've taught me, and, what they tell me is all that I need to know are Salaam Alayka, which is basically Peace Be With You, to my understanding, and, which fits right into my old hippie background.

kavichandran wrote:

May your carbon fiber mike stand (in case you have one of those!) develop a sheen, so that you may see the face of the Beloved therein!
All the very, very best. KAVI.

thank you
my mic stands have more rust than paint anymore, and consist of alot of homemade thread rod extensions / booms, for reduced sightline obstructions in live concert halls when doing mid-room recordings.

thanks again for your input and insight.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

My .02¢, in reply to the originally posted question, is, to look into a Jecklin Disc, and the OSS technique of baffled omni's. Or, an arrangement around a Blumlein pair.
Will you be recording a natural acoustic signal, or, an amplified pa signal?

trying image attachment:

It worked!
This is Hossein Omoumi, and my dpa 4060 omnis with an 8" homemade j-disc baffle, utilizing a quasi-OSS variation.
The mics are to the far stage-right of the sound field, to gain some distance away from the tombak and daf, which still maintained plenty of presence.
The baffle adds a nice directionality to the omni's, which still maintained plenty of contact with the audience, for room ambience.

more pics, since the first one worked.....