Hi anitract, welcome to RO! Thank you for writing a perfectly well planned and presented question; this is a rarity from people who are starting out.

For this response, I assumed that you already have an audio recording program. If you don;t, you can always use the free and totally decent program Audacity. I also assumed that you don;t want to become a full blown recording engineer; rather, you just want to record some songs.

My opinion is that you should spend as little as possible on the audio interface and preamp and as much as possible on the microphone. The microphone is next in line, after source and room acoustics, in the heirarchy of sound quality. Since you need to keep the cost down in the interface/preamp department, I believe you should combine these two things into one device. There's ony one good choice here that keeps things simple, cheap, and respectably high quality - the [url=http://www.m-audio… Mobile Pre USB[/url]. $150 and your interface and pres are taken care of. I don't think you can get away any cheaper.

OK, so we have $350 to spen on mics. What? No cables, stands, etc? Fine. $300. Now this is the hard part. There's no inexpensive mic I know of that will record both vocal and acoustic guitar as well as teh Audio Technica 4033, but these (the new 4033/CL) are $400 new. Perhaps yopu could find a used original 4033 for $300 or less. The Studio Projects B1 might be able to do something remotely similar in a pinch, and they are only $100. Teh problem is that acoustic guitars like small diaphragm mics and vocals like large. Also, acoustic guitars like to be recorded in stereo ( i.e., two mics). There are a couple good cheap small diaphragm condensers out there like the Studio Projects C4, but a pair of those would put you over the budget. Also, one small diaphragm mic and one large would probably put you over the budget. You could always go REALLY cheap and buy some Behringer-like crap, but I would'nt if I were you. You will hate them and you will want to buy more mics. You know what they say, buy cheap, buy twice. If I were you, I would porobably spend the $300 on a good large diaphragm vocal condenser, use it on guitar, and save up until I can afford a pair of small diaphragm condensers.

Perhaps someone else who knows budget mics better than I do will be able to come up with another idea. Best of luck.

David,

Thanks for the quick response. I really appreciate it, as I was getting discouraged with the hundreds of choices out there. :)

For software, yea, I was actually planning on using Audacity since I have followed its development in the Open Source world for quite a while now. I have some other programs if I need to get more advanced.

A lot of the hardware you've suggested sounds good and I know I've run into it browsing the boards here. Let's see....the mic & guitar thing...well, I know I will not be using a guitar for a while, so I like your idea of a high quality vocal condenser. I think you've led me to the correct path there.

Thanks again. Anyone else please feel free to chime in.

Jason

edit: blasted type-o's!

A pair of B1's would do it ... I have one here and it sounds good on both vocals and acoustic guitar ...

Another mic I have found recently is the Kel Audio HM-1 ... it's a mini side address condenser, 5" tall and 2" wide, that sells for $100 list. The digaphram is 1/2"/ 3 micron, vapor deposited diaphragm. It's a true pressure gradient condenser with a freq. response of 30Hz-20kHz and very close to flat.

I did some vocal tracks with it next to my U87ai through 9098 pres and LA4 comps and in the mix it was hard to tell the difference. I haven't tried it on acoustic guitar yet but it is great on guitar amps, to smooth out the crackels, and it's waaayy cute .... a little five inch tall mini mic!

So those KELs are alright, huh Kurt? I'd love to hear some demos sometime.

Any reason in particular you guys are recommending pairs of mics instead of just one?

Is it because of what David mentioned about recording guitar in stereo?

Just trying not to confuse myself here... :D

Yes. Acoustic guitars and many other instruments love to be recorded in stereo. The sound is much more exciting than the typical one mic-12th fret approach. Also there's several different techniques you can do with two mics to get a large array of tones and stereo widths.

Studio Projects C1?

That make's sense...sounds like there are a lot of possibilities for 2 mics w/ instrumentation.

On an unrelated note, I've got 2 questions:

1. In terms of recording mics for vocals only (let's forget about guitar for now), how does the Studio Projects C1 Condenser mic ([[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.zzounds…"]LINK[/]="http://www.zzounds…"]LINK[/]) compare to the mentioned mics? The price is right, and I've heard good things about it...

2. While reading reviews on the M-Audio Mobile Pre USB on google last night I came accross one fellow who said that the unit doesn't work so well with condenser mics (more specifically it made his HQ mic sound like a kazoo)...I can't find the link now (of course), but is there any weight to this? I haven't read anything else on problems w/ the unit and condenser mics...

1. There are quite a few decent budget mics out there for vocals, and the C1 is definitely among them. It is a pleasantly colored mic with a nice top end. The R0DE NT1000 is also a nice mic, more on the accurate side IMO, still adds a bit of top. AT4033, 4040 are also good choices. I could go on, and others i'm sure will have some input for you, but the main issue is that there isn't one mic that will sound right on everything. What kind of vocalist will you be recording? Male? Female? Rich? Nasal? Low? High? Breathy? Strong? Let us know and perhaps we can try to predict the right mic for you. The best option is of course to audition every mic that you might buy, but that isn't always possible.

2. I have used an Omni I/O, and the pres were acceptable and gave me no problem with condenser mics. I've never used a mobile pre, but I expect it to be highly similar to the Omni I/O. I've never heard of this problem.

The vocalist is female with a pretty full range (though I would say mid- to upper-mid range is primarily used). Her vocal quality is what I would call "pure"...there is little vibrato used and no nasal or airiness to it. Tone is a pleasant light/rich sound overall.

OK, for female vocals as you describe, i'd go with Shure KSM27, R0DE NT1000, or Audio Technica AT4040. Wait for other opinions.

I recorded a female vocalist with a mid range with a rode k2 the other day with great results.
I usually record her with my RCA D77 ribbon for that rich sound but my D77 is under the wheather and the results were just as good

You can get the K2's for about $550+ on ebay
and your local GC will match a valid bid. I bough a second K2 last week from them for $550 + tx after bringing in a bid...

Max price here is about $300, though.

Rode NT1-A would be a good choice.

Narrowing it down

Thanks for all of the help guys. I feel like I have this all narrowed down to a much more managable level and am about to make my decission. If you'll humor the never-ending flow of questions for a moment, I do have a couple more to throw out there (and David, if you are following this still I would very much love to hear your input specifically):

1. Mics. Right now 3 mics appeal to me the most in the following order: the Studio Projects C1, the Shure KSM27, and the R0DE NT1000. Now, I know this is very subjective, but in terms of the female voice I mentioned I am wondering how much better the KSM27 or NT1000 would be than the C1? I ask mainly because they are ~$100 more than the C1...if the increase in quality were enough though I would def. consider a little extra.

2. Preamp/Soundcard combo. Are there any other combo units out there comparible to the M-Audio Mobile Pre USB that I should consider? I would be willing to spend a little more here as well if needed.

3. Standalone preamps. I'm curious...how much would a good standalone preamp cost?

1. IMO, none are better, just different. If you want to try and save money, perhaps you should go with the C1. Make sure you buy from a store with a good return policy so that if it's not right for your singer you can return it.

2. There are several others that are pretty nice, including the Echo Gina 3G and the M-Audio Omni Studio, but they are a bit more expensive. I don't know of anotehr product that will be as inexpensive and still give you everything you need other than the MobilePre. It seems there's a small void in the market.

3. Honestly, this is the best way to go, but it requires a good deal more cash since you will now need things like a headphone amp and possibly some kind of mixer. This route opens up a lot of options for soundcards now including some nice offerings from E-Mu and others. I am not an expert on cheap but good pres. I know some models, but I can't tell you exatcly the least ammount of money you;d need to spend to get a pre that is clearly better than the onboard res of something like the Echo 3G or whatever. Groove Tubes makes a pre called The Brick which is supposed to be quite good for $400, but it's only one channel. Perhaps a Studio Projects pre would do it, but I can't say for lack of experience. A Sytek MPX-4a will certainly do it, but that's four channels and at least $700 used. I think you shoudl get otehr opinions on this matter.

David,

Sounds like on Mics I will be okay then.

The preamp/breakoutbox stuff is the hardest part for me to determine right now. M-Audio's Mobile Pre USB still sounds like a great deal for the features it has, but I'm worried that I won't appreciate the results it gives me since the preamp is so important in the setup.

Then again, I'm not going for super mega quality....then again, I am a perfectionist by nature...

The Echo Gina 3G is something that I have my eye on (depending how much I ultimately spend on other equipment)...it's kinda hard determining whether the extra $150 it costs would be worth it in terms of sound quality though.

Daahhhh!

Jason

Remember the heirarchy of quality... source, acoustics, mic, pre, other stuff. How are your acoustics anyway?

Acoustics...I was hoping you wouldn't bring that up. haha....well, I'm looking into cheap methods of making a room "recording friendly", but haven't found any solutions I really like that look cheap enough and don't require a lot of drilling, etc.

The room I want to use for the recording is a smallish (maybe 11x12 ft.) corner room in the basement of my house. The problem though is that it has exposed white brick walls and utility carpet. So...yeah....

I guess a plus is that it is very quite in the basement...

I'd sure take any suggestions if anyone has any, of course.

Kurt Foster wrote: A pair of B1's would do it ... I have one here and it sounds good on both vocals and acoustic guitar ...

Another mic I have found recently is the Kel Audio HM-1 ... it's a mini side address condenser, 5" tall and 2" wide, that sells for $100 list. The digaphram is 1/2"/ 3 micron, vapor deposited diaphragm. It's a true pressure gradient condenser with a freq. response of 30Hz-20kHz and very close to flat.

I did some vocal tracks with it next to my U87ai through 9098 pres and LA4 comps and in the mix it was hard to tell the difference. I haven't tried it on acoustic guitar yet but it is great on guitar amps, to smooth out the crackels, and it's waaayy cute .... a little five inch tall mini mic!

Kurt....I'm enjoying this thread! Thanks to all.

In regards to your post...what's a "B1"?

And where can I find out more about this Kel Audio H1 ??

Thanks to all

Vern

Rigid fiberglass is the cheapest material for the job. You can make six cloth wrapped 2' x 4' panels with excellent absorption properties for under $50. Six would be enough to make your room sound non-ridiculous, but I would recommend 12. The material comes in packs of six, so you'd have to buy a multiple of 6. Try [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.spi-co.c…"]SPI[/]="http://www.spi-co.c…"]SPI[/] and see if they have a location near you. Anyway, the basic idea is to position these around the room to tame the reflections that cause comb filtering, flutter echo, and annoying ambience. If you like the sound of this idea, I and several others around here have all kinds of additional info for you.

anitract wrote: Acoustics...I was hoping you wouldn't bring that up. haha....well, I'm looking into cheap methods of making a room "recording friendly", but haven't found any solutions I really like that look cheap enough and don't require a lot of drilling, etc.

The room I want to use for the recording is a smallish (maybe 11x12 ft.) corner room in the basement of my house. The problem though is that it has exposed white brick walls and utility carpet. So...yeah....

I guess a plus is that it is very quite in the basement...

I'd sure take any suggestions if anyone has any, of course.

I've been watching this thread...and I find it rather interesting, as I'm in the same boat as anitract (sp?).

Question: How do you make a room more 'recording friendly'?

Vern

Really?? $50 or so?? Hummm...I could definitely live with that or even up to $100 for 12 panels. I had read about the panels in the Acoustics forum area, but now you've got my full attention.

Is there an "inventory" thread floating around with cost of materials and amounts/measurements of lumber?

David French wrote: Rigid fiberglass is the cheapest material for the job. You can make six cloth wrapped 2' x 4' panels with excellent absorption properties for under $50. Six would be enough to make your room sound non-ridiculous, but I would recommend 12. The material comes in packs of six, so you'd have to buy a multiple of 6. Try [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.spi-co.c…"]SPI[/]="http://www.spi-co.c…"]SPI[/] and see if they have a location near you. Anyway, the basic idea is to position these around the room to tame the reflections that cause comb filtering, flutter echo, and annoying ambience. If you like the sound of this idea, I and several others around here have all kinds of additional info for you.

Send me the info as well please Dave.

Appreciated

Vern

Vern,

B1 refers to a [="http://www.studioprojects.com/b1.html"]Studio Projects B1[/]="http://www.studiopr…"]Studio Projects B1[/] microphone.

You can read more about the Kel HM-1 at their [[url=http://="http://www.kelaudio…"]website[/]="http://www.kelaudio…"]website[/]

Also, have you heard of Google? ;)

Anitract,

I think you shoudl start a new thread in the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.recordin…"]Acoustics and Design[/]="http://www.recordin…"]Acoustics and Design[/] forum about the cheapest method of getting a room under basic control for vocal and acoustic guitar recording. The subject has already been covered, but I feel that a new discussion is warranted.

David,

I had planned to make a thread covering acoustics some time next week, but you just haaaaddddd to ask in here, didn't ya? ;)

Really though, I've found out a lot already by searching in the hour or so since you suggested the fiberglass. I'm pretty sure this is the route I will go.

Thanks for all of the help everyone.

Jason

David French wrote: Vern,

B1 refers to a [="http://www.studioprojects.com/b1.html"]Studio Projects B1[/]="http://www.studiopr…"]Studio Projects B1[/] microphone.

You can read more about the Kel HM-1 at their [[url=http://="http://www.kelaudio…"]website[/]="http://www.kelaudio…"]website[/]

Also, have you heard of Google? ;)

Anitract,

I think you shoudl start a new thread in the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.recordin…"]Acoustics and Design[/]="http://www.recordin…"]Acoustics and Design[/] forum about the cheapest method of getting a room under basic control for vocal and acoustic guitar recording. The subject has already been covered, but I feel that a new discussion is warranted.

Yes Dave...I know Google...
Are you trying to say, go do a search? I got it.

Vern
:roll:

Vern wrote: And where can I find out more about this Kel Audio H1 ??

Just answering your question! :lol:

:D

All right, an update for you all. Here is what we have decided so far: mic is most likely going to be a C1, and fiberglass screens are a go.

I have been looking into some standalone pre-amps a little more. The Studio Projects VTB 1 looks like a solid unit. It seems to have solid reviews and its $130 or so. Anything better I have overlooked for the price?

I also have a question or 2 about its setup. Here is a diagram of the VTB 1 w/ jacks labeled: [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.studiopr…"]LINK[/]="http://www.studiopr…"]LINK[/].

There are 3 different diagrams showing how the unit's output jacks can be used. It looks like there are 2 or maybe even 3 outputs...I am thoroughly confused by it. Can someone interpret how I would use the output jacks to 1) allow the vocalist to hear herself while singing (i.e. monitor or headphones) and at the same time 2) send the signal to a line in of my PC soundcard so I can capture the audio?

Maybe I can't even do both simultaneously with this preamp? Would I need a mixer or something of the sort?

Much thanks,
Jason

I doubt anything else in that pricerange is going be be better than a VTB1.

When you get a soundcard, it will have some type of software monitoring that will allow you to play the signal through the card as you record it and play back other tracks. Better still is monitoring through your recording app; this way, you will be able to monitor with effects like EQ and reverb. All you will need to do is connect one of the outs on the VTB1 to your soundcard's in. Looks like the VTB1 is pretty versatile too, since you can use the insert as an output, giving you a signal that hasn't been touched by the tube yet. This will be useful, since sometimes you won't want that sound of the tube (acoustic guitars, perhaps). Looks like you could even track both ways and decide which one is better when you mix.

Bottom line: I think you shoudl go for separate pre and recorded if possible. I only recommended a soundcard./pre combo becuase of money constraints. Separate units will be more flexible and probably higher quality.

Looks like the VTB 1 coupled with a E-MU 0404 would only be about $100 more than the M-Audio combo. Ahh..I feel like I am getting somewhere now. :D

Now you're cookin! That is a really nice card and a tremendous deal. Now you'll have digital and Midi I/O, and onboard effects, not to mention the nice software that comes bundled with the card. With Cubasis, you probably won't be needing Audacity, and Wavelab Lite will take care of your two track editing needs. VTB1 + E-MU0404 + Studio Projects C1 <= $450. Excellent!

I agree! I am totally floored now...as is the vocalist. This is a very acceptable $$ figure for some quality low-cost hardware. Thanks so much for helping out David and everyone else. I don't think I could have focused this quickly without you guys.

I'm sure you'll be hearing more from me as I "learn the ropes". Peace. -Jason

You're quite welcome Jason. Glad I could help. :) Also, be sure to visit the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.recordin…"]Free Plugin Links[/]="http://www.recordin…"]Free Plugin Links[/] thread. And don't forget about acoustics; without some basic treatment, all this gear won't be worth much.

For anyone interested in or following this thread, I made a continuation to talk about some room choices in the Acoustics & Design area ([[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.recordin…"]LINK[/]="http://www.recordin…"]LINK[/]).

Feel free to comment in it...any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

David,

I don't want to bother you, but do you have any thoughts on my new thread? I'm not getting any responses in the forum, and after reading and researching, I still don't feel like I have a direction as to which room to use...

Any opinion whatsoever from anyone with some experience would helpful.

Thanks

Jason

OH GOD!!! It's YOU again!!! :shock:

TOTALLY kidding! :D I love to help; that's what this site is all about. 8-)

Sure, I'll give it a shot. I just thought i'd let the acoustics mods get that one. I know a good deal about acoustics, but those guys have me beat several times over.

I bought an M-Audio Quattro a coulpa years ago for 350 bucks and soon discovered I needed a Pre-amp to go with it. This would have been another 350 to match the set. so I bought an Omega Lexcon with on board pre amps for mics and four line-ins for the other stuff. It also came with ProTracks software. I think it's around 200 dollars at Guitar Center. Haven't run across anything yet that I couldn't do with it, but that's just me.

Hahaha...well I never left so THERE. :P

Okay, moving this discussion to the new forum...thanks for responding there!

Update

A little update. I think I narrowed it down to a recording corner. Soooo...I posted yet another thread w/ a couple questions. Hopefully this one is LESS CLUTTERED and to the point: (Dead Link Removed)