ugh i am an idiot, i thought i was in the vocal section. i'm sorry

The Fuel song is doubled (possibly tripled) vocal parts.

The second song isn't any different as far as the technique used...

The chorus in the 3rd Eye Blind song is just that (chorus - not the effect), the different guys singing backups.

Think of it this way - one guitar usually sounds like the one in the break of the 3rd Eye song, add a few more, one hard left and one hard right playing roughly the same passage and it's going to sound 'full'. Nobody can sing (or play) exactly the same thing twice with the same exact timing - it's the variation in the track - for - track singing / guitar playing / etc. that does it.

Tip - record more than one take of your vocals / guitars / keys...

Re: what are some popular effects to get that big vocal soun

sarNz wrote: Maybe it's all just EQ, compression and some reverb? I can't figure it out. That's all I put on my vocals and they sound flat and boring to me. I have heard much better recordings than I can get from people with less equipment (though mine is nothing great either). Any tips appreciated.

Well, if your vocal is sounding boring to you there is something that is not right, a vocal should be exciting and alive.

Getting the right sound to make your ears happy takes more than meets the eye.

I know I started with a sure sm58 in my parents basement. At the time I had a good time with working with what I had, mostly since I only had a little bit of time once a week when they were gone to really open up and let it all out.

Sometimes doing the same thing over and over does not do it for you. I know from my own background that getting the right sound has its place.

Ya know, vocals are something very personal. All of us that have had plenty of experience with mixing and coming up with ideas have our favorite techniques.

Seems to me that many new songs use groups of tracks that fade in and out at various times. Its easy for some songs to use more than 100 tracks.

Of course to some of us thats total overkill, and not even possible, but it certainly is being done. It can be done very subtly that its a very distinct sound. It gives the main vocal sound some air in the background.

Its really hard for one to tell exactly what is going on in a mix unless your familiar with the territory.

Just remember that your first take is always usually the most important. Either you nail it or the energy is just not there.

So, here is what you can do to get some real inspiration:

Take a vocal class at your local community college, you'll get out of your environment and learn technique that will open you mind on how to get more out of your voice.

Part of learning how to sing better is learning how to warm your voice up so that you can reach those parts you want without losing the energy and expression you got in your head.

Anyway, there's my two pennies worth.
8)

Thanks for the comments guys, I appreciate it. To be honest, other than harmonies, I have NEVER tried doubling or tripling my vocal track. Maybe I should try it! I have done this for guitar tracks, but for some reason I still can't get the forwardness that I hear in so many songs, even with 4-6 guitar tracks.

I just imported the Fuel song into Audition to compare it to one of my mixdowns. Nearly everything after it gets big is maxed to the top in the Fuel song, it sounds BIG and LOUD. Maybe that's part of the reason I'm not happy with my mixes?

Also watching the frequency analysis, it seems that when only the guitar is playing, the frequency is rolled off at 16k hz. But then the vocals come on and you can see the chart go up to 18k hz. Is this how they separate the vocals from the rest of the song?

jammster - I'm like you, I have to wait till my house is empty before I record vocals haha, but when they are gone, all hell breaks loose. I close all the windows to make sure the neighbors don't hear me lol. I definitely do need to sing better, but the part that sounds boring to me is the recording, not necessarily the performance. Like I listen to a real mix, and then my mix, and ask questions. Why does their track sound more full? How does it stand out so well from the mix but you can still hear all the guitars so well? This guy can't sing in real life, did they use a pitch corrector on his voice?

Maybe I'm being foolish to think I can get a near professional sound out of my NT2-A, 57 / 58 and firepod. But from what I see around here, it's my mixing skills that are the problem!

Thanks again, and I will experiment.

Nearly everything after it gets big is maxed to the top in the Fuel song, it sounds BIG and LOUD.

That's because everything now is brickwalled to the max.

Frequencies in the upper limit you're talking about (16k - 18k and beyond) are at the point where they're almost out of your hearing range, if not completely. Has nothing to do with separating the vox.

you need to look up the freq ranges of different instruments.

Then, learn where the complementary freq's are versus those that are going to overlap and 'cover up' the range of the instrument you want to mix in (i.e. those in your vox) and try mixing with that in mind.

We've discussed this at length numerous times here, try a search on frequencies...

Try doubling your tracks. You'll notice a difference. It may seem a bit weird to you to hear your voice 2 or 3 times on a track though. Takes some time to get used to it.

Google [[url=http://[/URL]="http://lmgtfy.com/?…"]ADT (Automatic Double Tracking) [/]="http://lmgtfy.com/?…"]ADT (Automatic Double Tracking) [/]for more on doubling vox...

Thats pretty funny bent.

bent - how do they get everything to 'brickwall' without the mix sounding distorted? i found this on the issue of frequency theory:

http://www.homerecordingconnection.com/news.php?action=view_story&id=154

WOW i never thought about it being so straightforward! Just make the puzzle pieces fit.

i also read about the ADT on wiki. Very cool how the nature of analog allowed it to create an inexact copy whereas you can't do it on digital. It was also fun reading how they came up with the flanger name.

I'm done school after this semester and reckon I'll have a bit of time to practice more recording and vocals then. I have been experimenting a lot with direct in guitar, I think I like it quite a bit!

bent wrote: Google [[url=http://[/URL]="http://lmgtfy.com/?…"]ADT (Automatic Double Tracking) [/]="http://lmgtfy.com/?…"]ADT (Automatic Double Tracking) [/]for more on doubling vox...

Same track, doubled, with a slight delay... isn't that the formula for comb filtering?

hello,

I am completely new to recording and am just starting to experiment with Audacity. Does anyone have any advice on doing the doubling or tripling of vocal tracks on this program or just in general? Since it is practically impossible to sing or play the same part in exactly the same way twice, I am trying to figure out how one would go about doing this without copying the same identical performance track and playing those together since this wouldn't change anything at all. This is what "doubletracking" is right? A walk-through on the steps for doing this would be great....

lyrical99 wrote: Since it is practically impossible to sing or play the same part in exactly the same way twice, I am trying to figure out how one would go about doing this without copying the same identical performance track and playing those together since this wouldn't change anything at all. This is what "doubletracking" is right? A walk-through on the steps for doing this would be great....

Yes Lyrical,

First of all, don't copy your parts for double tracking.

Double tracking is done to get the effect of adding another part to what you already have.

Now the level of the additional part can be soft, or can be panned differently with another "doubled" vocal, its really up to your judgement.

Yes, it is true that the performace will never be the same, and simply copying the track data and delaying it will only produce a delay type effect, flange, phase, ect... you get the idea.

I would say the most important thing about recording the vocal is to get a good take. If the energy is there it will help to bring out the best in the takes to come.

So when your double, triple, quadruple, ect.. tracking its more important to get the emotional energy into the take, don't worry so much about being exactly the same, unless that is the effect your aiming for.

Also, try mixing the tracks at different volumes. I tend to like the sound of doubled tracks lightly in the background, mainly because raising the volume can bring out the differences to the surface of the mix.

Yes, you guys are on it!

Now go record and post some samples!

8-)

hmm good point about mixing the tracks at different volumes...

So what you're saying is that when people double or triple the same vocals the point is to get almost a "chorus" effect?

Good point about recording at different volumes...I'll have to try that.

So what you're saying is that when recording double or triple tracks of the same vocals the idea is that it will produce a "chorus" type of effect?

oops sorry didn't mean to do that twice...my computer is being weird

one key point for recording vocals, or.. big commercial-sounding vocals, anyway, is proper gain structure... and that does not mean cranking everything up.... i don't like doubling vocals as much anymore, i like to use a well sculpted and tonally diverse set of background vocals that i group or bus to a channel and add some cohesive processors and effects, automate to taste, then slide under the lead vocal and automate again to add excitement and emphasis on certain phrases.

lyrical99, post: 293500 wrote: Good point about recording at different volumes...I'll have to try that.

So what you're saying is that when recording double or triple tracks of the same vocals the idea is that it will produce a "chorus" type of effect?

Your not exactly recording at different volumes as much as mixing at different volumes. Doubling can add a chorus effect if that is what you want. Generally the idea is to enhance harmonic content. Subtlety is louder than blatancy.

sarNz, post: 292802 wrote: Thanks for the comments guys, I appreciate it. To be honest, other than harmonies, I have NEVER tried doubling or tripling my vocal track. Maybe I should try it! I have done this for guitar tracks, but for some reason I still can't get the forwardness that I hear in so many songs, even with 4-6 guitar tracks.

You're gonna have trouble if you want a track with 4-6 simultaneous guitars to be forward. Doubling is good for the punch, the stereo spread, and if your guitarist is a blaze at playing you can probablyget it sounding more forward, but the reasons for the above effects, (bigness and such) are the minute timing and tuning differences in each performance. And all these differences add up, and muddy the mix.

Doubling vocals can be very effective, especially pulling the doubled track in and out of the mix during the song, to give the vocal some depth in the important parts like the chorus etc.

If youre having trouble doubling, try something like an incredibly short stereo delay that isnt exactly linear. Digidesigns Short Delay II works very well and can give you an impression of the doubling Thickening of the vocal track.

When it comes to EQ. Make sure your vocal sounds good on the way in, EQ a bit if needed and then EQ it in the mix context, with all the other main instruments playing. Th 18Khz you metioned sounds like something I might do where some top is being pulled in from the guitars and such to make a little room in the midrange for the vocals. Vocals should be airy as well, as it captures some of the natural breath in your voice.

Main thing, play around :)

wow, this thread kind of blew up while i was away! thanks for all the comments, i will definitely make use of them.

so robin, what you're saying is it is not a great idea to have a bunch of stuff going at once, right?

right now in this song, at the part where it is supposed to be 'big' i have:

clean chords left
acoustic chords right
distorted power chords left and right
distorted full chords left and right

is this a bad idea? should i knock it down to 2 (maybe doubled) of the distorted power chords and leave it at that? it's so hard to telllll. how many guitar tracks will you usually have going at once?

sarNz, post: 292802 wrote: Thanks for the comments guys, I appreciate it. To be honest, other than harmonies, I have NEVER tried doubling or tripling my vocal track. Maybe I should try it! I have done this for guitar tracks, but for some reason I still can't get the forwardness that I hear in so many songs, even with 4-6 guitar tracks.

I just imported the Fuel song into Audition to compare it to one of my mixdowns. Nearly everything after it gets big is maxed to the top in the Fuel song, it sounds BIG and LOUD. Maybe that's part of the reason I'm not happy with my mixes?

I have one trick for you and if you try it, you will be glad you did. Go to [[url=http://[/URL]="http://digitalfishp…"]digitalfishphones.com - free audio effects plugins[/]="http://digitalfishp…"]digitalfishphones.com - free audio effects plugins[/] and download endorphin. Place this plug on your master bus and set it to the preset "Loud and Punchy" and then turn your speakers down a bit and hit play. You will have a rather large smile come across your face.

performance

Good performer and a good performance is 60% of the puzzle. Add some live doubling in multiple takes. A little panning, for depth and a smich of reverb. The natural live re-performance of singing the vocals multiple times will naturally add the delay, combing, chorus and harmonies. Then capture this into the best mic you can get your hands on.

sarNz, post: 344543 wrote:
right now in this song, at the part where it is supposed to be 'big' i have:

clean chords left
acoustic chords right
distorted power chords left and right
distorted full chords left and right

is this a bad idea? should i knock it down to 2 (maybe doubled) of the distorted power chords and leave it at that? it's so hard to telllll. how many guitar tracks will you usually have going at once?

This can work. You should definitely make sure that everything isnt panned har right hard left, but play around. Make sure also that you eq a bit. The full distorted chords for example. I can imagine that they are going to be VERY rich on the midrange frequencies. I suggest dipping the mids and going for some top. THe nice thing about the human brain is that it compensates for the fundamental tone based on overtones, and with all the other guitars playing at the same time you wont loose anything, just hear more of the other stuff.

In the end it really comes down to positioning and EQ. Even if something sounds awesome alone it does not mean that it will sound good in context. you should always have an ear out for parts that are fighting with each other, since this will pull down the clarity and punch of the mix and make it less in your face.

I don't think anyone has mentioned this, so I'm gonna say doubling at a different octave. Mess around with the volumes and see if you want one a bit quieter than the other. I usually make the lower octave quieter because it's not as strong of a voice being that low. If both are a lot closer to my best range, I might let the lower octave stand out more.

Wow! These techniques sound great! My vocals have sounded pretty dull, but I'm gonna try this doubling effect and see if that gives it that full-sounding effect that I'm looking for.

This is what i do sometimes.
1.-Copy your vocal track twice
2.-Detune one vocal +12cents and the other -12cents (with some pitch shifter you have available)
3.-Pan them hard left and hard right
4.-Group the detune vocals on an aux channel.
5.-Insert a delay on the aux channel... set the time around 25-35ms... and 0% feedback
6.-Mix to taste with your original vocal

It would give you kinda of a chorus effect, and will make your vocal spread... and have a big sound. Then you can add some reverb to taste and you can also do some parallel compression to have dynamics/compressed vocals. And then you can double track the vocal... just experiment with stuff and have fun.

Cheers

Even with weak singers I've never had any problems with getting vocals "up front" enough.
Try using a large diaphragm studio condenser and forget the out dated old hat 58 (which in my humble opinion is VERY over rated) and practice your mic technique ! Use the least compression as possible and make sure your gain structure is optimal.

Everything else is in the way you mix the other tracks !!!!
Get the vocal levels right and bring everything else up to compliment them.
Don't "get the music right" and then struggle to find room for the most important bit !

Your vocals are not important they are critical if you want to get your emotions across to the listener. Sometimes it is too easy to get caught up with processing everything to death when sometimes the most basic methods are the most effective.

It wont matter how much fiddling you do if the basic track isnt recorded well and has a great performance attached to it. Earlier someone mentioned gain staging and this is the key to getting a vocal track that has audible emotional content to it. A great mic, coupled with a great chain will certainly aid in this. A great room will seal the deal. Do all of your tracks at home and when its time to get that keeper vocal spend a few ducats and go to a studio with a nice mic, pre, and compressor selection. Get the room as comfy as you can and put your heart and soul into what you're trying to convey.

This will always trump a vague uncertain approach no matter how many tracks are doubled, times are changed, and effects added to the track. SM58 or a Brauner , the emotions are what you need to capture to make it great.

honestly

In my opinion doubling sounds like complete garbage. If you experiment with the right compression and eq, you can have yourself that "big sound".

dannymorreale, post: 366566 wrote: In my opinion doubling sounds like complete garbage. If you experiment with the right compression and eq, you can have yourself that "big sound".

that is too broad a statement to make and with that advice you could have some poor soul spinning his wheels for hours of futility. you mean to tell me that a vocal take in a bedroom with a 58 into a so so pre and conveter is going to sound really big with eq and compresion? if that was the case we could all throw out our ldcs and good preamps and record in our garage.

doubling adds an extra batch of different harmonics to the existing track. how can you do that with eq and compression??

it depends on the song. for the kind of music he mentioned, doubling the lead vocal is what's doing it. that and different eq on each vocal track. i think this all started to take hold in pop music when nirvana's 1st record came out. his main vocals are doubled all over that album. that's not eq and compression. and i think it sold a few copies.

obviously doubling a lead vocal for a song that is just vocal and acoustic guitar, for example, will sound crappy.

Jim Morrison doubled almost all his vocals

i have just had some bad experiences with doubling, ill just have to do more experimenting with it.

Doubling is a technique unto itself. The singer has to learn how to do it as well as the engineer. If the singer can't get it matched up, then it just sounds extra sloppy.

Little imperfections are no problem - that's what makes it "doubling", but most singers aren't all that precise with what they sing, and this becomes evident when they try to double.

All it really takes is practice. A well-rehearsed singer will usually sing it the same way twice within acceptable parameters.

Notice the variable quality in John Lennon's doubling. Early in his career it was marginally acceptable, but later some of his physical doubling bordered on sounding like it was electronically doubled it was so tight. (Yes, he did use some electronic doubling also.)

For a female vocalist, I've used a Beyer M88 handheld (recorded into one channel) and a Rode NTK condenser 12 inches away from mouth at a 45 degree angle (into a second channel). These were panned L-R (hard). The combination pulled the vocal forward in the mix. Both channels alone sounded ordinary, but the combination (perhaps the variations in phase with distance from both mics as the vocalist moved) seemed to bring the recording to life (on some pretty mundane apparatus).

Vocal Special Effects

I hope I am in the correct forum :-)

I am interested in hearing from people what types of special effects they use on vocals to add drama and how they go about doing it. Not just the megaphone thing, but other ideas that add spice to the recording.

Thanks,
Craig