I'm one of the "in it for the money" people or, a professional if you will.

Using a DAW allows you to keep multiple takes and comp as needed (although I would rather not as I like continuous performances from the energy/artistic point of view). Punching in (at least on PT) is completely error proof; late or early punches can be fixed and no there is loss of the original track. You can setup and keep unlimited mixes and recall them at a moments notice. Backup is easy and relatively painless. I do miss the fun and excitment of "performing" a mix on an analog console, which went hand in hand with having to get that great performance to tape with few or no punches. It's just a whole different world than it was 20 years ago.

If you are in it for the money the magic word is Pro Tools with the average guy/gal looking to buy studio time. If your clientele is big names they don't really care as long as they can work efficiently and get the sound that they want. Being a Pro Tools engineer has definately gotten me a lot more work.

Peace,

Uncle Bob

:p:

Thanks Uncle Bob...this is the crux of what I'm getting at....some anecdotal asides are always welcome and perhaps also the reason you switched(if this is the case).....Okay! We should make 100 posts here..no prob :c:

(the 100th poster gets to come to my house where I'll buy em some of that great northwest micro-brew!!!)

Hey Dave,

IMHO, for the money a PTLE 001/002 rig is an affordable investment just for the fairly simple interface, software w/fairly good midi. If you are tape based you can fly the tracks into PT to preserve the "Tape" sound etc, and fly it back to tape after editing.

As far as a return goes the name has a built in promotional base because of it's tenure in the business. If you decide to open to the public it is a "good sell", especially if you learn the program well.

Best wishes,

JD( o}===;;;

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.nowherer…"]Some guitar stuff. :D [/]="http://www.nowherer…"]Some guitar stuff. :D [/]

Howdy

I use Logic professionally...a strictly "economic" distinction, but professionally nevertheless.

I use it because I originally needed hardcore, MIDI-geek sequencing capabilities. The audio integration, to me, was pretty much seemless and one can do many of the same things to both audio and MIDI.

Logic works for me because I use it for basically every paying job I have. From doing Ringtones to manufacturer content creation to recording...I end up using it pretty much all day, every day. As a consequence, I'm quite familiar with its operation.

Now, I'm in the position of being able to make capital equipment investments. At the top of the list is Pro Tools which would probably recoup its investment rather quickly, especially here in LA. The upside is, I can run PT hardware with Logic so I don't _have to_ learn PT software although I suppose it would behoove me to do so.

Pro Tools brings you money because its a standard. When you're losing enough business to pay for a Pro Tools rig, it might be a good consideration to get one. However, like all things audio, its simply a tool...knowing how to use it is vital to one's livelyhood.

A close second is a Radar system which I'm seeing more and more of. With Radar, you're also looking at getting a proper "desk" and that's not an insignificant prospect.

I'd much rather pour that money into good front-end stuff that will always be of value. Let's not forget the supporting infrastructure like good road cases, wiring and patchbays. However, that won't "pay off" as quickly as a PT rig...at least, I don't think it will.

For my own writing, I'd love to get a 1", 8-track machine. I feel more creative without having endless tracks, cycling overdubs, etc. One of the worst things for an artist to experience with a DAW is endlessly cycling tracks while in solo. Every out of time ("feel") nuance is magnified, every slight pitch variation ("soul") scrutinized...odd that the advantage of random access is actually, in my opinion, a detriment.

Let's roll tape and do the damn thing!

Well I'm one who's not in it for the money. I guess I'm "beta testing" my setup for the moment. I currently work from a native setup that recently has performed somewhat flawlessly since I upgraded the hardware earlier this year. I would'nt mind owning a pro-tools (TDM) setup though , but at the rate these native hardware & software setups are progressing , I would'nt be surprised if native will be the thing of the future. There's talk about Intel rolling out the next generation of its flagship processor sometime in the very near future. But like anything else , it's just talk for now. Also I currently use Cubase SX ver 1.06. I like SX because of it's layout , the ability to route and bus your tracks which is very important and similar to an analog mixer. When everthing is working & stable , then I'll look forward to being open for business. :D

Thanx fer da responses so far...Lets hear from everyone on this subject.I put this up not just for my decision making process, but for everyone to get to know each other a bit better!

Nate...I know where theres a nice old 1" 8track for sale....Otari 7308(?) needs minor regular adjustments.....1K....I LOVE those machines!Also theres a Sony 1/2 track with center time track...digital readouts and in very nice condition.....

I'm a Cubase fanatic. Not that the other programs are bad but i never checked them out. I'm in it for the money. Although i'm not making music. I make samples. And Cubase does a great job in that role. I only need it to run VSTi's and to do some mastering (not intending to open up a can of mastering worms here ;) )

Originally posted by Davedog:
Hey Kids!This was going to be a poll but thy're no fun so we'll do it this way.I've been on the edge of acquiring a computer set-up for some time now.I cant quite bring myself to do it.I basically hate computers so its been a stumbling block for me.

Here you said you were "on the edge" of purchasing.

JD( o}===;;;
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.nowherer…"]Some guitar stuff. :D [/]="http://www.nowherer…"]Some guitar stuff. :D [/]

JD...thanx for the reminder :roll: ...I just wanted this thread to roll with its own merits rather than as a personal suggestion box for me...and yes I would like to get into the computer without my usual 32oz hammer.... :eek:
and maybe through the opinions of our great wealth of talented members I will find something in it to motivate me in that direction.... :s:

I´ve done the change from tape to adats to DAW and if you ask me it´s a very smooth and efficient way to work. Just remember: you don´t have to record a million takes and have options for everything and correct every little faulty nuance (soul) only because it can be done. Consider it a taperecorder without tape with pretty impressive editing and other possibilities.

My opinion about ProTools is that it´s extremely overpriced. It´s a nice, solid platform but... the hardware is far from astonishing (HD a step in the right direction though), it´s not trouble-free and, after all, one dsp-card doesn´t possess $4.000 of computing power... BTW, Anyone looked at the similarities between the digidesign HD192-interface and the Motu 192-interface ? You get almost 3 Motu interfaces for the price of one digi, and inside...it´s the same converters (please correct me if I´m wrong, this I´ve been told). Anyway, no matter which rumour is true or not, I think you get a lot more bang for the buck with a native system with, say, a couple of Motu 192 interfaces, a G5 Mac, Logic or other software of choice, UAD-1 and TC powercore poweredplug-insand some other goodies for the price of a far from complete PT-rig. The brand digidesign is the Mercedes-Benz of DAW, they could make a crappy system and people would still shop for it like crazy. Because of the brand. And it´s priced like a Benz aswell. I think you can´t charge "Benz-prices" for DSP-power that basically doubles for half the price every six months. Makes no sense. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by Davedog:
Thanx fer da responses so far...Lets hear from everyone on this subject.I put this up not just for my decision making process, but for everyone to get to know each other a bit better!

Nate...I know where theres a nice old 1" 8track for sale....Otari 7308(?) needs minor regular adjustments.....1K....I LOVE those machines!Also theres a Sony 1/2 track with center time track...digital readouts and in very nice condition.....

I used to have an MX5050 "back in the day". Not the greatest deck but it was what I had. That and an old Yamaha RM1608 mixer...it was kinda hip. Mixed down to a Sony PCM converter that stored mixed on VHS! I thought I was cool as the other side of the pillow!

I like the idea of the 1/2 track w/ time code. Wasn't there an Ampex deck like that? ATR-104?

Originally posted by Marcus Black:
I´ve done the change from tape to adats to DAW and if you ask me it´s a very smooth and efficient way to work. Just remember: you don´t have to record a million takes and have options for everything and correct every little faulty nuance (soul) only because it can be done. Consider it a taperecorder without tape with pretty impressive editing and other possibilities.

My opinion about ProTools is that it´s extremely overpriced. It´s a nice, solid platform but... the hardware is far from astonishing (HD a step in the right direction though), it´s not trouble-free and, after all, one dsp-card doesn´t possess $4.000 of computing power... BTW, Anyone looked at the similarities between the digidesign HD192-interface and the Motu 192-interface ? You get almost 3 Motu interfaces for the price of one digi, and inside...it´s the same converters (please correct me if I´m wrong, this I´ve been told). Anyway, no matter which rumour is true or not, I think you get a lot more bang for the buck with a native system with, say, a couple of Motu 192 interfaces, a G5 Mac, Logic or other software of choice, UAD-1 and TC powercore poweredplug-insand some other goodies for the price of a far from complete PT-rig. The brand digidesign is the Mercedes-Benz of DAW, they could make a crappy system and people would still shop for it like crazy. Because of the brand. And it´s priced like a Benz aswell. I think you can´t charge "Benz-prices" for DSP-power that basically doubles for half the price every six months. Makes no sense. Just my opinion.

Marcus, I totally agree with all the philosophical statements. Its just that out here (Southern California) one can get a lot more work with PT than MOTU. Plus, PT opens the doors for "better" work...at least, this is my perception. I bet RM has a better grasp on this than I. I wonder what he typically works with as a storage medium.

Man, where's my wire recorder? Heh...

So far this year the score on sessions is:
Analog 2" = once
Pro Tools = everyone
Digital performer = once
Logic = 2
that's how the sessions I've been on in LA have gone. Oh and all of the above (including the other daws sessions) also had PT on them. So, this year in LA [for me] PT = 100%

Pro Tools....aaahh, the most pronounced word in the audio community nowdays :)

I have yet to jump on to PT and am still using good old Cubase/VST for my DAW needs, which for the most part is just for editing. Cubase was the first program I ever used back when it was just a sequencer.

Although I feel forced to comply with PT just so I fit in, I have also noted that PT has become the standard way for users to share a complete multitrack project with one another more than it has become the only way to do music production.

I constantly hear and read about engineers who are not satisfied with the plugs, or the tracking/mixing interface, or even more importantly the sound of the busing and/or how the 2-bus mixed output degrades the sound so they are preferring to use the big, flexable, great sounding analog mixers. A digital console assuming for the moment, that can sound as good as an analog console, and yet have all the faders, knobs, interface flexability, routing and digital automation is likely to cost about 10X the price.

And while it is a cheaper as well as a nice and clean concept to mix all in the box, it just plain fricken SUCKS overall! The little you lose going out digital back to analog to mix and then back to digital as a completed mixed project is not as much as you seem to be able to gain by the benifit of an analog console. First off, you already have it avaialble and just sitting there. And you still need it for it's multichannel recording capability while tracking. Second, the sound of a good analog console can be as much a part of the overall tone and texture of the music as using any outboard gear. Thirdly, it is way more flexable to easily interface outboard gear. Lastly, it is just way easier and more intuitive to use as you already know it well in getting something done as well as getting it done quickly which is often overlooked.

So I guess my point is that I resent being forced into accepting PT or least having to have PT compability, and being forced to do it all in the box because Digi doesn't place a very high value on analog, yet alone on analog interfacing or the use of superior analog tools.

I'll leave it at that as most of you probably don't want to hear how I really feel...

For some of us non-pro's doing our own music there are so many advantages to working in a DAW.

...like doing as many takes as it takes to get it right, without worrying about running out of tracks.

...like not worrying about accidently erasing something critical when doing punch-ins.

...like the fact that the worst thing can happen is your computer will freeze up, in which case you simply reboot. (no more eaten tapes)

...like being able to track stuff like drums and piano in a "real" studio and then taking everything home on a hard drive and doing your own vocals "off the clock".

...like being able to edit a "perfect" take from pieces of alternate takes as easily as cutting and pasting in a word processing program. (no more razor blades).

...like being able to load your project onto a laptop and being able to work anywhere.

...and a whole lot more things I'm sure I'm forgetting!

And the tradeoff is it probably won't sound as good as a 2" machine with all analog processing.

For some of us, though, that's not really an option anyway!

Obviously, professionals feel the need to use Pro Tools because their customers are "demanding" it.

My vote is to buy a copy of PT LE (MBox or 001 or something), then use what you want (Can you say "Nuendo"? :D ).

If your customer calls and asks if you have PT, you can say "Absolutely, come right over"!!! ;)

They will never know that you used Nuendo instead of PT...

DH

I'm forced to agree with the others about Pro Tools being the way to market yourself. But I cannot agree with those who've said that analog is 'superior' to digital. Most of the problems I hear stem from over-processing the signal. I'm convinced that the primary reason that people hear a sujective difference between mixing in the digital and analog realms, is the sheer amount processing that one is tempted to use when one does not have to pay for expensive hardware.

The last six CD projects that I've both tracked and mixed, have averaged less than 6db of total eq on each project. All of these were tracked, mixed and mastered completely in the digital realm and all were a minimum of 24 tracks. Also, I used compression very sparingly, and only three plugin's for reverb. Absolutely nothing else!

DT

DT

In my opinion a studio should rest on it's own merits not on the software it uses. Folks should want to record in your studio because of your reputation for getting great recordings. Of course there will always be producers looking for a certain console, outboard gear, and perhaps familar software but I think you get my drift here. I'm been constantly busy making money in my studio and I've NEVER had anyone insist that I use Protools. If you've been in the business a while and you know without a doubt that a pro tools rig will bring you income and pay for itself in your enviroment then that's a different story. For most folks they'll be working a long time just to reach their break even point. I personally believe that Pro Tools days are numbered and that native is the future. Good quality outboard gear may still be around 10 or 20 years if I can trust my hazy crystal ball. Tape or DAW whatever works. I've got both and for some music digital is better than tape. Systems like the RADAR are showing folks just how good digital can sound. Excellent converters can make all the difference in the world.

John makes all good points. But it all depends what kind of niche you are trying to carve out for yourself.

While there will be always be a place for all-analog studios with great gear, not all of us can afford them. Part of the democratization of the recording process is that there are ways to make good recordings on a minimal budget that didn't exist in the past.

One common way for money-challenged artists (like me!) is to have a small recording rig at home to do some of their overdubs,editing, etc. cutting down on the time being logged in "real" studios.

I know I'm far from being alone in doing this. So when I ask if a studio I want to use is Pro Tools compatible, it isn't just idle chatter. Multi-studio projects are a fact of life. (I'veheard there are ways of importing in and out of Pro Tools from some other systems like Digital Performer, but I don't really know much about it, and how much more complicated that makes things.)

Only you can judge if attracting business like mine would be worth the investment, or whether you can do just fine tapping into other segments of the market instead.

This is a great topic, and everyone puts in great values and opinions, so I’d like to add mine:

1. I like the way tape sound.
2. I would surely like digital sound if I could afford to buy a system that's equivalent to that of tape...

Tape has jammed on me three times in 26 years. My computer has freezed up and accidentally trashed my audiofiles at least 500+ times in 9 years. :D

UP

Hey Doublehelix,

When people want to work in Pro Tools they want the TDM system. One of the studios I used to work at advertised Pro Tools when all they had was the Digi 001. They lost business when people found out that the "Pro Tools" system was only the LE version, and got a reputation for over hype. Word gets around fast in the recording community. That studio is no longer in business. Fortunately, most of my clients followed me to one of the other studios where I freelance.

I use the Digi 002 in my personal studio and let people know that up front. Since I am getting into the sound for picture post production game (sound design) this has not yet been a problem as I just need to clean up dialog tracks, do some ADR and VO work, create and spot Sound FX, and slice and dice the music on small independant projects. Once my work is done I can export OMFI and send it back to the editor. On occasion I take my work to a larger PT facility for integration if there is the budget for it and the mix goes beyond the 32 tracks my LE system is capable of.

THIS IS WHAT PRO TOOLS WAS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED TO DO. It caught on with the music production community because of the editing flexability it brought to music production. Digidesign is now owned by Avid (for those of you who didn't know), one of the big names in digital picture editing. The intercompatabilty is entirely seamless, and most of the projects on which I have worked have been done on Avid systems.

Other DAW systems got into the game because Pro Tools was there and gaining in popularity. This isn't to say that just because it was first it's the best, but it has a large share of the market and the name recognition, not to mention very solid manufacturer support.

Well, enough rambling, my session is here (late as usual) and I've got to get to work.

Peace to all,

Uncle Bob

:p:

Hey Uncle Bob

Are you working on a Mac or PC platform? And since you are working in the audio/video post field (one that I tackled and I'd like to dig deeper into) do you use the DV Toolkit also from Digi? If so, is it working as far as file excange compatibility?

Thanx

L.G.

I'm on a Mac 733mhz, 768megs, two internal drives, 20 & 80gig, two Glyph Companion 80gig firewire drives. It is stripped of everything that is not needed for digital audio. I will have to start all over again as OSX, PT 6.1 and DV Toolkit go into the system this weekend, as well as a Canopus DV interface and a TV. The work arounds in the meantime have been a pain in the arse but when you don't have the money you don't have a choice.

I have done some post work on TDM systems (but lots of music; overdubs, editing, mixing. I somehow got a rep for "get it to Uncle Bob, he can fix it") and it is so fast and painless. I especially like the HD3/Pro Control system.

Just got my first film for "real" money (hence the upgrade to the studio). It's a horror/dark comedy vampire film. I get to create the sound of a vampire dissolving after being doused with holy water. Hmmmm.... Sizzling bacon and some real goopey sounds? Mix in a few backwards/slowed down monkey screams? I finally get to have some FUN! :D Not just cleaning dialog and spotting a few basic effects and slicing & dicing the music.

What are you up to? Maybe we should shift this the the Video/Film Forum.

Peace,

Uncle Bob

:p:

Originally posted by mixopenta:

Tape has jammed on me three times in 26 years. My computer has freezed up and accidentally trashed my audiofiles at least 500+ times in 9 years. ;)

I really can't count the number of times I accidentally erased a track or missed a punch-in/out, but the same goes for accidentally deleting tracks on the daw.

I would never discourage anyone from using tape, and I'm sure you get great sounds.

But just to clarify, since you didn't say what digital system you were using:

In Pro Tools a system freezeup will not trash or erase any of your audio files, with the possible exception of the specific ones you are actively recording at the moment of the freeze. Even in a worst case scenario where your session file becomes hopelessly corrupted, all the actual audio files still reside happily on your hard drive. Since they are time stamped, it is not impossible to completely rebuild your session from scratch.

Now, you could lose them if your hard drive dies, but that's why you back up religiously.

As far as accidently deleting files, it's pretty hard to do, except on purpose. Yes you can intentionally trash files, and then realize you trashed the wrong ones. But if you discover it soon enough, even then, data recovery software can often get them back. Or, once again, you can get them from your back-up.

Once you make the wrong punch on tape, however, you have only one option: re-record the track.

And as a side note, while digital tape (like ADATS) may not be what you are talking about when you say "tape", it would be worth noting that in that format the average person will definitely get more than three damaged tapes in 26 years.

All that said... I still wouldn't kick a nice hunky 2"machine out of bed! ;)

weird!

First I get a message saying I can't post because of "flood control", so I wait and try again, only to find I've double posted!

This happen to anyone else?

Yes, it maybe is overpriced, but people leasing a $ 200K console and Studer A820 tape deck in the analog days never complained about the cost, so why should we do it today? Maybe because we've grown to belive that digital technology doesn't have a cost? Think about all of the R&D and people employed to develop a PT rig (SW & HW); people just want to get a run of the mill PC, fill it with cracked software and call it a "pro" system; well to me that's the reason of the price of Digidesign hardware; they've build a legacy because they've been one of the first to write an audio app that actually worked, and that has grown to a widely accepted standard, get over it, it's here and it's good.

well put PT is the standard end of point. and what ypu can do on it for a $20,000 investment you couldnt't do with $200,000 15 years ago

use ProTools FREE!

then sneak in a little logic action behind the scenes!

Originally posted by kieran kelly:
Yes, it maybe is overpriced, but people leasing a $ 200K console and Studer A820 tape deck in the analog days never complained about the cost, so why should we do it today?

No! As a guy who leased to own both a Neotek and a Studer I bitched quite frequently about the initial cost and if I would ever really recoup it, yet alone make any profit from it. But 16-years ago you had to have at least that level to be a serious player. Everyone I know that jumped on protools from the very first to the pre HD mix system, went through the digi growing pains and was forced into upgrades that in the end cost them as much or more than the Neotek/Studer I bought which to this day, is still in service giving the same great sound as it did 16-years ago and is often used when clients bring in their own PT rigs for mixing. Those are some of the same guys that traded in or sold their old PT hardware for a loss and spent again to upgrade. 5-years from now the Neotek/Studer will very likely still be in service. What is the chance that PT HD will still be available yet alone in use?

Originally posted by Audiogaff:

. 5-years from now the Neotek/Studer will very likely still be in service. What is the chance that PT HD will still be available yet alone in use?

Yes, maybe if you put in a healty amount of servicing: I used to work as an assistant in a studio that had both analog and digital gear (Trident Vector 432 desk, Otari MTR90, loads of outboard, Tascam DA88 tape decks...): well..if you wanted to get any reasonable sound and consistency out of the analog gear you had to have people keep it in top shape every day, and by that I mean that almost daily a tech would handle the tuning of the tape machine, and would take out a mixer's module to check it and clean it so that no noises, crackles or malfunctioning of sliders, switches and pots would happen; when he was arrived at the end of the board (48 channels) he started back from the top, over and over...doesn't this have an additional cost? How much is the cost of a 2" reel of tape for 30 minutes of music compared to HD costs? How long can a tape head last before it needs relapping or replacing?

Analog surely has its great sound (subjectively), but it surely has its high price, othrewise everybody could afford it and would want to keep working with it.

So in the end, I'm not shredding analog, but please don't shred Pro Tools just because you say it's expensive, this is the least valid of the reasons.

P.S. : the statement about price posted above (the one with the 200K leasing statement) was originally mine :roll:

L.G.

So in the end, I'm not shredding analog, but please don't shred Pro Tools just because you say it's expensive, this is the least valid of the reasons.

I shred PT not just for the cost, although that is as good a reason as any, but mainly because it has a short lifespan when it comes to investing in it's technology including the host computer/OS/Plugs. What you bought yesterday is not able to be used today and still be 100% compatible. That is not true of the Neotek/Studer. And for the record, the Neotek had very little maintenance issues. And what problems it did have were able to be fairly easily repaired on per channel bassis without 100% downtime or requiring a special bench/workstation to replace parts. Neither the Neotek or Studer required any normal daily tech repair service. Sure it had to be aligned and cal'd often, but that is not so hard and can be done by someone other than a service tech. And the Studer while having a few issues as any gear that has moving parts and cal needs, is still the exact same unit as it was when new. It didn't require to be constantly replaced or upgraded like the path of the PT hardware/computer/software users did.

PT is a great tool but it is not the best or only way to do music production and it surely is not the easiest, hasslefree, troubleless, greatest sounding, pure profit making endevour that most people make it out to be.

You know, this whole "it's too expensive" (supply your own product name for 'it's') is really beginning to piss me off. I have a long list of "I want"s but I can't buy it because it's "too expensive". And this isn't just studio gear. I really want a Ferrari, but "it's too expensive". I really want a big screen TV with surround sound and all the extras but "it's too expensive". I really want to go to a Yankees game but "it's too expensive". I would like to get away for a weekend with my wife, away from the kids and all the stresses of every day life but "it's too expensive". I would like to go out too dinner, or order some take out, or even splurge on a nice piece of beef or some fish to cook at home but "it's too expensive".

We are talking about being in a business here. If you want to be in business you have to have to supply your customers with the products and services they need. If you don't like Pro Tools because it doesn't perform the job you expect it to do up to your expectations then don't use it, don't buy it. But do not slam a product as too expensive just because it is a pricey item. Pro Tools is supposed to be, as the name suggests, a tool for professionals. If you are running a studio as a business and not just a hobby or even a project studio, then your expenses become part of your rate schedule.

YOU ARE IN A BUSINESS!!!

If you can't keep up with the costs of maintaining your business either you need someone to handle the financial end of your business for you, or you should get out of the business before you go bankrupt.

I work as a freelance. My costs are low, just transportation to the studios and coffee & soda money. I started picking up a lot more sessions when I learned Pro Tools in depth. More sessions = more money.

I am in the process of upgrading my studio so that I can do audio post production for video and film. Would I like to have a Pro Tools TDM system? You bet your ass I would. But it is "too expensive". So I use an PT LE system and will continue to improve and upgrade with every project I get. And if I do a good job, I will get more work. If I then do a great job, I will command higher fees. If I can command higher fees then I can afford more upgrades to my studio. If I can upgrade the studio I can get better projects.

I am in a business. I have to be a business man, not just an engineer sitting in a chair. I have to get out and promote myself. I have to actively go out and search for work. Gasoline, train fare, cab fare, food and most of all my precious time are investments in myself as a business. My investments in my studio are investments in my business. These are the costs of doing business and as such are tax deductable. I have a business plan, several DBA accounts, a financial planner/manager, etc.

Take a look at your priorities. Take a look at your business if you are a business. Step back and take a good look. A really good hard look.

Sorry about the rant.

Peace to all,

Uncle Bob

:p:

That was a wonderfully written and articulated post, Uncle Bob. You should write professionally! (Well, maybe not - Probably the one career that pays even less than music!) :h:

Articulate? Who and what was this rant meant for?

Originally posted by Audiogaff:

PT is a great tool but it is not the best or only way to do music production and it surely is not the easiest, hasslefree, troubleless, greatest sounding, pure profit making endevour that most people make it out to be.

I agree on this, but I have to say that as far as hasslefree or troubleless system...well, go out and get a piecemeal system with say brand X interface and brand Y software, and try to make the two talk: yes, it works, but don't tell me it works better than PT which is a software written exclusively to work on its dedicated hardware; I'm getting zero crashes or freezes (and I'm working with PT on a PC :D can you belive this!!), the system is super stable, and I'm happy to work with it, it gives me all of the compatibility I need with bigger studios, it sounds good enough to satisfy me and my clients, so why should I shred it? Nobody forced you or anybody else to buy Pro Tools, there's no federal law about it, if you want to get another system you are welcome, there's pros and cons to each decision you make.

I'm not saying it's the only solution available for audio production nowdays (it would be stupid to say so), but having acces to Pro Tools has allowd me to get some more work, because of projects already started on that system that I was able to tap into, conversions and transfers would've been too troublesome and time consuming.

It works for me, it may not work for you, to me it's not about how much value a machine can retain in the time, everything gets obsolete and obsolescence is a planned cost in every profit related activity; to me it's about how much work (and of which quaility) I can do with it, and it fits my bill.

And a far as creativity goes,I'll close my participation to this thread with a sentence I red about Lenny Kravitz which said (talking to a staunch analog fan and user): "man, If Jimi Hendrix was alive today he'll be using Pro Tools".

Cheers and keep up the good work whichever tool you use.

L.G.

Yeah, that's right -we're in a business, but:

I wouldn't think of a respectable businessman who even would think of a recording studio as an investment, other than as a "tax-relieving unit". The netprofit just isn't high enough.

If we are comparing our line of trade to the industry and business in general, we would have to raise our rates to such extent that no one could afford us.

Make no mistake about it, every business is closely monitoring their costs, that's how they make money.

Couldn't it be that the 60's and 70's successes in the music industry drove the prices of gear to the level we see today?

So now when the music industry no longer experience those kind of profit margins, wouldn't it be feasible to expect the prices to fall?

UP

Believe it or not, there are quite a few studios that do a very nice business. I free-lance in a number of them. Every couple of weeks I find a new piece in the racks or a new plug, a software upgrade, a new mic or even something as mundane as a new chair. These facilities serve the growing multi-media community in my area; cable, radio, industrial, film, video, gaming and even, dare I say it, MUSIC!

Many of these places have been around for years and will continue to be around because they have no illusions about what it means to run a business. It means top caliber employees and freelancers running professional sessions in a well maintained environment. This includes the stupid things; it's clean, vacuumed and dusted every day, the bathrooms are spotless; there are phones and internet available; the coffee is always full, fresh and hot and they have good relationships with the take-outs and delis in the area.

The cost of building the studio facility is high, but the cost of quality equipment is actually down. The $500,000.00 facility of today has much more power and versatility than a studio costing the same amount 20 or 30 years ago. And there are many more choices with regard to the equipment you buy. Even ten years ago I could not have afforded the power and versatility my investments in equipment have garnered me today.

Record companies more and more are becoming nothing but marketing firms. They are no longer interested in developing artists, they want to buy finished product and sell as much as they can as fast as they can to cash in on trends. The home and prosumer equipment market has made this a financially attractive option to the corporate world. Low cost and high profits drive big business. The trend today seems to be to convince the wannabes out there that they can do it all themselves. "Buy my gear and get professional results." And then once you have your "professional" product... "For only $XXX.xx we will market your music to all of the best industry insiders." If you actually get any interest from a label, the contracts are so restrictive and the profits for the artist so low that you wonder why you ever started out in the first place. But you love your art and your product, so you put up with all of this in the hopes of becoming the next big thing.

I won't go on with the sad story of what it's like in the music biz, we all know it and many of us have lived it. For those of us who make our living behind the console (I hate calling it the desk, it just sounds so corporate) we have to keep our focus balanced between being a business person and a creative technician. If you insist on focusing only on music you will find yourself squeezed. If you are willing to do almost anything that requires audio you will expand your profit margin. A lot of it is not "glamerous" or even fun, but that is a part of doing BUSINESS.

Uncle Bob

:p:

I would never never go back to my previous rig which was 32 tracks of ADAT XT/DM800, even If I receveived one year of free s-vhs tapes from Quantegy or HHB.
My PT MIx +/G4 800 combo/2 adat bridges has been really nice. MAC is pretty expensive here in Brazil, but as times passes by, the investment returns.

HI folks,
I think as far as the expense goes, well none of this seems chaep, but there are plenty of people happy with there PT rigs because they are stable, and don't need to trade up to the latest. Look at how many rock solid PT III systems there are in use.
People do sell them, though and you can buy there trryed and tested PT III system for about a thousand bucks, Thats not bad for a 16 track system allready configured and readuy to go with some plugs) . May not be the latest but still pritty cookin'. :)

Reconstituted for those who wish to wax esoterically about the various pros and cons of the choices in this business from an owner/engineer standpoint.