That's a tough one Chris. Most patchbays are just TT or 1/4" TS or TRS. I'm not sure I've seen a true patchbay with XLR panel jacks.

As far as the patchbay itself, Furman used to make a PB40 or PB48 with DB25 connectors on the rear. ProCo would probably make you anything you wanted. Know that if you truly want parallel XLR in/out then you are looking at much more than a single rack space. Redco has some DB25 patchbays from Audio Accesories.
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.redco.co…"]Redco Audio[/]="http://www.redco.co…"]Redco Audio[/]

Switchcraft Studio Patch 9625
TT-DB25 Patchbay with Half-normal, Full-normal, or Non-normal Operation
A bit pricey...but it would be an awesome patch bay for around $800
RME has there patch bay as well BOB-32 it's pretty cool around $400

djmukilteo, post: 345216 wrote: Switchcraft Studio Patch 9625
TT-DB25 Patchbay with Half-normal, Full-normal, or Non-normal Operation
A bit pricey...but it would be an awesome patch bay for around $800
RME has there patch bay as well BOB-32 it's pretty cool around $400

This is a little more affordable but not TRS
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.sweetwat…"]Switchcraft Studio Patch 6425 | Sweetwater.com[/]="http://www.sweetwat…"]Switchcraft Studio Patch 6425 | Sweetwater.com[/]

Looks like a am going to be needing a bunch of XLR to TRS cable with something like this.

Hey John,

just looked at the link to Mr Patchbays. Thanks

Is this something you want to solder up and custom build yourself or is this something you want off the shelf?.....

Well, I'm good at soldering but sometimes its more expensive in the long run. I'd rather buy it I think. What's ya thinking?

If soldering skills are good and if it was my MixDream I would hardwire ALL of the DB25's to the back of a 96 patchbay either full 1/4" TRS or the bantamTTminis (my preference).

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.sweetwat…"]Switchcraft TTP96ASFNX | Sweetwater.com[/]="http://www.sweetwat…"]Switchcraft TTP96ASFNX | Sweetwater.com[/]

Then I would hardwire ALL outbd gear ins/outs to the back of the patchbay.
Then I would hardwire the two FF800's ins/outs to the back of the patchbay.

FF800 outputs 1-16 would be normalled to MixDream 1-16 ins
Mixdream Direct Outs 1-16 available on the front for patch
MixDream Sends 1-16 available on the front for patch
MixDream Returns 1-16 available on the front for patch
Outbd gear ins/outs available on the front for patch
FF800's inputs 1-20 available on the front for patch
FF800's outputs 17-20 available on front for patch

Maybe use remaining positions for SPDIF's or a nice rubberized snaked mic floor box...
Install label strips
Plug and play man! Hehe
mmmmmm....Sweet!

TT vs TRS patchbay

TheJackAttack, post: 345215 wrote: Know that if you truly want parallel XLR in/out then you are looking at much more than a single rack space.

Hi John,
patchbay can be 2 or more spaces high, just wanted it 19' for my rack. I have plenty of racks.

djmukilteo, post: 345223 wrote: If soldering skills are good and if it was my MixDream I would hardwire ALL of the DB25's to the back of a 96 patchbay either full 1/4" TRS or the bantamTTminis (my preference).

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.sweetwat…"]Switchcraft TTP96ASFNX | Sweetwater.com[/]="http://www.sweetwat…"]Switchcraft TTP96ASFNX | Sweetwater.com[/]

Then I would hardwire ALL outbd gear ins/outs to the back of the patchbay.
Then I would hardwire the two FF800's ins/outs to the back of the patchbay.

FF800 outputs 1-16 would be normalled to MixDream 1-16 ins
Mixdream Direct Outs 1-16 available on the front for patch
MixDream Sends 1-16 available on the front for patch
MixDream Returns 1-16 available on the front for patch
Outbd gear ins/outs available on the front for patch
FF800's inputs 1-20 available on the front for patch
FF800's outputs 17-20 available on front for patch

Maybe use remaining positions for SPDIF's or a nice rubberized snaked mic floor box...
Install label strips
Plug and play man! Hehe
mmmmmm....Sweet!

djmukilteo,
hmmm, that does sound sweet. Nicely put! Things are going to be so nice when I get this all running.:tongue:

I know there are pros and cons to either but have never taken notice until now. Why do you prefer TT over TRS? What are the main differences?

Until I get this all running , its hard for me to see my full potential so I'm thinking out loud. Bare with me through my whole learning curve and business strategy.

I want my system to be somewhat remote and what pieces I'm not sure. I may buy/ duplicate certain pieces as I see this all fit into my business. I may want to use one of the FF800 for my remote rig and therefore use some of the same cabling and gear.

Taking all this into consideration, I'm hoping whatever I do is easy to patch and go but also do it really well.

This is sightly off topic but the question lends itself to the patchbay connections.
I'm assuming I will go directly into the MIXDream via external mic pre(s) and keyboards first, shape , then, AD to the DAW, mix, and eventually back to the MixDream to prepare for final mix.What do you think?

Does this change how you would setup a patchbay?

Well I have one 19" rack patchbay which is one of those older Tascam PB32P and it's TS.
I used to use it with my Tascam 32/38 decks so it was fine for that.....but now that I have the FF800 and ZEDR16 so I need all balanced TRS.
I think the TRS patch cords are kinda bulky but are less expensive.
The TTbantam are much less bulky in size and footprint and less obtrusive but more expensive.
I think they would definitely be the nicer setup in style and functionality.

I would think mic/instruments to preamps/DI's etc into FF800 or other A/D (Lavry?) directly into DAW for tracking....maybe that's not what you want though...
At mixdown (whatever you like, individual or groups) out of DAW to the FF800 or other D/A (Lavry?) into the MD....summed, insert send returns outbd gear compressors etc etc tweaked out and then output of MD back thru the A/D into DAW for print.
You could also use the direct outs of the MD into the FF800 or other A/D.
The direct outs might be good point for monitoring too.
That's the beauty of the patchbay once it's all wired up with everything brought out front you will have everything right there available for trials!
You might find you want one thing directly into the FF800 or you might want to run it into your Lavry's with a compressor on the output....mix and match plug and play.
The best plan is to map everything out on paper first and see what different setups do for your workspace....but in the end I think I would have the patchbay because it would be so convenient, fast and easy to change and the most flexible!

There are digital patchbays out there that can be programmed and if your looking to remotely change patches from another room that would be the ultimate way to go to....again these are more expensive but there are no hanging patch cables to deal with and any configuration can be recalled at will....
When you say "remote" are you talking about for remote location recording work or remote in terms of different locations in the studio away from the racks and gear?

Hi djmukilteo,

yes, exactly. Mix and match until I see what works best with this hybrid DAW config and also where I fit in with my niche as a studio in this area.
Remote as in, taking a small setup of my studio to a variety of locations, for simple chamber music or to draw more interest to come to my studio for bigger focus. I'll be doing Classical settings to Rock bands including Top 40 for kids including my long overdue album. Just a variety of it all in house of on location.

I'm just thinking outloud right now but what I do want is a working and tested hybrid DAW setup that may be of interest to those looking to do something similar as I am building. Kind of like a turn hybrid DAW system(s) that fits a Sonar, Logic, Reaper, Samplitude, Cubase ... setup

Tell me more about a digital routing system?

Well there are digital routers and digital patchbays. This all can get pretty expensive though and makes you re-think your entire studio or mobile setup.
SSL has the X-Patch, TC Electronic has there Digital Konnetx32, Roland has the RSS Digital Snake,, Aviom has a similar system. Then there's RME and the whole MADI method....but now were talking all digital or optical. A lot of these systems are moving into the whole CAT5E situation and you can patch and route pretty much anything to anywhere with software over a network connection or of course go optical...so then were back to light....which still seems like the best method to me....no electrical interference or noise issues, fast, low latency.....everything is then just a matter of software with patch scenes instantly called up, saved and reconfigured and recalled. This is something you could use for any analog input or output device and would truly be unlimited in connectivity.
Pick up your guitar, pick a channel, pick a DI, compressor, effect, plugin whatever chain you want, route it into your DAW....bamm....wanna change it pick a different chain, save the ones you like, give them a title and bamm....you could do that for everything you have...recall
Again some of these systems are still waaaay expensive. If your building a ground up latest and greatest studio this is the way.....it's really the direction it's all heading...taking your initial analog signals...microphones or instruments and immediately converting everything into digital and then everything is at your fingertips....it won't matter if you have a tube compressor or a ribbon mic or a keyboard.....they will all go into a digital router/patchbay...
Now stepping back from our sweet fantasy.....a mobile setup like you describe a FF800 a patchbay up for routing, TotalMix with a decent laptop or a racked PC with maybe a flip up potable monitor would seem like a killer mobile setup....one rack case...acts as a mixing desk, all your I/O ready to patch whatever configuration you need...simple lightweight. Then fire up Samplitude, Cubase, Sonar, set some levels.....Bob's your uncle LOL

Hey, thanks for the links.

If the SSL X Patch is what I think it is... its looking like a really nice fit for the Dangerous 2BUS?
Peavey PR 12 | Sweetwater.com

TC Electronics Konnetx32 says digital hardware, I couldn't see the back to see what was going on there? Can you plug analog gear into it?
The Roland digital snake doesn't see' in the right direction I think.

I have a Mark Of the Unicron MTC (something? ) I used for digi midi routing with my Pro Tools TDM rig years back so I'm familiar with digital routing. I forgot about that! Its sitting in an old road case. Now you have me thinking.

Still though, Not sure how the MixDream would take advantage of any of the above digital routing system without creating even more wire? Do you know of any other digi routers like the SSL?

Man, so many options to think about. don't you just love it all. Somebody please send me money hehe.

:cool:

Ya...gotta love it!
I guess to me ideally it should all start with a source transducer, converted into digital and then optically transmitted between devices. Then when all the manipulations, translations and processing is complete convert it back to analog so we can all listen to it on transducers again... :tongue: .....at least in the purest sense of a perfect audio world that's how it should work...computers and software are the new mixing board, the new tape deck, the new effects processor. It sure seems like it will eventually replace all analog processes in the end...in the meantime we like hands on and going back into the analog realm momentarily to process things then back into the DAW tape deck...so just like electric cars that aren't all there yet....we have the hybrid! :smile:
I still think if I was setting up the gear were talking about I would get a manual patchbay with enough positions for everything I had....I'm not sure it makes sense for a mobile rig....but I would keep it flexible and keep it simple...:cool:

Ah, sorry if I confused you, I definitely don't need the patchbay for a mobile rig. You got me thinking in all sorts of directions hehe. Which I like! Now I know about the SSL that looks pretty ideal for the 2BUS.

I think we have it figured really. I just need to figure out what patchbay to get, if I should do the soldering and whether its TT or TRS. I don't see myself needing more than 16 returns but who knows. Last time I was analog was in 1992 using a Fostex 16 track, Yamaha consol all syncing everything to SMPTE and remembering it took forever. Everything was in the board except for external reverb, delay, a few DBX comps/limiters, some Orban graphs hmm, hard to remember it... as I raced to produce songs for Warner Chappell.
My dream is back and I'm doing it again, a little more relaxed this time and using the best of both worlds. Been doing RO so long I never had much time to read all the stuff we have here. Its a good feeling to have RO running smooth, all the great Mods and members so at home... and me finally able to get back to recording.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic here.

I somehow think the Hybrid DAW will have a place for a while yet. Digital will keep getting better and may always be a gap that we hear with the last 2 tracks, the bottleneck, that keeps sending us back to analog. Maybe it is all way overkill in the end because the new generation really can't hear or care like we do about sound. Really, my DAW sounds incredible already. My biggest challange has always been those last two tracks to CD.

That Switchcraft 6425 would be a really nice unit!!
32 balanced patch points....I like the way it's laid out too with 8 channel blocks and the normaling set switches on the front between each set of jacks....very handy for changing those.
You could set them to normal thru to the jacks below and not have to use any patch cords!
Get a few matching DB25 cables.
DB25 to DB25 cables for MD to SWC
1-16 sends, 1-16 returns, 1-16 directs, 1-16 ins,, 1-16 outs
Don't know if you want to patch all of the MD that way...but it sure would be flexible and pretty sweet!
Of course you'd need two of the SWC panels to get everything patched in..
So as far as the weak link here (getting all this into your computer) are you thinking the FF800's with FW or have you considered the PCI/PCIe route like the RME MADI stuff?
To me it looks like you've got the 16 channels summing analog mixer/monitor chain figured out!

Hi ,

you've all been so helpful, I'm getting there.

I was looking at the MADI stuff. What would you get?

SPL definitely recommends PCIe but I've got the FF800's so I'll make due for now. I'd say this is my weak link. I hear a definite difference with the Lavry Blacks so I can only imagine how much better it could be. Converters are going to make big improvement this next decade. I'm guessing prices are going to drop, quality and options are going to really step up.

Yes, the way you describe the 6425, choice. I've never used something like this. Again, a whole new curve for connecting gear. Until I get the MD hooked up I can only speculate its functions. I'm a trial and error/ hands on learner. It seems like it has a mini routing system already. I'm wondering if I'm duplicating anything. What do you think?
Regarding the 6425, Do you connect it all as you suggest via 25 sub and then patch things in the front like an old telephone system? I'm trying to invision this like my digital midi routing box but with patch cords?

Before I make my final decision and all the cables needed, I'm going to ask for double checking help. Hope you don't mind a one last check? Everything is going to be shipped so I'm hoping I get it right.

Yes any patchbay...uses patch cords just like a telephone switchboard....except you don't have to continually plug in and plug out like the girls used to have to do! Hehe.
The beauty is if you have a lot of gear to hookup you can do it in such a way that the upper row of jacks are input ports like 1-16 on the MD and you want to "normally" route those inputs to some output device like say the 1-16 FF800 outputs....so you would set it up and "normal" the jack on the top row to the jack on the row below it, by setting that little switch. Now the input from the MD is "normally" connected thru those two jacks without any patch cords plugged in.
Anytime you want to change an input or out to some other location in the chain, you merely plug in a patch cord which isolates that jack from its "normal" connection and it's now available to go to whatever you like. If you lay it out logically and think about the different configurations it can be a very flexible system with easy access to all of you gear all in one place....of course if you have a smaller setup and have it all plugged in with cords, it might not be worth the costs.
As far as the MADI stuff I would definitely look at the RME PCIe internal cards. But now your talking optical directly into and out of your computer so now your moving away from the FF800 and FW.
I love my FF800 and the sound. I've never heard the Lavry so if you say it sounds better than the FF converters I will take your word on it!...It would be cool if you could record some samples on both of those with your Samplitude sometime and post results for comparison.....I'm sure the Lavry would win...but still....I'd like to see if you can hear a difference.
In the end I still think drawing out a plan/design on paper or on your computer is the only way you can decide what you have in your studio should go where and how it all fits together. Then decide what might fit into the mix!

djmukilteo, post: 345330 wrote:
I love my FF800 and the sound. I've never heard the Lavry so if you say it sounds better than the FF converters I will take your word on it!...It would be cool if you could record some samples on both of those with your Samplitude sometime and post results for comparison.....I'm sure the Lavry would win...but still....I'd like to see if you can hear a difference.
In the end I still think drawing out a plan/design on paper or on your computer is the only way you can decide what you have in your studio should go where and how it all fits together. Then decide what might fit into the mix!

Hi djmukilteo,

My next decade of RO life will be sharing my recordings with my friends here. I feel so fortunate to have such a nice setup now and it will be interesting to hear how I do with it.

I only did one comparison with the AD10 into the FF800 and it was to my ears, quicker, more open and sweeter sounding. Not a lot but it sounded better. My gear is all too new and it all sounds great right now so its not worth believing too far in what I post at this time. Once this wears off and I start to tune into it all, I will hear the subtle things of my gear, I will then have more value to what I post.

I don't use the FF800 mic pres anymore, that's for sure. They are great for what it all is as a package, but I have better so that part of the FF800 are only for my remote convenience. It is my opinion the FF800 are the weak link with my hrbrid system now. But its still really awesome and if I can't produce something with all this, man.... I am crap. I'm satisfied as is now and really happy with them. My gear is much better than average.

Have you used other mic pres with the FF800?

I pretty much only use the True Precision 8 with my FF800 via the line inputs. I have a set of Onyx 800R as well for ADAT expansion but haven't had the opportunity to use them since I got the True. Looking next fall to get into some Millennia HV 3R. With luck.

The only mic preamps I've used other than the FF800 is my ZED R16 but I have the ZED running ADAT into the FF800 so the ZED pretty much is bypassing the RME pre.
I hadn't thought about routing an input channel out of the ZED analog and into the FF inputs!!?....which would be an idea....
I have a very small modest recording setup and wish I had some of the equipment you have....I totally enjoy discussing audio gear and all the technical aspects..
And it has been absolutely great discussing high end gear in this thread!.....

Like wise, I'm having the best time I've had since I started RO! What a great community we have. What excellent members. IMHO, This is the absolute best group we've had since RO started. The vibe RO has now is just awesome. I'm hearing very positive things about this community.

Monitors are the next topic coming... hehe. Well, I may get back to this patchbay again. And cable really is another topic. Seems kind of ridicules having all this quality gear and average cable. Is Is there better than Monster or Mogami ? Maybe I should open a topic on [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.vovox.co…"]VOVOX: Klangleiter - Sound Conductors[/]="http://www.vovox.co…"]VOVOX: Klangleiter - Sound Conductors[/]

Now that's cable worth hearing....:tongue:

John, Millennia is nice stuff. You are definitely on track IMO.

djmukilteo, post: 345368 wrote: The only mic preamps I've used other than the FF800 is my ZED R16 but I have the ZED running ADAT into the FF800 so the ZED pretty much is bypassing the RME pre.
I hadn't thought about routing an input channel out of the ZED analog and into the FF inputs!!?....which would be an idea....

You have a great opportunity here for a direct comparison of the FF800 ADCs against those in the R16. You presumably use the FireWire input to the computer for the R16 mix output (since this is not available via ADAT), so if you took the R16 main L-R analog outs into a pair of the FF800 line inputs, you would have an alternative route into the computer for the mix. Probably you will not be able to capture from the R16 and the FF800 at the same time, as it involves two independent FireWire devices, but running the same mix through both would give you tracks on the computer that had come directly from the R16 and also via the FF800 ADCs. By lining them up in your DAW, you could flip the monitoring between the two and hear any differences.

I've used my APIs, DAVs and Audients through the FF800 line ins and been very pleased with the results. However, any of those external pre-amps does sound better than the FF800's own pre-amps.

Chris, don't know if this helps? I have a huge batch of top shelf patch bays that are completely modular. They have multiple goldplated Elco connectors on the back. For input & output & normaling. I also have all new matching connectors to go with them. They are heavy mothers but first-rate. They came from NBC-TV but were manufactured in New Hampshire to go with the Neve consoles and everything else in the audio control rooms. Shipping would probably cost more than I would charge you for the patch bays? They are 1/4 inch TRS. And yeah, we actually used some XLR patch systems at NBC-TV. Primarily just for microphones but XLR patch bays nevertheless. Getting 1U rack mounts with XLR connectors installed can generally accommodate 10 in a row. God knows, I use plenty of those myself in the truck, for the truck and by the truck so help me God. Please help me God. God I need some help. I'm starting to record a lot of death metal so I need some help. I hate that stuff. Now I'm really a prostitute.

Growling like Satan are my favorite songs
Mx. Remy Ann David