For those who are interested, here's a very cool video by Tim Dolbear explaining the use of FFT for "take matching" vocals recorded at different times:

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at around 1:49.

d.

Donny, it would be more effective if you would choose a know song and a specific part we could sing for you.
The reason is, if I sing a hi pitch part and you apply it to a lower part, I bet it won't translate well because it will cut too much low end.
(just me thinking ;) )

It doesn't even need to be a singing part, Marco... just your normal speaking voice will do for the initial experiment. Something as simple as "Hi Donny this is Marco Speaking through a_____mic into a ____ preamp" would be enough at this point to feed the FFT.

During the second stage of the experiment, we could get into a singing part. The experiment is to see the result of applying the normal timbre of your voice. ;)

If I understand correctly, the FFT is an EQ matching tool right ?
I'm not sure if it will act on the character of the voice but I'm willing to help you !

When I get the chance, I'll send you a file or two ;)

AH ! I got an Idea, why don't you send a file of your voice, I'll send it to the LA610 and the 4-710, you could analyse how the signal is transformed...
Comparing the same signal through different preamps or other units could be of an interest too. ;)

You got a deal. ;)

Can you PM me your email address again... I'm sure I have it somewhere but I recently upgraded Mozilla and I can't guarantee it kept it in the address book...

Donny,

Your experiment is an interesting one. I'm curious about the algorithm this plugin uses to determine the EQ curve it applies. It looks like a potentially powerful tool, and I'm wondering how it accounts for different types of inputs. What happens if you apply a sine wave, for example? Does it just surgically notch that frequency? I could see having all sorts of fun applying different signals and seeing what happens.

Anyway, my gear is modest, but I'd be happy to lay down another blurb if you're still looking for another wav file. I noticed the video suggested using at least 20 seconds' worth. Have you had good luck with shorter samples?

Luke

The length of the file doesn't have to be 20 seconds, Rev. I have "sampled" clips as short as 5 seconds. I think that 20 seconds is just the default setting.

Again gang, this is just an experiment, hence the title. It may not prove to be worth anything... I just thought I'd see what happens.

Please do send a file! The more the merrier! :)

I've hardly used this.
I'm up for this as well, Donny! My days for singing are behind me for now but I'll do a speech through my Soundelux e250 and M-2b. It will be a while before I have time though, so slammed but please continue in the mean time.

That would be great Chris. :) Rev Lucas has sent me a file, I'm gonna work on that one today, and Marco and I have a related side experiment going on that might be interesting as well.

I sent you a file as well Donny, (used the email address of our last exchange)
4 different speaches 2 preamps 2 mics. Hope it's ok ;)

awesome! I'm gonna work on these today once I get the little woman off to work. ;)

just a quick update guys... I kinda got swamped with work the last 5 days or so, seemed to hit out of nowhere. I have NOT forgotten about this and I'll get to it just as soon as I get a few of these client's projects done, probably within next few days.

:)

Having a lot of work is a good thing... ;)

Yeah, it's a lot of editing...sigh... trying to fix rough performances. I didn't track the project so I'm left at the mercy of the person who did. I say "person" because I'm hesitant to refer to this sloppy type of recording as being done by a real engineer. LOL

For as convenient as I find digital to be, sometimes I miss the days of tape - because you could only fix things to a certain extent; and you could actually and rightfully blame a bad performance on the performer, as opposed to today's digital, where it's becoming all too popular to expect a mixing engineer to take crap and make it perfect.

Typical conversation:

Client: I know I played some wrong notes on the bass part, and I'm a little behind the beat too..

Donny: I would call playing a full 16th note off as being more than just a little behind the beat...

Client: I think it's referred to a playing in "the pocket".

Donny: Yeah? Who's pocket are ya playing in? Maybe the band next door? Actually, I think it's called "playing out of time".

Client: Well yeah, maybe a little, I guess. But you can fix it can't you?

Donny: (Sigh)....To a point... I don't suppose that you would perhaps ever consider recording a performance that was good to begin with...

Client: Total Silence. Looks at me like I'm from Venus.

Donny: Okay, I'll see what I can do. However, I don't know that I can do much about making your lead singer sound any less like a singing worm.

Client: (stoned laugh) Hehe. Singing worm.

Donny: Alright, I'll see what I can do.

Client: Great. Can I pick this up in an hour?

d.

The sad part is, if you play the instrument yourself, it's sometime faster to play the song rather than fix the bad performance. But at this point they would need to put your name on the record ;)

Then they ask why it doesn't sound like their favorite band, and also ask why it took so long to "mix". It's so worth it tho to be disciplined and fix all the technical stuff before I start messing around w sonics. I hate editing, but once you get going, especially on mediocre performances, it becomes hard to not edit everything thru and thru. It's like if you put one part the way it "should" be, the whole rest of the song suddenly looks worse.

I can't wait till touchscreen editing is the norm because, just what I can do in garage band on an iPad is awsome, but quite limited. The tedium of lining up things w a mouse and in my case squinting to see the I beam tool. Ditto for midi editing/programming, great stuff, but I ignore it due to the workflow, when its touch screen, it'll be so much more right brained. It's gonna take a while I. Sure tho...

kmetal, post: 420330, member: 37533 wrote: I hate editing, but once you get going, especially on mediocre performances, it becomes hard to not edit everything thru and thru.

Yup. That's the thing. Because as you fix certain things, those improvements can actually make the other unimproved parts sound even worse... as if that's even possible sometimes. LOL

Dude it's bad enough alone, how bout when the client catches wind of what you can do then then starts wi the pointing at the screen and the " little bit more that ways" or worse when your lining something up, and every time you hit stop and play to quickly check audition it its like " nope" "nope" , it's like dude, do you really think I think I'm getting it each time? I'm seeing how far off I still am, wait till I say "check this out, or ok, listen."

I swear the gui s for eqs are terrible for that. Hey move that red dot over there, what's it sound like over there!?. Lol I don't really mind, it, it's cool they're interested. It just takes longer sometimes.

This is a big thing w people not familiar w the process, and why I don't charge for setup time, or I'll take extra time that I don't charge for to make it right as I can. Cuz they don't see the value in that. If they physically see you moving stuff it looks like ur doing something important. When your micing mics around and hitting chords, it just looks like your messing around, which you are but professionally. But honesltly the editing to death seems necessary about half the time for me, and boy is it tediues.

I had a signer/guitar player who once came to the studio asking to make the recording of him and add all the other instruments (as with a band)
after 15min of hearing him strugle with the time of the first song.. I said, wait, if you want I can play and you'll save money. I recorded 2 full album for him overtime.. He would give me the chord progression and I'd do everything except I would sing at the end (The vocal made my eye bleeds but he was paying...)

pcrecord, post: 420340, member: 46460 wrote: I had a signer/guitar player who once came to the studio asking to make the recording of him and add all the other instruments (as with a band)
after 15min of hearing him strugle with the time of the first song.. I said, wait, if you want I can play and you'll save money. I recorded 2 full album for him overtime.. He would give me the chord progression and I'd do everything except I would sing at the end (The vocal made my eye bleeds but he was paying...)

I have made a great deal of money over the years doing just what you described. Solo artist production is good business, if you can find your niche. Most of the time, a solo singer / songwriter would come to me for help; usually someone on acoustic guitar or keys (guitar mostly, sometimes piano) who could manage to put together a basic chord progression with some lyrics - but they wanted to take it to the next step.

Although I will admit that there were a few times over the years where someone would come to me with a great song, and I would be honest with them and tell them that it sounded great as it was, and that we would definitely record it, but to add anything else to the song would have been totally unnecessary, or even distracting.

d.

DonnyThompson, post: 420345, member: 46114 wrote: I have made a great deal of money over the years doing just what you described. Solo artist production is good business, if you can find your niche. Most of the time, a solo singer / songwriter would come to me for help; usually someone on acoustic guitar or keys (guitar mostly, sometimes piano) who could manage to put together a basic chord progression with some lyrics - but they wanted to take it to the next step.

(y)
The best paying jobs I get are all like this. Mixing and mastering is scratch compared.

I am learning all I can about digital editing. What a pain in the ass this process is. Done right, it will make a decent recording of a good performance WAY better. Not much can ever be done about bad performance and bad songwriting. An excellent edit of something like this only intensifies the obvious lack in either or both.
Today my ProTools instructor.......(yes kids it helps to have someone who REALLY knows what they're doing) (YES, I pay him just like a college professor) ...Anyway...my instructor tells me after an entire day of going over aspects of edit genius in PT, "Today, you are using ProTools for what it is designed for. Until now you could have been using garage band and the results would have been not much different."

Of course this is old hat to some of you. To me its freeing my mind towards making very very good sounding records. Its all about the edit, and then its about your choices of what to do with it after its edited. I know why some big rooms have 24 1176's. They're all tied to the Neve console sitting there in front of the window. At edit, they can do a whole lot of tracks at once. Sweetening the sound. I have to go out and come back a few at a time to get "that" sound. Its worth it.

Now I need clients who understand what it takes to really make records sound great. Thank goodness I don't do this for a living.

The full length I'm doing now is full of really good songs, great musicians and crafty lyrics. They're getting way more for their money than a lot would put in, but as a Producer I hear the potential and they sell their product well. So, I'll make the best record that I can make. They aren't in a hurry. They're on a flat rate. Its my time and my room.

I will never make another recording for someone who doesn't know what they want. Never. I'm talking about those musicians who want to sound like their favorite genre or who think they are Jon Bon Jovi....and they have 'heard' info about this and that and think its gospel because its on the inner-nyet....The dangerous to their own careers because they can't get out of their own way to be successful. Never any more little old ladies reading books.

Real songwriters with a real grasp on the way to be pro about their craft. I don't care about the budget. I don't NEED the money. Sounds strange and pie-in-the-sky when I write it out.

Sorry for the hijack . I recently had to give a clients money back simply because he had no idea what was involved in the process and his goals kept changing every time it started sounding good. What went from a casual representation of his voice and acoustic guitar became sales on CD baby, iTunes and other media and more and more. It was the "can I have all that in an hour?" "Oh and can you make it sound like a Kenny Rogers record?" Oh and BTW, it sounded like a real record and still wasn't enough...........what'dya gonna do?? Ever hear this one? "Could you take some 12db off my guitar. I heard thats what's making it sound odd." From someone who couldn't play all the way through their own songs they had been playing for five years regularly and couldn't sing in pitch to save a puppy's life. rant!

Explaining what it took to make that happen and what it would cost became an argument about why it wasn't prepared that way to begin with when that wasn't the original goal. You guys understand how much care and time you put into something that is a demo or personal level 'representation' as opposed to the real deal for commercial release. So I'm not commercial any longer. No more sessions without a real purpose.

I feel the pain, if this helps, here is my policy.

For the larger creative project ( more than a few tracks), I don't bill out for the first song. It gives everyone the freedom to do their thing without a price or time limit for whats to come.
I don't however, even consider something I know I wouldn't be thrilled to invest in. I mean, once you hear someone, we know what they have to offer and if we are right for them, right?
So, I work on the first one free to prepare them and qualify our values. The first one is also advertising so even if it end up as a financial loss, its still advertising.
I do my very best until we are all happy.
At that point I know what I need to do. I say, well... it took 60 hours for that one. :cool: What are you willing to pay for that? And then we make the deal.

This works like a charm. I've never regretted one project this way in 20 years now. My reputation is gold. But not because I'm some guru, but because I'm the most open and honest guy to work with. People talk and do my advertising. I want more of the same client expectation. I allow everyone to have as much time as "needed" to make the goal come true. People tell others how I work but now this experience comes at a price. They teach others about me, which builds a client with a certain style, expectation and price.

Preparation is everything.

The first song is the benchmark, the learning curve where we teach true professionalism.
Extra time taken in the first song pays off down the road. Its always a win win! I always say, now you know, we know, what is needed to make this project happen. This is how detailed it gets and that was only the first song.

Are you prepared for the rest? If so, what are you willing to pay, what is your budget and when do you want to begin?

Davedog, post: 420793, member: 4495 wrote: I am learning all I can about digital editing. What a pain in the ass this process is. Done right, it will make a decent recording of a good performance WAY better. Not much can ever be done about bad performance and bad songwriting. An excellent edit of something like this only intensifies the obvious lack in either or both.

More than a few times I've done a decent rough, then did editing. Even w identical settings the edited version always sounds better. Your dealing w less phase issues and masking, it paints a picture w sharper lines I think.

I've never met an engineer who hasn't done extra work for the some reason. Whether to salvage it to listenable or just work late trying some new ideas after the clock stops. Between tech things and routine off the clock type stuff that whatever and hours diminishes quickly. I never had money issues w clients, also haven't done any commercial releases either.

The only time I ran into something u guys was somebody came in for a couples sessions and just wasn't ready on any level, we decided to just give him the roughs and not take any money. It was surprisingly not weird and he recently put out something which I have heard and am glad to hear he's come along.

People seem more bossy live to me than he studio. But it sucks when they are adamant about something that the rest of the world sees as not true. It takes a lot but I have stopped working for people who got ridiculous. I've had quite a long streak without punching a time clock, but I cannot afford to turn gigs down on principle merit or even fair treatment sometimes lol, but that's the exception and most people are cool even if it's not perfect chemistry.

I always said the day I stop having fun with this is day I quit. Obviously it really is work, but if it's not fun its not worth it. If someone's ruining it for me in some way or another, it gets fixed or it ends. But it really does take a lot to get to that point. And rarely has w me.

Lol it's funny that each client has like a language you have to figure out. Like 'add more mids the the guitars, they're too shavy.'

Now that engineering at some capacity is a common thing for most musicians, I think the role of producer is ever more important, and probably the most busy people will be the more producer arranger type studios/engineers.

Too bad that person was lame, you have all those new toys to make it sound killer! Certainly their loss.

There have been several clients over the years that I just couldn't help - either because they were never happy with what I would do, or because they didn't know what they wanted, or, they knew what they wanted and it was ridiculous.

As an example of the last reason above, I one worked with a client who had just purchased Sonar, and had found out that you could insert different tempos throughout a song... which would have been fine, except what he wanted to do was to insert one bar with a tempo change of one bpm, and then go right back to the original tempo on the very next measure.

I told him that it wouldn't make a difference, using a change that miniscule and for only one measure, but he insisted - so I went ahead and did what he asked. Of course, you couldn't tell that any tempo change had been inserted, and he started down the "there's obviously something wrong with your DAW" path. He then told me that it was because I didn't know what I was doing with quantizing, and that was the problem as to why the tempo drift wasn't noticeable.

At this point, I told him that maybe the best course of action was for him to do this work on his own and then just bring me a midi file - and he agreed. I heard back from him a month or so later, and I told him that I had taken on an album project in the time between and couldn't get him in for several more weeks. This wasn't true... I was trying to get rid of him. I knew what would happen if I continued to work with him, it would be a project of teeth pulling proportions, and he would never be happy. He told me that he would have to go to another studio, and I told him I understood... and breathed a sigh of relief.
I knew - according to "Donny's BSF" (Bull Shit Factor) - that he would have been off the scale in terms of being difficult to work with.

Sometimes it's just best to walk away from certain clients and projects. If your Spidey Senses are telling you to be careful, then you should pay close attention to that intuition. ;)

Also there's no good way to say that the performance and/or the song is crap. Many customers don't realise their product sounded like shit before they arrived to the studio. And they don't understand that you could can spray gold on poo and it will still be poo ! ;) sorry for the line of words.

On the other hand, there's the artist that have a great song and amazing interpretation, but they are so insecure that the doubt everything starting by the sound engineer.

The last case is you and the customer chasing different goal. You may be in a purety of sound mode, but the customer may want nothing near a natural sound that you seek.

Be for you start a project, it is very important to put your expectations and those of the customer on the table and create some kind of recipe that will make you both happy.

DonnyThompson : did you get anywhere with your experiment ?

pcrecord, post: 420872, member: 46460 wrote: did you get anywhere with your experiment ?

I've been pretty busy, doing live gigs as a performer. I'm gonna do my best to get to it this weekend.

Right now, as I'm typing this, Samplitude is rendering a 2 mix of a song I'm doing for a client.

This place is great. It's like a little studio lounge that engineers, producers, techs and musicians can pop into as they're walking down the hall, going to or coming from a session.

Now, if we could only figure out a way to get a virtual coffee machine going... LOL... we'd be all set. I'll supply the donuts and danish if someone can tell me how to upload them. ;)

DonnyThompson, post: 420867, member: 46114 wrote: There have been several clients over the years that I just couldn't help - either because they were never happy with what I would do, or because they didn't know what they wanted, or, they knew what they wanted and it was ridiculous.

As an example of the last reason above, I one worked with a client who had just purchased Sonar, and had found out that you could insert different tempos throughout a song... which would have been fine, except what he wanted to do was to insert one bar with a tempo change of one bpm, and then go right back to the original tempo on the very next measure.

I told him that it wouldn't make a difference, using a change that miniscule and for only one measure, but he insisted - so I went ahead and did what he asked. Of course, you couldn't tell that any tempo change had been inserted, and he started down the "there's obviously something wrong with your DAW" path. He then told me that it was because I didn't know what I was doing with quantizing, and that was the problem as to why the tempo drift wasn't noticeable.

At this point, I told him that maybe the best course of action was for him to do this work on his own and then just bring me a midi file - and he agreed. I heard back from him a month or so later, and I told him that I had taken on an album project in the time between and couldn't get him in for several more weeks. This wasn't true... I was trying to get rid of him. I knew what would happen if I continued to work with him, it would be a project of teeth pulling proportions, and he would never be happy. He told me that he would have to go to another studio, and I told him I understood... and breathed a sigh of relief.
I knew - according to "Donny's BSF" (Bull Shit Factor) - that he would have been off the scale in terms of being difficult to work with.

Sometimes it's just best to walk away from certain clients and projects. If your Spidey Senses are telling you to be careful, then you should pay close attention to that intuition. ;)

Very much what I ran into with this guy. I want to add that he was all of the first part of your quote. All at once.

How did this experiment go?

It works very well for matching tracks that were recorded by the same person at different times - for example, if you get a track 90% there performance-wise, and the singer wants to come back in a week later and punch in a phrase, as long as you use the same gain chain as you did with the first take, it works very well.

Wow, I would never thought of it that way. Very cool.

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