Dr_Willie_OBGYN, post: 420188, member: 25832 wrote:
Real musicians are self-taught. They learn by ear. It's in their blood.

What do you meen by self taught ? Figuring by yourself how to do things or listening to all the youtube video on the subject ...

I'm considering myself self-taught but with some references. (books, online articles and a bit of youtube)
BUT, even if I'm the most passionate guy and my blood if full of it, I know I'm deficiant in many ways.
I have a limited knowledge of scales and chords. (I'm a drummer but need to help some customers sometime)
Starting to play an instrument with the good technic will save you years of hurting yourself sometime.
So to me, there's a big value to schools. I'm just sad, my family didn't have the money to send me ! ;)

Eddie Van Halen, Jimi Hendrix, etc. Where do I begin. I'm not saying no to a few lessons to get started. It's one thing to take a few lessons from the guy down at the music store but 81K at MI??!! This is teachers making money. This is a school system business. People with natural born talent don't need a 4 friggin' year degree at the musician's institute. You can't teach talent. Invest that $81,000 and by retirement age that money will be worth almost a million dollars.

Watch "the college conspiracy" on YouTube.

I agree that 81k is alot of money and it is exagerated.

But you can't deny that many prolific artists had some degree of music education.
Believe me, I'm not against your statement. It's just that the way you said it. That 'Real musician' may sound offensive to some...
I agree that talent and education do not come in pair and neither will it guaranty succes !

BTW, Eddie Van Halen learned classical piano as a kid... He might have been a natural tho ;)

pcrecord, post: 420208, member: 46460 wrote:
I agree that talent and education do not come in pair and neither will it guaranty success!
;)

That's an understatement. There's plenty of talented musicians out there who never earn more than they spent in education, equipment, etc. The music business is like a game of musical chairs with 3 chairs for every 100 players. Even people who get a record deal are looking at terrible odds. Most will fail and get dropped. Only about 1 in 20 signed acts turns out to be a hit. With those odds I would not be spending 81K. 4 years and 81K is for people studying to be doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc. These people have real job upside potential.

BTW I wonder what the criteria is for accepting students at MI. Is it a question of whether they have talent? Money?

a larger percentage of my family, including my mother who had perfect pitch and was a metropolitan opera singer were all classically trained. I am the black sheep and the one that has done the best, musically financially. My kids are rising stars, classically trained but I fear they will loose the creative thing I have, if they don't exercise listening and playing what you feel over reading. I'm a believer that gifted musician are the ones who don't just read but, there are all sorts of aspects to this industry that require more than what I have. I look at those however, more like day jobs.
As an example, I did a theatre gig a few years back where I was given all the music on tape, perfect for "my thing". I had the entire show done and at the last minute, a few singer couldn't play in the keys and then had to completely change the music to what the music director thought was better. At that point, they started reading and I was lost up until they all had it down. Only at that point was I able to make sense of it all and get involved.

I hated the entire experience. I felt the entire group of musicians were dead sounding, book worms. After 18 years of Rock and Roll gigging, that was like hanging out with a bunch of geeks. I admit, I wish I could have read the charts but I would most likely not be who I am today.

There are times I wish I knew more about the theory though, mostly so I could see what I am gifted with from a more literal sense. It would be fun to see what is going on in my head on paper too.

In the pop world , I think its all about real life experiences and capturing the creative talent more than anything so I guess thats why I like it the most. Pop is where is fit in most. I love less rules but serious at the same time. The coolest musicians I know and have played with don't read a note. I think musicians are in the circle of great listeners with a hand eye, athletic skill.

I'll stop there. Good thread!

Dr_Willie_OBGYN, post: 420207, member: 25832 wrote: People with natural born talent don't need a 4 friggin' year degree at the musician's institute.

That all depends on what your goal is and what kind of musician you want to be.

Rock? No sweat. Learn your instrument, hone your chops, make your connections, be on your way - for better or worse. LOL

But if you are a classical/orchestral musician, most orchestras won't even consider you unless you have at least a BA in Music, no matter what your talent level.

Why? Because they need to know that you are disciplined enough to have completed a 4 year degree in classical/orchestral study, that you are well-read in the history and styles of classical music, and perhaps most importantly, that you can read... and I'm not talking about sight-reading a few simple notes, either.
They need to know that when they put a piece of music in front of you, say for example something like Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. 3, that you can nail it perfectly... the first time through.

Your education level also determines the level of your salary. Orchestras can vary pretty widely on what they pay from chair to chair... a first chair violinist with The Cleveland Orchestra can pull down upwards of $80k annually, while a third or fourth chair might only make around $40k per annum.

Generally, major orchestra's do not have "walk in" auditions. They choose candidates from highly respected and accredited Universities and Music Conservatories that have a solid reputation for turning out great musicians; places like Berklee, Julliard, Oberlin, Boston Conservatory, Bard, Carnegie-Mellon, etc., which are all (but certainly not the only) highly respected music programs. Tuition for these universities and conservatories is far more expensive than $81k.

Most well-respected schools average out at around $80k... per year. And that doesn't include miscellaneous fees like labs, student study materials, continuation of private instruction, housing, etc.

Truth be told, these days, you'd be hard-pressed to obtain a General Academic BA degree in Liberal Arts from even your average state university for any less than $250k.

Just sayin'. ;)

All that being said, I've never heard of this "Musician's Institute". Wait a sec... I just found it:

Hmmmm..... probably not considered to be "accredited". LOL.
Looks a little bit like "Doctor Nick's Upstairs Medical College".

-d.

I think reading and writing should be tools to prepare and learn a song not to perfor with. It's much like reading a text in front of an audience ; the performance is not the same as if you perform directly without reading.
In fact, I think, putting some emotions in your music and reading it, call 2 different parts of the brain which are not compatible. (I think)
But their are some complex articulations that would be hard to explain to a band or a ensemble without putting down some charts.

Also, knowing some theory will open the song writer's mind that there is more than 3 chords possible to use.
You need some skills to transpose on the fly, if the day of the show, the singer has a cold and ask to the song to be lowered... (I see that nearly every show I'm on.)
God bless me for being a drummer, I wouldn't be able to switch key just by mentaly calculate the chord progressions.

So I think that a good balance is the key.

Of course, we all know that there is some world succes artists that have no musical skills or talent but still sells records and shows. That's called being well produced and published ;)

If your gonna go that route you either get a nothing music degree at a local school or you go whole hog and go to berkley or other school if you get in. ALot of people I've met from there say it's not just what you learn its who you meet. Like any good school you pay for prestige and connections that will hopefully propel you out of that mountain of debt you took on, borrow 250k on a student loan pay back at least 500. That my humble opinion. You sure are gonna come out of there a profile dr musician or engineer, a place like that will not pass slouches. All the berkly people I've met and played w have been professionals.

Unless that's yor game plan, I don't see the value in it. I'd take the 80 grand get a fixer upper and be on my way. I took some guitar lessons after playing a few years, read quite a few curriculum courses nd starting working professionally after 10 years, so I have some formal education, but mostly OJT which is cool cuz usually ua get paid. It also doesn't hurt that my boss is a berklee grad, so pretty lucky, but still.

The audio course at the local technical cool is 50k unaccredited. The live sections requires you to route effects on the board and bring a mix up. You are required to mix one song for one of the final courses, and they don't teach formal music. Rip off I passed. And decided against berkley as well. While I really enjoyed a fair amount of my college classes I still think school sucks, and I hate practicing, lol so I don't think its worth my cash.

I think most people would learn what they need to know in a year or two hanging around some pros. At least enough to decide career or hobby.

The cool thing about audio schools is the toys!!!!! SSLs neves you name it, NESCOM has a rediculous gear list, like 2 of anything. So in that right it's cool, cuz those cats would be sweating slot less in front of a 9k which I'd be luck to figure out how to power on If left alone, but still, his many situations am I likely to be thrown unsupervised in fron of one of them? Even then, I'm sure I could get flying on just about any mixer out there pretty quickly, although I will say the tascam mx-30 is the most confusing mixer ever!

If your gonna go that route you either get a nothing music degree at a local school or you go whole hog and go to berkley or other school if you get in. ALot of people I've met from there say it's not just what you learn its who you meet. Like any good school you pay for prestige and connections that will hopefully propel you out of that mountain of debt you took on, borrow 250k on a student loan pay back at least 500. That my humble opinion. You sure are gonna come out of there a profile dr musician or engineer, a place like that will not pass slouches. All the berkly people I've met and played w have been professionals.

Unless that's yor game plan, I don't see the value in it. I'd take the 80 grand get a fixer upper and be on my way. I took some guitar lessons after playing a few years, read quite a few curriculum courses nd starting working professionally after 10 years, so I have some formal education, but mostly OJT which is cool cuz usually ua get paid. It also doesn't hurt that my boss is a berklee grad, so pretty lucky, but still.

The audio course at the local technical cool is 50k unaccredited. The live sections requires you to route effects on the board and bring a mix up. You are required to mix one song for one of the final courses, and they don't teach formal music. Rip off I passed. And decided against berkley as well. While I really enjoyed a fair amount of my college classes I still think school sucks, and I hate practicing, lol so I don't think its worth my cash.

I think most people would learn what they need to know in a year or two hanging around some pros. At least enough to decide career or hobby.

The cool thing about audio schools is the toys!!!!! SSLs neves you name it, NESCOM has a rediculous gear list, like 2 of anything. So in that right it's cool, cuz those cats would be sweating slot less in front of a 9k which I'd be lucky to figure out how to power on If left alone, but still, his many situations am I likely to be thrown unsupervised in fron of one of them? Even then, I'm sure I could get flying on just about any mixer out there pretty quickly, although I will say the tascam mx-30 is the most confusing mixer ever!

Judging by the way they look and dress, I don't see a lot of classical/orchestral musicians going to MI. Just sayin'.

if there was a survey made, i'd bet at least 1/3rd of the people currently working in a "real" pro room doing "real" pro work had some time at a recording school of some type. relationships and life long bonds are created in these environments. no matter how much one had already learned if they go into one of these schools with the correct attitude, formalizing their knowledge can only be a good thing.

Kurt Foster, post: 420240, member: 7836 wrote: if there was a survey made, i'd bet at least 1/3rd of the people currently working in a "real" pro room doing "real" pro work had some time at a recording school of some type. relationships and life long bonds are created in these environments. no matter how much one had already learned if they go into one of these schools with the correct attitude, formalizing their knowledge can only be a good thing.

plus one.

I always wanted to go to Berkley, but I never had the money when the time was best for me. Time goes on, life passed me by.
Recording was never a thing I was pursuing so I'm looking at this topic from a performing life. imho, performing requires raw talent, determination and the ability to engage people.. If you have that, and a family that will support you until you get a break, thats the best it gets. Once you have your act together, this industry is no different from any other. You need to sell it/ market it via where the traffic goes most and work until you get a break. Again, imho, its not about how great you are as a musician, its how great you engage people. I'm not so sure you learn that part in a music college.

If I was to do it all over again the one thing I would change would be to do all original music. I got caught up in cover music to survive.

But, you learn it after you get your ass kicked a few times and the humbling sets in.

Dr_Willie_OBGYN, post: 420207, member: 25832 wrote: Eddie Van Halen, Jimi Hendrix, etc. Where do I begin. I'm not saying no to a few lessons to get started. It's one thing to take a few lessons from the guy down at the music store but 81K at MI??!! This is teachers making money. This is a school system business. People with natural born talent don't need a 4 friggin' year degree at the musician's institute. You can't teach talent. Invest that $81,000 and by retirement age that money will be worth almost a million dollars.

Watch "the college conspiracy" on YouTube.

This one will go far.

sdelsolray, post: 420889, member: 12873 wrote: This one will go far.

Thanks

Music is essentially a language. We all "learn" a language -- but to really study and learn it opens up many many doors and creative avenues of expression that it's silly to say just because a street poet can write a profound and sublime poem, or that a haiku is an amazing poetic form, that we shouldn't bother learning and studying it further...

It's a noble thought and effort to obtain a degree in anything. But you also have to look at what the job opportunities are for that degree that you will be paying for, for the rest of your born days. A music degree can get you into an orchestra. A recording degree can get you a job at McDonald's. And maybe later as the manager? And then you won't have to worry about where your next meal might be coming from. Which many musicians do worry about, frequently. So really, a degree in business with a minor in music is the way to go. Whereas with that degree, you'll learn all that you need to learn about recording and how to make coffee and clean the bathrooms. When you might need to fall back on McDonald's?