Mark,

> I can understand for EQ & dynamics that a good analog unit would be better <

I would dispute that. There's no inherent reason a plug-in compressor or EQ should be worse than an analog model, and I can think of several reasons a well-designed plug-in could be better. A plug-in has the potential to be much cleaner, and a plug-in compressor or gate can look ahead and see what's coming before it gets there! So while a good analog model can have a very fast attack time, a plug-in can respond even faster - literally instantly.

> I just need a good Reverb <

Reverb is by far the most difficult effect to implement, and this is where you'll find more variation between brands. As you probably know, reverb is really just many closely spaced echoes. But it takes a lot of computing horsepower to create those echoes, so designers have to balance density of the echoes with how much of the CPU power they'll use up. This trade-off happens with high-end stand-alone digital reverbs too, but in that case the entire CPU is available.

That said, my favorite plug-in pack is the UltraFunk:

http://www.ultrafunk.com

I use it with Sonar and SoundForge, and all of the effects are very high quality. The reverb is excellent too. And it's affordable and not copy protected.

--Ethan

Hi,

The fact that both hardware units & softwareplug-insare digital, has actually nothing to do with the quality of the effects, except that the singnal is transfered digitally. What really counts as the QUALITY is the preciseness of the algorithm implemented in the unit (or the plug-in). It is really a huge subject, but I just wanted to break your illussion that the only thing that counts is the AD/DA conversion. Conversion is just the first ring in the audio chain, and indeed a VERY important one. But have in mind that every FX process (frequency attenuation, dynamics, delay/ reverb,..) has it's by-products (phenomenons as aliasing, combfilters caused by phase incoherence, etc. ) that significantly degrade the sound, making it loose the details it originally had. To put it simple, more expencive units or plugins have more sophisticated and better optimized algorithms, and therefore sound more natural and musical, retaining more details of the original sound. And, unfortunatelly there still are no good sounding Reverbplug-insin the DirectX/VST format. (the only good sounding plugins are those made for the dedicated hardware cards, such as Protools TDM systems and even the TC powercore card). And I agree with Ethan in that there indeed are some really good sounding software EQ's & Compressors (like the Wave's stuff, and especially the plugins for the UAD1 card I recently got). And do you really think that all those professionals around the globe would pay such enormous amounts of money for the expencive units orplug-insif those plugins bundled with the sequencer sounded the same ? :)

Hypo,

I agree with everything you said except:

> more expencive units or plugins have more sophisticated and better optimized algorithms <

In my experience cost has little to do with quality. And not just with audioplug-ins but with most things including a can of beans at the supermarket. There's no reason a good plug-in has to cost a lot, and most of what makes the Waves stuff so expensive is advertising and greed. In my opinion, of course! :D

--Ethan

Greetings Ethan,

Unfortunately, cost has everything to do with the quality if you are talking professional gear. There indeed are some really inexpencive home/project studio solutions that sound GREAT (like the UAD1 card I mentioned earlier), but if you want to get that extra sparkle you hear on professional records, you'll have to pay a lot of money, and that is a sad & a prooven fact. For home recording, there are some great cheap plugins that surely do the job well, but my experience tells me that it just isn't quite good enough for the professional work. If it were the case, all the big names (like the mentioned Waves or Protools TDM) would very soon loose their jobs to the competition, which, as we all know, is not the case... I agree that advertising & marketing have a lot to do with it, but not all of the producers over the world are that stupid :)
- By the way, you have my honest compliments for a very fine and usefull text on the control room acoustics ! (It was about time someone sit & wrote a survival guide like that, not a whooping 1000 pages long book on nuclear-laser-vibrometry in acoustics) All the newbies planing to make a home or a project studio control room should definitely read it ! Cheers !

Hey Folks,
Ethan, I second the motion that your acoustics forum is one of the best things on the web. If I end up adding a second room we will be good buddies!
I agree thatplug-insCOULD be great for dynamics and eq, and there are some that are good (waves, bomb factory, UAD), but none ARE great. My outboard compressors wasteplug-ins(I have just got an 1176 and it is d'man, the Valley People 610 continues to amaze, and I am quite happy with my RNC).
I don't believe that the computer power is there yet. I suspect that, like 2 inch Studer tape machines, it will still be a while until digital pulls even with analog.
I find that the less I do withplug-insthe better things sound. I don't mean to sound negative, I do see a future forplug-ins but I think that good outboard gear is miles ahead in the race. Cheers, Doc

Hypo,

> Unfortunately, cost has everything to do with the quality if you are talking professional gear. <

That just hasn't been my experience. And again, the principle applies to all consumer items, not just pro audio gear. Lots of people overpay for lots of things. I think marketing people call this "perceived value" when you can squeeze more money out of folks for exactly the same thing that could be had for less. Or for something that may be slightly better but no improvement was necessary. Premium grade gasoline comes to mind.

As forplug-ins I actually put the UltraFunkplug-insahead of the Waves stuff, even though it costs like 1/4 as much. It sounds every bit as good, yet for equivalent modules uses less of the CPU. So in this case you have superior DSP coders who are willing to sell their work for less money.

At least that's how I see it. :D

> you have my honest compliments for a very fine and usefull text on the control room acoustics ! <

Thanks very much!

--Ethan

Doc,

> I don't believe that the computer power is there yet. <

The raw power is more than there. Whether you think the software coders have done a good enough job at offering the kinds of sounds you like is another matter. Likewise:

> I suspect that, like 2 inch Studer tape machines <

I know that some people prefer analog tape over digital, and that's their choice. But in that case - like with your compressor comparison - it's a very subjective evaluation. I'd argue exactly the opposite, since a modern digital recorder is measurably and audible cleaner than any Studer could ever hope for. But I appreciate that a lot of folks prefer the sound of a Studer anyway. And I can't argue with that!

--Ethan

Hey guys,
I'm going to jump in on this one if you don't mind, well, you have no choice..so there! :D

hey guys, what are your preferences between:
a)compressors: drawer, BF emulations , C1
b)equalizers; analog channel, Q10, Eq sat
c)reverbers: true verb, TC verb, reberb one
d)multiband: c4, Master X, MC2000

BTW.. Ethan´s manual is a must!
:)
:p

:roll: Great discussion but may have missed my request

>>Without getting too technical, is there some common agreement on what (Reverb, Dynamics & EQ) plugins are great versus crappy?
<<

I read Waves and Ultrafunk. I assume that the UAD requires the hardware. Maybe the answer to take away is...

>>unfortunatly there still are no good sounding Reverbplug-insin the DirectX/VST format<<

So Waves is the common agreement for good sounding DXi plugins?

I did mean to spark a debate on analog versus digital. Just an observation from much reading that ADDA conversions subtrack from audio quality and the fact that professionals are very much pleased by analog EQ and dynamics unit characteristics. Also, the insult when plugin companies sell there software as a duplicate of the sought after analog pieces.

Anyway I was just looking for a quality sounding plugin recommendations. I played with a Ozone demo - nice and easy to use but I have no good frame of reference for quality.

I downloaded some ultrfunk demos but I get a not Win32 application error when trying to run them.

Thanks
Mark

Mark,

> ADDA conversions subtrack from audio quality <

Well, not nearly as much as even one generation on the finest analog tape recorder!

> I played with a Ozone demo - nice and easy to use but I have no good frame of reference for quality. <

There's always the bypass button. Does it sound okay or better as you A/B the original and processed versions? You can assess plug-in quality exactly as you would any other device. By listening and comparing.

> I downloaded some ultrfunk demos but I get a not Win32 application error when trying to run them. <

Wow, that's strange. I've used the UltraFunk pack with every version of Windows from 98SE to XP Pro, and I've never had a moment's trouble.

--Ethan

Yeah, Ozone is pretty cool, but it's real CPU intensive(depending on how many features you use). Full-up it will add about 30% :D

I have been trying to get demos to do some A/B. So far I have Ozone and Ultrafunk. I also have a Waves demo getting mailed.

The Ultrafunk guy said that my download may have been missing a chunk :d: Then he emailed them to me.

I expect that all of these (at least based on price) will sound great. How to decide on the winner is the tough part

Mark

Mark,

> I have been trying to get demos to do some A/B. <

Of course, I meant to A/B the original and processed version, using one plug-in at a time, to assess the quality and effectiveness of that one plug-in.

> I expect that all of these (at least based on price) will sound great. <

Yes, they do. It's not difficult to code an EQ and make it sound good. Again, I truly believe that price is set more by what the market will bear than by quality. Not to say there aren't crappyplug-ins because there are. But there's a lot of great stuff out there too, and it doesn't all cost a lot.

I'll also mention, at the risk of being flamed, that a product's success is often due more to "momentum" than quality. Some famous engineer uses a Brand Rex Confabulator on a project, and all of a sudden everyone wants one so they too can make hits. I see this all the time in the audio biz. Too many folks wrong believe the gear is what makes a successful recording, when in fact the talent on both sides of the glass is far more important.

--Ethan

I agree. Marketing includes relating the product to authority figures. Relating a product to a "star" does wonders - 4 out of 5 dentists prefer... Human instinct reponds regardless of the lack of logic.

The capitalistic forces search for the bottom price that provides profit and peer balance.
A company that sells significantly cheaper than its competitors is either very noble (without greed) or has less invested(overhead, programmers, etc...) or has not realized its peer group pricing structure. With software and its very nuanced quality edge the star power has significant weight.

I would really like to find plugins that gives me good visual feedback. I am fairly new at recording at least when it comes to tring to master it. I like Ozone because of its informative interface.

What I meant on A/B was with versus without and also product A versus B, an so on
Mark

This is a great thread, and I hope everyone will continue to follow it. Please keep the opinions flowing!
Alecio, my prefs are this:
-Waves for gates, Eq, verbs.
-Bomb Factory for compressors, amp sim, and Moog stuff.
I think we can all agree that some success is due to marketing or "percieved value". For instance, I think most people would agree that the RNC is better than anything else until the price range climbs above $600 (at that point you have to start asking yourself if the compressor you are considering buying is worth it's "weight" in RNCs- is a $600 compressor worth three RNCs?). Cheers, Doc

I've only ever played with the demos of these products so take my opinion FWIW, but I concur with Ethan about the Ultrafunk pack. Very nice sounding. Another outfit I liked was the Sonic Timeworks plugs, particularly the mastering ones. Also, although limited in its variety, the Freeverb plug is a great sounding little (free) reverb.

BTW, if you haven't already, check out the directxfiles.com site, download some demos and decide for yourself which sound best.

Scott,

> download some demos and decide for yourself which sound best. <

One other important factor to consider is copy protection. I refuse to buy any software that is copy protected, and that policy has saved my bacon more than once. Rip Rowan, editor of http://www.prorec.com has a scathing online article there about the extreme hassles he endured with Wave's use of PACE copy protection. And Rip is not a pirate - he paid for it!

--Ethan

You're right Ethan, copy protection can be a real pain. We purchased the Waves Native plugs for Digi001/PTLE on Win98. It's a fairly stable system since it's audio use only, but we did have to reload the OS once, and having to get re-authorized was a drag. I couldn't say the PACE caused the corruption requiring reloading although who knows. We haven't experienced the problems Rip described in his article. That would be really infuriating.

BTW, we hardly ever use the Waves plugs. PTLE is used mostly as just an audio editor. We fly tracks back and forth between the PC and an Alesis HD24. All tracking and mixing is done through an analog board with traditional outboard gear.

Scott,

> I couldn't say the PACE caused the corruption requiring reloading although who knows. <

To me that's the least of the problems. The real issue is that software companies come and go all the time. If a program requires intervention from the vendor whenever it's installed, the day they go out of business is the last day you'll ever install that program again. No matter how much you paid for it. No matter how many projects you have that rely on it.

With DAWs and other programs that load project files you lose everything you ever did with that program!

--Ethan

I think Ethan has an excellent point here. Doc

Ya know
I never looked at it that way Ethan! Good point!
Match...Set! lol

I myself don't mind it so much as the hardware key protect will always work, never have to get a new challenge or code to re authorize it.

Even if you install it on a brand new machine.

With Waves, or anything PACE based you have to authorize it and hope they email you the challenge response back within 14 days! lol

Opus

Opus,

> I myself don't mind it so much as the hardware key protect will always work <

Those break too. If you haven't seen my article about copy protection, it's listed near the end of the page at http://www.ethanwiner.com/articles.html. There's a quote from Todd Souvignier, Marketing Director of Arboretum Systems (Hyperprism, Ray Gun) where he says, in part, "The dongles in particular were a nightmare--they cost upwards of $20 each and have lots of defectives."

--Ethan

I don´t think Waves and Tc works would have bankrupcy so easy. They are big success companies. But Ethan, you realy called my attention for that.

a few issues:

a) floppy based authorizers are a pain in the ass. The stupid floppy might get dirty, corrupted, lost and so. I bought an USB VST drive from smartmedia, recommended for PT and is a nightmare to make it workand recognize authorizers like the one of AMP FARM.

b) Challenge code/response code seems to be the easiest to me. But your point made me worry!

c) lots of guys are complaining about this pace /key isue. For people like me that live quite far, it would be a pain in the ass having to wait for more than 2 days. Oka, they shall send a temporary/demo period authorization via email/account.

d) why a company like pace is doing that? sorry for my ignorance, but I had never heard about this company 2 years ago. are they in the music businees, manufacturing?

Nice weekend

Alécio,

> I don´t think Waves and Tc works would have bankrupcy so easy. They are big success companies. <

No offense, but that is incredibly naive. Lots of software companies much larger and more successful than those guys have gone out of business in recent years. Passport was probably the largest sequencer maker in the early 1990s, and they've been out of business for many years now. I still use Encore, their music publishing program - all of my works are in that format - and I would have lost everything three computers ago if not for my policy to never buy protected programs.

Besides Passport, there's Opcode, another huge and seemingly invincible company, plus many more I can't think of at the moment. And Sonic Foundry almost went out of business last year, which would have left millions of customers with dead software. And they may still fail if they don't learn how to manage their business properly.

> Challenge code/response code seems to be the easiest to me. But your point made me worry! <

And well it should worry you. Even if the company is still around, what happens if you're doing a session, something crashes and you have to reinstall, but your Internet is down?

--Ethan

Ethan, I agree. Big and successful doesn't always equate to established and stable. Often with software companies, products are limited(i.e Epic/games, Steinberg/audio, ect.). IMHO this only compounds possible corporate instabilities. This situation, paired with management difficulties, can prove to be fatal very quickly. Even very large, very successful and very diverse companies are not immune to mismanagement downfalls. Worldcom and Enron are two perfect examples of that.
Good thing they didn't issue challenge keys, lol. :s:

Are there any suggestions on what would be a good system of piracy protection (I realize the answer to this question would be worth tens of millions of dollars if completely anwered)? Doc

Hey, doc - what about rentingplug-ins
Instead of that 15 day free demo, maybe something that we could use for longer time? Yes, it looks crazy but...

Ethan, you are right. But TC has lots of different departments, I think it would not be the case. I cannot speak for Waves. Besides hardware Max and L2 and the current bundled plugs, do they have any other market?

Doc,

> Are there any suggestions on what would be a good system of piracy protection <

Do you mean copy protection? The answer is pretty obvious to me, anyway: Sell a good product for a reasonable price, and brag in your ads that you don't use copy protection and explain why.

Most people want to do the right thing, and will gladly buy a program if it's a good value and if they can feel good about the program and the company. Yes, some people will pirate the program, but they probably wouldn't have paid for it anyway.

--Ethan

Alécio,

> what about rentingplug-ins <

That's even worse. What do you tell a client who calls six months after the mix is done and says they want to mix it again?

> TC has lots of different departments, I think it would not be the case. <

Are you willing to risk never being able to open any of your projects again in the future? I'm sure not willing to take that risk! All it takes is for your hard drive to fail. If you can't get a response code from the vendor you will never ever install that software again!

Maybe you don't think that's the end of the world for a plug-in. But how about your DAW program with which you have done hundreds of client projects? If the software company is gone and your hard drive fails, or you get a new computer, you have lost everything. I can't believe more people don't appreciate the seriousness of this risk.

--Ethan

Ethan,
Do you really think there are enough customers to succeed with a low cost/no copy protection model? I could see this working for windows or some other mass-distributed software, but small market stuff like audioplug-ins These aren't sarcastic or rheotorical questions, I am trully interested to hear more about your ideas.
Thanks, Doc

Doc,

> I could see this working for windows or some other mass-distributed software, but small market stuff like audioplug-ins <

First, copy protection does not stop piracy. If you've ever visited a warez newsgroup you will know that every program that is even minimally popular is available for free downloading within days of being released. All the dongle-protected programs are cracked and posted, those that use challenge / response are cracked and posted, and programs that use only a serial number are posted. Either the crack removes all protection, or the crackers supply a serial number. Or they post a program that generates a response code customized for the particular program.

So, if the protection doesn't protect against piracy, and paying customers have to endure the serious risk they won't be able to use the program in the future, then the protection helps nobody and hurts paying customers. Even more pathetic is how many people are willing to put up with this crap! Especially galling is to fork over thousands of dollars for something like the Wavesplug-ins and not only risk losing all your work in the future, but also risk ruining your computer because the PACE protection is so intrusive.

Second, the notion that only huge mega-corps like Microsoft can survive without copy protection is also wrong. Some of the largest and most successful music software companies do not use copy protection. Band-in-a-Box and Cakewalk come to mind, and there are others. There's little gained by repeating all the points made in my article about this, so again I refer you to my web page:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/articles.html

Look for "Copy Protection: The Audio Industry's Dirty Little Secret" near the bottom of the page.

--Ethan

ethan , I do agree with you. I really don´t buy this idea of Pace. Quite intrusive, where does this company come from?
Pople like me, living quite far. what about a damaged key?
.
I had to pay for the upgrade to 3.2/3.5/3.6. In last than one year, I am already having to pay to go 4.x. Of course I will not do that.

My old spare Waves 2.3 still has that dongle
Maybe someone could steal it thinking as if it was a mono cable from Mars, but I think it is much safer than the pace key.

Lots of people are fucked up with this new thing. If we analyze, olnly the honest guys get fucked up. Pay, problems authorizing and so. Crack users shall be laughing now...

The only software I know which people who pirate everything else avoids pirating are games whose companies run gaming servers (Diablo 2, Warcraft 3, etc. from Blizzard come to mind ) which require you to have an original copy. Excellent business model - Original copy allows you access to the online community of sorts.

This I don't see happening with audio tools and/or plugins anytime soon, of course.

Wonder what would happen should Blizzard go bankrupt.

Ethan,
Thanks, will read your article. Great to have you around. I told audiokid that I think your forum is the best place on the net for sound treatment info. Doc

Dont think i'm trying to stick up for the warez hounds out there, but if software wasnt so expensive, companies wouldnt go out of business.

why is it i can spend £30 on a computer game, but i have to spend £500 on a sequencer????

I see no difference between the two. People have worked and put blood and sweat into all aspects of the production. Its not like we get anything extra when we buy that lovely boxed Cubase or Logic. So why is it so expensive??

Companies like Imagineline (ok, so they're Cakewalk now but still...) Can afford to knock out programs that rival the bigger companies programs, and they dont charge extortionate prices.

At the end of the day, i think if they brought thier prices down, and stopped being so fuckin aristocratic about things, then more people would buy thier software.

You may laugh, but Dance Ejay for all its money, has some excellent features that i'd much prefer to use than Cubase.

Making Waves is another great program thats cheap for the bedroom muso.

Its not only the bedroom muso's that would benefit too. I know there are a lot of successful people here, they have thier mass amounts of analog gear, and va synths, and Lexicon reverbs, which they just throw in the trash when it breaks, and buy another.... you people would benefit too.

Call me crazy, but i think a combination of Dance Ejay, Making Waves and Fruityloops certainly rivals the likes of Logic and Cubase.

I mean, you get a few synths with Cubase, you still have to go out and spend mass amounts on plugins!

Thats the downside to computers though isnt it. You dont realise it, but you have to get the latest plugin, or try out the latest rompler package, when at the end of it, your music/production is no better.

Originally posted by Matrixmillion:
why is it i can spend £30 on a computer game, but i have to spend £500 on a sequencer????

Because people don't make money by working with a computer game. ;)

Originally posted by Matrixmillion:
why is it i can spend £30 on a computer game, but i have to spend £500 on a sequencer????

Because people don't make money by working with a computer game. [[Wink]]

You also have to remember that there is a potentially much larger market for computer games than DAW software

Originally posted by Matrixmillion:
why is it i can spend £30 on a computer game, but i have to spend £500 on a sequencer????

Originally posted by lambchop:
Because people don't make money by working with a computer game. ;)

This has been a major gripe of mine for a long time. Companies like Digidesign and Apple somehow seem to feel that because they market tools for people that make money with them, that somehow entitles them (Digidesign and Apple) to a portion of the take. They "sell" the product, but in reality, because of the price and the product release cycle, it really is more like licensing. Unfortunately for some, it turns out to be impossible to amortize the purchase before it becomes obsolete or no longer viable in the market place. This freezes out a lot of people. It's like they are saying, "Screw you if you can't pay our corporate blackmail." That is why I am happy to see and support PC's and viable software options to the Digidesign / Apple lock on the marketplace. Kurt

Ethan:

"Steinberg's (Cubase, ReBirth) position is typical.."

Just wanted to add that Rebirth is made by the swedish company http://www.propellerheads.se NOT Steinberg.

And because I'm Swedish I had to react ;)