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coldsnow 25 May 2001

I know that Crane Song and Apagee are great. But what others has anyone tried? Are there any that suck?

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atlasproaudio Fri, 05/25/2001 - 18:59

Drawmer is coming out with a 24 bit 96K 2 ch A/D soon, haven't heard it yet, but if the masterflow series is an idication of quality it should be great. What is your definition of suck? One man's garbage is anothers treasure, and its better to have an Alesis AI-3 than nothing at all if thats all you can afford. The Lucid stuff is a good quality affordable solution, it depends on your expectations and budget.

Nathan Eldred
Atlas Pro Audio, Inc.
http://www.atlasproaudio.com
813.662.5028

coldsnow Sat, 05/26/2001 - 03:11

I'm using a Yamaha AW4416 which is a 16 track HD with a board similar to the O2R. It has 24 bit converters yet I'd say the converters on my 20 bit ADAT are better. Things that go in digitally sound great on it though. I'd like to upgrade the converters without getting into a several thousand dollar unit. Is the ADAT AI whatever pretty good?

anonymous Sat, 05/26/2001 - 11:34

I've tried the AD8000, Hedd, and a Lucid 9624. The AD8000 is good, but too expensive, the Hedd is great but too expensive for only two channels. I think the Lucid is better than both and is the least expensive. I did an acoustic guitar recording into ProTools, multing the signal into a Hedd, an 888/24, and the Lucid. I didn't get an 8000 to try for this paricular test. The Lucid was IMHO by far the best sounding in an A/B comparison. The 888/24 sounded very plastic-like and one-dimensional. The Hedd was cool, but like most Crane Song products, it's just too expensive to justify buying it, when the Lucid sounds so good and is so much cheaper.

anonymous Sat, 05/26/2001 - 12:23

Originally posted by Melange:
The AD8000 is good, but too expensive.

I blindtested the AD8000 against the Swissonic AD24 (wich is also known under the Musicnet & Sonorus brand btw)... Different mixes and instruments thru them...
I picked the Swissonic 8 out of 10 times...

Just my two cents...

(btw I hate the Alesis AI3)

GIE

anonymous Mon, 05/28/2001 - 01:59

Originally posted by coldsnow:
Is that the 1/2 rack or full rack Swisssonic converter you are talking about.

the 1/2 rack....

But I'm not saying everybody should buy the Swissonic... I was trying to point out that you should blind test some converters that fit your budget and then let your ears decide (affected by your taste of course ;) )

just my 2cents...

GIE

anonymous Thu, 06/07/2001 - 10:38

Just FYI, http://www.panasonic.com/proaudio
has information on the new Panasonic 8 channel WZ-96 series. There are two 1U models, one with (high quality) mic-pres and the other is line level only. They both come standard with AES/EBU and Litepipe outs and the removable card slot allow for support of all current and future transmission formats. These units are designed to be very energy effient so that very little heat is generated by this 96kHz units. As you might already know heat is the worst enemy of converters.
There are already several world class engineers and mastering facilities using them in their 5.1 mix rooms. One such Grammy nominated engineer call them "magical"...

They retail in the U.S. for under $2,500.00.
:)

Guest Sat, 06/09/2001 - 16:00

I've ben using my Crane Song HEDD for 2 channel stuff, and for "adding the processing once it's already in the digital domain" stuff...and the Lucid 8824 [8 channel A/D-D/A] for the rest of it. I've been working mostly with Digital Performer, and we've been doing the "mix" balance in that rather than bringing it out to a desk...so one has been plenty.

As always...YMMV.

Faeflora Sun, 06/17/2001 - 12:27

Well if you buy the MOTU it comes with 8 channels of ADDA conversion.

With the RME you'll have to buy more 8 channel converters.

I'm selling my MOTU 2408 because I hate MOTU hardware (haven't used their software) because IMO it's crappily put together with cheapass components. I've heard their power supplies buzzing, dealt with malfunctioning PCI cards, badly put together PCI cards (crookedly mounted firewire jacks etc). Their ASIO drivers are also TERRIBLE. Grr. I'm going to try the RME hammerfall card. I already have an ADI-8 PRO converter and it sounds smoother than the 2408, but I can't really tell because my room currently sucks and I can't hear stuff that detailed. I might buy an additional Lucid 8-channel or dB or Prism converter after I sell (see below) my 2408.

If you want my 2408 MkII w/PCI-324 give me an email :D :D :D and i'll ship it to you for free to get rid of it :p. it works fine, i had to trade both the breakout box and pci card in to get functioning pieces.

oh, they're tech support is also HORRIBLE. email support is non-existant and if you call their tech support phone line, and actually don't get a busy signal, expect to wait at least an hour before hearing a non-computer generated voice. oh their warranty also sucks, it's 3 months. and their warranty product replacement is VERY slow. :eek:

erockerboy Tue, 06/19/2001 - 08:28

I'm selling my MOTU 2408 because I hate MOTU hardware.

Just as counterpoint to the above... I've found my MOTU stuff to be solidly built, great-sounding and totally reliable. I use their 2408 and 1224 audio interfaces, along with a scad of their MIDI/synchro gear, and I've never had any significant prob's with ANY of it. I've never experienced anything like dead PCI cards or crooked FireWire jacks. In fact installation on all my MOTU pieces has been a breeze, without fail. The few driver-related issues I've dealt with have always been addressed quickly by MOTU's TS peeps (in fact, several times I got 2 or 3 email followups from different MOTU staffers, making sure all was well).

To be fair, I've always used MOTU hardware with MOTU apps, so I've never had to deal with ASIO drivers and hence have no comment on Fae's issues there. Plus my interaction with MOTU TS has been via email, not phone. I gotta say, the guys have always been VERY prompt in getting back to me. I have heard from several folks that trying to reach MOTU on the fone is friggin' impossible. Oh well, everything can't be perfect. All I know is that my li'l Digital Performer rig at the house costs less, does more and sounds better doing it than my big ProTools TDM getup downtown.

Mo-TU! Mo-TU!

:)

Fae's experience IS unfortunate, tho. Good luck with the RME stuff.....

Logan Wed, 06/20/2001 - 06:23

I'm using the RME ADI pro 8 and the Tango 24. I like the RME better but the Tango is okay. I've tried also the Apogee Rosetta and Gadget labs. The RME is as good as the Rosetta and way better than the Gadjet labs. The RME ADI 8, btw, is the same as the Nuendo 8 I/O just a different face plate and it's cheaper. There was a test in the German Mag PMA where the RME ADI 8 was compared to an Apogee 8000 and was shown on bench tests to have better clock less jitter and more consisitent converters with a better noise floor. and subjectively the reviewer liked the sound better, YMMV. I'm happy with the RME stuff, but you have to try stuff for yourself, hopefully in your own room. This is a problem as alot of us don't have the luxury of having a supplier who has a wide variety of options that we we can take home. Don't know what the solution to that is, amybe Fletcher has to get into selling converters,as well, on his 30 day no problem return policy ;-). take care Logan

Jon Best Mon, 07/16/2001 - 18:41

OK, now you've got me curious. What do you think of DP's sound? As compared to Pro Tools, the D8B, or any other digital option you've heard? I'd be interested to hear what you think.

Originally posted by Fletcher:
I've ben using my Crane Song HEDD for 2 channel stuff, and for "adding the processing once it's already in the digital domain" stuff...and the Lucid 8824 [8 channel A/D-D/A] for the rest of it. I've been working mostly with Digital Performer, and we've been doing the "mix" balance in that rather than bringing it out to a desk...so one has been plenty.

As always...YMMV.

lwilliam Fri, 07/20/2001 - 13:23

I just bought the Nuendo 8 i/o because the RME ADI8-pro doesn't seem to be available anywhere in the U.S. They are the same box inside. I use it with a Digi001, so the improvement was pretty dramatic to my ears. Even 16-bit ADAT transfers into PTLE sound better with a stable clock and good d/a.

I also used the Rosetta for a while. While it's a good-sounding box, I think it's way overpriced. IMHO, it should sell for about $300-400 and the PSX should go for about $600-700 because they're only two-channel units.

You can use the RME/Nuendo for ADAT to DA-38/88 digital conversion. You can also select a single digital output (Tascam or ADAT) as well as use the analog outs at the same time.

The Steinberg/Nuendo 8 i/o can be had for under $1300.

Ang1970 Fri, 07/20/2001 - 21:21

Err, was that sarcasm?

Why wouldn't you take that seriously Nathan?

RME's 8 channel i/o supposedly specs and sounds better than the AD8000 for less than half the price... should we doubt that all Apogee gear is in the "we mark everything up 500% because our name is Apogee and you'll still buy it" category?

MichaelHammar Fri, 07/20/2001 - 22:10

We use 888/24's and an AD8000 at our studio here... I would say that Apogee's seem to soften up the low end too much for my liking and the 888/24's seem to be a bit lacking and rough sounding in the high ends thus making it sound a bit harsher.

I've put in an order to my local dealer for a Lucid AD just to see how it sounds and if it can be somewhere in between the 888/24 and the AD8000, it would really be great but I guess I'll just have to see about that...

Fletcher--I noticed you use Lucid, how would you describe the Lucid in the low end? High end?

BTW, I was going to buy one of their clock generators but got a super deal from my local dealer on an AardSync for little more than half price.... so....

Anyways, back to AD converters. Lucid opinions, comparisions?

And yes, Apogee is way overpriced for what it does. C'mon, it's been years and the prices still are up there.... I doesn't make any sense... But their new AD16 looks good! Better be better priced though or I'll end up getting some other brand...

Michael Hammar
Alfa Music, BMG

atlasproaudio Sat, 07/21/2001 - 07:31

Originally posted by Michael Hammar:

I've put in an order to my local dealer for a Lucid AD just to see how it sounds and if it can be somewhere in between the 888/24 and the AD8000, it would really be great but I guess I'll just have to see about that...

how would you describe the Lucid in the low end? High end?

BTW, I was going to buy one of their clock generators but got a super deal from my local dealer on an AardSync for little more than half price.... so....

Anyways, back to AD converters. Lucid opinions, comparisions?

And yes, Apogee is way overpriced for what it does. C'mon, it's been years and the prices still are up there....

I think you will be extremely happy with the Lucid. We added them to the dealer line card just recently after hearing what they could do, and being very impressed I might add. I was skeptical at first because the price was too good to be true. Very tight lows and smooth realistic highs. As far as Apogee being overpriced, no that wasn't sarcasm above, I just don't think that is realistic. At least not in this current time...you are right, the AD8000 has been out for how long? I just saw an SE version on Ebay for less than $6K!! Maybe there should be a A/D CD similar to the Mic Pre CD...have as many as one can think of with a shootout on various sources. I think a knowledgable tech should do independent tests and measurements on these also regarding jitter, noise floor, distortion, etc. Sometimes the benefit or advantage of one over the other is not apparent until you have 24+ channels of audio going.

anonymous Fri, 08/10/2001 - 17:53

Originally posted by Fletcher:
I've ben using my Crane Song HEDD for 2 channel stuff, and for "adding the processing once it's already in the digital domain" stuff...and the Lucid 8824 [8 channel A/D-D/A] for the rest of it. I've been working mostly with Digital Performer, and we've been doing the "mix" balance in that rather than bringing it out to a desk...so one has been plenty.

As always...YMMV.

OT here for a sec... How do you like the DP environment? I'm using v 2.7 right now and am comtemplating going to v3.0 but I'm waiting a bit for the bugs to getted worked out. I'm also looking at getting some 3rd party plug ins. Any suggestions ?

Steve

Guest Sat, 08/11/2001 - 03:17

Originally posted by SteveC:

OT here for a sec... How do you like the DP environment? I'm using v 2.7 right now and am comtemplating going to v3.0 but I'm waiting a bit for the bugs to getted worked out. I'm also looking at getting some 3rd party plug ins. Any suggestions ?

Suggestions, no, not really. I've found that I prefer the sound of 'D-P' to that of 'P-T' when I use the 'combining capabilities'. I think it's a tad easier to edit in P-T, but not enough to swing me toward using P-T in lieu of D-P.

Obviously, damn near everyone's milage varies on this one...

RecorderMan Mon, 08/13/2001 - 06:37

...back to the subject....
You know...I've seen the question asked numerous times on many boards...and one brand nobody mentions is DB Technologies. In L.A. at least, Every Top Mastering House and Every Anal- High-Budget session I've ever been involved in that needed "the best" has used their converters. The closest to straight wire I've ever heard ( not counting A&M's custom jobs).
Maybe this company doesn't want publicity because I didn't see them in the recent EQ article...but.. they smoke all comers in my opinion. They are really expensive...but, they just came out with a "blue" modular series, that is cheaper...and said to sound even better than they're original "gold" mastering reference model.

sjoko Mon, 08/13/2001 - 23:45

Some time ago, in deciding what converters to use for a new studio complex, we tested converters "till the cows came home". Tests included just about every “good” converter, at prices ranging from well under $1000 for a pair, to almost $30.000 for a set of 8.
Tests included bench testing, blind listening in normal as well as acoustically accurate environments and, at a later stage when we found out HOW to test converters, tracking as well.

As a result we came to a number of conclusions. Of cause, consider they were just our conclusions and that’s all. Here are some of them, in no particular order.

The technical specs. – A real surprise here. Well……… surprise? Guess what. Some companies must have found a miraculous way of ‘testing’. Their “A-weighted” tests, I’m sure they must have been confused and tested products with a weight hanging on them instead. Our conclusion? It is entirely possible to design a converter with a great specification, that sounds like absolute dog breath on sandpaper.
On the other hand, there were a couple which tested better than their specifications indicated. A couple only, one of them under 1 grand, the other one well into the 5 figures.

One of the first things we learned. To evaluate the quality of an A/D converter, you better listen through a damn good D/A converter!

Listen to a CD, which is 16 / 44.1, through a bad converter, and it sounds like a bad CD. Listen through a good converter, and it sounds like a CD. Listen to a brilliant converter, and it sounds like a sorta cool CD.
Lesson – You need to listen to high quality media in order to arrive at an accurate evaluation, even though the difference is audible.

Some converters which use the same chips, or chip sets, sound entirely different. Its an interaction between the digital and the analog sections, where the power supply also has a word to say.

Next lesson. The clocks of DAW’s and the vast majority of digital gear totally suck, which makes them sound bad, so to test a converter, you’ve gotta have an accurate clock!
The first time I saw a graph of the clock which was supposedly keeping the bits of my system perfectly time-aligned, I felt like giving it shock therapy for resuscitation.

The most important lesson we learned. No matter how good (or bad) a converter sounds, the only way to evaluate real quality is by stacking instruments or vocals. This is where products which appear to sound similar start showing their real characteristics. The more you stack, the more apparent the differences become.

We did the final listening tests by tracking through different A/D’s, without knowing what they were, and voting for the best one, discounting the others. After days there were two left, which were very close, both with a full, warm, smooth sound, and, compared to all the others, very good in the low as well as high ends.

The two left were the Stagetec A/D’s, the same price as something like a BMW, and not the small one, and the Lucid 2496’s, at well under a thousand bucks, so they went for the latter ones.

Hope this post helps, taking part in the tests taught me a lot.

sjoko Fri, 08/17/2001 - 21:26

Ejolson – We also tested clocks as part of the same deal, and settled for the Lucid SSG192, which was brand new at the time. It was a lot better than the commonly used Aardsync. (George Massenburg send us a Aardsync / SSG test print out, I can email you a copy if you like).
The SSG is a post production machine room tool. It has a host of features not commonly used in audio. After this comment was made Lucid designed a simple clock, just for audio, the GEN6. This is what we are using at the moment, as far as we know it’s the best clock available today. Apart from that its cheap, and they have matching distribution amps, which allows us to provide dedicated direct sync to every piece of gear. (HUGE difference in audio quality).

Mantovibe – We used 2 different D/A’s, a Lucid D/A 2496 (which does have WC I/O or can function as a clock generator itself) and the D/A portion of Stagetec’s Mastering A/D (the A/D of this dream machine has a dynamic range of 150 (!!!) dB).

mantovibe Fri, 08/17/2001 - 23:58

Hi Sjoko.
I checked the lucid web site.
It seems that the AD 9624 has a WC bnc connector but the DA 9624 does not.
Since it would be in most cases the last link
in a digital chain,it probably does't matter that much.

Did you like the sound of the DA as well?

BTW,before reading your post i was planning on buying the Swissonic AD96 and DA96,
mainly because they convert four channels of audio,provide adat and AES connection,WC i/o and don't cost too much.
Now i'm not so sure anymore.

Were they also part of your shootout ?

Thanks again

Renzo Mantovani

erockerboy Thu, 08/23/2001 - 15:44

Sjoko-- many thanks for the info! Would love to know more about the Aardsync vs. Lucid clocking test. Would you mind emailing me a copy of those test results??? Hit me at ehuber2@qwest.net if you get a chance.

FWIW, we are using Apogee AD-8000's over here and they are quite nice. We've been clocking them to Aardsync II's more or less by default. I may have to devise a little clock & converter shootout of my own, however, if those Lucid boxes are as good as everyone says.

Great thread.

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