Look for a used UREI LA3 or LA4 .... the LA3's are being re issued by UA as well but I can't say what they sound like.

You should be able to find used LA3's for around $1000 usd and LA4's for around $750 usd.

Either on of these units (used) would be better than anything new I can think of for the same price.

The UA 1176N is in your price range as well and has a wonderful sound.

I know Kurt doesn't care so much for them. But the Empirical Labs Distressor is real popular.
I'm a gonna get me one!
And if you do rock music or metal it's great for vocals and guitar. Reguardless, I hope you get something AWESOME, and of course share the info with us here on RO.
Do you mind if I ask what type of music you are most interested in recording? Sometimes guys who record the same type of music have some favorite tools they use. Like certain compressors or pre-amps with certain gentries of music.

The Distresor is already a classic and must have piece of kit but I'm not a fan of it on vocals most of the the time. The 1176 is another great must have unit that often is the right spice for vocals.

I'd be looking a used dbx 160S or 160SL that is just a little more than your budget and is a real work horse than can be used for anything. I liked and used mine so much I had to have second one. The buikt in limiter is pretty decent and has saved me from digital overs many times. I'm just about to ante up and get the digital output option for one of them.

sach16 wrote: I only want 1 channel for vocals (i use a u87 into a john hardy preamp) and i'd put it in at the front of the chain, right after the mic.
sach

Whatever you buy, you can't put it in front of the Hardy, only after it. Compressors work at line level, not mic level.

The Distressor is very versatile and can do a lot, but if you're new to recording, you're probably better off with Kurt's recommendation on the LA-3A. It sounds great on most vocals, and the controls are simple and straight-forward.

I'd stay away from the LA-4, though. It may be better than a lot of the cheap stuff, but by comparison to the LA-3A, its fairly dark and slow, and gets darker with compression.

For a moment, forget about the $1100 bucks in change you will get... just listen to the FMR-RNC before you make a choice. I find that for overly peaky vocals (in the dynamics sense of "peaky"), it just can't be beat. It is basically two stages of compression, and the results are hard to mimic with other boxes.

Of course, there are several very good comps at your price, and others have made fine suggestions, too. You just might like the unique processing approach of the RNC for your voice.

sach16 wrote: I only want 1 channel for vocals (i use a u87 into a john hardy preamp) and i'd put it in at the front of the chain, right after the mic.
sach

Hi Sach
I hope you don't mind me hijacking your thread, but, I also use a U87 for vocals and I have John Hardy on my shortlist (along with Great River and Phoenix). How do you find this mic and pre' combination?

Cheers!
John Stafford

Don't forget about the venerable dbx line. Their 160 is quite a decent compressor for about $400. Of course, their 162sl is a great compressor, but it tops out your price range by a few hundred clams.

its that guy again wrote: I know Kurt doesn't care so much for them. But the Empirical Labs Distressor is real popular.
I'm a gonna get me one!

I don't "get it " when it comes to the Distressor. But that doesn't mean it's not a great piece. I have seen and hreard them in use and they are well constructed with quality components. A lot of folks just love 'em to death, so just because I don't "get it" doesn't mean it's no good ... it just means it's not my cuppa' tea ....

In my travels I have observed that people either really love the Distressor or don't. I would encourage folks to try one out .... listen for yourself regarding the Distressor .... you may or may not like it.

If your a compressor freak and collector as I am, the Distressor is a MUST have unit. Much more flexability in tone than most.

:lol:

its that guy again wrote: You know I love you! 8)

Yeah, we all know you love Kurt. The fact is, some of us are getting concerned about just HOW much you love Kurt. I mean, pretty soon, you're going to cut off all your hair so your Avatar will look just like him. You'll change your user name to "It's that Foster again" and you'll name your children Kurt and Treena (even if you have 2 girls).

There's a movie by the name of "Single White Female." It stars Jennifer Jason Leigh and Bridget Fonda - you might wanna check it out... :wink:

J.

Too funny Jeremy

Cucco wrote: [quote=its that guy again] You know I love you! 8)

Yeah, we all know you love Kurt. The fact is, some of us are getting concerned about just HOW much you love Kurt. I mean, pretty soon, you're going to cut off all your hair so your Avatar will look just like him. You'll change your user name to "It's that Foster again" and you'll name your children Kurt and Treena (even if you have 2 girls).

There's a movie by the name of "Single White Female." It stars Jennifer Jason Leigh and Bridget Fonda - you might wanna check it out... :wink:

J.

Hey guys, many many thanks 4 all the suggestions. I've got a few ideas now to look into - the distressor, used la-3, used Tubetech CL1B, RNC, something by dbx...

The music I do is mainly rock n roll, but my style varies; my main influences are springsteen, libertines, neil young, dylan. My voice sounds a bit like dylan's. In singing I tend to have quite rapidly appearing (and disappearing) peaks, which is what I want to get rid off, with minimal colouring of the sound.... if any of those compressor/limiters are best suited to my application, then let me know... i wont be able to try before i buy. Are there any obvious main differences between any of these compressors that would help me choose?

For John - the great river and phoenix were my other 2 choices when I was buying a pre-amp too. I found this really good site online that had clips of all 3. They all sound great, but I found that the JH sounds the least coloured to me, and that's what I was after. I'm very happy with the JH. If you like colouring, go for one of the others. I cant remember where those clips are, but if you hunt around google you should be able to find them...

Again, i really appreciate your input guys, i chose a great preamp because of you a while back, and i'm sure i'll find a great compressor too!

ps. Are there any sites anyone knows of which have clips comparing compressors?

also something called the p1 at http://www.safesoundaudio.com/ seems to get great reviews, anyone know anything about this unit?

Well, I can say if you don't want the sound colored by the compressor, the distressor on many settings is not what you want. It is a pretty heavy compressor. Don't get me wrong if you back off the attack and don't engage the brit mode or harmonic distortion, you can get clean compression, but on the whole it is geared to a heavier sound.

Justin

hey guys, i've found a place selling a few old compressors - does anyone know anything about an audio&design f760xrs, or a dbx 165a? They have la-3s too but at £1000, a bit out of my reach. Are the la-4s significantly worse? i guess i may be looking between an la-4 and a new p1 - can anyone compare these?

does anyone know if old compressors hold their value well?

thanks,

sach

If those are your choices, and you can't afford the LA-3A, I would definitely go for the dbx 165A. The Vocal Stressor (F760xrs) can be pretty aggressive, and I don't think of it as super versatile.

The LA-4, to me, is not worth having unless you have a lot of other compressors around. It is, by comparison to the LA-3A, slow and dark. I don't consider it to be in the same league as many of the other great UREI/Teletronix stuff.

dbx 165A compressors go for around $500-ish around here (Nashville). I consider it to be pretty versatile, and I would think it would be a good compressor for someone new to compression.

I haven't heard the P1.

la3s

hey all, i've decided to go with kurt's advice and pick up a used LA3 that I've found for £750. Just a quick question for anyone that's used these units - I read on a post somewhere that LA3s don't have a release or ratio controls - will this limit its usefulness for my purpose at all? - mainly peak limiting with some nice compression on vocals.

thanks 4 all the help, its been much appreciated :)

The less controls that are available mean the less control you have over what it does so ya, that means it will limit it's usefulness. But at the same time it may work so well for you with it's limitations that you my not really need to have more control.

Since the LA3A is such a great all-around compressor, you should still be OK with its limited controls. Since its so simplified, so can focus more on hearing what it does on different sources.

BTW, there is a switch on the back you should be aware of that affects how much gain can be added, so there's one more control you have.

ok guys, just 1 lassssssst question - i can buy either an LA3A at $1200 or an LA3A at $1450 (with a new TB4 opto coupler module) which has the Bob Clearmountain Mod. About the mod I found this quote from Bob on the net:

"it made them usable. It doesn't change the sound; it just makes them quieter. For some reason, maybe for radio, only a very small percentage of the available gain was actually being used and the signal was way down into the noise floor. The mod is a pad that forces you to turn the input level up two or three times over what it would be normally without affecting the threshold."

Is the LA3A so noisy that its worth paying for the mod, or for my use (mild compression & limiting vocals with john hardy pre and u-87) will I be fine?

I hope someone can point me in the right direction...

I never had a problem with them ..... as long as you run it in a +4 system, there should be no gain issues. I'm not too sure what Mr Clearmountian is referring to.

The lack of knobs makes them very simple to dial in .. set the threshopld, adjust the make up gai and you are off! Keep in mind the LA3 is not a limiter ... it's a compressor. If you want something that limits and compresses, look to the UREI 1176 or 1178s.

Yeah, I'm not too familiar with this mod either.

The LA-3A works just fine as it is. I've never noticed a problem with excess noise. Sure, there's some, but not what I would call "excess." Certainly not enough that I feel the need to do anything about it!

J. 8-)

Distressor

hey guys, thanks again for replying.

kurt - i thought the la3a was both a compressor and limiter - everywhere i search on the net it is listed as a compressor/limiter, and the picture of the one i might buy (the mod-ed one that is, has a switch between compressor and limiter on the front).

Does the original have a limit-compression switch? If not, can it not be set to function as a limiter (or does some compression always have to happen when limiting... which i guess is just compression)

Please help clear this up for me, and if it cant be used as a limiter only i guess i might have to go for the 1176 instead... my main use at the mo, is limiting on vocals which have suddenly appearing peaks (ie very dynamic), some compression is welcome, but the main thing i'm after is getting rid off the peaks - can the la3a do this or not?

thanks,

sach

The LA3's I had didn't have a switch to select between compression and limiting. They were modded with switches that allowed them to be used in a stereo configuration.

I think the Clearmountian thing is in reference to the much higher levels that older UREI gear was capable of running at. There is a high / low slider switch for gain on the back of the older LA3's .... in the high setting they run at a nominal level of +8dB!

Compression and limiting are really the same thing only compression usually refers to ratios below 8:1 while limiting usually indicates a ratio of 10:1 or higher ... don't ask about the ratios in between those 2 arbitrary numbers ... I guess those are the "Twilight Zone" settings ..... :lol:

thanks 4 clearing that up kurt - about what you said that i'd be ok if running into a +4 system. Could you explain what you mean by that please?

I run into a roland digital 8 tracker (840ex) at the moment. The input level dial runs from +4 to -50. Since the amplifier in the system is rubbish, i always keep inputs set to 0.

I find that I have to push my john hardy pre to +42 on vocals (u87 mic) to get a level strong enough, and I occasionally get bad clipping at peaks... (something the la3 will obviously help get rid off, and hopefully alllow me to put up the gain on the pre even more without clipping)

Does this sound like i'll be ok with the la3a without the low noise mod or should i play it safe and go for the mod-ed one?

Really appreciate your help kurt, i'd bne lost without it!

Distressor, for sure!

They rule!

I find that I have to push my john hardy pre to +42 on vocals (u87 mic) to get a level strong enough, and I occasionally get bad clipping at peaks...

The first thing to do is to determine where the clipping is occuring. I doubt that it is coming from the M-1, assuming it is set for the optimum gain for the situation. A gain setting of 42dB is neither right or wrong. As long as it does not result in an output level so high that clipping occurs (in the M-1 or elsewhere), or so low that it is competing with the residual noise of some piece of equipment further down the signal path, it is OK. Simple formula:

INPUT LEVEL + GAIN = OUTPUT LEVEL

So, what are the output levels of the M-1, according to the meter?

I normally calibrate the VU-1 meters so that a reading of 0VU on the 20-segment meter scale (the last of the 15 yellow LEDs) represents an output level of +4dBu (normal operating levels for most professional equipment, a voltage of about 1.228V). Therefore, a reading of +10VU on the meter scale (the last of the five red LEDs) represents an output level of +14dBu. The PEAK LED ("PK") is normally calibrated to turn on when the output level reaches +22dBu. The actual clipping point of the M-1 is specified as +24dBu, but is actually almost +26dBu. So even when the "PK" LED turns on, there is almost 4dB of headroom beyond that point before clipping occurs.

If the "PK" LED turns on once in a great while, there probably is no clipping occuring in the M-1. You are getting close, but it is probably not clipping. If the "PK" LED turns on often, TURN THE GAIN DOWN! The maximum output level of the M-1 (+24dBu by the spec, almost +26dBu actual) is greater than most other equipment can handle at their inputs, resulting in clipping in the OTHER gear, not the M-1.

Either your gain setting of the M-1 is so high that the M-1 itself is clipping (TURN IT DOWN), or the M-1 is OK but some piece of equipment after the M-1 is not able to handle levels that high and is clipping.

Your comment makes it sound like the M-1 is clipping. Either the gain of the M-1 is too high, or there is a piece of equipment AFTER the M-1 that is clipping, or your vocalist has wild swings in level.

John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
http://www.johnhardyco.com

Hi John - i'm sorry I didnt mean to give the impression that I was in any way unhappy with the M1 - its a fanastic piece of equipment, which I'm very very happy with. It does miraculous things to my voice! The only reason I occassionally go into clipping is because of large swings in volume levels, which is what a limiter/compressor will help with. Of course as soon as it clips, I turn the level down on the M1 a bit, but a limiter/compressor will mean that I can turn up the gain further without getting clipping.

Anyway, that's an aside - kurt, you've been really helpful, if you could just quickly explain what you mean by a +4 system i could tell if i'll be ok with an un-mod-ed LA3A (i'm running into a roland vs 840 - digital 8 tracker). Do you think I'll be ok running into this system as far as noise from the LA3 is concerned?

Thanks,

sach

Of course as soon as it clips, I turn the level down on the M1 a bit

The questions still remains: What piece of equipment is actually clipping?

John Hardy

sach16 wrote: Of course as soon as it clips, I turn the level down on the M1 a bit, but a limiter/compressor will mean that I can turn up the gain further without getting clipping.

Yeah, I don't think dude quite gets it. If you are clipping at the preamp (a bit unlikely) the compressor will not solve this. It might make the clipping noise sound a little quieter, but it will not remedy the clipping. The compressor WILL however help remedy the clipping you may be incurring at the input of your recorder. As long as you keep the compressor's gain knob at a reasonable level.

I wish I had gotten to start out recording on such fancy gear.... :(

Reggie;

If you are clipping at the preamp (a bit unlikely) the compressor will not solve this.

That is, more or less, what I'm trying to get at.

This is also the reason why I put a lot of effort into the design of the VU-1 meter of the M-1 (and M-2, and Jensen Twin Servo). It is critical to know what the levels are at the output of the preamp.

The instrument or voice being recorded can be anywhere from whisper-soft to painfully loud, and the microphone being used to record it can have a very low output level (such as a ribbon mic) or a very high output level (newer condenser mics, etc.). So, you basically don't know what the heck the results will be in terms of the final output level of the preamp. The meters can be extremely helpful in getting the output levels to a good and useable point. Not too high, not too low.

The engineer also needs to know what the maximum input levels are for all of his/her equipment. The M-1 can provide output levels of almost +26dBu, but there is a lot of equipment out there that cannot handle levels that high at their inputs. The result: The M-1 is doing just fine, but the next piece of equipment in the signal path is distorting.

I once had a customer who had an A/D converter made by Wadia. What a piece of CRAP! Its input circuit was operating from power supply voltages that were ridiculously low, +/-5VDC, so any input signal higher than about +10dBu would start to clip. Even worse, it had a level control so that you could turn the level down AFTER it had already been clipped by the input circuitry, and AFTER this level control they had a meter that would tell you that the level was OK. It's like driving a 12-foot truck under an 11-foot bridge, getting the top 1-foot sheared off of the truck, then someone comes along and measures the truck and says "It's only 11-feet high, what's the problem? It will fit under the bridge."

John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
http://www.johnhardyco.com

Maybe something like this? : http://www.collegehumor.com/pictures/1598550/

Its hard to tell which is clipping, they both seem to go into overload at roughly the same point, and both m1 and my 8 tracker LEDs show overload at a level before clipping occur. That said, I think its probably the 8 tracker though, so a compressor will sort that out hopefully.

The specs of my 8-tracker say INPUT -50 to +4 dbm, INPUT impedence, 20 kilo-ohms, and i set the input to 0dbm, as I don't want any gain using the roland preamp. Even if i set the roland input at maximum to +4, it doesnt seem to make a difference.

I guess I'll just go for the un-mod-ed LA3A and hope for the best!

The specs of my 8-tracker say INPUT -50 to +4 dbm

That does not explain what the maximum input levels are that the 8-tracker can handle before clipping occurs. Good luck figuring out exactly where the distortion is occuring.

John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
http://www.johnhardyco.com

1300 dollar compressor.........has anyone used the api 525? i'm extremely curious to hear the piece itself but havent found the time! any opinions would be great!

ivan.

Ya, Got a pair of API 525's myself. I LOVE THEM! They are far from ideal on every source but they still can work well on any source despite their lack of full control. Sometimes they are best with no compression in the off position where you just the tone of the op amp and tranny.

I'd be looking for a used Focusrite Red-7 which I also own, which is grfeat combo unit and are now becomming lower in price since the newer ISA Blue series is all the rage.

The other $1300 I'd be looking at is the new UA LA610. Fat tube preamp and classic tube optical compressor in one box.