search this site for "RecorderMan technique". You can also search for it on youtube.

Someone may be along shortly with a link. But you can track it down quicker yourself.

It's a good technique and fairly easy to set up.
can be done with 2 or 3 mics.
enjoy

natural wrote: search this site for "RecorderMan technique". You can also search for it on youtube.

Thanks for the reply friend, yes, I'm familiar with the RecordMan and X/Y techniques. I've never applied them to my set, but I will try to experiment with those first.

The thing is that I have 4 inputs available for drums. So, I was thinking of using the new Shure ones and one of my old crappy ones (the best of them anyway).

For the RecordMan technique, I'm thinking something likie this (I like pics):

B52 doesn't show, inside kick drum, pointing to the beater, left 57 above and pointing to the snare, right 57 pointing to the snare and crappy one in front of the drum set, pointing in the center. I was thinking of placing the crappy one behind the drum set, pointing to the center but then it will be out of phase with B52 and my console doesn't have a phase invert funtion. I'm still gonna have phase problems with the B52 and the right 57 though...

For the X/Y technique, something like this:

Same as the Recordman technique, the 57s pair positioned in the center of the drum set, 90 degrees angled. Phase problems will be less than with the Recordman technique I think...

What do you think of these placements? Any other suggestions?

Thank you very much for your time.

Cheers,

John

Those are certainly standard configurations. So start with those and see how it sounds.
Also research Glyn Johns technique. (basically same as mixerman but adds snare and kick mics)
You can easily create a reverse phase cable. Just reverse the 2 wires at one of the connectors. (also make sure you clearly label the cable to avoid future hair pulling)

How do you do those drawing? Is any special software needed?

Windows, it comes with Paint.

Greener wrote: Windows, it comes with Paint.

It's MS PowerPoint actually... :) It only takes a couple of minutes for those pics to draw with it...

Also research Glyn Johns technique

Yes, I'm familiar with the GJ's technique, I'm a little skeptical about it because you need good overheads and the snare sounds sharp (I like it a bit warm).

Just reverse the 2 wires at one of the connectors

Do I need a soldering iron for that? You mean the wires that show up when you unscrew the plugs? Do you melt off the connections, reverse them and melt on?

Thank you all for your replies, I'm considering exchanging one of the 57s (I hope my girlfriend doesn't find out... :roll: ) with a couple of overheads, I think I've seen a set of 2 Behringer C-2 that has the same price as the 57, so that I could use the remaining 57 on the snare. I'm still skeptical about micing the snare though...

Still any suggestions would be much appreciated and thanks a lot for your time.

Cheers,

John

NOOOOOOO! You're about to swap the single most versatile mic on the planet for something with the B word on the side. DDon't do it, FFS!

In fact, I would go with diagram 1, but add another 57 on the snare.

MICS
Yes, keep the 2 57's. add more mics to your arsenal later. but always keep those 57's. They are your swiss army knives of mics. Your girlfried is very wise and knowledgeable. (most girlfriends would prefer that you sell your mics) So keep her and keep the mics.
Ok- 'nuff said on that

POLARITY
Yes, you'll need a soldering gun, get some silver solder and a vice. If you're not real handy with soldering, this is a great first project to work on. (believe me, there will be many more projects in your future)
Undo one of the connectors, unsolder the wires going to pins 2 & 3. (pin one is ground and stays put- and the pins are numbered if you look closely)
Reverse the wires going to pins 2& 3 and resolder.
your done.

enjoy

hackenslash wrote: NOOOOOOO! You're about to swap the single most versatile mic on the planet for something with the B word on the side. DDon't do it, FFS!

hackenslash wrote: keep her and keep the mics

I called the shop owner (good friend) and asked him if I could exchange the mic. My ear still hurts from him screaming "NOOOO"! I guess he feels the same... :lol:

So, I'll keep the 57s AND my girlfriend :lol: and try to work with what I've got. Just to sum and clarify things up a bit, I'll use 4 inputs (my share of the console), one for each 57, one for B52 and one for my old unidirectional dynamic noname one (that'a an optional one, if it messes with the overall sound of the kit, it's out of there).

I can't wait for my band to get together this weekend to experiment with the new mics, I would prefer to have them at maximum distance from the kit in order to capture the ambience of the room, let's see what kind of interference I would get from the guitar and bass to the new mics. The only real problem I had with my previous setup was that cymbals were too loud, but that's something that involves as much mic quality and positioning as room acoustics.

I'm still considering all options mentioned (and maybe a few more) for positioning the mics, I'll get back to you on that.

Thanks you guys for all your help,

John

Hello again, just a quick question regarding Glyn Johns and Recorderman techniques... Is it just me or these techniques don't take into account the 3 to 1 rule? If the distance between the OH mics and the snare is X, the distance between the mics should be 3*X. So, for a distance of 3 feet between the snare and the OH mics, there should be a distance of 12 feet between the mics to prevent phasing issues. That's a lot! Maybe I'm missing something... :?

mellitacas wrote: Hello again, just a quick question regarding Glyn Johns and Recorderman techniques... Is it just me or these techniques don't take into account the 3 to 1 rule? If the distance between the OH mics and the snare is X, the distance between the mics should be 3*X. So, for a distance of 3 feet between the snare and the OH mics, there should be a distance of 12 feet between the mics to prevent phasing issues. That's a lot! Maybe I'm missing something... :?

The recorderman and Glyn Johns setups take care of phasing by putting the microphones the same distance for the kick and snare. That part is crucial. ie d(snare to mic A)=d(snare to mic B) and d(kick to mic A)=d(kick to mic B) There will be phasing issues with the other drums. It's part of the sound. The kick and snare come though nice if you do it right, and that's what most people want.

GeckoMusic wrote: The recorderman and Glyn Johns setups take care of phasing by putting the microphones the same distance for the kick and snare.

Actually, the Glyn Johns technique doesn't take into account the kick drum cause he used a third up close mic for it (and a fourth for the snare as a matter of fact), but, nevertheless, I agree with you.

Thanks,

John

mellitacas wrote: [quote=GeckoMusic]The recorderman and Glyn Johns setups take care of phasing by putting the microphones the same distance for the kick and snare.

Actually, the Glyn Johns technique doesn't take into account the kick drum cause he used a third up close mic for it (and a fourth for the snare as a matter of fact), but, nevertheless, I agree with you.

Thanks,

John

Right, so the two microphones equal distant from the kick and snare violate the 3:1 rule, but because they are the same distance phase is not a factor (on the kick and snare) The snare and kick microphones are very close to the source, so they follow the 3:1 rule.

Hello again, our band gatherimg was postponed due to family matters... :roll:

So, I didn't have a chance to try the new mics in action with the rest of the band, I did try them on my own though (couldn't resist :oops:). The results were... well, I'll let you guys judge by yourselves, if you care to listen to [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.marirena…"]THIS[/]="http://www.marirena…"]THIS[/] sample of my recording trials. I used the B52 in the kick (low cut on), one S57 on the snare and one S57 as overhead, all inputs' pan center, no gain, no eq, just raw streaming.

If you could give me some pointers for getting this setup to sound better (gain, eq, placement etc.), I'll very much appreciate it.

Thank you for your time,

John

PS: I did try the Glyn Johns technique but the stereo image was... not stereo... :? I'll try it again, when our band, eventually, gets together... :roll:

I like the Sandman bit at the end.

The sound is a little forced to me, like it's being compressed or limited.

Sounds like the hi tom needs some tuning.
Maybe the mid tom as well.
I liked the floor tom and I liked the hat.
With some surgical EQ the kick and snr might turn out fine.
all together it's not too bad.
It would come under the heading of what I call 'A little Foggy'
It lacks clarity but it is a move in the right direction.

Greener wrote: I like the Sandman bit at the end.

Thanks, I like to test my tuning and setup with this part cause it's a song I'm familiar with, I can play dynamically with it and it uses most of the kit's pieces...

Greener wrote: The sound is a little forced to me, like it's being compressed or limited.

Funny you mentioned that, I think something's wrong with the console or the computer we record to... A strange behavior started a month ago, it seemed that the gain level (volume) got too high when we turned on the console and the computer. We had to do a restart to the console or the computer (sometimes more than once) in order to get the levels back to normal. We changed computer, with a different sound card and now the effect is permanent. Maybe the console is fried, I don't know... :?

natural wrote: Sounds like the hi tom needs some tuning.

Hmmm... Is it because of the overtones? I like to hear a bit of overtones from my toms... To be honest, I haven't tuned them for sometime now, I'll check them out, thanks! 8-)

mellitacas wrote:
Thanks, I like to test my tuning and setup with this part cause it's a song I'm familiar with, I can play dynamically with it and it uses most of the kit's pieces...

Shameless plug: [[url=http://[/URL]="http://soundclick.c…"]Click for an example of me bitching on the Sandman[/]="http://soundclick.c…"]Click for an example of me bitching on the Sandman[/].

mellitacas wrote:
Funny you mentioned that, I think something's wrong with the console or the computer we record to... A strange behavior started a month ago, it seemed that the gain level (volume) got too high when we turned on the console and the computer. We had to do a restart to the console or the computer (sometimes more than once) in order to get the levels back to normal. We changed computer, with a different sound card and now the effect is permanent. Maybe the console is fried, I don't know... :?

You should find out... This seems weird. And you may get a spanking for gain structure. :P

mellitacas wrote:
Hmmm... Is it because of the overtones? I like to hear a bit of overtones from my toms... To be honest, I haven't tuned them for sometime now, I'll check them out, thanks! 8-)

Don't stress it, your kit sounds rather nasty but then it's nothing on what you have to record with... So who's worried?

mellitacas wrote: [ The only real problem I had with my previous setup was that cymbals were too loud, but that's something that involves as much mic quality and positioning as room acoustics.

When you use maintly OHs to record drums you will often get too much of the cymbals even with quality mics. The room might be afecting it, but it's most likely that your cymbals ar actually too loud!

At gigs drummers hit the cymbals hard to be heard. In the clarity of a recording they will often cut through too much.

Try a softer touch, a lighter right hand stick or smaller cymbals.

Giles
P.S 57s rule!

Hello again! First of all, thank you for all your replies! I appreciate it! We had a band session (at last!) two days ago and I have a stereo sample [="http://www.marirena.gr/songs/drums2.wav"]HERE[/]="http://www.marirena…"]HERE[/] or a mono sample [[url=http://="http://www.youtube…"]HERE[/]="http://www.youtube…"]HERE[/] that I would like you guys to listen and tell me what you think, with all the instruments in place and all.

Same setup as before, bass panned on the left at 10, guitar panned on the right at 2 and drum mics on the center. Mixer's main mix fader on 0, guitar and bass amplifiers' line out volume adjusted on mixer's 0 peak meter, mixer faders on 0, no eq. Mixer faders for drum mics on 0, no eq, gain... in the middle... well, I'm not sure how to read it... let me show you...

This is a picture of a portion of our mixer, pretty amateur low level, I know... We have never used it properly in the past, just the faders. How the heck do you read the gain control?!? How about the eq controls?

Any suggestions would still be very appreciative!

Cheers,

John

I like the bit which says "Invisible Mic Pre".