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J-MADD 18 April 2005

Does the fullness of a vocal track come most from mic, pre, or comp? Here's my problem. I do rock vocals AKG 414 B-uls to ISA 428 to Distressor brit mode engaged in the opto-compressor setting. The vocals are kinda thin and brittle sounding. My guess is the mic. I am trying to find another mic that would fatten up the vocals. Anyways, any thoughts much appreciated.

Justin

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Davedog Mon, 04/18/2005 - 14:27

I have a slightly different list...

1.Song
2.Arrangement
3.Singer
4.Room
5.Working Ambience
6.Mic
6a. mic-pre
7.Everything Else

Working Ambience is of course so overlooked.And underestimated.It can,under the right conditions, push an average track to above average results.As engineers, we sometimes fail to realize the absolute importance of the SONG while we fiddle with the knobs and the gear trying to create that special sound.The sound, no matter how special or good,will never be memorable without first,a great SONG.

As for your question about the mic.That mic can be brittle on vocals.Brittle is a subjective word so my brittle may not be your brittle might not be their brittle etc etc...I like a good tube mic for rock vocals ...Your chain is fine and I think if you believe that the mic is your weak link,you should investigate from that angle.If you have a budget, I could give you examples...If I knew more about how you like to work the mic,it would make it easier...If you live somewhere where theres a recording services dealer who rents mics, you would do well to go through their closet and see what you like.Its really the only way you'll know and since you have a quality chain to try things through, you should.

McCheese Mon, 04/18/2005 - 14:53

I've used pretty much the same setup on a project and I know what you mean. I had some thin vocals coming through, nothing horrid, just not 'in-your-face' like I wanted. It turned out to be the room, we were getting to much of it. The singer wanted to sing in the middle of a big room, so we had gone with it, but I convinced him to step into an isobooth, and bam, problem solved, I was even able to lighten up on the compressor significantly after that (had been trying to adjust it that way). I'm sure there were other methods of fixing this, but it was a school project, and time was an issue (I *HATED* being given 2 hour chunks of time once a week)

J-MADD Mon, 04/18/2005 - 15:12

Thanks for the suggestions all. My budget (by the way I won't be able to buy a new mic till next year, wife said no more for a while!) will be up to around $2500. I have been contemplating a U87, BLue Kiwi or some other higher end mic. My problem is there is nowhere here in Missouri (Lebanon MO) that will allow you to rent mics. I am gonna have to do lots-O-research on this as it will be quite a chunk of money.
I have yet to record anyone else's vocals, so it may just be that my voice isn't quite right for the signal path. I think there is alot to be said for ambience like Davedog said. It's difficult when recording your own vocals b/c it gets frustrating when you are trying to come up with a good vocal performance and be the person running the equipment.

John Stafford Mon, 04/18/2005 - 18:41

If I'm in a room that I can't do a lot with, I place the mic a foot or so from the centre of the room (nothing new in that of course). Then I stand at the wall facing the mic, and repeat something like bap-bap-bap and approach the mic VERY slowly. If you record this and listen back, you might hear a particular moment when the unpleasant colouration from the room disappears. I assume this has something to do with modes or reflections or whatever. I've been astonished by the difference this has made. It takes a lot of experimentation to find a position the mic likes, and where the room sounds good too. I always start with the diaphragm at mouth height, and ignore sibilance. If you're lucky, you'll find a sound like a good rcording with too much high end. Then I change mic height and angle and start the whole thing off again so that there's no sibilance. While this is far from an ideal recording strategy, somewhere in your recordings you should hear some surprisingly good sounds. Remember to make a note of mic position!

This has helped me out so much in situations where there was no other option available to me. I know some might think this is laughable, but sometimes there aren't any other options. I don't know if this is a common thing to do, but I always try and have an hour or so set aside to position the vocal mic.

Oh yeah, ambience should be a high priority as Davedog has pointed out.

John Stafford

PS I do this without using headphones, and judge the suitability of the position on playback.

anonymous Mon, 04/18/2005 - 20:48

I would need to know what converters you are using and what monitors. Both could be responsible for the thin sound.

Also, do you have any shelving EQ engaged on the 428?

If you feel good about all of the above, could be the mic. Generally when people mention thin sound, its the mic, EQ or Shelving followed by cheap converters.

JoeH Mon, 04/18/2005 - 22:09

gomp, you've nailed it alright. That list is about the best I've seen for what's most important in getting the right sound, the "best" sound.

When you have a singer that's "GOT IT", you'll know it the moment you hear it; everything (everyone) else is just a wanna-be, sorry to say. It happened to me this past weekend; three singers in a band, each going to their own tracks; two were just OK, the third just tore my head off, and all he was using was a Shure SM58, and his track just SMOKES compared to the other two. No effects, no compression yet, no nothing, just this guy's voice making the difference.

It's always the sound of the talent in FRONT of the mic first, the rest is just details. (And sadly, sometimes those details are simply polishing the proverbial turd....)

Davedog Mon, 04/18/2005 - 22:44

This is a very important thread so I encourage all to continue with it.There are several elusive points here that I'm sure that most have dealt with at some time and possibly on a continuing basis. Great Job Guys/Gals....

At that future dollar amount....theres no doubt in my mind you should go for the best you can find...perhaps a broker seeling off a closure sale....as was said,when you spend that kind of change on a single item, most supply houses will get you a demo and return policy.Of course you'll have to part with the coin first....

At that price I'm talking Brauner....Soundelux....maybe a Korby...The new issue of tapeop has an article by David Bock aka Soundelux on basic condenser mics construction ...

If you're not selling time then you dont 'need' the Neumann stamp.There's better stuff for less money.

Theres also a vocalist tips and tricks article in the new Tapeop...very good stuff...

I have a small studio at my house.I'm very aware of the recomended sizes of a room for optimum sound performance and such..I also have to have a place to house all the wifes shoes...So...I record at home. Its been a process...finding the nodes,killing particular reflections...The tracking area is separate from the control room which was originally a smallish bedroom.Its fairly dead now...at least in some spots...There was a large closet..almost a walkin...big enough for a vocal booth/dead booth/amp room...etc...Its where I have much control of the sound.I have a live wall,a dead wall,a reflective side and an absorptive side.It makes mics behave.The ones with the funny peaks in the highs and upper mids,smooth out well...The mics with the big PE bump now have a more gradual rise to proximity.A person can spend thousands and thousands of dollars on a problem when some times, a simple solution will do it all.If I want a bigger sound...more room, I mic up in the tracking room...if I want it tighter, the control room...if I want voiceover tight,its in to the booth.I have less than a grand in all the materials for these rooms.Now every over a grand mic that sits on a stand in here sounds like its supposed to and I have control.Its what we all want....control.

ghellquist Mon, 04/18/2005 - 23:41

One very simple thing to try is to hang some textiles in a corner. You could use a blanket or perhaps a duvet or whatever you have. The important thing is to get a good "background" of textiles behind the singer in head heigth.

Now, contrary to what I have seen more than once, point the mic into the corner. And stand between the mic and the textiles and sing. This can help and kill a lot of the room. The cardoid setting is probably the best for this, but test the others as well.

Gunnar

J-MADD Tue, 04/19/2005 - 11:58

Hi all,
I do put a little high pass filter on the preamp around 80Hz or so. I do this b/c of the proximity effect I get from standing up against the mic. As far as converters, I dont think I deal with that as I run the xlr outs on the 428 into the xlr ins on my Korg 32XD. I turn the built in preamps all the way down and use the gain from the 428 to give me the signal. I monitor with MsP5a's.
To be honest I don't know what the difference in sound is between tube mics and what I use now. I am very interested in learning more about different mics.
So Davedog, you think there are better choices for the money than the U87? I am open to any suggestions for rock vocals. Like I said I have some time and I want to do my homework.
Thanks to everyone for the responses.

Justin

J-MADD Tue, 04/19/2005 - 12:35

I also have an AKG C4000B, an sm58, a D112, a seinheisser e855 and a no name large diapragm mic that came with my ART prepak. (This was the first LD mic I ever bought years ago when I was first getting into recording, please don't hold it against me :oops: ) So, not alot else besides the two 414's for higher end studio mics.

anonymous Tue, 04/19/2005 - 12:46

Well if you have the time, try out the sm58 and even the D112 (which is a pretty meaty sounding mic) If it helps, these two mics are considered high-end studio mics.

Let us know the differences you hear when playing back your voice through these. I imagine that should help us recommend a new mic for you. That is, if you really need one, right!? :wink:

anonymous Tue, 04/19/2005 - 13:32

It's funny that the discussion is brought straight back to the equipment, and particularly the mic's.
I will say it again: if a voice sounds like crap through an sm58, it will be a little better sounding crap through a U87: the polished t@%d (quote JoeH).
I have a friend who is the singer in a band and no matter what mic he sings in and no matter what recording device it is plugged in, it will always sound good and makes you smile. If I was to record my own singing, no matter what line-up of Neumann's, Vintech's and LA's would be used: not a million dollar could persuade me to post it here (at least not under the name of gomp).
Reminds me of an other issue. A couple of years ago you would be able to buy of Ebay in Germany a used AKG C19 for between 50-100 dollars. Recently, prices have skyrocketed. And why: because "the Beatles used them"!!! But, my friends, if you think that the Beatles recordings sound great because they used this particular mic, you're crazy! Lennon and McCartney just have great vocal sounds which also match together perfectly. Most decent mics would have captured this. But if you wanna pay $500-$600 for a myth, be my quest. Don't know if Neumann is an equal placebo :lol: , because I never used one.
Another example. Yesterday I listened to some old songs of the Sonics (you know: strychnine, the witch). The vocals from a technical recording point of view are astonishing bad, kinda like a distorted megaphone. Still enjoyed the songs very much, because the singers voice just sounds great. It has balls and rocks!

Davedog, you've mentioned the working ambiance. If you mean that it is worth while to put some effort in the singer's performance I totally agree (even if that meant to make him swallow a bottle of whiskey). That could be a lot more important than the mic you put in front of his face.
Cheers, Gomp

Reggie Tue, 04/19/2005 - 14:07

Hey Justin,

I can't remember if this has been discussed before or not, but I'm not sure it is a good idea to run the outs of your ISA428 into the preamps on the board. It might be effecting the sound quality. There should be a way to bypass the pres other than turn the gain down (would the TRS jacks bypass the pres maybe?).

Or, you could get this: http://www.zzounds.com/item--KORDIB8
and this: http://www.zzounds.com/item--FOCISA428AD

which will make totally sure you are using your pres unadaulterated through some better A/D converters. I figure, if you're already down the outboard gear road, why not go all out? :D

Davedog Tue, 04/19/2005 - 14:08

That is exactly what I mean. Its a Producers job to set up an atmosphere for the 'talent' to work in...theres all kinds of things that work and if a stuffed Armadillo with a Pirates hat set on a table full of red and green Christmas lights is going to give you the optimum take and a hit song, then thats really cheap in comparison to renting/hiring/borrowing all the best equipment in the world for someone whos not going to be able to get through a take because of nerves or whatever.This is 'Art' after all and theres big egos at work when theres talent involved. And theres a fine line here also. Too comfortable and lets just party on the patio...not enough and its an uptight session where nothing is going to sound right...the cans sound like crap(uhhh a moment ago they were fine...!)....I cant hit that note....I'm just not feelin it....etc etc.

Story time: A few years back, I was recording,playing in and producing this original project.I was also living with the girl singer.We had a particularly dynamic and emotional type of song and we had picked this particular night to do vocals.Went to the studio...my partner and I ran it...Nothing went down...lots of trying...no take...I'm the producer...So I needle her until shes kinda steaming at me...She goes out in the room and simply NAILS this part down cold....We are all jumping around cause it was GREAT.....I slept on the couch for about a week after that....well, whadda ya gonna do..

J-MADD Tue, 04/19/2005 - 14:13

Yeah I'll try out the other mics I have to see how they sound through the signal chain. Any Yes I do know that if a person is not a good singer they won't sound like a good singer through a great setup. But, my question was about adding a biggness/fullness to the vocals not that there was anything wrong with the actual singing, just how to capture the full range of the voice.

Justin. P.S. if I figure out a way to get these songs as mp3's on the internet I will let you all hear what I'm talking about.

took-the-red-pill Wed, 04/20/2005 - 00:06

Hey J-Madd et al,

I asked a similar question a few weeks ago, and here are the replies the guys gave. It was more to do with the relationship between mics and pres, but it is related to this, so someone might have had some good info for you.

(Dead Link Removed)

By the way, here is my heirarchy of important things, and I give each one twice as much weight as the next, but hey, everybody's list is different:

1) A great song

2) Great performers

3) A great room

4) Decent sounding instruments

5) A decent engineer

6) Decent pre-amps(The first piece of recording gear on the list)

7) Decent mics,

8) Decent Canadian beer, or if 1-7 aren't working, cheap tequila.

9) The Daw, software, plug ins, the effects, the rack, the pretty colours on the monitor screen, and all that sexy stuff

10) the colour of the guitarist's socks,

I'm betting all George Martin ever had to work with was the first 5 or so.

those are my 2¢

K

JoeH Wed, 04/20/2005 - 09:13

ok, I think we've settled into two camps. (one feels it's what's in front of the mic & the room, etc. for the best sound, one feels it can be helped along, or perhaps even created by better gear.)

I think the original question was how to make a good track sound even BETTER, and I have no honest answer for that, becuase it's all subjective, and very often it's a case of what worked best for the 1000's of variables in that studio at that moment. There's lots of tips and tricks from EQ to reverb to doubling to comp/limiting that may do the trick, but unless you're working on a case by case basis, I think what may work wonderfully well for me on a Tuesday at my place could suck for you the next day on the other side of the country in YOUR place.

We could offer tips on our favorite stuff (I do have a few, more than just "good singers") or techqniques, etc.

Maybe if you explain a little more about what you're looking for, soncially, or cite an example of the sound you want to emulate from another CD.

Personally, I am always most impressed by clear, strong, well-performed MONO lead vocals, set dead-center, right in front of my face, with just a hint of reverb to establish a zone, or performance space for the singer, independent of the rest. IMHO, Nothing in the world beats the sound of someone like Allison Krause, etc, on a good pair of speakers. Close your eyes and she's literally sitting in front of you, with no gimmicks or tricks, just a great voice and no tricks. Oops, there I go, off again about the singer....... :twisted:

Fruition2k Mon, 05/02/2005 - 20:37

I've mentioned this a few times but you cant overlook an RE20 or SM7..of course being dynamic they can handle and hard sung vocal. Not to mention how they reject room noise..i.e the phase ports on the mic itself, condensers are too sensitive as they pick up bad room acoustics quite easily.
I've got both Neumann tube mics and dynamics, many times the dynamic wins out.
Just my opinion...invest in the best pre you can, I prefer the V72-76 lineage, build up your mic locker with proven old reliable dynamics and ribbons along with your 414 you'll cover most requirements...

Reggie Tue, 05/03/2005 - 07:17

It's a Shure mic. Prolly good mic to have, but I'm not sure it is what you are looking for. Your voice is more of the delicate variety, and I think a condensor would fit best once you find the right one. If you are wanting to chase gear :) , I think maybe you should look towards one of the tube Rode mics. Or another idea would be to see if you can find a dealer who has a 30-day trial period on gear and try out a Universal Audio LA-610 with your 414. Might give the fattyness you are looking for.
Later man

Reggie Tue, 05/03/2005 - 11:47

Uh, well, you know..... :oops:
I didn't mean delicate in a bad way; maybe that is bad wordage. My thesaurus is broke. But what I mean is you aren't a shouter or a screamer for the most part from what I've heard.

Voice lessons; cool. I could probably use some myself. Just don't let them turn you into a choirboy. :wink:

Have fun gear-shopping. I'm looking to buy some Seventh Circle Audio preamp kits any day now. I love sniffing solder as it cooks!:twisted:
8)

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