Well, I am probably going to get an 896, mostly because I think the 1296 sounds fine, and the built in mic pre's will help me immensely for location stuff.

If you really want something you'll never feel a need to apologize for, I'd say cough up a litle extra for the $2000 Lucid 8 channel AD/DA, and then spend a couple hundred on one of the ADAT I/O cards from RME. A little more (at musicians-gear.com) if you want the Hammerfall and it's 24 ADAT I/O.

Just below that, and probably on par with the MOTU, would be the same card and the single rackspace RME converter.

MOTU makes some cool stuff but the converters do lack some quality to them. Also the drivers for PC's are not that great nor is their support for PC based systems as well.
If I were you I would look at some of the posts on the Nuendo forum regarding dual athalon systems and MOTU equipment...not many success stories there and if there are there's quite a battle to get them to work properly.
If you want good converters than what Jon reccomended is correct...RME.
Another company that makes a good interface with good sounding converters is Echo
If you have the cash then buy an RME card and then get an Apogee Trak2 for your Mic pre/DI interface and get yourself the Adat Ambus card! The sound of the Trak2 is amazing! Just my $.02 worth
Opus

WOW,

A resonse already! I'm so... shocked. And on top of that, it's not just some beat-around-the-president/half ass'd answer either. This forum is my new favorite.

-Jon Best
When you say "Lucid 8 channel AD/DA", are you talking about the ADA 8824 (ADAT)? If so, I would have to respond by saying that it only has a sample rate of 48KHZ. What's up with that? I also want to say thank you for responding so fast and and with good suggestions.

-Opus2000
So you think that the RME converters are better than the Lucid ones? Also, what's that stuff about the Apogee trak2... that thing's crazy expensive, plus it doesn't have many ins/outs, so I'd have to expand it. But you think the Apogee stuff as really good conversion? Also, what's an Adat AMbus card? Thanks for your help

-teddancin

You might wanna have a look at: http://www.soundscape-digital.com/mbp/

Regards,
Fredrik Lidin

Hey..
I dont think the RME is better than the Lucid by any means..just putting some ideas out there so you can see and research everything..
Apogee converters are definately very nice indeed! When I brought home the Trak2 to test out and play around with my ears were amazed at the clarity that it produced! The ADAT Ambus card is an optional card bus system that will allow 8 channels of adat in and out..plus there are other cards available as well such as the AES card, TDIF card, the Digi card and the soon to be FireWire card.
Yes, Apogee is definately not cheap but also very worth it..you get unparelled support(try calling any tech support and having them answer on the first ring!!)
Opus

Hey, you're right- I haven't been looking specifically at 96K converters, so I guess that escaped me. Sure is a great converter, though. Opus is right- Apogee stuff sounds good, but keep in mind it's one of the few converter companies that people seem to buy based on it's color, instead of based on transparency specifically. Sort of the Neve of converters- really top notch quality and sound, but not what you want if you don't want any signature at all. If you feel you need 96K, then I'd probably suggest something like the RME *plus* a lucid stereo 96K AD, for critical tracks. I can't speak to the soundscape product link above, but I can say when I had a Soundscape Mixtreme and 8 channel converter, it was very clean. Never compared it to anything, but I can't imagine it being the weak link for anyone.

I'll reiterate- if you go with an outboard converter and a digital sound card, I can't think of a single reason *not* to go with one of the RME cards, whichever flavor you need. Matter of fact, if you do a lot of single tracks at one time, an RME Hammerfall DSP card/Multiface interface/Lucid stereo converter setup would probably run you $1400, and give you eight solid converters, two great ones, and a near-bulletproof soundcard.

You may also want to look at Mytekdigital.com - it's more expensive, but the stuff is amazing, and sometimes he has some B stock sales going on.

Originally posted by teddancin:
WOW,

-Jon Best
When you say "Lucid 8 channel AD/DA", are you talking about the ADA 8824 (ADAT)? If so, I would have to respond by saying that it only has a sample rate of 48KHZ. What's up with that? I also want to say thank you for responding so fast and and with good suggestions.

-Opus2000
So you think that the RME converters are better than the Lucid ones? Also, what's that stuff about the Apogee trak2... that thing's crazy expensive, plus it doesn't have many ins/outs, so I'd have to expand it. But you think the Apogee stuff as really good conversion? Also, what's an Adat AMbus card? Thanks for your help

-teddancin

Hello... :p
http://www.soundscape-digital.com/mbp/

Regards,
Fredrik Lidin

Yes indeedy folks...Apogee has made the converters for the new Soundscape stuff..oh boy oh boy!!! lol!
Jon...Apogee based on color? :eek: what in the wide wide world of sports are you talking about!! Ha ha ha ha!!
Opus

Well, when you stick them in a room with the Mytek and Millennia (which are the only two I've heard them next to), everyone starts talking about how punchy they are, and how great they are for rock and roll. I don't think you could ever really go wrong on *any* kind of music with any converter in the line, but they do have some (minor, pleasing) character to them.

Originally posted by Opus2000:
Yes indeedy folks...Apogee has made the converters for the new Soundscape stuff..oh boy oh boy!!! lol!
Jon...Apogee based on color? :eek: what in the wide wide world of sports are you talking about!! Ha ha ha ha!!
Opus

I'm in shock at how helpful you guys are here. This is great.

-Fredrik
That soundscape stuff looks pretty sweet. Do you have any Idea what the price on something like that is? How does it compare to other DAW stuff that's out right now?
One thing that scares me a little bit is that the stuf is made (along with apogee) by mackie, and not that mackie's bad or that this has anything to do with DAW's, but when I went to test out Monitor Speakers, everyone was raving about the mackie HR-824 speakers, and (to my ears) they really colored the sound... I thought they scooped the mids a lot. So I went KRK-V8's

-Opus2000
What do you personally think about the LUCID converters? Can you recommend a specific RME setup that would be really high quality with at least 2 XLR inputs 24bit/96khz and around or under $2,500?
Also, I was reading your thread about your computer setup, sounds pretty nice, any stability problems with the overclocking? Did you know that the P4's based of the 478 pin design (little one's) that are of 2.0-2.2 Ghz also have a .13 micron architecture (the 478pinned p4's below that Ghz have .18 micron architecture) and they operate with 512KB of cache? I think those are pretty awesome, but I'm sure they're expensive as hell.

-Jon Best
Hmm, if those lucid converters are as good as you say they are, I might just have to pick one up. I was looking at the AD9624 (http://www.lucidaudio.com/products/product_ad_9624_info.htm) cause it's the only one that I could find that would convert at 24bit/96khz. The ONLY thing that I'm not the most fond of is that it only has 2 analog inputs, and their both xlr. If I had to take only two analog in's, I'd want them to be xlr, but it just kinda sucks for the few things I have that require 1/4 inch inputs. Plus the fact that there are only 2 analog inputs.... there's no way that I'm going to be mic'ing a drum kit anytime soon with that (but for RIGHT now, I don't really need to mic a drum kit, but it would be nice to have the capability in the future). Could I just expand by adding another one of those same Lucid AD9624's in the future?

Also, from what I gathered, it didn't have a computer interface with it, so I'm assuming that you were suggesting earlier that I should get an RME hammerfall card and just use that as the interface. I'm assuming I would run the digital Lightpipe OUT (from the lucid box) to the digital Lightpipe IN of the RME card. My only question with that is how does the analog sound come back OUT of the card so that I can hear it? That may be a stupid question, but I just wasn't sure how the setup was supposed to work.
I also checked out that MYTEK stuff.... the 8X96 series 8 channel 24 bit/96 kHz ADC looked sooo cool, are the converters on that really worth the $2795.00 price that he's asking for it?

sorry for all the questions, it's just not everyday that I find a forum where people actually know what they're talking about like in this one.

-teddancin

Most of what we are talking about are converters, which by definition aren't necessarily computer specific. So, no, most of them are not a sound card as well, although plenty of sound cards include analog inputs and converters. Apogee, Mytek, Lucid, RME standalones, don't have computer interfaces. Hence the RME sound card recommendation- they're some of the most solid cards out there. If you get an eight channel converter, odds are pretty good that it'll have ADAT lightpipe. In that case, yes- you'd pick up a card with a lightpipe input, hook them together, and promptly forget they're different pieces of gear- it'll all be one front end in use. Some of these converters have AD and DA in the same box (Lucid 8 channel, RME 8 channel, Apogee PSX) and some are just AD's (Lucid 2 channels, Apogee Rosetta). In that case, you'd need something to convert back (DA) to listen to. If you only are ever going to need 8 or 10 channels of input, you could get the RME DIGI96/8 PST, which would give you solid stereo in and out analog, ADAT lightpipe IO, and S/PDIF stereo digital IO. That means you could get something like the stereo Lucid AD, and use it and the two onboard converters for 4 inputs (2 good, 2 really good), and listen back through the onboard DA. Then, later on, you could pick up an 8 channel converter if you needed it. Or you could pick up the RME 8 channel now, and have 10 really solid ins and outs from RME, and an exceptional pair of Lucid inputs for critical tracks and overdubs. And you're still under $2K, I think.

OK, I think I just figured out what I would suggest... :)

Hey teddancin - One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet - You keep talking about 24/96, so I ass(u)(me) you mean it - Here is another "fly" in your/my ointment - ADAT does NOT do 96K without help, most good software (Samplitude, Nuendo, Cubase, Logic?) now saves at 32 bit (not 24) I am only familiar with the way Samplitude does this - you specify in global setup menus to use 32-bit floating point mode, then Samplitude uses that format for all internal processing AND disk storage. When you're done "fucking up" the song, you burn a CD, and THEN Samplitude downsamples to the appropriate "CD Quality" to burn it. The MAJOR advantage to this is minimum conversion/truncation distortion/loss thruout the project. The disadvantage is storage requirements, both capacity and speed. (All files are now 32 bit 96 kHz on disk, or 4.35 times as big as 16/44.1 - SOOOO, If you really want 24/96 operation of a DAW (or digital console under $20K) you get HALF the # of channels/tracks electronically, and less than 1/4 the tracks as a function of disk speed/size.

You CAN use ADAT in a 24/96 setup, but here's how it works - RME (maybe others) does a trick they call S-MUX - where they "bit split" a track of 24/96 to two tracks of 24/48, then put it back together at the other end. The good news is you get 24/96 capability with lightpipe, the bad news is you get 4 channels for the price of 8, and you have to find all the right pieces that "talk" the same language.

I have been checking this out for the last few months, as I am the recent owner of a Tascam DM-24 mixer. I would have bought the thing even if all it could do was the "Hardware Control Surface" thing, as it was $2400, vs. $8500 for the Protools version. However, like Opus, I am at least part Jewish (the "I want more for less" part). So far, the contusion (sic) I have come to for my needs is this: TDIF out (2) of the DM-24 into an RME ADI-8DD (converter box), ADAT out (2) into an RME "Digiface", and into the computer via the Digiface's PCI interface. This will give me 8 channels for the price of 16, and the option to use all 16 if I want to give up the 96k.

There is an excellent thread on the pro/con of this, with very good explanations by Greg Malcangi. Check it out -

(Dead Link Removed)

On the .13 micron, 512 cache thing - This is the "Northwood" chips referred to on all the recent threads on DAW's. Definitely kickin' some ass...

Don't worry too much just yet about the Mackie/Soundscape/Apogee thing - Mackie just recently "acquired", or whatever - Anything from Soundscape is most likely only changed as far as the "label", at least for now. Don't take my word for it, our bud Opus here works for Apogee and probably has more of the "skinny" than we do, how 'bout it Opus?

On sound cards, Jon has good reason to recommend RME (bang for the buck) - However, if you're serious about 24/96, remember to double your budget for sound hardware, and quadruple it for disk storage.

You're right, RO rocks for info - And, if you ever forget it, we'll all get together and kick yer ass :=)) You keep postin', we'll keep postulatin'... Steve

-Jon Best
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain everything to me. I kinda guessed that things worked the way that you said they did, but the ultra broken down clarification really helps.
I'm on the verge of buying 1 lucid AD9624 and 1 RME-DIGI96/8 PST (assuming that the analog outs on the RME are 2 1/4 inch, cause their website is really vague about the in's/out's of the digi96 cards).
Will I need external mic pre's right away for the Lucid AD, cause it doesn't have phantom power that I could see, does it(although I'm sure I'll need good pre's soon anyway even if the lucid does have them)?
One last thing (I promise : ), I'm still new to the whole digital music transferring business. The Lightpipe out of the Lucid that goes Into the RME card would still be able to seperate the two inputs right? riSo I would still have two tracks once it got to my computer ght? It wouldn't just blend them together if I had two mics going into the one lucid converter would it? Just making sure. Also, if there's ANY software that you're looking for, just let me know and you might find it. Once again, thanks a ton.
-teddancin

I don't know the price for the Soundscape-converter, but it should be around $2000-2500. Since it is not shipping yet nobody knows. This is just a wild guess...
However Knightfly's remark about the "label-changing" is true regarding the Soundscape 32. But I believe the interface is a new product. If someone has the absolute facts of this, please correct me.
If it indeed is the "old" Soundscape interface with some new features (Apogee-converter/MADI/8 AES etc) and a new label, I couldn't recommend it more highly. Very clear, clean and transparent.

I hear very good things about the Lucid interface as well. It's a good thing to check all your options.

Regards,
Fredrik Lidin

Fredrik,
The I/O 896, co-developed by Mackie and Apogee, condenses all of the previous Soundscape I/O boxes into one high-quality I/O box that does everything. It will have an SLP of $3995 USD.

Thanks!

Ted-

ADAT Lightpipe (which is a data format, as opposed to the optical cable it travels on, which is just a cable technology) is 8 channels. S/PDIF (and AES/EBU) are stereo data formats (most common way of transferring S/PDIF is on 75 ohm coax cable with RCA ends, but you can also have optical S/PDIF- see the seperation between data format & cable type?). So, if you get the stereo Lucid, it's not going to have ADAT lightpipe- I know it's got AES/EBU (which you're going to find on 110 ohm XLR cables), and it probably has S/PDIF as well. If you go the stereo Lucid route, then, you're going to need a sound card with one of those types of inputs, and if you go the 8 channel/ADAT Lightpipe - equipped Lucid/RME converter route, you're going to need a sound card with optical ADAT Lightpipe inputs. The card I mentioned before has both, so you can start with whatever you want to start with.

None of these have mic pre's, so you'll need to plug something into any of them. There are a handful of converter/soundcards with mic pre's, but I don't have as clear a handle on which ones may be the best sound- that approach also does not let you do selective upgrading later on.

FWIW, I am probably going to get an RME Hammerfall PCI card with the Multiface interface for the fixed in place studio computer, and a Metric Halo Mobile IO to switch between the studio and live computers. I'll keep reporting back on how that falls together!

Bert,
I think you should go with my price instead... LOL :D :D :D

All jokes aside... I'm sure it's worth it! :p

Fredrik Lidin

I don't get this god-damned shit!
I've been studying this crap for hours trying to soak it in... going to audio glossaries and trying to figure out this whole S/PDIF (I now know what the hell it stands for) vs. Adat lightpipe BS. Learning computers was never this difficult.

I think it might just be that RME's website http://www.rme-audio.com is really hard to understand. I'm practically positive now that I want the Lucid AD9624, but I need to connect it to my computer. EVERYONE says that RME cards are the way to go, so I'll probably do that, but it's impossible (for me) to figure out what card has what features.

I'll make my dilemma very clear to you with an example, just to make sure there's no confusion (already got enough of that over here).

example: The Lucid AD9624 http://www.lucidaudio.com/products/product_ad_9624_info.htm says that it has S/PDIF optical outs on it.
So, I was looking to plug that S/PDIF optical out into (what appears to me, to be) the S/PDIF optical ins on the DIGI9636 Hammerfall Light Link removed .

That doesn't seem like it would be a hard task because to me, it looks like this RME card has 4 possible optical S/PDIF ins (I'm not even going to begin to talk about that fifth Breakout Cable connector that's on the card, I just want to talk about the 4 S/PDIF optical looking things on the card).

Then I look right below the picture of the card, and it says it has
(2)adat digital i/o...
(1)SPDIF digital i/o...
(1)adat sync in (9 pin d-type)
ok, right there, that's 4 connections, so that's all of the things that I thought were SPDIF. But in the spec's, it says that only one of them is SPDIF digital i/o.
So, does that mean that I could only attach one Lucid converter to this card through the optical SPDIF, making expandability (me getting more Lucid converters) not possible?

Jon Best said that ADAT lightpipe is just a format. A format that transmits 8 channels of audio. From what I gathered, he said that SPDIF is just a format also, but it only transmits 2 channels (stereo).
If that were true, and they both still used the same wire to connect optically, then would'nt the RME card be able to use ALL FOUR of the optical i/o on it's card to transmit DIGITAL SPDIF as opposed to (according to the specs below the picture) only having 1 SPDIF digital i/0?

Am I going crazy? Am I really just that stupid that I can't grasp this concept? If so, feel free to break it down to me like you would to an infant, cause I don't care at this point, I just wanna know what the hell they're talkin about.

Thanks for listening to my mad rant.
-teddancin (a sad man)

I figured I would not be clear enough- I talk a lot, but sometimes I don't say much... :)

You are pretty much right on in your understanding, with one exception- your (say, optical) inputs and outputs have to be designed to support whatever data format they're going to accept. In other words, yes, optical jacks can be used for either S/PDIF or ADAT lightpipe. If a particular manufacturer doesn't decide to make them support S/PDIF _as well as_ ADAT lightpipe, however, then you're dead in the water. It is possible for a manufacturer to configure an optical jack to support either format.

So, the Lucid stereo converter has optical S/PDIF, coaxial S/PDIF, and AES/EBU on XLR jacks. And, RME has configured their cards to accept either S/PDIF or ADAT lightpipe on the optical inputs. Unfortunately, I just re-read the RME web page, and I don't think you can use all the input types at once on the Digi96 series cards- it looks like you're limited to *one* of the 2 channel formats, *or* 8 channel ADAT lightpipe. Glad you haven't bought yet- I'd hate to be to blame for an incompatible system, or for you to have one- I usually check this crap out better... I was actually thinking of the DIGI9636 Hammerfall Light. 2 ADAT IO, plus S/PDIF on *either* the coax connection *or* one of the ADAT connectors. And you can use ADAT and S/PDIF at the same time (on different connectors). So, you're still back to one S/PDIF at a time, of either flavor, but you can stick an 8 channel guy on there at the same time.

REVISED RECOMMENDATION!

A) Hammerfall light, Lucid ADA8824.

B) Hammerfall light, Lucid AD9624, RME 8 ch. AD/DA

There. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like you can set yourself up for multiple stereo-to-S/PDIF converters without multiple cards, with RME. (They are good at that, though). You could also later on get a reasonably priced Friend-Chip patchbay to turn multiple S/PDIF signals into one lightpipe stream, and get at it that way. Otherwise, I'm not aware of a multi-S/PDIF soundcard, although someone else will probably pipe up with one...

Hope that makes the mud just a little clearer!

Originally posted by teddancin:

Jon Best said that ADAT lightpipe is just a format. A format that transmits 8 channels of audio. From what I gathered, he said that SPDIF is just a format also, but it only transmits 2 channels (stereo).
If that were true, and they both still used the same wire to connect optically, then would'nt the RME card be able to use ALL FOUR of the optical i/o on it's card to transmit DIGITAL SPDIF as opposed to (according to the specs below the picture) only having 1 SPDIF digital i/0?

Oh, BTW, half of those jacks are inputs, and half are outputs, so 4 optical jacks means 2 in, 2 out.

Don't be a sad man... :)

Hey T.D. Welcome to the lunatic club - you say you've been studying for "hours"? Try MONTHS, YEARS, etc. - I agree that the RME site could use some "english-as-a-first-language" help. I too have had to read and re-read their "info's" and still am not clear on a few things. You may get better understanding talking to the US rep for RME - the company is X-Vision Audio.
1-330-747-3857. (East coast USA.)
Their site is xvisionaudio.com -
email is XVISIONUS@CBOSS.COM
It is a small outfit, so you may have to try more than once to get hold of anyone. The main man is Tom Sailor, and I think the tech support guy's name is Brian. If you still have questions after talking to them, the RME "supertech" guy is Matthias Carstens. Email is
matthiascarstens@t-online.de

I have yet to contact Matthias, so I can't offer any assessment as to what kind of help you'll get, only Tom's word that he's "Da Man"...

Try not to get either dejected or antsy - Dejected slows you down, Antsy makes you wish you'd slowed down. This is a complex subject due to the myriad choices in PC hardware, Operating systems, software, etc - Most of the people who answer you have been studying this stuff for years, been through all the crap you mention (times 1000), sorted most of it out, forgotten 3/4 of the details and settled on just the meat. This is why explanations sometimes don't make sense, so you need to keep at us until all the (forgotten but necessary) details come out. Speaking for myself, I have been studying digital audio, acoustics, MIDI, computers, and any other related fields I find, for the last 20 years, and have been in the technical fields for about 38 years. All this, and others on this forum still blow me away on a regular basis. (Not you, Opus, you're still a putz... :=)

One thing you should remember in your frustration is this: computers are stupid. Programmers and hardware designers (hopefully) are not. A computing device, hard or software, can only do what it's been programmed or designed to do, so every single bit of digital information has to be exactly right, unlike analog, which by its very name means an "analog-y"... This is most of the reason setting up a digital audio system is a major pain in the ass. It only gets worse when you want more than 2 channels of "CD Quality" audio out of one sound card in one computer with no external equipment other than speakers.

What makes it worth it? How about getting the same functionality (I didn't say identical, no flames please) of a half-million dollars worth of studio equipment for a few thousand? Personally, since I am no relation to Bill Gates or the Rockefellers, this is a large motivation to keep studying til I get it right/usable. I consider it, like other areas of life, a trade-off. If you disagree, you should do the following: 1. Get rich 2. Hire someone who's learned all the crap 3. Tell them (a)where you want your studio (b)what you want to do with it (c) when you want it done, and (d) hire them full-time to run it for you so you can make music...

Don't take that as a slam, it's just to make a point about options. In my case, the last is NOT an option, (much as I would like it to be) so I'm slowly but surely learning enough to "roll my own" - If Gates isn't YOUR uncle either, stick around - eventually you'll get enough help and chase down enough stuff to get where you want to go.

One last cliche - If you don't think you'll enjoy the "journey", you probably won't enjoy the destination either - go somewhere else... Steve

-Jon Best
Thanks for that rad clarification. I think that I'm actually starting to get this stuff.

Ok, so let me beat this dead horse one last time. The RME DIGI9636 Hammerfall Light Link removed has
(4) optical ports.
1 of them supports adat lightpipe in
1 of them supports adat lightpipe out
1 of them supports SPDIF in or out in the same
jack
1 of them supports adat sync in (whatever that is)

About the Friend-chip patch bay. Would I lose any sound quality when my sound format (coming out of my lucid converter and then into the Friend-chip patch bay) is changed from SPDIF to ADAT via the Friend-chip patch bay?

And which Friend-chip patch bay would you suggest that I buy?

Also, being that ADAT format supports 8 channels, would I be able to hook 4 Lucid converters (4 because it uses SPDIF and that's 2 channels a piece) into the Friend-Chip patch bay and then only have ONE Adat Lightpipe optical cable coming out from the patch bay that contains all of the 8 channels from the lucid converters?

For your recommendation of “B) Hammerfall light, Lucid AD9624, RME 8 ch. AD/DA”, when you say RME 8ch. AD/DA, are you talking about the Analog Expansion Board that you buy with the hammerfall light as an optional thing with 4 analog in’s or 4 analog out’s? Cause if I can do the Lightpipe Friend-chip thing to upgrade later on, I’m totally going to get 1 lucid AD9624 and 1 hammerfall light card with 1 analog expansion board for 4 ¼ inch outputs. Thanks for your help.

-knightfly
Thank you for the phone numbers to call. Before I actually buy the RME card I'm definitely going to give them a call just to confirm some stuff. Thanks for the words of wisdom too. I got too frustrated with this last problem too quickly, it's probably cause I'm sick right now and I'm used to actually knowing some one personally that knows this stuff, so when I don't get the answers right it’s easy for me to become frustrated.

No prob, T-D - All of us here are sick or we wouldn't be doing this shit (hehehe)- I hope the physical sickness leaves you and lodges in Rosie O-Doggell's innards (nothing personal, I just hate the fat bitch's guts) I've been doing this kind of stuff for a long time, and after the first 10 years of frustration decided a heart attack wasn't worth it, so I somehow manage to take a (mental) vallium and just wade thru it no matter how crazy it gets. I ain't sayin' I'm old, but ya know those pix of Christ on the cross? Remember the guy with the food on the spear that was feedin' him? That was me... :=) Anyhoozitz, get better and try to remember that any day you learn something is not a total waste... Steve

Originally posted by teddancin:
[QB]
Ok, so let me beat this dead horse one last time. The RME DIGI9636 Hammerfall Light Link removed has
(4) optical ports.
1 of them supports adat lightpipe in
1 of them supports adat lightpipe out
1 of them supports SPDIF in or out in the same
jack
1 of them supports adat sync in (whatever that is)

-----------------
Close- Of the 4 optical ports, 2 of them are inputs, 2 of them are outputs. All four can be configured as ADAT Lightpipe (I.E., 2 in, 2 out). One pair also has the option of being S/PDIF input and output, with the other pair remaining ADAT lightpipe. The ADAT sync port is actually that 9 pin D connector on the back of the card- this lets the Hammerfall and your software be syncronized (i.e., run at the same time and fast forward, rewind, etc.) with anything else with ADAT sync capabilities. You probably won't worry about that jack.
----------------------

About the Friend-chip patch bay. Would I lose any sound quality when my sound format (coming out of my lucid converter and then into the Friend-chip patch bay) is changed from SPDIF to ADAT via the Friend-chip patch bay?

And which Friend-chip patch bay would you suggest that I buy?

-------------------
http://www.ucik.com/ is the American distributor for Friend-Chip patchbays- I actually think it's not a big deal for you right now, with the setup you're thinking about. Worth looking at, though.
-------------------

Also, being that ADAT format supports 8 channels, would I be able to hook 4 Lucid converters (4 because it uses SPDIF and that's 2 channels a piece) into the Friend-Chip patch bay and then only have ONE Adat Lightpipe optical cable coming out from the patch bay that contains all of the 8 channels from the lucid converters?

-------------------
Yes.
-------------------

For your recommendation of “B) Hammerfall light, Lucid AD9624, RME 8 ch. AD/DA”, when you say RME 8ch. AD/DA, are you talking about the Analog Expansion Board that you buy with the hammerfall light as an optional thing with 4 analog in’s or 4 analog out’s? Cause if I can do the Lightpipe Friend-chip thing to upgrade later on, I’m totally going to get 1 lucid AD9624 and 1 hammerfall light card with 1 analog expansion board for 4 ¼ inch outputs. Thanks for your help.

-------------------
I had forgotten about the expansion board- they also make a rackmount 8 channel converter. The expansion boards would be a good idea as well- they come in 4 and 8 channel versions, so you jut pick whether you need more inputs, more outputs, or both. I think that'll be a good system.

If you're adventurous and cheap, http://www.musicians-gear.com has some really good prices for buying RME straight from Germany. The catch is, the warranty is through the German distributor.
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QB]

-Jon Best
"About the Friend-chip patch bay. Would I lose any sound quality when my sound format (coming out of my lucid converter and then into the Friend-chip patch bay) is changed from SPDIF to ADAT via the Friend-chip patch bay?

And which Friend-chip patch bay would you suggest that I buy?"

As great as the rest of your info on your last response was (you have no idea how much help you've been), I really wanted to know, like I said above, if there's a quality reduction when running the Lucid converters through the friend-chip patch bay (you know, 4 SPDIF channels into one ADAT Lightpipe)?

Also, if I were to get one of these Friend-chip patch guys, would it be the Q. CON 4-ADAT? It's the little one, second from the bottom on the last page of this acrobat reader window. http://www.ucik.com/Friend-Chip/Brochure/fcp2.pdf

Also, I heard (somewhere) that you owned your own studio. So I was asking in the PROTALK forums here about which Mic's are better out of these 3 in the $2,000 range.
1.Lawson L47MP http://www.lawsonmicrophones.com/l47mp.html
2.Soundelux U99 http://www.soundelux.com/mics/index.html
3.Brauner VALVET Tube Microphone Link removed
So if you have a preference between these 3 mics, or any other mics, please let me know.
It'll be my 1 main "really good" mic in my setup.
Thanks again man.

-teddancin

The Q-con looks like it would work fine. The way it reads to me, those 4 different conversion directions are all just four different modes of the same gear, and you'd be looking at mode three. With a well designed digital patchbay, there should not be any quality reduction.

AFA those three mics, that's actually something I have been thinking about myself. I did a shootout here that included the U99 and the Valvet, and I just got a Lawson. Between the three, I'd say that the Lawson is the most variable, with a pretty hefty difference in the sound depending on the pattern selected- this can be pretty handy, because if you're not specifically worried about bleed or room noise, you can use the pattern select as a sort of EQ. I'd say it's got a really nice midrange and bottom, and although it's not muddy, I would put it on the darker end of things. You can get the high mids forward to push a vocal through.

The Valvet does the 'airy top end' thing better than any mic near the price that I've ever heard- detailed and toppy, but very, very smooth.

The U99 would probably get my vote as the best of the three for 'only mic' slot- good, present highs, but not over the top, and very balanced in general.

I have the L47MP, and I am going to buy a Valvet in the next few weeks, as I think they compliment each other very nicely. If I was only getting one of those three, I'd get the U99 and cover more of the middle ground with one mic.

Or a TLM103 and a pair of Beyerdynamic M160 ribbons...

Wow, I think you've successfully answered EVERY question I've thrown at you. You're da shit. Please excuse that last pop culture reference.

I just wanted to say Thank you again. I now know what I need for a pro quality A/D interface for my computer. Plus I know how I can expand it later on too.

I also think that I AM going to buy the Soundelux U99 for my Main mic. So, you think the beyer M160's are pretty good too, huh? At nearly 300 bucks a piece, that's a pretty cheap mic (cheap for a good mic). What are the 160's good for mic'ing in particular?

I'm probably asking you way too many questions, but you're all I've got to go on. Sorry... hehe. Any thoughts on inexpensive mic pre's AND/OR a solid mixer that has good mic pre's that's under $2,000?

-teddancin

Well, keep in mind that this is all my own misguided ramblings... :)

The couple of times I have gotten to use M160's, they have impressed me (like a lot of ribbons) with just how real and smooth the top end is. They are a little rolled off on top, although not as dark as some other ribbon mics, and may not be the best for some vocals. The entire range is just super smooth, though- wonderful mics. Drum overheads and electric guitars would be first call, for me, but basically anything that doesn't need top end help should sound good. Banjo, mandolin, screechy violins, all get smoothed out and musical on top with a good ribbon.

Mixers, the first question I'd have, is do you need to mix analog? For that price, I'd look at some decent mic pre's and a good software controller- matter of fact, I just noticed the MTA iX One 16 channel mic pre at pmiaudio.com is on clearance for a grand- that may be overkill, but they're going to be better than any $2000 console. CLM dynamics has an under-$1000 4 channel, you can get 4 channel Sytek pre's for under a grand, and the $700ish tube Peavey is surprisingly good. A couple of those and whatever flavor of software control surface you prefer/can afford, and you should be doing really well. As far as hardware mixers, the '70's Yamaha PM1000 can be had for $400 or so, and it's got some wonderful, big fat transformer front end mic pre's. It's a boat, though. New, the mic pre's on the little Mackies are pretty good. As a mixer, I prefer the Allen & Heath 16x2 mixwizard, even though the mic pre's are a little dark/soft.

If you want to buy new, I guess I'd say Mixwizard (if you need analog) or 8 fader control surface, plus some combination of mic pre's, or just one really good stereo one in combination with the A&H.

this has been a great thread of info - along these lines, i'm trying to find the best quality for a mobile setup.

i'm planning on either the rme multiface or digiface.
i am leaning towards the digiface, i think, because it gives me the ability to select the converters. as per the above post, i have been toying with 2-channels of high end ad(lucid ad9624 or apogee rosetta 96) to use with something to the tune of the rme 8 i/o box (for more input and the da).
people seem to prefer the apogee's because of the superior clock. *what if* you were to buy lucid's genx6-96 clock to use as master for the ad9624 & the rme 8 i/o. any thoughts on if this will work and will it be worth the $$ ?
as well, i guess, if you're going to buy the lucid clock, do you go for the multiface breakout instead of the 8 i/o - and would the clock bring the quality of the multiface converters up to par with that on the 8 i/o?

and if the lucid clock isn't great, then do i scrap the lucid's and grab the rosetta (and have that be the master clock)?? oh, all these decisions!

any help is appreciated
mitch

Having never done the comparison, I will say that people seem to be pretty happy with the Lucid clocks, and a few people I trust put the Lucid clock *and* converter above Apogee. Either way, they are both good, and buying one to clock the other is probably not going to make much difference. There may be a way to clock an 8 channel RME converter from a stereo Lucid converter, though, and you may notice a difference. Neither will be the weak link in the chain, probably.

Jeez Mitch,

Sounds like you got yourself quite a situation there. I had no Idea the Clock mattered so much. I figured that I'd just run all my lucid crap into the RME 9636 card and everything would be hunkie dorie. I'd also like some more insight on this "clock" business. What's that whole "clock" thing all about? hehe, sorry, I'm still dilerious from my sickness... will it ever end?! Ok, well, if you figure anything out, post it here and I'll do likewise, so we can have some info-symbiosis, if ya know what I'm talkin about.

-Jon Best

Mixers, the first question I'd have, is do you need to mix analog? For that price, I'd look at some decent mic pre's and a good software controller- matter of fact, I just noticed the MTA iX One 16 channel mic pre at pmiaudio.com is on clearance for a grand- that may be overkill, but they're going to be better than any $2000 console. CLM dynamics has an under-$1000 4 channel, you can get 4 channel Sytek pre's for under a grand, and the $700ish tube Peavey is surprisingly good. A couple of those and whatever flavor of software control surface you prefer/can afford, and you should be doing really well. As far as hardware mixers, the '70's Yamaha PM1000 can be had for $400 or so, and it's got some wonderful, big fat transformer front end mic pre's. It's a boat, though. New, the mic pre's on the little Mackies are pretty good. As a mixer, I prefer the Allen & Heath 16x2 mixwizard, even though the mic pre's are a little dark/soft

I was thinking about what you said, and (once again) you're totally right! I really don't need a mixer to do my preamp stuff. I'd be much better off just getting a mic preamp unit all by itself and just mix in my computer. I'll just buy an analog mixer later just cause I'll eventually need one, and this behringer mx2004 just aint cuttin it =(.

As for the Mic Preamps, I took a look at the MTA iX One 16 channel mic pre at pmiaudio.com, but this beast was going for like $2,000! It has 16 channels (I don't even need that, but if I could get it for $1,000, I wouldn't be complaining), but I noticed it didn't have any EQ, just gain control and (what the hell are these things?) pad and phase reverse. Does this unit sound good? Do I even need EQ on a mic preamp?

As for the CLM dynamics 4 channel mic pre Are you referring to the DB4000? I couldn't find an online music store that even sold ANY CLM stuff. The Sytek's MPX4A looked pretty good too. All I really need in a mic pre is
1.At least 2 channels (the more the merrier, but whatever)
2.Great sound quality (as good as can be)
3.Around $1,000

I was also looking into those Allen & Heath's too. Those look so cool, thanks for suggesting them. Plus I really don't like Mackie as a brand in itself, so if I don't have to use them, I'm not going to. What do you think about the Mixwizard 14:4:2 as compared to the 16:2?

Thanks so much again.
PS. How come you never post in the PROAUDIO part of this forum? You seem to have really good advice on a lot of this stuff, so I was just curious.

jon, looks to me like the lucid ad9624 only has wc input, not output- so would have to buy their separate clock, too .. rosetta, rme digiface and rme adi 8 ds all have wc outs, so i guess..

hi teddancin - i'm not all knowing on "the clock", but let me pass one what i do know. you can live without one. if you are using several digital devices in your front end chain, they all depend on a clocking source to keep them in perfect sync. i've never heard a real disaster, but lack of sync produces the pops n clicks you hear in a recording (and things you can probably live with, but generally don't want). they say (and wish i had a little more first hand experience) that a good clock yields much better audio - clearer, tighter, better sound field, etc. i initially contemplated buying a clock from aardvark, but when i saw they were on the mkt for $1500, i decided i could live without. i've just seen these lucid clocks advertised for $530 - a price where i would again entertain their benefits.

so do you just buy the apogee (which already has a good internal clock) or buy a lucid clock to use with the lucid ad9624 and/or rme adi 8? i wish i could answer these questions.. or had a plan on how i could get the answer. that's what is so great about these forums.. there's bound to be someone out there who has first hand experience or has a strong opinion based on some experience ...

i just figure if i'm going to use the rme digiface, a 2-channel apogee or lucid ad9624 and some flavor of 8 channel i/o, i had better think about a clock.
someone please correct me if i'm wrong. thanks ....

Ted- If you go to the joemeek.com website, and look under scratch & dent, you'll see the clearance iX one's for $999.

Pad knocks an input that's coming into the mic preamp too hot down a set number of dB, so you have better control over it (i.e., the kick drum is just barely clipping the mic pre, but the gain is all the way down already- so you put in the 15 dB pad, and all of a sudden the kick is lower, and you add a few dB back with the gain control until the signal is optimal).

Polarity is another interesting thing- a sound can be represented by a waveform, swinging back and forth from positive pressure to negative pressure through time. This is why speakers shoot back and forth- creating positive and negative pressure in the air to recreate the sound. So, a polarity switch, *without shifting a waveform backwards or forwards in time*, flips the waveform upside down, with all the positives becoming negative, and vice versa. By itself, a 'flipped polarity' track will sound basically the same. However, this changes the way that track interacts with *other* tracks, and can be a way out of certain problems (i.e., snare drum mic added to overheads actually makes the snare quieter, or thinner, because of cancellations- snare positives and negatives from different mics acting against each other. Flipping the polarity will change this relationship, sometimes for the better). Not to be confused with phase (which is actually what's happening with the snare mic and overheads), which is sliding a track back and/or forward in time in relation to another track. Not flipping it over.

Whew.

OK, what else?

Mic pre's. I don't even know if the 2 rackspace 4 channel CLM is still around- it's been about a year since I was looking at it. Good sounding, with some neat features. Green on the front...

How many channels of mic pre do you need, btw?

I don't see a need for EQ on a mic pre, unless it's a really, really exemplary EQ. Anything from cheap console to midpriced mic pre is probably not going to have EQ that's better than really good plugins, and you're better off making corrections with mics and mic placement.

I did used to post on pro audio, then I got caught up building a couple of computers and finishing the wiring in my studio (I am on a soldering break right now...). I'm sure I will be over there again when everything here smooths out- I just needed to trim out some forums!

Originally posted by mitch:
jon, looks to me like the lucid ad9624 only has wc input, not output- so would have to buy their separate clock, too .. rosetta, rme digiface and rme adi 8 ds all have wc outs, so i guess..

i just figure if i'm going to use the rme digiface, a 2-channel apogee or lucid ad9624 and some flavor of 8 channel i/o, i had better think about a clock.
someone please correct me if i'm wrong. thanks ....

Not wrong, just maybe too worried about it. I wouldn't worry about apogee vs. lucid clocks. They're both good, and one would probably have trouble distinguishing them in all but the most precise listening systems. The clock doesn't decide the quality of the converter by itself- there are a bunch of both analog and digital design issues that do that. Clock is just one of them. AFA the Lucid w/ the RME, I *believe* that you can come out of either the s/pdif or the aes/ebu on the Lucid into the RME's word clock input- I have asked on the mastering webboard for clarification of that. If not, you could clock the Lucid from the RME, and probably not hear any degredation. If you have either of these converters, it's probably not worthwhile to buy a clock just yet, as both should have perfectly good clocks onboard.

Get everything running first, and when you are happy with everything, including your engineering/mixing chops, borrow a clock and see if you hear it.

(Dead Link Removed)

-mitch
I checked out the clock on lucid's website. The GENx6 only has like a 48khz internally generated sample rate guy. I don't know if that makes a big difference, or a difference at all, but I'd just assume that if you're recording at 24 bit 96khz, you'd wanna clock at the same rate. Just some input to think about.

teddancin - their site also has the genx6-96 which runs at 96k

still haven't decided if i'll invest in the clock. it was cheap enough to consider - and i may go with the apogee and run that as the master clock .. which solves all issues...

Which apogee? That's cool about the lucid clock though. I'm going to just buy my lucid setup, and if it really needs the clock, I'll add it on afterwards. I really can't see it being a problem though.

the apogee rosetta .. i'm trying to find someone that has both setup so i can perform some sort of a/b between rosetta/lucid ... i am very new to lucid equipment.. so would love to hear any thoughts once you get yours up and running... and agree, no need to buy the clock until it's necessary - these clocks aren't trash, so the one-off pop can be corrected within your daw ..

good luck

Uh, one clarification- a working clock should produce *no* pops. Doesn't have to be a great one. Pops and clicks happen when you have pieces of digital gear that are not working from the *same* clock, and trying to speak to each other digitally. i.e., I got pops when I had a D8B and a 2408, but only when one wasn't set to clock from the other. When you have a working clock et up right, you won't get any pops and clicks at all- the clock quality will just present itself in the quality of the sound.

Originally posted by mitch:

and agree, no need to buy the clock until it's necessary - these clocks aren't trash, so the one-off pop can be corrected within your daw ..

good luck

thanks jon, didn't know that .. so i can handle getting all of the digital gear on the SAME clock ... as far as quality improvement.. i've heard people describe the differnece.. i'm not sure anything is worth $1500 for the aardvark unit, but is the sonic improvement worth $500 for the lucid ?