Have you considered the RNP preamp? It'll leave you with some extra bucks to get an RNC comp, or something else.

try dan alexander audio, do a google search.

Look at the new A Designs Pacifica... It is an amazing pre, can be colored if you want it, or quite clean otherwise. There is also a lot of gain available with it (72 dB). It is quite reasonably priced, too. Also, in the clean camp, I'd look at the DAV Electronics Broadhurst Gardens pres- very cheap, but very good.

--Ben

Hey Ben -

What's the street $ on the A Designs? I know their stuff is usually pretty darned reasonable.

Also - is it multiple gain stage?

BTW - here's my $.02 on the original question -

2 channels of Pre for $1k -

Hardly a better choice than the Summit 2BA-221. I've been using these for a while and absolutely love them. Great build, great sound AMAZING versatility (3 total outputs - balanced solid state out, balanced tube out with variable tube gain, unbalanced ss output.) Plus, it makes a killer DI box!

J.

Tubetone wrote: try dan alexander audio, do a google search.

I heard really good things about this guy (the whole NEVE phenomenon), and really bad things. Anybody else? And has anybody tested out the australian Sebatron VMP-2000e?

Cucco wrote: Hey Ben -

What's the street $ on the A Designs? I know their stuff is usually pretty darned reasonable.

Also - is it multiple gain stage?
.

List is $1900, street is probably a couple hundred less (it is listed at $1595 on the LasVegas Pro Audio site).

I don't know if it is multiple gain stage.... I could put you in touch with Peter Montessi, the designer, if you'd like to ask the question. He's a hell of a nice guy and the company is quite reasonable when it comes to demos.

--Ben

I throw-in here:

Any $1000 2 channel pre or any two $500 single channel pres will probably do you well. I agree about finding one without too many knobs, though - or it becomes a "channel strip"(Which may be OK, but that is not what you're asking for here.). "Just the pre, please!" Every knob takes away from what the manufacturer could otherwise spend on the pre, itself. Do your efx with your software or another hardware box...

You mention having a Presonus piece, now? The Presonus MP20, is rather well-regarded and in your range, price-wise...

TG

Well, I kinda disagree Teddy -

Just because there are extra knobs (potentially meaning additional features) doesn't mean that the pre has to skimp elsewhere.

I agree that a $500 preamp with an EQ and a compressor built in is likely a compromise. However, using the Summit as a base - this unit simply has multiple gain stages. This is an attribute/asset, not a detriment.

Perhaps you should qualify what knobs you're referring to. :D

J.

The Summit is a pre I would love to try(Though I have not)..! Frankly, I did not recall that it was only a grand...... Are you saying it has too many knobs or just enough? Sounds like you're taking issue with yourself? Certainly not with me? I really don't know how many "gain stages" the poster wants to "mess with", or truly(I really don't know?), how valuable it is that they all have knobs??? I'm no tech.

Me? I would look for something with an on/off switch an input gain, maybe an output gain, probably 48v phantom, a 20db pad and a low-cut switch(80hz?). Flashing led meters are pretty! A meter of some sort could be useful? I get so confused otherwise and the clients are calling, screaming, and I'm still fooling with "gain stages", which they don't want to hear, etc.

Actually, if I had a grand to spend, I would go a bit more and look into a John Hardy or a Millennia(May as well make this as confusing as possible for everyone!). Actually I wouldn't waste these pre's on the above-mentioned mics(Nothing wrong with them, I suppose, but why put a Ferrari engine in a Sonata?). With the mics in questions I would look for a couple of 500 dollar 2 channel pre, with few knobs. I think any of them would be just fine.

These are tough decisions, sooo many choices - good choices - especially when we have money burning a hole in our pocket.

On further well-considered reflection, I believe I'll drop it down a bit - Any two channel 500 buck pre AND any 500 dollar single channel pre(For your best mic) should suffice(Long as there aren't too many knobs. Ha!)...

There! Spent your grand! Feels GOOD! Back to working on the driveway...

TG

Hey Teddy -

The Summit 2BA-221 is a single channel pre costing roughly $500 give or take.

I'm not sure what you mean that I was taking issue with myself -

You stated too many knobs means that the manufacturer had to skimp elsewhere (paraphrased.) What I'm saying is, that's not necessarily the case. The Summit has 3 knobs. 1 for Solid State/DI input gain, one for mic input gain and one for tube output gain. These are all positive things. Of course - there's the 20dB pad, 48v, phase, and 3 led meter. (Oh yeah, it's got a couple more knobs too - 1 is the input impedence and the other is the sweepable highpass filter - which is also switchable on or off.)

This pre is well worth it and even with "lesser" mics, it does amazing things. I think it's one of the most under-utilized tools on the market - especially considering the price.

J.

Thanks for all the input guys. This is exactly why I can't choose. Now instead of the original three I was asking about, I have 47 to choose from. Alright alright alright. I'll probably just spin around in a room with the pre's mentioned that are in my price range, until I fall over - then which ever one I see first (or fall on) I'll throw my 1000 bucks on. That seems reasonable enough.

I would stay clear from presonus stuff. From what i've read in these parts the best pre for the money is The Brick by groove tubes. they are single units so you would need to buy 2. I think they run for $350 each.

(this ones for you johnny boy :D)

dude stickers this is the same guy that posted in the other section in which you stated the same exact thing.

I know I did.
Don't you get the joke?
I posted it again to bug you.
OK?
Try to loosen up, jonny.

Actually I'm way more laid back than I appear to be, sometimes almost in a coma like state. Anyway I wasn't sure if you were aware or not, there's many times I've answered the same question from what I thought were different people and then was yelled at because I had answered in a different thread already. So I was just trying to be helpful as usual.

stickers wrote: I would stay clear from presonus stuff. From what i've read in these parts the best pre for the money is The Brick by groove tubes. they are single units so you would need to buy 2. I think they run for $350 each.

(this ones for you johnny boy :D)

Well......An MP20 with the Burr Brown mod is not bad at all in my book for things like overheads and acoustic. I probably like it better on acoustic than the Brick. BUT, my MP20 is acting up on me recently. :cry: I open it up to see if there is anything I can fix, and I wouldn't know where to start in all that robot stuffed mess.

A grand would put you in range for 2 channels of Seventh Circle Audio stuff. Splurge a couple hundred more, and you could get their J99's. No doubt you would like those on acoustic.
This is if you buy them in kit form and solder them yourself. I'm a retarded baby when it comes to electronics and mechanical things, but I figured it out. And I'm digging it. :twisted:
Best use of your money if you ask me.

Reggie Nailed it Seventh Circle audio you could add pres as you need them and have several choises , I have 2 N72's ( Neve clones ) and 2 A12's ( Trident clones ) they ROCK !!!

You can also go with the J99 ( twin servo design nice and clean )

They all go in 1 2u rack up to pres different pres. I built mine for about $1500 , additional pres run about 250-300 each

Go here

seventhcirclestudios.com

Later
Buzz

yes good for those in the US
but for the non US there are other options

Most of us have one or two or maybe three pre's. Even if we have more, most of us bought them because they were the best looking pre in the catalog for the money we had. Very few of us compare them scientifically and even if we have, probably not "the bunch" you want to know about, with your mics, in your room, etc. All we can do is throw in our opinions, which should be taken for what they cost you - a post on a forum...

I try to look at reviews by people who supposedly do this stuff. Sound On Sound Magazine from Great Britain is a good on-line source for reviews which have been helpful to me. Also Mix Magazine and Electronic Musician reviews have been very valuable over the years. There are actual reviews on this forum, though I don't know if any are for what you are talking about?

What most of us are looking for when we post our questions is "permission".

"Hey, can I buy this?"

Incase you are, too, I hearby give you "permission" to buy. Pick a price, pick the features that you like, look up any reviews, order the thing, learn to use it, love it - for awhile - then buy another....

Cucco: Switches and knobs:

Given 3 preamps - all priced at $500.. One with 26 knobs and switches and buttons. One with 12 knobs, switches and buttons. One with 6 knobs, switches and buttons. Knowing that knobs, switches and buttons, alone, cost money - certainly if they are good knobs, buttons and switches, knowing nothing more I would be forced to take the one with the least "controls". OK?

Manufacturers put switches, knobs, lights, meters on things for many purposes. The primary purpose for most of these is because they think it'll sell better(Or just "be" better.). Doesn't mean every knob isn't valid! Just that even if a knob or switch is "valid", the user has to know what it does. Again, for a tech, who understands this stuff and has the time to use it and wants to take the time to use it, fine. Me? I want the manufacturer to "tweak" it then sell it to me, so I have to deal with as few adjustments as possible, AND, at least in the case of a mic preamps, make it "flat" and let me add/subtract whatever at some other point(For me, mostly in my software. For others maybe hardware boxes.). In the end I just want to do my project - which has nothing to do with electronics or computers or knobs, perse.

All I need, not a single knob more,

Teddy G.

I really really appreciate all the input you guys gave. I'm really digging the Seventh Circle Audio idea. I'm good with technical stuff like that, and it seems like a pretty nice setup, how you can have up to 6 pres in one chassis, adding on whenever you need to (or have the money to). Interesting idea. Plus, I like building things. Thanks again.

TeddyG wrote: Cucco: Switches and knobs:

Given 3 preamps - all priced at $500.. One with 26 knobs and switches and buttons. One with 12 knobs, switches and buttons. One with 6 knobs, switches and buttons. Knowing that knobs, switches and buttons, alone, cost money - certainly if they are good knobs, buttons and switches, knowing nothing more I would be forced to take the one with the least "controls". OK?

Teddy -

I can't see your logic here. You would simply choose a preamp based on the number of knobs it has? This makes no sense. Some of those knobs can provide great features and benefits.

FWIW, great potentiometers cost $100+ each. Most components don't use these. Very good potentiometers cost $50-$100. Many components use these. Standard to good potentiometers rund $10 - $50 and few manufacturers use these. Plain, basic, crappy potentiometers cost $.10 or so when purchased in bulk. Most manufacturers use these.

So - a given piece of gear with 3 good potentiometers on it and a few switches (even great switches are dirt cheap - it's a physical contact device, no variance in voltage, etc.) can still be reasonably affordable.

Manufacturers put switches, knobs, lights, meters on things for many purposes. The primary purpose for most of these is because they think it'll sell better(Or just "be" better.). Doesn't mean every knob isn't valid! Just that even if a knob or switch is "valid", the user has to know what it does. Again, for a tech, who understands this stuff and has the time to use it and wants to take the time to use it, fine.

This is absurd - you honestly believe that MOST manufacturers put knobs on their gear to make it sell better and really serve no purpose??? True, there are some devices out there that have knobs that are gimmicks. (Such as, in my opinion, the IDSS knob on the presonus stuff.)

However, look at the grace 101. Stepped gain for one knob and variable gain for another. This is an EXCELLENT feature - one I wish more manufacturers would adopt. You can set the device repeatedly in the same place EVERY time without having to "guess" the level. Then if you need to, you can make very minute or precise adjustments.

Now, look back at the Summit 2BA-221- The input gain and the tube output gain. How is this a wasted feature? You can drive the tube stage a lot or a little then decide how much output you'll get from it. Again, a very useful feature. And the resistance selector - a very useful tool. Try using a ribbon mic on a pre with too low of impedence. Not fun. Then of course, they could have chosen to use a crappy potentiometer on this knob b/c you don't need absolute precision on this type of control anyway - but they didn't. They used the same type of potentiometer as they did for their gain control. In other words - high quality.

There's a term for a preamp with only one knob and no other options. "One trick pony." If you happen to have an unlimited budget, get a one trick pony. Otherwise, get something you can sculpt the sound with.

Now, that being said - don't feel the need to buy some device just because it has a preamp, compressor, limiter, expander, eq, kitchen sink, etc. Many of these "budget" channel strips are problematic. Every device in the unit is a compromise.

But again - I submit that to say that one pre is superior to another based on the quantity of knobs is assanine.

Me? I want the manufacturer to "tweak" it then sell it to me, so I have to deal with as few adjustments as possible,

This is the mentality that gives so much stuff on the market a bad rap. Why do pros often hate plugins? Not because they're useless or bad (often, they're quite good). It's because amatuers buy (or worse, hack) a set of plug-ins and don't know how to use them and then resort to the "tweaked" presets - which in general, are useless and detrimental.

So, what you're saying is - you don't want to make the decision about how your gear sounds, you'd prefer the manufacturer to do that? Would you say that about a guitar? Would you say that about a piano? I hope not!

AND, at least in the case of a mic preamps, make it "flat" and let me add/subtract whatever at some other point(For me, mostly in my software. For others maybe hardware boxes.). In the end I just want to do my project - which has nothing to do with electronics or computers or knobs, perse.

What you're saying here is a complete and total contradiction.

You'll "add/subtract" (tone/timbre/etc) "mostly in my software" yet your project "has nothing to do with electronics or computers..."

Sorry - if you think music is art and mixing and recording isn't, you should return to music and stop mixing/recording. Just as important as the type/sound of violin is to a violinist, so is the type/sound of a preamp to a recording engineer. If the violinist was only able to get one type of sound from her violin, she wouldn't use it. Her art demands that she be flexible and know how to use her instrument. Does our art demand any less?

I guess it does.

:cry:

J.

TeddyG wrote: Most of us have one or two or maybe three pre's. Even if we have more, most of us bought them because they were the best looking pre in the catalog for the money we had. Very few of us compare them scientifically ....

I must be unusual then
cos I am well into double figures
:?

and catalog pictures don't drive me ...I only buy after Ive seen the lid off.
and mostly
I make my own ...
but that's another story

Enjoi you will like these pre's they are as close to the real thing as I have seen or heard ( they have all been tested by VERY good current engineers W Wagner etc. ) and used in real world situations/records.

LAter
Buzz

PS: plus they are fun to build !!!! ( just make sure you catch the output jumper on the board !! I missed it and it took awhile to find the problem >> )

Cucco wrote:
So, what you're saying is - you don't want to make the decision about how your gear sounds, you'd prefer the manufacturer to do that? Would you say that about a guitar? Would you say that about a piano? I hope not!

would not that make all the instruments sound the same?
if the manufacturer didn't direct the sound somehow?

Having only one mic-pre is also very valid.

Some engineers work such that they don't get in the way of the sound.
AND
use a mic-pre that is ... as they say ... transparent.

George (GML) is one of those engineers.
hear what he has to say in an interview with Lynn Fuston of 3dB
(dead link removed)

I can't show you directly cos the forum seems to be down at the moment ??
A few forums are down at the moment?
is something up ?

I have to agree on the Brick.

As far as the PreSonus stuff, I didn't like the M80 I reviewed at all. The tone was nothing to get excited about and I had trouble getting good levels into a +4dB line input without seriously clipping the preamp. The nominal level the M80 runs at is 0dB. Fine for -10 sytems and inserts on a semi pro mixer but in the world of +4dB line inputs, basically worthless! All the other pres PreSonus puts out are based on the same dual servo topology and operate at the same levels.

I also don't care for the RNP ... to my ears it is too thin and does not have any front to rear perspective or in other words, no depth or dimension. The RNP felt like toy in my hands and when I placed it on top of my desk the weight of the cables connected to it pulled it to the floor. A short fall of less than 4 feet to a carpeted floor, resulted in a snapped shaft on one of the volume pots. In my view the thing is more of a "boys toy" than a serious audio tool. I'm sure others will disagree but that's my take on it.

I also agree with Teddy G that at the price point you are at, anything with a lot of different sections (EQ / COMP etc.) other than the basic mic pre itself will most likely not be up to par. Your best bet on a budget is the most basic thing you can find.

Here's a link to a review of The GT Brick I just published. I hope that helps you weed out a few contenders ....

(Dead Link Removed)