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sdevino 1 January 2004

I know that on occaission I tend to push for very expensive monitors when the topic comes up, so I thought I might list some reasons to consider going for the very best you can.

  • 1. The most important reason to get great monitors is you will spend an amazing amount of time listening to them. Whether you do audio as a profession or as a hobby, you probably love music. Having monitors that do not cause ear fatigue will add to your productivity and your enjoyment.
  • 2. How can you make microphone and preamp selections if you can't hear what they really sound like? In a good set of monitors it is very easy to hear very fine details that differentiate mic and preamp combinations.
  • 3. Your mic placement will be better because you will hear subtle differences between one location or another.
  • 4. You will make better use of the acoustics in your tracking environment, because you will actually hear subtle reflection and resonance issues. Then you can solve them before hitting record. Or even better you can take advantage of them to use natural acoustics to place instruments in a mix. (reducing the need for excess EQ and panning)
  • 5. Mixing will need less EQ and you will really hear just how muddy that excess reverb makes the vocals etc. Having an accurate sound stage is 100% dependent on the accuracy of your monitors.
  • 6. Your monitors will probably outlast you in the industry. Speakers are probably the cheapest and easiest thing to refurb when they get old. Any competent speaker reconing tech can rebuild a speaker to "like new" condition for $100 or even less. (I just had a 35 year old Altec driver for a Urei 813c repaired for $35). try that with any other piece of vintage gear!
    A good rule of thumb when starting out is to spend at least 40% of your total budget on the monitoring chain (amp + speakers). If you can spend more, then do it. You are better off with a great set of monitors and an SM57 then your are with a perfect U47 and a crappy pair of monitors. The reason is that with the good monitors you will clearly hear exactly what your current gear can do and you will know when it's good and when it sucks. You also be able to hear small differences in future mic and mic preamp gear that you evaluate and make better buying decisions.

    Some of you might say "Oh but what about all the pro's out there using NS-10s?". You should note that most pro studios power NS-10s with an amp like the Bryston 4B per speaker. Thats $3000 of amplifier per channel! Oh and they also get to listen to the reference monitors that are probably $30,000 custom Westlakes or equivalents. The NS-10's are used for mix reference and not generally for tracking.

    By the way this advice holds for home stereo speakers as well.

    Good Luck and Have Fun!

    Steve

    • Comments

    Barefoot Sound Fri, 01/02/2004 - 10:36

    Originally posted by sdevino:
    ......with the good monitors you will clearly hear exactly what your current gear can do....

    Steve,

    I agree with everything you wrote except for the term "exactly".

    I guess you're more of an optimist than I am ;) , but I usually approach the argument from the opposite perspective. Speakers are by far the WORST performing audio gear. The very best speakers in the world have much worse distortion, compression, and impulse response characteristics than even mediocre electronic gear.

    So, if you think of you're entire recording system as a chain, the speakers are overwhelmingly the weakest link. Therefore, they require the greatest attention (and money, unfortunately) if you hope to come anywhere close to hearing an "exact" representation of what your recording, mixing, or mastering.

    Anyhow, I completely agree with your conclusions.

    Thomas

    anonymous Mon, 01/05/2004 - 03:44

    Hi Steve... I know that hearing exactly what you're doing is the most important thing, ... well, I'm from Brazil, I'm building one Lab at home... I don't have too much money... but I wanna have good references... first, which "monitoring chain" do you advice for me??
    I'd like to work with 7.1 surround format... But I'd like to have diferent kinds of monitoring... actually what I whant is something like this:
    A really GOOD LR monitoring chain;
    A good 7.1 surround monitoring chain;
    client speakers, over a 5.1 system;
    a whole bunch simple audio references, like sound systems speakers, computer speakers etc...
    and I know that the best reference will be my car's sound system!!... (for comparing w/ those great and classic recordings) I know how that's important, but I'm not familiar w/ makers, price, diferences between them... etc... and over here, thing are much expensive, maybe twice the price in US... and things are more dificult to get.
    thanx
    Edu

    anonymous Wed, 01/07/2004 - 15:19

    YES, YES, YES, THANK YOU ,THANK YOU, THANK YOU....YOUR EAR IS NO BETTER THAN THE SPEAKER YOU USE,FOR A MIX.....WE NEED ALL THE HELP WE CAN GET...JUST LET ME SAY,J B L , UREI, AND WESTLAKE, WESTLAKE, WESTLAKE....THESE HAVE ALL WORKED WELL FOR ME IN THE PAST...

    [ January 07, 2004, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: Dr.Blackwell ]

    anonymous Sat, 01/10/2004 - 15:21

    Originally posted by sdevino:
    I know that on occaission I tend to push for very expensive monitors when the topic comes up, so I thought I might list some reasons to consider going for the very best you can.

    By the way this advice holds for home stereo speakers as well.

    Good Luck and Have Fun!

    Steve

    Steve Devino,

    Thanks very much for this article - the content of which seems to have disappeared in subsequent posts (which argue about Behringer v. Mackie mixers and such, completely off-topic!)...

    Do you think the Genelec 1030A's are too sweet for tracking and do you think those would need a subwoofer?

    sdevino Sun, 01/11/2004 - 05:11

    Genelecs are very popular with many successful engineers. I happen to find them irritating to my ears (too much high end) so I cannot work with them for very long, but this is just my experience, you may find you like them very much. To me they do not sound flat enough to be very efficient as reference monitors.

    Again using a sub-woofer is a personal choice. I find it hard to correlate the bass that comes from a subwoofer to that which comes out of speakers. Since most of my customers are musicians who do not use a subwoofer for music, I try to avoid them.

    I do like subwoofers on my home surround system though! :D

    realdynamix Tue, 01/13/2004 - 02:16

    :) Steve, I went to a friend’s home studio to check his system with some test CD's, analyzer, and sound level meter.

    When I pumped in the pink noise at first, and started to raise gain, there came a point where the top-end on the display completely flatlined, and the low end continued to rise. We trashed his set, and resorted to some old L-100's I picked up at a garage sale for $35 for the pair. Problem solved.

    So, I guess my question is what makes a good speaker good?

    His speakers were OK up to a point, then beyond a certain level were not linear anymore. It seems a quality reference speaker should have dynamic linearity at all levels.

    --Rick

    anonymous Thu, 01/15/2004 - 05:08

    Originally posted by Rick Hammang:

    So, I guess my question is what makes a good speaker good?

    --Rick

    My opinion, what makes a good speaker? Simply, one that a person is happy with (I make no reference to sound quality here. They may or may not like it because of the sound quality)

    For me, what makes a good speaker? While many speakers can sound good. Most of the time you are making compromises. You have to come up with a speaker that sounds right (to you), matches the rest of your equipment, and performs well in your room...all this for a price you can afford.

    While most of the time speakers are a compromise. Some of the main qualities I look for are...good tone, clarity, low distortion and the ability to play dynamics at both loud levels...and low.

    What qualities do you guys look for?

    thanks...take care>>>>>>>>

    [ January 15, 2004, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: gonefishin ]

    stalefish Sun, 01/18/2004 - 09:02

    the questeds are about US$5000+ when new at that time... or so my friend claims - should be a worth while deal if i get them for less than half the price right???

    the main reason why i am posting here is because he stores them in a controlled enviroment. He's out of the country and planning either to sell them or ship them over to where he's immigrating to- the later he doesn't like ; says that it's risky transporting this kind of equipment around...

    basically i can't actually have a listen to them so i'm asking you guys what're your impressions on Quested speakers-

    imaging, noise, mids, etc

    anonymous Tue, 01/20/2004 - 17:18

    whatever you spend your days listening to music on the most, mix with those.

    thats my advice. you can buy $3000000000 speakers but if you have no idea how they are representing the sound they're useless.

    i could do a better job mixing on flat panel monsoon speakers that i have at my computer than genelec's at a $2000/day studio.

    ... and i've done it.

    j

    anonymous Thu, 01/22/2004 - 04:48

    I went with ATC SCM-20 pros,,,( 6100.oo)list US why? cause of the user list on them, if i can post it let me know, it's quite long

    I'll be demoing them at L&M against 3 or 4 pairs they carry, will post the results when i do this,,

    I liked them so much I became a dealer for ATC ..

    Sanity Inn

    anonymous Thu, 01/22/2004 - 05:24

    lol sorry , too impatient, here's a list of ATC studio monitor users..

    05-11-02: Hifying
    "HERES AN IDEA. LETS ASK THESE PEOPLE WHY THEY USE ATC"

    EMI Abbey Road Studios
    CBS/Sony UK Disc Mastering and Quality Control
    Nippon Columbia Tokyo Main monitors in three control rooms
    Warner Bros Burbank CA Main monitors
    Polygram - Wiseloord Studios
    Holland Main monitors
    Yamaha Research and Development Dept London Main Monitors
    BBC Maida Vale, Broadcasting House, TV Centre Music Studios, Transcription Recording Unit, Pebble Mill Studio 2, Wood Norton, Radio 5 and several OB Trucks
    Thames TV (The Bill and Poirot)
    Danish Radio OB Trucks
    Swedish Radio
    SBS Television Australia
    Video Tape Recording TV Production Company
    M2 Video
    Nimbus Records lots of ATC's
    Sain Records
    Sentinel Records
    Mute Records Depeche Mode, Erasure
    Birmingham University
    City University London
    Essex University Dr Malcom Harksforda
    University College San Diego
    Royal College of Music
    Royal Opera House
    Covent Garden
    Sydney Opera House Recording Studio
    Ronnie Scott's Jazz Club Recording Studio
    Pink Floyd's Studio and Dave Gilmore's Home.
    Konk The Kinks Studio
    The Real World Peter Gabriei's Studio
    The Church The Eurythmics Studio
    Sade
    Neneh Cherry
    Juni Morrison
    Julio lgiesias's Producer Ramon Arcosa
    10 cc
    Lou Reed
    Surrey University Francis Rumsey etc
    Eliabu lnhal Frankfurt Symphony Orchestra
    The The
    The Waterboys
    Tears for Fears
    Rainbow Studios Norway ECM Records
    Kenny Young songwriter "Under the Boardwalk" and "River Deep Mountain High"
    David lord Producer Peter Gabriel, Jean Michel Jarre, Van Morrison, Ice House, Kissing the Pink
    Greg Walsh Producer Paul McCartney, Tina Turner, Eikie Brookes
    Peter Walsh Producer - Stevie Wonder, Peter Gabriel, Simple Minds, Scott Walker
    Rupert Hine/Steve Taylor
    James Guthrie Producer Pink Floyd, Toto, Chicago, many films
    Curtis Schwiartz Producer
    Hans Zimmer Film Music Composer
    Mike Oldfield
    Carl Wallender World Party
    Robert Plant
    Mark Sayer Wade Sound Sculpture
    The Tale Gallery
    Krell
    NAD
    Bob Ludwig Masterdisk N.Y.
    Ted Jensen Sterling Sound
    Joe Gastwirt Ocean View Digital Mastering Greatful Dead etc.
    Cold Sweat
    Joseph Magee Freelance Classical Record Producer attached to the LA Philharmonic, Telarc
    Bruce Leek Telarc, Wilson Audio, (Mastering, recording, editing)
    Autograph Sound Recording Studio English Meyer Distributors
    Airforce Music Radio Jingles
    Shawn Murphy Top Hollywood Scoring Mixer, Hook, Cape Fear, Silence of the Lambs, Dancing with Wolves, Dick Tracey etc.
    Dave Harris Freelance Classical Recording Engineer Noteworthy Music
    Stuart Brown Freelance Classical Recording Engineer
    Peter Bronda Welsh National Opera
    Trygg Tryggvasson Freelance Classical Producer, Recording Engineer Virgin, Hyperion, Chandos, etc.
    Anthony Howells Freelance Classical Engineer, Pickwick, Hyperion, Virgin, etc.
    Paul Barmer BBC and Freelance Classical Recording Engineer
    Steve Portnoi BBC and Freelance Classical Recording Engineer
    Tony Wass BBC and Freelance Classical Recording Engineer
    Budapest Radio Film Music Studio
    John Richards Evergreen Studios L.A. (Film Music Studio)
    Hammon Studios Tel Aviv Denon Tokyo
    Windmill lane Dublin, Terrence Trent D'Arby, U2, etc.
    Pioneer Japan
    Eastcote Productions Transvision Vamp
    E Spy Studios Melbourne
    Broxmead Studios Film and TV Music Studio
    Beethoven Street Seal, Sandy Shaw
    Chapel Studios ELO, Motorhead, Saxon, etc.
    Barbra Streisand
    Moles Studio Gail Ann Dorsey, Andy Davis
    DB Studios Ghostbusters etc.
    Boogie Sound Hamburg
    Chateau Du Pape Hamburg
    Slippery LA Lethal Weapon 11 etc.
    Lansdown Group CTS - Largest independent studio in Europe, Film Music for James Bond, Batman, Superman, Passage to India, Baron Munchhausen, Jazz Don Lusher, Stan Tracey, Charlie Watts, MOR Miss Saigon, Roger Whittaker, Des O'Connor and many more
    Ground Control LA Madonna, Robbie Robertson, Julio lgiesias, Arif Mardin, Phil Ramone etc.
    Exit Lisbon
    El Alamo Madrid
    Estuidos Eurosonic Madrid
    Estudios Azul Cadiz
    Estudios Alfaguara Seville
    Kash Productions Madrid
    The Mill Cookham
    Gareth Jones Producer
    Magmasters Soho Film, TV, Pop, you name it!
    Nick Whitaker Internationally renowned acoustician
    Voyageur 11 Mobile Europe's biggest Mobile
    Rhinocerous Sydney INXS
    Greene Street New York
    Blackwiing Basle
    National Recording Studios Canberra
    Polygram Hong Kong
    Chipping Norton
    Edinburgh University Music Dept
    Fred Vogier Koch lnti, Whoopie Goldberg,
    Steve Martin
    Australian Institute of Music
    Yamaha Japan
    Apocalypse Australia
    Rich Studios Sydney
    Mark Forester (Prince and Kate Cerbrano)
    Dutch National Broadcast NOB Soho
    Beijing Radio and TV
    ABC Australia
    Sony Australia
    Institute of Sound Production Sydney
    Cold Storage
    Eden Studios Jackson Recording Co Ltd
    University of East Anglia
    The Mill Soho
    Matrix
    Fleetwood Mobile
    Mark Angelo
    The Paris Bastille Opera House
    Disney World
    AC/DC
    The Pope
    Dire Straits
    Simple Minds
    Suzanne Vega
    The Apollo Harlem
    San Francisco Symphony Orchestra
    A String Studios - Taipei
    Level 42
    Hugo Records Hong Kong
    Wirra Wilia Studios Australia
    Castiesound Studios Scotland
    Euphonia Freelance Classical (Chop 'em Out)
    Chandos
    Todd A.0. The USA's largest film scoring Stage
    CBS/Sony Sydney Australia
    Paramount Pictures Hollywood
    The Chippendales!
    Expo '92 mobile studios and PA
    John Williams- Classical Guitarist
    Hugh Padgham producer Genesis and Phil Collins
    SCI- Tokyo
    M.0.D. Brass Band Recording centre
    Cariton Television
    Copymasters London
    Divided Studios Chicago
    Polish Radio
    London College of Music
    Roger Taylor - Queen
    Gateway Mastering Bob Ludwig
    Gilbert O'Sullivan
    Freddy Star - Comedian
    Crazy Sound Guadeloupe
    Fluke
    Evelyn Glennie - Percussionist
    Toshiba-Tokyo Digital Mastering
    University of York
    Telarc
    NRS Sydney
    The Blue Nile (Linn)
    York St Studios NY
    Athens Concert Hall
    DEP INT'L UB40
    Status Quo
    Hessinger Rundfunk
    Boston Symphony Orchestra
    Taipei Symphony Orchestra - Principal Violinist
    Sting
    London Weekend Television
    Dinemec Sound - Dinemec Classic Label
    Sony Music, New York
    Albert's Music, London
    Pearson Television
    Angel Studios, London
    Fast Floor Productions 2 pairs main monitors

    anonymous Thu, 01/22/2004 - 11:54

    To keep things into perspective,

    I mentioned the monitors i chose and why, I dind't mention that they where better or worse then other brands,,,

    I figure by the user list, they've tried most brands and if these people have ATC, must be a just reason for it,,

    just enough for me too,,,

    happy decision making on your personal taste preferrences :)

    SI

    AudioGaff Thu, 01/22/2004 - 16:27

    Originally posted by stalefish:
    gee i wonder what would happen if someone from genelec were to list all their clients as well... :D

    It would very likely be a much, much bigger list. As for ATC, there is no way to know if the alleged list of ATC is even current or if those ATC users are using them as their mains or near field monitor. Big difference.

    Guest Fri, 01/23/2004 - 05:10

    I'm not really sure how different ATC's big mains sound relative to their nearfields. They build mains that are accurate and clean, not just raw power (like Uries). The nearfields use a similar philosophy, but have less power and less low end.

    Also, they have midfields...I'm using a pair of ATC SCM50a's, and to me, there is no going back to any other brand. Transients are quick and crisp, the imaging is great, bass is tight, and they are really wide dispersion, so you still get great coherence even way off axis (which is good when your FX rack is located off to the side way out of the 'sweet spot').

    As far as their client list goes...who gives a sh~t! You don't buy monitors because Sting and the Pope use the same brand....you buy them because they sound 'right' to you. 'nuff said, go out and listen!

    Cheers,

    Kris

    anonymous Fri, 01/23/2004 - 05:46

    hmm thnx for the input,,,

    I didn't buy " because" of the client list, I bought because those people on the client list have been using monitors a heck of a lot longer then me, they went thru tests and trials, and if they have these now, must be for a reason " like when you said you won't look back"

    besides, this is my 1st pair of studio monitors, i just bypassed some upgrading is all...

    also as for the " sound right to you line" i can agree with that somewhat , but if you put a proffessional pair of speakers infront of someones whos refference point is PC speakers or standard home stereo stuff ,, the NEW proper sound may not sound " right" to the novice,,

    proper sound and hearing need to be retrained when using a new calliber of sound sytem

    just my 2 pennies, ( 1.3 cents canadian lol )

    Sanity

    stalefish Fri, 01/23/2004 - 10:20

    Originally posted by Dr Frankencopter:
    As far as their client list goes...who gives a sh~t! You don't buy monitors because Sting and the Pope use the same brand....you buy them because they sound 'right' to you.

    exactly!

    ...so do the quested Q108s or VS2108s sound right to you guys? :D doesn't anyone here own a pair?!

    anonymous Sun, 01/25/2004 - 12:38

    I agree with Steve completely on the few days.

    I -finally- got a chance to demo the Earthworks Sigmas, and though ultimately I'm happy I made the choice I made, the Sigmas sound tremendous in a particular kind of way.

    But the key is, I wouldn't have known they didn't quite do the trick for me unless I'd had them a few days to really live with. An hour or so and I might have bought them. So days is good if you can get to do it.

    It's worth "paying for them to audition and returning if you don't like them". Most reputable audio dealers will be happy with that arrangement.

    rufuss Mon, 01/26/2004 - 12:43

    I wouldn't believe the hype, just get an opinion...

    a famous user's list is quite useless in a mixing situation anyway, as for judging monitors i only rely on the accuracy,comfort and good translation to the real world...
    i used to work on NS10s, never got used to them(when on a lot of people wouldn't mix on anything else), bought genelec 1030s, i feel great with them but would still need a pair of auratones for a second perspective...
    the accoustic of the room has a dramatic effect on how we judge the monitors, i just don't like the way some genelecs sound in some other rooms...
    It really all depends, and as long as it works for you... ;)

    rufuss
    producer/mixer

    sosayu2 Fri, 01/30/2004 - 08:18

    the subject of nearfields is a personal one. i myself use tannoy lgm's i know a lot of mix engineers who still use ns 10's and put out great mixes. it's all on what you hear and what you're used to. i tried the genelecs and they were a little harsh for my taste but i am never opposed to trying new things and seeing what's out there.

    moles Wed, 02/18/2004 - 23:57

    I must be one of the few oddballs that actually LIKES the way NS10's sound. It's interesting to me that I seem to hear comments from both sides of the fence - that they are both flat and too midrangey. My experience with them came before I even knew about their fame, I just plain liked the sound.
    The other two rooms I've mixed in had a pair of Genelecs (didn't like the low end) and Yamaha MSP5 (I think, they were smallish, though not the smallest in that line). I thought the Yamaha's were crushingly trebley, but there may have been some issues with the way they were set up.

    So having said that, I am now using the Yorkville YSM1P powered nearfields. I am curious about others opinions about these. I find them pretty nice to work on, for as little as I can say about the subject. If I start getting some work, they may not be suitable though - any thoughts?

    anonymous Thu, 02/19/2004 - 17:24

    There's a Quested H-108 on Quested's web site, and they're selling for under $1000 at http://. Dave Collins, a fantastic mastering engineer, uses them at his place, and a few engineer-buddies use them too...

    I listened to them about a year ago and decided that they were a little bright for my tastes; not Genelec bright, but just a little too much on the top... I went with ProAc Studio 100's in the end, and bought a second pair cuz I love 'em so much! They're powered by Hafler 9505's....

    And to add to the discussion about the monitors and amps, what about speaker cables??? Call me a gear junkie, but I've been trying a couple of different cables, and when you get into the serious stuff (bought used and cheap at audiogon.com) there's an enormous difference!

    Cheers,

    RH

    anonymous Sat, 02/21/2004 - 03:06

    Originally posted by allaccess:

    And to add to the discussion about the monitors and amps, what about speaker cables??? Call me a gear junkie, but I've been trying a couple of different cables, and when you get into the serious stuff (bought used and cheap at audiogon.com) there's an enormous difference!

    Cheers,

    RH

    Speaker cables are just as important as the monitor its going to, yeap.

    anonymous Sun, 02/22/2004 - 14:28

    I will have to say that I love my Genies. I have 1031As in my apartment and had to learn how to mix through a room. As for the highend being harsh, it is if there is too much direct refelection. I had the problem of mixing too litlle high end because of this, but the -2db switch and a curtain fixed that.

    With these monitors, the truth is there. I will play my mixes on any other system and I might hear somteing that I missed. But when I go back to my room, I hear what I missed. Some systems pronounce things more than others. The Genies pronounce evenly. Others may also, but these do.

    BTW, mentioning Bryson...I had a 3b powering some NS-10s...it was great, but now that amp is my bass amp...with a Ravenlabs USIP. watch out. :mad:

    -BH

    anonymous Fri, 02/27/2004 - 15:00

    The last time I was around here, there was some buzz about the Yamaha MSP5s being a good successor to the NS-10s. Has that claim been refuted by new evidence?

    I havn't had the cash to start purchasing the pieces for my home studio, as I'm not a musician... I'd like to be an Engineer. After ramming my head against the lack of employment in the area I've been forced into I stopped even lurking... but I've still got an interest.
    'd be a shame to not put the degree to use.

    anonymous Tue, 03/02/2004 - 16:13

    Hello,
    I found on http://webbd.nls.net:8080/~mastering forum interesting review. I also try Lipinski but small L505 model. It's really excited. Nothing compare to this. Open sound,fast transient,no distortion.You can hear real sound without coloration. Excelent for any music. I totally agree with Bob Katz! It's worth any money! I plan to buy 5 for surround.
    Sincerely
    Jarek Regulski
    http://www.studiobuffo.com.pl

    Conf: GEAR-WHAT'S HOT!/WHAT'S NOT!
    From: Bob Katz bobkatz@digido.com
    Date: Sunday, February 29, 2004 02:05 AM

    I've just converted from my A-Class Reference
    3A's to A+ class Lipinski L-707's.

    I highly recommend you look into these
    loudspeakers for any mastering or high-fidelity
    listening applications.

    Warning: The same as with any top-notch
    loudspeakers---if your ancillary equipment is not
    first rate, these speakers will reveal any defect in
    your system, room acoustics or program material.
    Make sure they are solidly mounted on sand or
    lead-shot-filled stands. Make sure the stands do
    not rock one iota. Then, patiently and carefully
    place the speakers in their optimum position for a
    wide, even soundstage, and make sure your ears
    are at tweeter height (very important for the tonal
    balance and phase coherency). You will then be
    rewarded with the best sound you have ever
    heard.

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