Well,
there is absolutely no reason at all to go with ProTools. Unless you will use it for something. So do not ask this kind of questions. Unless of course you first tell us what you think you want to do. If all you want to do is to calculate you finances, I think Microsoft Excel is a much better alternative.

Sorry, but I was taught not to use a hammer to put screws into place.

Gunnar

Hey, someone may want to explain to you what a TROLL is and what they do. You maybe border lining that.

I think it's a valid question / post ... not toll like in the least .. but then, I'm coming from the same place radioliver is .. is there some dirty little secret to hide, that causes eveyone to be so worried that the topic might be disscussed?

So without me bashing PT, tell me what is so much better about it? Why shouldn't protools be compared to those budget nuendo studios? (budget ??? last time I looked, Nuendo was pretty expensive) ...

My bad...just checking. :oops:

engineering philosophy: "you can paint the same mural with many different brushes; from far off, you'd never know the difference, nor prefer one over another."

I'd say that any platform that allows you enough tracks, a high enough bit rate/resolution, plugins, etc. is ganna get the job done.

it's more or less ganna be your recording/mic'ing and mic's used/pre-amps/mixer/outboard gear/and biggest of all..EXPERIENCE!!!!!!

man i can honestly say that as an engineer, compared to the big time pro's,,, I SUCK!!! that doesn't mean i'm incapable of recording and mixing a good sounding album, it just means that i'm still learning, and developing my routine that works best for me, so that i can start doing ONLY what works, and NOT waste time with things that sound bad.

here's a few things to think about:

NIN, Marilyn Manson, Linkin Park, most rap/hip-hop artists, used pro-tools.

However, A Perfect Circle, Skinny Puppy, and a lot of industrial artists used logic.

DRUM AND BASS!!!! if you're familiar with it, the trend seems to be Cubase. (although me and my crew use logic)

when i looked in the musician's paper in nasheville, all the studio's used pro-tools.

my point here--------> THE PLATFORM YOU USE DOESN'T MAKE YOUR STUFF SOUND ANY BETTER!!!!!!! IT'S YOUR EARS!!!

although pro-tools is the leader in most "BIG TIME" studios, it's not doing anything special that makes the records sell over non-protools production.

hope you don't spend money on anything you don't need.

Well up to now, I'm not convinced to pay 5000 to 10000$ more for protools. Come on! Your supposed to convince me. All I heard right now is that it is another alternative. I don't like more expensive alternatives unless they have advantages...so please speak out loud you protools lovers!

Well up to now, I'm not convinced to pay 5000 to 10000$ more for protools. Come on! Your supposed to convince me. All I heard right now is that it is another alternative. I don't like more expensive alternatives unless they have advantages...so please speak out loud you protools lovers!

I wouldn't quite consider myself a "Pro Tools lover", but the reason it costs so much more is because you're basically buying a digital mixer and effects processor that goes inside of your computer when you buy a Pro Tools system. It gives you more power than any native system (because you still have the native power of the computer as well) and if you run out of processing power you can just add more cards. The better plugins are also much better than any native plugin, again because when they code the plugins they don't have to worry so much about making them DSP efficient because the know what they'll be dealing with in terms of processing power. I imagine that's why audiokid said it shouldn't necessarily be compared to a "budget Nuendo studio" (although as Kurt mentioned, Nuendo is a fairly expensive software program, so I imagine most "budget" Nuendo studios are likely using cracked software...

But if you don't need all that power, and don't need to be compatible with other Pro Tools users, and don't want to spend the extra money, then don't...from a software perspective, what's "better" is really more a matter of personal taste than anything.

-Duardo

I think that Pro Tools is the Kleenex of the recording industry.
Name recognition, in other words.
I f I say, "Hand me a Kleenex," and you hand me the white label tissue... I'll probably blow my nose and not even know the difference.
At this point, I think that most musicians look for Pro Tools because it's what they've heard about.

So I would say...screw the Mac/PC crap and get a RADAR. :wink:

Radar - Yeah, I've seen more and more frequently. Everyone I've talked to about the system says it sounds less digital and more like tape, but it's still a hard disk based system. Any opinions?

radioliver wrote: the point of the thread is to convince me! Now go on PT people. :lol:

Although I love my kick ass nuendo rig, I use Protools for about 90% of the work that I do. There are 2 reasons to stick with it.
#1 - you want to be compatible. Everybody uses it, so if you get a project from another studio, it's probably going to be protools.
#2 - It's a rock solid system! (and I'm not talking about the native LE system... this is HTDM only)

Protools LE is pretty much a pile of shit... stick with the TDM and HTDM systems.

OK... now that I said the only 2 reasons why you would want to go with Protools, here are the things that you will be missing with a budget program like Nuendo (Oh... by the way. Did I mention that my Breaking Benjamin record that I did mostly in Nuendo just went Gold? :wink: )

- Phase reverse switch on every channel (uh... come on Digi!)
- automatic plug-in delay compensation in the entire signal path
- Assignable key commands
- 32 Bit float internal processing (24 bit fixed point processing sounds like... well Digi)
- Faster than real time mixdown
- multiple shuttling speeds from the transport
- Archive and backup features right from the audio pool
- Advanced crossfade editor
- unlimited undo/redo with EDIT HISTORY!! (this rules)
- Folder tracks (boy does my PT session look cluttered)
- UNLIMITED AMOUNT OF AUDIO TRACKS!!! (no "voice" limits like in PTHD)
- COPY / SAVE / OR LOAD CHANNEL SETTINGS! (hello, this makes mixing much easier)
- peer to peer collaboration with tcp/ip (multiple people can be working on the same project at one time. Just hit the "update" button for you session to reflect the other persons edits or additional tracks)
- Last, but not least, USER DEFINABLE MACROS

The list goes on and on and on... but it just goes to show that PT wont be top dog for long.

I don´t think you´ll need PT for anything else than if you have a lot of people requesting it or if that´s the software you wanna use (the hardware choices get pretty limited in digi-land). You will get the same (or better) quality if you spend on good AD/DA converters and a quality wordclock. Then if it´s Nuendo, DP, Cubase or Logic is just a matter of which environment you wanna work in. When it comes to processing power you´ll get a long way by adding a TC Powercore and a UAD-1. The powercore is very similar to the digi-core-cards and that´s why you find an increasing number of 3rd party plug-ins for it, they are pretty easy to convert to powercore once they are made for TDM. That´s the future I think, dsp-cards for native systems. Cards that will run any vst/AU plug-in. Once they are out there, digi is dead. Save your money, go native. That way you can upgrade your system piece by piece instead of bying a new $15000 digi-core-system every third year. The future is native, if they can send a man to the moon they can build dsp-cards for native systems that can run any plug-in.

Yes, Radar is a disk based system... and there are no plugins, so it's probably not what you're looking for. I would just prefer to work on a machine that wasn't built for web surfing... but that's just me. I don't even own one yet anyway... I'm just lusting and hate my computer.

I agree, that Pro Tools will not be top dog for long.

Hey, you can get an used dual 1 GB mac for under 1K, Digital Performer for $500 new and a used motu 828 for under $500 or a new one for $700- So for around $2k or less you can get the best (IMHO) - unlimited tracks, good plugins- the works!

Now realistically you could get around 40 to 50 quality tracks with plugins with that set up... need I say more?

Utimately, this is a loaded question cuz it's very much personal preference. What makes you comfortable. I think ProTools has a great package, however, I do most of my work with Nuendo. Nuendo seems to emulate the analog environment I grew up with. Total personal opininion but, who cares. My work station is my work station.
Like shoes, a lable has never made me feel comfortable. And you may not feel comfortable in my shoes.

- automatic plug-in delay compensation in the entire signal path

Don't they have that now?

- 32 Bit float internal processing (24 bit fixed point processing sounds like... well Digi)

Pro Tools LE runs at 32-bit float. HD is 48-bit fixed.

- UNLIMITED AMOUNT OF AUDIO TRACKS!!! (no "voice" limits like in PTHD)

Is 192 tracks really not enough? And just because your software doen't limit how many audio tracks you can have doesn't mean that you actually have unlimited tracks.

The future is native, if they can send a man to the moon they can build dsp-cards for native systems that can run any plug-in.

If you're running on a DSP card, then it's really not a native system any more, is it?

-Duardo

I find dustbros comments to be very revealing ... considering he is about as "entrenched" into the pro scene as anyone could be. Thanks for the insight dustbro ...

Ok well I have a q10 with a really powerful PC running Nuendo (3.2 Ghz 1gig RAM) and that cost me 4000 CND$. Thats 3000U$. Unlimited tracks and seriously, I think I can go unlimited, it never lags with 35 tracks full of plugins. My system is as stable as it can be. Pc loads in 5 secs. and never crashes. I do not see protools working for me, but I do understand why someone a bit snobbish would want it...I really don't get the advantage of the compatbility thing...The point of a studio is to be self sufficient in your recording needs. Anyways, that's the way I see it. If you want Big studio sound quality, don't spend your money on a home studio, keep the money for the big studio.

PS. Kurt, your signature is a bit depressing...cheer up!

I don't remember advantages of PT, but i remember flaws:
No freeze, only 2-4 convolution reverbs
No TDM samplers: it's impossible to play a soft instruments orchestra in real time (shame on digi).
No soft instrument integration: you have to create 3 different tracks to record a soft instrument.
The summing is 48 bit, but the paths are 24 bit, and the sound is muffled.
The MIDI features are less than those found in the '80 sequencers
The marketing forces you to spend 15K$ every year.

I switched to Logic because (depending on disk speed) i can run virtually any number of soft instruments and convolution reverbs, thanks freeze.
The sound quality is enormous, with 32bit floating fron IN to OUT.
Perfect soft synths integration.
Great editing features, automation features and GUI.

Kurt, your signature is a bit depressing...cheer up!

It's liberating ... :D All's good! Happy!, Happy!, Joy!, Joy! .....

Duardo wrote:

- automatic plug-in delay compensation in the entire signal path

Don't they have that now?

Maybe... but it sure did take them long enough. I've been enjoying this feature for 3 years now.

Duardo wrote:

- 32 Bit float internal processing (24 bit fixed point processing sounds like... well Digi)

Pro Tools LE runs at 32-bit float. HD is 48-bit fixed.

Protools LE is ABLE to process plugins in 32bit float (all native plugs are 32bit float), but PT has to truncate it back to 24 bit after processing.

Duardo wrote:

- UNLIMITED AMOUNT OF AUDIO TRACKS!!! (no "voice" limits like in PTHD)

Is 192 tracks really not enough? And just because your software doen't limit how many audio tracks you can have doesn't mean that you actually have unlimited tracks.

Dude... 192 tracks at 44.1. In the world of 96K, 64 voices barely cuts it... and you get cut back to 16 voices in 192K (unless you were suckered into the excel BS that will get you 32 voices at 192K)
I easily run 90+ tracks at 96K on my box without being bogged down by assigning voices.

Kurt Foster wrote: I find dustbros comments to be very revealing ... considering he is about as "entrenched" into the pro scene as anyone could be. Thanks for the insight dustbro ...

My pleasure 8-)

Protools LE is ABLE to process plugins in 32bit float (all native plugs are 32bit float), but PT has to truncate it back to 24 bit after processing.

And why is that a problem?

Dude... 192 tracks at 44.1. In the world of 96K, 64 voices barely cuts it... and you get cut back to 16 voices in 192K (unless you were suckered into the excel BS that will get you 32 voices at 192K)

You get 96 tracks at 96kHz, and 36 tracks at 192kHz.

And what did you mean by "only 2-4 convolution reverbs"?

-Duardo

dustbro wrote: [quote=radioliver]the point of the thread is to convince me! Now go on PT people. :lol:

...here are the things that you will be missing with a budget program like Nuendo.

- Phase reverse switch on every channel (uh... come on Digi!).

Samplitude does it, even on objects, not only tracks.

dustbro wrote: - automatic plug-in delay compensation in the entire signal path

Samplitude does it.

dustbro wrote:
- Assignable key commands

Samplitude has had this feature for years.

dustbro wrote:
- 32 Bit float internal processing (24 bit fixed point processing sounds like... well Digi)

Samplitude has been doing this for years too.

dustbro wrote:
- Faster than real time mixdown

Even Saw Plus 32 was able to do "faster than real time mixdowns"

dustbro wrote:
- multiple shuttling speeds from the transport

Samplitude, again...can do it.

dustbro wrote:
- Archive and backup features right from the audio pool

Another old feature for Samplitude.

dustbro wrote:
- Advanced crossfade editor

Samplitude has it's own one...and it's not new neither.

dustbro wrote:
- unlimited undo/redo with EDIT HISTORY!! (this rules)

Samplitude does this too.

dustbro wrote:
- Folder tracks (boy does my PT session look cluttered)

I don't know what this is...so I can't answer.

dustbro wrote:
- UNLIMITED AMOUNT OF AUDIO TRACKS!!! (no "voice" limits like in PTHD)

Samplitude it's known for it's "unlimited tracks feature and unique object based way of working", so You'll never need too many tracks. But if you want more, you'll have them depending on your cpu processing power.

dustbro wrote:
- COPY / SAVE / OR LOAD CHANNEL SETTINGS! (hello, this makes mixing much easier)

Hello, how'you been ?...well, Samplitude has this on it's mixer, you just press some buttons called "snapshots"...as easy as pressing the memories on your car stereo.

dustbro wrote:
- peer to peer collaboration with tcp/ip (multiple people can be working on the same project at one time. Just hit the "update" button for you session to reflect the other persons edits or additional tracks)

I don't know if Samplitude does it, because I don't care too much about it.

dustbro wrote:

The list goes on and on and on...

Same with Samplitude... :-?

Pt right now it's "just another system" a expensive one, but nothing out of this world.

Marcus Black wrote: That´s the future I think, dsp-cards for native systems. Cards that will run any vst/AU plug-in. Once they are out there, digi is dead. Save your money, go native.

Well, the future is just months away...check this out...

http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20040902_135943.html

MeTheAudioPhile wrote: Radar - Yeah, I've seen more and more frequently. Everyone I've talked to about the system says it sounds less digital and more like tape, but it's still a hard disk based system. Any opinions?

Yeah. It's a great system. I've been working with two local groups who each did their first albums in a "big time" PT studio here in town - which also has all the requisite "big time" outboard candy as well. They were less than thrilled with the results on a number of levels. This is the very same "big time" studio that I recorded an album in when it was still all analog (including a 2" Sony deck) and I wasn't terribly impressed with the final result either. The point here being that experience plays a far more crucial role than any rack full of high dollar gear. I make no claims to being a top flight recordist (far from it in fact), but I do spend a great deal of time up front with things before the red light ever comes on.

After tracking just the bed tracks both bands were amazed to hear what a Radar sounded like, and those were just with rough mixes. The word seems to be spreading - I've just recently been contacted by a couple of other groups who've had "less than inspiring" experiences with the aforementioned "big time" studio and want to do their next projects at my place.

True, there's no plugs with the Radar but that's not the niche or market they're after. I've never been a big fan of plugs anyway. I did just recently pick up Sound Forge and it's got a few plugs but I haven't spent much time with it yet. Hasn't been an issue for me or the groups I've been tracking, and I've done a variety of genre's lately. Granted, I'm not exactly in a major music/recording market either and I'm not making my living doing this.

I guess the point, to me anyway, isn't necessarily what system one uses to record with, but rather the care one takes in getting the sounds recorded. I've watched a few sessions get done in the local "big time" studio with PT and I simply didn't care for the work flow or the sounds I was hearing. Work flow issues aside, had more care and attention to detail been taken up front on those sessions, I'd bet they would have sounded a lot better. I suspect that, in the hands of a competant user, a PT rig (or any decent DAW for that matter) can sound as good as anything else out there. IMO, experience and a passion for making things sound as good as they can is the key.