Reminds me of the saying "trying to get blood from a stone."

I get the distinct feeling the production company is going down.

Ya, I wouldnt doubt that, but I wonder where that puts me as far as ability to collect if the material was indeed broadcast?

Not meaning to ask questions which lead to hard looks...
How much are we talking about?
Chasing coin costs money.

Thousands and did I mention that my attorney is a good friend AND a musician himself? :wink:

Cool, get your friend to call a debt collector.

It’s probably a good thing that you got your letter in early. When bankruptcy is declared, the judge will have strong case to allocate funds your way.

Well the studio has left a message with my attorney now, wanting to make a payment plan. Lol! I never would have guessed that I'd be on the RECIEVING end of a payment plan. Anyway, we're going to offer something like half plus one fourth plus one fourth and anything less, we'll be pulling the plug on the end user's spot. I'll let you know how it turns out.

E

That shows that they really do appreciate your services! Even when sinking they still tried to settle the debt to you, good job!

Totally awesome job!

This is like the best outcome you can expect from a debtor.

Unfortunately, you can say this is just me being paranoid, but, they are stalling for time. They admitted to the debt back when you said;
"After a letter back from the CEO saying that he was sorry and embarrassed by the situation, and that he was sure he wanted to work with me again, and that they were about to have a meeting to figure out how to pay multiple debts that they owed".
Now they are just buying time.

When a company goes bankrupt the debtors get payed a percentage of what they are owed. Say a company owes $10 but only has $1 when liquidated. That means you get payed 10c on the dollar. Minus costs...

A good debt collector will be able to tell you (ignoring unpredictable human BSting) the best possible way for you to gain. They should know what that company owes, what it is worth and how much you stand to gain pursuing them down the many paths you can take. Seriously, get professional advice.

Yeah, I'm not jumping for joy yet. I dont even know if they will be able to cough it up and I agree that they are probably just stalling for time. We'll see.

E

Well you have all of these transactions documented for the courtroom.

Link555 wrote: It’s probably a good thing that you got your letter in early. When bankruptcy is declared, the judge will have strong case to allocate funds your way.

This is what I was going to post.

Your official request is in. Keep checking on the company's situation.
If you PM me their name, I can check into their situation as well.

They are having "CEO can't handle his coke" problems.

"They are having "CEO can't handle his coke" problems." /quote

Many a good company has gone belly up from staying nose down!

The way things work.

In good times 30 days was a good net pay from advertising companies. 90 days was considered "normal" and 120 days was not out of the question. If you were running a commercial recording company and you were doing lots of spots for the advertising company it really did not matter since after the initial 30 days you were getting paid on a regular basis. There was always more money in the money pipeline and even if you were slow for a week there was money coming in. That was then this is now.

Today everyone is taking the maximum time to pay. Most companies are hurting with the current economy slow down and if you are at the end of a long pay down chain you could be looking at 3 to 6 months to get paid for a job. Cash flow is always the problem in a mini recession like we are currently in. Everyone wants to hold on to their money for the maximum amount of time either to earn interest or to pay off their creditors that are the first in line or more important to their well being. If you are in financial trouble the first people you want to pay off is the bank so they don't foreclose on your property, your employees so they don't leave and anyone else like the electric utility so they don't turn off your lights. All the rest of your creditors can form a conga line and wait to be paid.

It sounds to me as if this company is having money problems and you are paying the price for their problems. You are doing all the right things and hopefully you will be paid. It maybe that the company ran into a dry spell and had to dip into their current operating funds to pay for their "in your face bills" like the bank and their employee's salaries leaving them no money to pay you. I don't think it is fair to say that their CEO is having a coke problem since it maybe something completely different ( and you may never know the real reason) and it maybe as simple as their biggest client went belly up or went somewhere else for their work. It can happen to anyone and it can happen overnight.

Best of luck and in the future maybe do your billing differently. 1/3 down, 1/3 on delivery of the spot and 1/3 when the spot airs. That way you have 2/3rds in your pocket and they have the spot that they can run.

Well according to the latest, I will be paid in full by the end of this month. It's too bad that it had to come to threatening them with a lawsuit to make it happen. I really enjoyed both projects I had done for them and they paid me fine for the first one. It was just this last one that was the problem. I dont think I'll have to worry about them to asking me to do more work for them. I'm glad I'm getting paid and yet, believe it or not, it bugs me to lose a client as they were one of the first I had gotten over a long distance connection. So hard to get new ones. Oh well. I gave them six months to pay before asking my attorney for help and a big problem on thier end was lack of communication. I cant tell you how many phone messages and emails I left with them that never got returned. If they had been open and honest about whatever thier situation was, they probably could have strewn me along a little farther. Maybe.

Thanks everyone for your ideas and support. Whatever contract I make from here on out, I stil wont release rights until full payment is made. It's the only thing that saved me this time. I agree that I should get some money down next time but sometimes these things come up so fast and have to be done right away. With the production company 1200 mile away, I couldnt just ask them to cut me check and hand it over. I had the spot done before the mail would have made it between the two of us. Anyway, have a great SUnday everyone.

E

EricWatkins wrote: Well according to the latest, I will be paid in full by the end of this month. It's too bad that it had to come to threatening them with a lawsuit to make it happen. I really enjoyed both projects I had done for them and they paid me fine for the first one. It was just this last one that was the problem. I dont think I'll have to worry about them to asking me to do more work for them. I'm glad I'm getting paid and yet, believe it or not, it bugs me to lose a client as they were one of the first I had gotten over a long distance connection. So hard to get new ones. Oh well. I gave them six months to pay before asking my attorney for help and a big problem on thier end was lack of communication. I cant tell you how many phone messages and emails I left with them that never got returned. If they had been open and honest about whatever thier situation was, they probably could have strewn me along a little farther. Maybe.

Thanks everyone for your ideas and support. Whatever contract I make from here on out, I stil wont release rights until full payment is made. It's the only thing that saved me this time. I agree that I should get some money down next time but sometimes these things come up so fast and have to be done right away. With the production company 1200 mile away, I couldnt just ask them to cut me check and hand it over. I had the spot done before the mail would have made it between the two of us. Anyway, have a great SUnday everyone.

E

Have them use PayPal. You will have your funds over night. Or ask them to do direct deposit in an account that you setup for this kind of event and then move the money out of the transfer account into a real savings or checking account. There are lots of ways in this digital age to get around the "check is in the mail" routine. Best of luck and I am glad you are going to finally get paid. We have two BOZOs that still owe us money and I am about to turn them over to a collections agency.

Another thing to consider in future work...When you do work for an agency, they are billing through to their end client. When the payment situation derails and trails off into the weeds with the agency, you can then approach the end client for the payment...particularly because THEY are the ones using the uncompensated work.

Absent payment, any contractual agreements vis a vis ownership of the rights, is moot, it all reverts back to you, so non-payment by the agency leaves the end client open to having to pay synch rights, songwriter royalties, SR royalties, the whole kit.

Then again, it may be the end client that went belly-up!

Often, small ad shops have 3 clients that comprise 90 percent of their revenue. Losing one of them for some reason is usually devastating.

dwoz

dwoz wrote: Another thing to consider in future work...When you do work for an agency, they are billing through to their end client. When the payment situation derails and trails off into the weeds with the agency, you can then approach the end client for the payment...

dwoz

Right :)

The end client has no idea who you are, except another freak standing on the sidewalk screaming at the window "I want my money!"

Bad idea.

I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on TV but common sense would be that if you are billing a company that is slow to pay and you try and go around them to the ad agency that is working though them you have no legal claim on the ad agency since they are doing work with the second party and not with you.

You are dealing with a "third party" and not with who really owes you the money. They are out of the picture and off the table when it comes to getting paid what is owed you. You have to do business with the people that really owe you and not with someone twice removed.

FWIW and YMMV

Space wrote: [quote=dwoz]Another thing to consider in future work...When you do work for an agency, they are billing through to their end client. When the payment situation derails and trails off into the weeds with the agency, you can then approach the end client for the payment...

dwoz

Right :)

The end client has no idea who you are, except another freak standing on the sidewalk screaming at the window "I want my money!"

Bad idea.

My dear Space...you ever been within 50 feet of an ad/production agency?

MOST of the time, with respect to direct production services, the agency is acting as an AGENCY, which means something very specific in the realm of commercial business transactions.

It means that the actual buyer is the end-client, not the agency itself.

See, it goes like this: if an agency buys music from you, for a client's commercial, then the agency would take ownership rights in the IP, and subsequently turn around and "sell" that to the client. But that's not the way it's done, AT ALL. For IP stuff, the agency acts as intermediary, negotiating and consummating the transaction ON BEHALF OF the client, therefore is never actually "in possession" of the IP. For things like promo materials...brochures, etc., this is not the case, but for stuff like creative products, Intellectual Property products, it's very much the case.

So, the "client" is most certainly aware of "who that freak out on the sidewalk" is.

It's important to remember that IP rights are very different than other stuff that's bought and sold, and they're treated differently. If I order a bunch of brochures from a printing company for you, and never pay them, but give you the brochures, the printing company can't go after you to get those brochures back...I'm the only one they can go after. But with a musical composition, same scenario, the composer can go after ANYONE, ANYWHERE that is using that uncompensated composition, and get a cease-and-desist.

OF course, what I'm saying here just goes for the majority of agencies...there are many out there that cut deals in many different ways. IANAL...YMMV...ETC.

dwoz

Oh no he did'n.

Thomas W. Bethel wrote: I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on TV but common sense would be that if you are billing a company that is slow to pay and you try and go around them to the ad agency that is working though them you have no legal claim on the ad agency since they are doing work with the second party and not with you.

You are dealing with a "third party" and not with who really owes you the money. They are out of the picture and off the table when it comes to getting paid what is owed you. You have to do business with the people that really owe you and not with someone twice removed.

FWIW and YMMV

The difference here is that we're talking about IP rights, not about some product or service.

The finer points of the legal exposure of all interested parties is way past the scope of an audio forum...but essentially, you own IP rights in your work. Client is using/has already used your work in their marketing materials. Client paid agency, agency never paid you.

Your contract with the agency is then broken, and they in essence never owned the right to use your work in the client's ads. The client is now using your IP without a legitimate right to it, and at the very least, you can force them to immediately stop using it. At best, you can take them to court to get compensated for the extant use, at statutory rates. I doubt very much you could get damages, but that's something else. At that point, the client has a claim against the agency, to get the money back they had to pay you.

If you're lucky, the composition is something that has been deeply incorporated into their entire marketing identity. That would be good, because it would cause SO MUCH PAIN for them to have to cease using it, immediately. If you're not so lucky, and the composition was just some bed to a one-off commercial, then they won't be particularly responsive to you, and it won't matter to them to just discontinue it.

THing is, Mr. Bethel...these kinds of screwy pay-through/bill-through transactions and snafus happen ALL THE TIME in the marketing/agency world.

The legal term you're searching for is "first sale doctrine". WHich doesn't apply to IP.

dwoz

"My dear Space...you ever been within 50 feet of an ad/production agency? " /quote

Well, I did a harmony part of some copy I helped pen back in 1980ish +/- in the recording studio that our band worked out of and Gray Agency had an office in...that's within 50 feet.

Seems like contract labor to me. Remember, I am a construction rat, everybody should be aware of this by now :)

I think all your flowerdy talk may work for someone of the stature of say, Brett Favre in his negotiations with the Europe Football League, but it is not going to help the OP any.

I am not disagreeing with you specifically. Only that it is a lofty goal that seems to have no legs in this issue.

But maybe you have seen an ad agency closer up then I and have some extra ledders behind your name that support what you speak, ah, type.

Brien, C.R.

Space wrote:
Seems like contract labor to me. Remember, I am a construction rat, everybody should be aware of this by now :)

I think all your flowerdy talk may work for someone of the stature of say, Brett Favre in his negotiations with the Europe Football League, but it is not going to help the OP any.

Often agencies will want to commission music compositions as "work for hire", at perhaps a somewhat larger up front cost, to avoid the hassles of determining royalty payments later on. As part of a work-for-hire contract, you formally assign all your rights to the company that's hiring you.

...but the big point here is, it's STILL a contract, and when the contract isn't PAID, the terms of the contract are moot. Therefore, the work in question remains in the ownership of the contractor. This is different, also, between a STAFF composer who's paycheck bounces, and an independent contractor who is working on a job basis.

Now, I don't care if you're some little teeny guy doing work for a little teeny shop. The same concepts apply as the big boys.

Now, maybe what you mean is that the dollar amounts aren't enough to bother chasing, but what I read from the OP was that he was contracted in the "thousands" range. A mom-and-pop ad shop putting together radio spots for the local tow guy doesn't spend "thousands" on custom music. They go to the royalty-free libraries.

So, I think that it's probably quite apropos to the OP situation.

The bigger ad agencies have WHOLE DEPARTMENTS devoted to clearance of royalties...

dwoz

I did get paid. All of it! Yeeeaaahhhh!

What did it take to make it happen Eric?

Congrats dude :)

Excellent!