My payment for my work for this ? .....Nothing. How can people like this and particularly the television channel be stopped from taking advantage of independent recording artists / engineers in this arrogant and disconsiderent way ?

Why did you not charge for your work???
You have no one to blame but yourself for giving away your talents.

The television channel has nothing to do with this, the shows executive producer was paid, why didnt he pay you???

As long as you're willing to work for free, folks are going to take advantage of it. If you want to get paid for your work, send them a quote for the job. If they like your work and your rates are reasonable, you'll get paid.

Well no wonder you're not making any money from your studio! You're not charging anything!

How was the deal negotiated? It's not their job to just give you money, it's your job to ask for it. You're the one who sets the rates buddy!

Always remember..... Something for nothing is worth nothing. Always charge something, even if you lowball it. I've made my living working in audio for over 36 years so......

Rich in equipment. Poor in finances.
Ms. Remy Ann David

TVPostSound wrote:

My payment for my work for this ? .....Nothing. How can people like this and particularly the television channel be stopped from taking advantage of independent recording artists / engineers in this arrogant and disconsiderent way ?

Why did you not charge for your work???
You have no one to blame but yourself for giving away your talents.

The television channel has nothing to do with this, the shows executive producer was paid, why didnt he pay you???

You obviously misunderstood my post.
First off read my lips you fool. The television channel believe me has EVERYTHING to do with it. Why? It's glaringly obvious. The show's executive producer works for and on behalf of the television channel.
Therefore ANYBODY employed by that television channel IS that television channel and ALL are responsible.
Secondly, plainly my post was an enquiry as to what official organisations if any might help PROTECT independent recording artists and enginners from unscrupulous users like the afore mentioned.
Finally and most importantly, do you think I would be so damn stupid as to work for free ? NEVER ! NEVER ! NEVER !
I told the contact who originally foolishly approached me about the work what he could do with it.
I'm sure you are aware of the phrase " where the sun doesn't shine.

zemlin wrote: As long as you're willing to work for free, folks are going to take advantage of it. If you want to get paid for your work, send them a quote for the job. If they like your work and your rates are reasonable, you'll get paid.

Hi Zemlin. Love your photo. Read my quote reply to TVpostsound.
And by the way, I've made quite good earnings from my studio work. In fact recently I'm signed with a 3 year contract.
I referred to my DEMO submissions that were'nt being heard by the right ears ( up until now that is ).
As you of course will well realise there is OTHER work that audio engineers do in their studios isn't there. It's paid me well.

I still don't get it. You first postmake it sound like you did the work and got your name in the credits. Is that the case or not? Your next post makes it sound like you told them to take a hike. Which is it?

If you did the work without negotiating any sort of contract and just expected to work it out later, then you're the fool.

If you they told you up front that they wouldn't pay for your work and you told them to get lost, then you didn't get taken adavantage of and are just complaining that they would even come to you under those terms?

You're not making a lot of sense.

You obviously misunderstood my post.
First off read my lips you fool

If thats your attitude, then you know where to stick it too!!!!

Hope thats not your professional demeanor, or maybe you would never be stupid enough to say that to someones face.

speakeasy wrote: Since '96 after countless demo submissions etc I am yet to earn any income from my work.

vs.

speakeasy wrote: And by the way, I've made quite good earnings from my studio work

If you are going to work for free then that is what people will want to pay you. They are not going to GIVE you money unless you ask for it

I have a good friend that is making a very comfortable living off doing composing for video programs. He is very savvy in working with TV producers and networks and negotiates all kinds of contracts on a daily basis. You might want to talk to someone who is in the business and find out how they go about negotiating the price and how to get a proper contract arranged with the people who are paying for your services.

>>particularly the television channel be stopped from taking advantage of independent recording artists / engineers in this arrogant and disconsiderent way ?<<

The TV channel has NOTHING to do with it. It is the person who's selling them the music (your friend in this case) that's asking you to work for free. But, asking is NOT forcing...

>>If there happens to be any formal body or company that can repremand these users I would be very interested to know<<

Ah! Allow me to propose the following:

1) If you are a COMPOSER you would have jumped at the chance to have TV credits for a show, for obvious reasons. Virtually EVERY composer known to man has started doing free work. Either for student films or any thing that could give them exposure AND credits. That's the way it has been and the way it will be.

2) If you are NOT a COMPOSER and are instead more of a producer then, that would not be a field you are interested in therefore, the point is moot.

3) People can (and will) ask for whatever they think they can get. It is up to you, and ONLY you to decide when it's worth doing a job for free and when it isn't.

It is NOT illegal to ask for a freebie or a spec deal.

Don't be so bitter - it doesn't help you further your career. Look at everything as a possible opportunity and then, decide whether that opportunity is worth anything to you or not...and act accordingly.

If your composition/production work is good you'll get better gigs in due time.

CombatWombat wrote: I still don't get it. You first postmake it sound like you did the work and got your name in the credits. Is that the case or not? Your next post makes it sound like you told them to take a hike. Which is it?

If you did the work without negotiating any sort of contract and just expected to work it out later, then you're the fool.

If you they told you up front that they wouldn't pay for your work and you told them to get lost, then you didn't get taken adavantage of and are just complaining that they would even come to you under those terms?

You're not making a lot of sense.

CombatWombat is a great name for unintelligent beings such as yourself.
I'll spell it out. I never at any stage said that I DID ANY work for these users AT ALL and I also have had enough god damn industry experience to know better. MY POST originally was simply to ENQUIRE as to whether AS IN THE CASE OF OTHER ORGINISATIONS such as CONSUMER AFFAIRS, MINISTRY OF FAIR TRADING, etc etc, there might be a company that acts on behallf of independent recording artists and engineers industry and professional rights.
WHY DO I ASK ?
Simple - BECAUSE I WANT TO REPORT THESE USERS in the hope that I might HELP OTHERS. GET it now ? No ?
OK, for example, in case of COPYRIGHT, if it is deemed that the unlawful copying of ANY work be it music, recording, artwork or any product non arts related, then there is action that can be taken to repremand and even penalise unscrupulous and unethical people who take advantage of professionals.
But the thing is NO ONE as yet has responded in anyway helpful at all, but that's fine because it just confirms that right now, this being my last post,
I have great things to do.
Thanks sincerely to ( you know who you are ) for your help with Kontact.
Might'nt have seemed much at the time, but helped me immensley.

>>for example, in case of COPYRIGHT, if it is deemed that the unlawful copying of ANY work <<

Breaking a law is NOT the same as asking someone to do a 60 sec. piece for free.

You are confusing the two.

Jesus Christ! Listen to yourself! You sound like a little kid. I don't know who you think you're impressing by tossing out the insults and throwing a little temper tantrum. It reminds me of my 6-year-old nephew, seriously.

I'm glad you have enough "god damn industry experience" to know that you shouldn't work for free. Congrats. :yes:

And, just to let you in on a little secret about communication. If you send out a message, and no one understands it...it's YOUR fault. Not ours. Interesting concept!

Love,
Tyler

Somebody flag this thread and this moron, ASAP.

He doens't know how to write a coherent post, and resorts to insults and cheap shots the moment he's given advice he doesn't want to hear. ( I read the initial post, and from the way it's written, it does indeed read as if he's already done the work discussed. His problems are grammatical and syntax, NOT the answers he received...)

What an utter waste of time for everyone who tried to help him. Whoever he is, and wherever he works, he has some SERIOUS personality issues to sort out.

Not with an ELEVEN-foot pole, nope!

I love these tirades!

Makes me feel a live!
Ms. Remy Ann David

I was wondering when Remy would chime in!!!! :lol:

CombatWombat wrote: Jesus Christ! Listen to yourself! You sound like a little kid. I don't know who you think you're impressing by tossing out the insults and throwing a little temper tantrum. It reminds me of my 6-year-old nephew, seriously.

I'm glad you have enough "god damn industry experience" to know that you shouldn't work for free. Congrats. :yes:

And, just to let you in on a little secret about communication. If you send out a message, and no one understands it...it's YOUR fault. Not ours. Interesting concept!

Love,
Tyler

Thought I'd return for a laugh.
Tyler, I definately 'aint religious but never use " the Lord's " name in vain.
Incredible isn't it. NONE of you floundering fools have as yet offered ANY constructive suggests.
I can think of one organisation that might just be of help. APRA.
If you happen to be an Australian, it's the Australian Performers Rights Association.
Simple... that's the kind of answers that I was hoping I might receive - not a flood of abuse.
To the person who said " If I send a post that no one can understand "
etc.... my post was easy enough for any simpleton to understand....seemingly.

G'night all. ...forever

How can APRA help you? What are you gonna say? "Hey, I was approached by someone in TV who asked me if I could donate some music for free, and I said Hell No!"

I think they might just ignore you, and maybe laugh into their coffee.

Unless it was a job you actually finished and failed to receive payment for, in which case you would go to the courts and sue them for non-payment. But you didn't even take the job so .... what's the problem?

How can APRA help ?
My oroiginal post was not about work I had completed or done. It simply seeked comment and suggestions in the possible scenario where it may happen to someone else.
In that case APRA might just be able to help by
referring whoever may be concerned to a music lawyer.
Laugh into thier coffee ? Definately NO.
A job I actually finished and failed to receive payment for ? Read one of my earlier replies.
NEVER would I be so foolish as to let my good work out the door without being paid for it.

There will always be people trying to take advantage of talented musicians by trying to get stuff for free, but it's at the discretion of the musician if they want to do the work for nothing - there's nothing inherently wrong with someone asking for freebies!

There may be some other benefit, such as your name on the credits of a very reputable TV show which you can then use in your CV as you build your musical career, after all no other TV producers would need to know you didn't get paid for that particular job. It could be used as the proverbial 'foot-in-the-door', and once your foot's in the door you suddenly become a credible (and payable) talent.

I think if you approached APRA they may suggest you take the job unpaid anyway if it's offered - purely for the other benefits associated with it.

RE

Not sure why you would ask for help from the great people of this site only to totally disregard and put down anyone who replies? If your first post isn't getting your point across (which obviously it isn't), just edit it so that we can get a better understanding of your dilema. It's hard to make out what the problem is through the miscellaneous insults thrown about in your replies.

Have a good one,
Wyatt

bewarethanatos wrote: [quote=speakeasy]Since '96 after countless demo submissions etc I am yet to earn any income from my work.

vs.

speakeasy wrote: And by the way, I've made quite good earnings from my studio work

I had to repost this 'cause it really does embody a good question. Are you making money or are you not? If you're not doing this professionally, then why not do a freebie for credits? I know I would jump at the chance. One project doesn't make a career but it could start one. Why throw away an opportunity for potential thousands (millions?) to see your name in referrence to the show they just watched? That seems far from a bum deal to me. Actually it sounds more like free advertising and that I can tell you is expensive. Up to tens of thousands of dollars for a simple box in a retail flyer(I work with the marketing dept. of my company. Just a shipper though.).

Good god. Are you back for MORE!?! I assumed you'd had enough of people letting you know you're a complete asshole.

Tyler, I definately 'aint religious but never use " the Lord's " name in vain.

CombatWombat is a great name for unintelligent beings such as yourself.
I'll spell it out. I never at any stage said that I DID ANY work for these users AT ALL and I also have had enough god damn industry experience to know better.

Uh huh.

If you're gonna lie, at least do it right. Now you're not just an asshole, you're dumb too. It's a common, yet very unflattering combination.

I think communication is the main issue here [Dr. Phil voice]

Seriously dude, just speak eeeeasy....calm down, breathe, and we'll get through this together

CombatWombat wrote:

Tyler, I definately 'aint religious but never use " the Lord's " name in vain.

CombatWombat is a great name for unintelligent beings such as yourself.
I'll spell it out. I never at any stage said that I DID ANY work for these users AT ALL and I also have had enough god damn industry experience to know better.

Ok. That had me rolling for a while. That's just way too funny!

hueseph wrote: [quote=CombatWombat]

Tyler, I definately 'aint religious but never use " the Lord's " name in vain.

CombatWombat is a great name for unintelligent beings such as yourself.
I'll spell it out. I never at any stage said that I DID ANY work for these users AT ALL and I also have had enough god damn industry experience to know better.

Ok. That had me rolling for a while. That's just way too funny!

Hehehe.

Well, technically, he used the TITLE in vain, but the point still is made.

OP is an "interesting" person. :wink: