I'm tempted to lift a bibliography off the web and post it here just to establish my credibility before offering my thoughts. Instead, I'll just submit that I'm a gay, half-black, half-Chinese, and quarter Navajo women's studies major who grew up in the LBC.

The topic is good and the discussion is great but like many of life's great mysteries, points are won and lost here with hypotheticals and anecdotes--a copy cat killing here, a rap star murdered there,

These are aberrations--death by heart disease, now that's something that is happening so much we can really talk about it with big numbers and pie charts and everything! Heart disease is truly a purveyor of death and sadness. (Kind of like bagpipes.) Rap is not a problem. People are not dying because of rap. Music is not dying. Rap is not killing art. Rap is not a cause or a symptom. It's a new way of expressing ancient ideas. Violence percolates through societies however it can. The popularity of rap is a different question, I suppose, but I wonder how many fans of Gangsta Rap are actually gang members, drug dealers, etc? I bet it's a slim minority.

The ultimate question to ask here is what makes people--anyone, anywhere, anytime--violent. Good luck on that one.

How about this: (here comes the hypothetic) if rap music was determined to be the leading cause of violent behavior among youth in the United States, would we want to pass legislation banning that form of expression?

isn't public nudity illigal (for the most part)?

I strongly disagree. I believe music of any type influences the behavior of adolescents. I know it did for me when I was a kid.. if not for The Beatles , Jimi Hendrix, Jefferson Airplane and Janice Joplin etc, I wonder if I would have ever experimented with drugs, became a hippie or dropped out of school.. ??? But do I think we should pass a law controlling music and media? No, not unless it's me that gets to make the decision what is censored.. :D ... and I think everyone else would say the same thing if they were honest with themselves.

Parents need to pay attention to what their kids watch, listen to and see on the computer. Parents need to pay attention to what video games their kids play. The reason these kids are going bad, using drugs, piercing their bodies, shooting classmates, killing and joining gangs is because people have children without ever considering how large a commitment it is.. without realizing that they will have to devote the next 20 years of their lives putting that child first, paying attention to every nuance of the child’s life, making sure they do their homework, that they take a bath and brush their teeth, who they hang around with, what the school is teaching them, how they are eating and what they are watching on the TeeVee and listening to, on the radio and the computer, in effect, being up that kids butt at all times.

You can't take a kid, plop them down in front of a TeeVee for 10 hours a day to baby sit them and then when they turn 13, let them run wild doing whatever they please and expect it all to turn out ok.. I have to say I think much of the Urban and Hip Hop / Rap music scene promotes piss poor values, .... dressing like sluts or clowns, bump and grind, promiscuity, inflated importance of cars, jewelry, clothes and livin' the large life, in general (and much of the “Alterative” and Metal stuff with tattoos and body piercing, mutilation, isn’t any better) but in the end, it is the parents responsibility to watch what is influencing their children and to see to it that they grow up to be a healthy happy person.

MANTIK: Good thoughts and good thread... looks like you really got some people to start thinking. One of the major problems with society today is that most people refuse to think, it's too scary. It's much easier to rationalize.

Back to your orginal post, I think you could make a better comparison between the Gangster Rap artists glorifing / preaching violence against women, police and US society, and the Mullahs of the Wahabi sect of Islam preaching the same thing. They're singing the same tunes, just using different languages.

If I were the station engineer at Algecirez TV (or however it's spelled) I would hope I would have second thoughts about making the Mullahs look & sound their absolute best. But, no one has proven scientifically that the preaching of the Mullahs has directly caused any suicide bombings. So, I guess I should just shut up, draw my paycheck, and do the best job I can to help sell them and their ideas to the public.

I'm just glad I don't have to rationalize a dirty job to make a living.

Joe Crawford
Stony Mountain Studio
Shanks, WV 26761

Attached files Dream dream dream bass line_1.mp3 (4.7 MB) 

I agree, Kurt, but that's really the first step a parent should take. If they talk with their children about the media and get them to understand how it relates to the world around them, then they can trust them to not use it's influence in a negative way. My parents let me watch all the horror movies/video games/music I wanted as a six year old, because they talked with me about it and knew I understood that I could not go out and behave like that in real life - and it all has influenced me in a positive way.

Originally posted by mitzelplik:
Would these lyrics cause a member of this formu to go out and rape somebody? I doubt it.

And so do I,but that is not my point.My point is that the censorship argument is a false and misleading one.We are posting to a site that has and exercies the right to edit or delete any post,and ultimately ban any poster whose posts it deems counterproductive to the real intent of the forum.In other words,censorship.And no one has yet pointed that out.

We live in a nation full of social censorship,
social pressure,and professional arm twisting.Do you really think that public information is not censored? Not by the government perhaps but when is the last time you heard the word "**** " on public TV.Or a woman refered to as a "bitch" or a "whore"? Censorship in America is like the elephant in the living room,it's so big most people are afraid to acknowledge it's presence.

Originally posted by johnnyrock:
And so do I,but that is not my point.My point is that the censorship argument is a false and misleading one.We are posting to a site that has and exercies the right to edit or delete any post,and ultimately ban any poster whose posts it deems counterproductive to the real intent of the forum.In other words,censorship.And no one has yet pointed that out.

We live in a nation full of social censorship,
social pressure,and professional arm twisting.Do you really think that public information is not censored? Not by the government perhaps but when is the last time you heard the word "**** " on public TV.Or a woman refered to as a "bitch" or a "whore"? Censorship in America is like the elephant in the living room,it's so big most people are afraid to acknowledge it's presence.

I gotcha johnny, I was just taking the opportunity to make a point! :D

I'd have to say that our government plays a large role in accessibility to information, materials, and so on, or should I say denied accessibility. Its those with power who determine what to censor. Its our government's assumed responsibility to support (read: finance via corporate welfare, pentagon system, etc.) our ailing implementation of capitalism. So the government, by determining the composition of the powerful financial elite of this nation play a huge part in censorship. And it exists in a most virulent form here in the Good Ole Land of the Free But that's another topic.

I agree full scale with Kurt's opinion of parental responsibility. However I'd like to append his thoughts with my own. At some point in a person's life, she becomes responsible for her own actions. At this point, parental guidance delivered over the years begins to have its biggest effect. (of course this point is hard to pinpoint, and it definitely is not at 18 years of age)

But no person can use the defense that her rearing is to blame for her actions as an adult. I've committed crimes, acts of violence, etc. But i had a choice, and I made that choice. I have since grown to understand those choices I made in the context of my persona, my ignorance, immaturity, social conditions, and so on. But it was still Mark S. Jones who made that choice.

If I kill a cop, can I blame Ice T.? If I kill a sheriff can I blame Tombstone (classic movie BTW)? If I sell drugs, can I blame Jay-Z? If I blow up Miami, can I blame the prototypical Arabic bad-guy character from True Lies?

I wish I could. I would rule the world!!!!

mitz

Originally posted by cheap bastard:
Instead, I'll just submit that I'm a gay, half-black, half-Chinese, and quarter Navajo women's studies major who grew up in the LBC.

Hey you're 1.25 people!! :d:

Rap is not a problem. People are not dying because of rap. Music is not dying. Rap is not killing art. Rap is not a cause or a symptom. It's a new way of expressing ancient ideas.

Its not even new. How long has rhythmically spoken word been a part of the human experience?

Violence percolates through societies however it can. The popularity of rap is a different question, I suppose, but I wonder how many fans of Gangsta Rap are actually gang members, drug dealers, etc? I bet it's a slim minority.

The problem with that question is the labels. If it were only that easy to categorize. I know of a man who has four children by four different women. He made choices and they're the result. Some years ago, he had a near-death experience (got shot in the right temple), made a change in his life and became more devoted to his religion, his mother, his younger siblings (his dad killed himself so he was the man of the house as a teen) and his children. He's now engaged to one of those women. He gives all of his children proper guidance as a father and he wants to provide for all of them financially as well, but he's unable to with the wage he earns. So he sells drugs. I consider him to be a good person, based on what I know of his personality, and he's a close friend. Compelling huh? the point is, it can never be black and white.

The ultimate question to ask here is what makes people--anyone, anywhere, anytime--violent. Good luck on that one.

Bingo.

How about this: (here comes the hypothetic) if rap music was determined to be the leading cause of violent behavior among youth in the United States, would we want to pass legislation banning that form of expression?

Yes. The collective that is termed 'we' would want that. A corollary is, could we achieve that prohibition? Sounds like the war on drugs to me. Another is, would this 'leading cause' be replaced by another 'leading cause'?

mitz

I'm sorry, Mitz--I misspoke. I'm actually 1.37 people, as I forgot to mention I'm also 12 percent Antarctic.

I never answered the initial question. Would I feel I'm being socially irresponsible if I produce a graphic gansta rap record?--or--Would I feel responsible if some kid killed himself or others and after the fact his parents blamed his actions on a record I made? No--not one bit. Not one tiny, tiny bit. Okay, maybe a tiny bit. I would be sad people die and are hurt and there is violence--perhaps that's what I was expressing in the first place in the music that unintentionally influenced someone to do ill.

The world is too random and chaotic to assume your work will not be misinterpreted or misused regardless of its content or purpose. Listen to enough Barney records backwards and you're bound to hear him saying something about how killing goats for Satan is fun.

I'd feel bad as well, but definitely not responsible.

Mastering engineers are paid to master

What they master is up to their clients.

I don't personally like some of the lyrics on some of the material that I master but I always do a professional job on any thing that comes across my desk. It is my job. It is the way I make enough money to stay in business.

If I started making content value judgment on the material I master then I am imposing my feelings, my ethics and my personal values on the material which is not what I am paid to do.

The client is asking me to use my professional mastering skills to master their material. They are not asking me to pass on its content or musical style.

If they ask what I think I will tell them my personal feelings in a very open and honest way but I will still not let my personal feelings cloud my professional approach to the mastering.

My best suggestion to anyone who is having bad feelings about what they are mastering is to simply refuse the whole job. Just ask the client to go some where else.

If this will ease your conscience then do it.