:p
Opus

Yup, I've read the review comparisons between chipsets, and they had the SIS come out behind in the graphics score.

There's just one thing:

Those little piss ass review nerds don't give a flyin shit about computers applied to professional music and PCI bus issues.

There, I've said it. :eek:

And on a saner note, here's something I've been tracking since the middle of last year from the SIS website:

"To resolve the PCI-133 bandwidth bottleneck, 3 technologies are utilized in SiS961, namely multiple DMA buses, Multi-threaded I/O Link, and MuTIOL® Connect. Instead of connecting all the I/O bus masters to the PCI bus, each integrated I/O bus master as well as the PCI master clusters is offered a dedicated DMA bus with separate address bus, input data bus, and output data bus that features pipeline & split transaction. The integrated Multi-threaded I/O Link further buffers and manages these multiple DMA buses to ensure concurreny of multiple upstream and downstream data transfers. Finally, the MuTIOL® Connect interfaced the Multi-threaded I/O Link interconnects the SiS961 to a series of SiS NBs, including but not limited to SiS640, SiS740, SiS645, and SiS650. The MuTIOL® Connect features a bi-directional 16 bit data bus operating in 4 x 66MHz delivering 533MB/s bandwidth"

See, somebody does care!........

thanks, tommy p. specs on the sis board look fantastic - have seen the reviews putting it tops in graphics and gaming. i'm in final stages of building a pc.. and wanted to buy this board (speed, specs, etc)- but could not find one person actually using it for pro audio - couple happy guys with older sis boards and others with stories of incompatibilities and instability. i can't speak for sis not ever having owned one of their products, but until i find someone (even one person right now) how has documented good news on this chipset, i still think i have to side with the intel (the big question is whether to go with the i850 board and Rambus, or DDR memory in the 845D). Wish you luck in your work. Thoughts are apprec.

OK!!! I just got the AsusP4S333-VM with 1.4Ghz P4, 320 Watt PSU and a case for 315.00!!!
That covers two day shipping as well!!!!!!!!
What a bargain..I'm starting off with 512MB PC2100 DDRam and will up it as I need it!!
So far I've spent 475.00 on this new system!!
I cant wait to actually get it now and put it hru the test!!
I will of course let you all know how it goes and if it's truly worth it!!!
I'll probably get the board sometime next week as well as the memory..I've allready got everything else so I'll slap it together and post my results!!!
Peace
Opus

god bless you, mr opus. anxiously waiting for your thoughts. the Asus site says this has the SiS 650 chipset - any idea how this is different from the 645 chipset found in the Asus P4S333 board? and while i'm bombarding you with questions, was this a clear cut decision over the likes of the Intel 845 or 850 chipsets?

apprec the help.

I'm so fucking tired of new technology! Just when you think you have something all figured-out...whap...back to the damn drawing board! I'm an AMD man, but I gotta check this out...

So true Smawg!! Thats why I waited as long as I did!! I'm patient..a good quality to have these days I might add!!
I will definatley let you all know what I find with this new setup o mine...I know it's going to rock my world!!
Now, I've got to go meet up with me fellow co workers to have a guy from Steinberg talk to us about Nuendo(ha..like I dont know it allready :p )
I'm just going to hit him up for free software!! lol!! I love my job!!
Opus

Okidoki...I did a little homework...and, as usual, I'm more confused and have more stupid questions...
The Asus motherboards mentioned above are very different from each other:
The P4S333-VM is based on the SIS650 chipset. It has 3 PCI slots and supports 2Gb PC2100 (2 slots). Hmmm...so why do they label it "333"?
The P4S333 is based on the SIS645 chipset. It has 6 PCI slots and supports 2Gb PC2700 (3 slots). I found it on Pricewatch for $99 + shipping.
BUT ... the P4B266 has Intel north AND south bridges! It has 6 PCI slots and supports 2Gb PC2100 (3 slots). Pricewatch ... $142 + shipping.
So, since the drawback with the Intel-based boards is always the damn VIA southbridge, would this non-VIA board perhaps be prefered over the SIS-based boards? As far as price goes, if the $43 difference is going to break you, then you shouldn't be blowing your money on your computer! The real issue here is performance and stability.
And the CPU: I searched Pricewatch by just entering "P4 1.6a", and came up with only 1 listing ... $160 + shipping. 1.7 ... nothing. 1.8 ... $220 + shipping. 1.9 ... nothing. 2.o ... LMAO, better win the lottery! Anyone have a link to get these cheaper?
Are you sure you can SAFELY O/C the 1.6 to 2.2??? What kind of heat is that going to generate? Very special cooling needed to do it? Assuming that it can be done safely (?), would that same theory apply to being able to O/C the 1.8 to 2.4? Assuming that it can be done safely, could someone explain EXACTLY how to do this O/C procedure? It would be terribly irresponsible to tell people how cool this is, and then find multiple posts where guys are frying their new mobos ... hehehe.
OH...and OPUS...you lucky SOB! Isn't that like working for the mint and getting to bring home free samples? Hmmm ... maybe I should talk to Joel about going to work for Soundscape ... :D

None of the SIS boards use a VIA southbridge! They use an SIS southbridge. :p it's called the SIS961 and is described in my post above.

Here's a link to a retailer I trust here on the east coast, and some real nice people, [="http://www.essencompu.com/nupplysingar.asp?ID=1662"]P4 1.6a[/]="http://www.essencom…"]P4 1.6a[/] . I've been in the store in person, and they have a good rep in the online world.

Here's the Asus at the same place. It has the six bus mastering PCI slots and will allow you overclock up to 2.2Gig to 2.4Gig with a P41.6a [[url=http://="http://www.essencom…"]P4S333[/]="http://www.essencom…"]P4S333[/] . I don't think the VM version will allow the FSB overclock and it only has 3 PCI slots.

The Asus P4B266 uses the Intel 845D and uses DDR ram, its also a winner. [="http://www.essencompu.com/nupplysingar.asp?ID=1448"]P4B266[/]="http://www.essencom…"]P4B266[/] .

If you go the RDRAM route, you won't be able to overclock.

Now let me say this, when I say overclock, there isn't much stress being placed on the chip as would usually be the case. Intel has manufactured a racing engine in the "a" core P4, and we are only taking off the governor!

I also love buying from newegg.com on the west coast, but they sold out of the 1.6a pretty quickly. They have the 1.7a and up, but they are all the same chip, so why pay more?(most of the new "a" core chips max out at 2.4gighz overclock).

EDIT #1: I've been a member(subscribed) over at Anandtech for a long time now, and this Northwood chip is hot news. The overclock is with the stock heatsink/fan runs cool! So use one of these Zalman heat sinks and run at 20db noise floor, quieter than the Carillon computers! [[url=http://="http://www.zalmante…"]Zalman[/]="http://www.zalmante…"]Zalman[/] . They also have the quiet power supplies that have a temp sensor that lowers the fan speed if the ambient temp stays below a certain level.

Heres one of the threads at AT on the new sensation. [="http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=40&threadid=703133"]Hot deals forum[/]="http://forums.anand…"]Hot deals forum[/]

EDIT #2: I'll be glad to help anyone through the set-up process on any of these boards. Get some good ram preferably Crucial. Here's the factory direct link with the special 15% off [[url=http://="http://www.crucial…"]15% off Crucial[/]="http://www.crucial…"]15% off Crucial[/]

the 256mb DDR PC2100module is CT3264Z265 @ $71.39 ea,
the 512mb DDR PC2100module is CT6464z265 @ $143.00 ea.

Mushkin is another good brand of ram.

You can also find some DDR PC2700 but I don't think anyone will need it. Heres why. The P4 is a quad pumped FSB(front side bus) running at 4 X 100=400FSB. The ram runs at only 100FSB(thats why PC1600 DDR ram would work fine if we didn't want to overclock). PC2100 is 133Mhz ram.
So heres the math: The P4 1.6a uses a 16X multiplier(locked by Intel). 16 X 100 = 1600 Mhz.
16 X 133(PC2100)= 2128Mhz. So without even overclocking the PC2100, we are at 2128Mhz!
16 X 138 will get us 2208 Mhz (with the CPU cruising along at 552FSB. So much for AMD's 266FSB)(Rambus RDRAM is 100Mhz ram @ 400CPU FSB). I've had my Crucial PC2100 solid at 145, so I believe I can safely recommend to everyone that 138 is gonna happen for ya.
Now if you get my drift, some of us are gonna get to a rock stable 2320Mhz with standard cooling.(with the CPU at 580 FSB!)

LOL, and by the end of the year, everything will be past 3000Mhz and we get to start all over. What a racket.

Newegg back in stock again for $148.00+6.95 S=H, no tax unless you live in California. [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.newegg.c…"]newegg.com[/]="http://www.newegg.c…"]newegg.com[/]

Edit#3 fixed Crucial link

Tommy P.

And let me clarify....I goofed and typed VM since I was looking at that model on the ASus site in the meantime. I did get the Asus P4S333 with the 6 PCI slots!! Wouldnt think of getting anything with less than 5!! lol
I cant wait!! I cant wait!! Woohoo...finally a system that will let me do competely insane things!! Hee hee!!
Opus

Guys, there's a lot of P4 socket 478's on Pricewatch that don't say "a", but DO say 512 cache - If all the older p4's only have 256 cache, does that mean that all the "512's" on PW are the newer Northwood ? Also, has anybody seen a DDR MoBo with more than 3 ram sluts ? I'd like to be able to run a gig of ram without resorting to 512 meg chips, since it seems that all the 512's have to be registered (extra clock cycle) for the MoBo to find its ass with both hands - if I could find a 4-slut MoBo I could do a gig with 256's. Anybody? Plan to slaughter credit cards on Tuesday, finalizing parts list Mon. nite. Good news fer shure on the O.C. stuff - I really didn't want to pay $200 more just to get over 2 gHz... Steve

Tommy,
I think you misunderstood my post. Here's my point...
The P4S333 and the P4B266 are very similar. Both have 6 PCI slots and 3 DDR slots. The P4S333 uses SIS north & south bridges, but the P4B266 uses Intel north and south bridges (neither of them have VIA chips). So, my question is...
Would it be worth the extra $43 to get the P4B266 due to the fact that it uses Intel chips rather than SIS chips? Is the P4S333 just as good? Just as stable? Does the P4B266 overclock the same as the P4S333? Same results?

Sorry!, misunderstanding things is my interpretation of everything, ask my wife :D .

I am personally interested in the SIS 961 southbridge because of SIS's highlighting of thier special technology to remove the PCI bus as a bottleneck. Seems they've done quite a bit to address issues.

There are also some highlights of the Asus P4B266(Intel 845D) to consider. The P4B266(not the "C" version) has 4-USB 2 ports. If future audio interfaces utilize this standard, it may be of importance.
Also the Intel ATA controller in the 845D chipset is optimized for thru-put because of the ICH2 South Bridge and a specially developed caching driver called Intel Application Accelerator. The SIS board doesn't have this, and lags slightly in benchmarks of the disk I/O subsystem.

Both of these Asus boards have been successful in achieving the overclock with the new P4 Northwood.

If a retailer lists the 512 L2 cache of a P4 processor, it would have to be a Northwood core, but calling the retailer by phone would be the best way to avoid misunderstandings, IMHO.

:p

By the way, my preference to this new setup with the Northwood/SIS is

a) lower heat from the CPU so I can use a slower fan with less fan noise.

b) better floating point performance than AMD.

c) robust PCI bus(less dropouts from PCI wait states, reduced clock jitter)

I'm using an AMD/SIS735 now and am impressed with it. [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.anandtec…"]link to my main rig[/]="http://www.anandtec…"]link to my main rig[/]

Tommy P.

Hey Opus, what brand/model PSU and case? And what vendor? This northwood chip & mobo combo has got me ready to take the dive. Of course, i bet I'm not the only one chomping at the bit waiting for Opus' (our beloved guinea pig) report. :)

Gary,
Just thought I'd throw in some case info for you...
A VERY good case/PS is the Antec SX1040(B). It has a killer 400 watt power supply, and the case comes in beige or black. You can find them in the $130 range on pricewatch.
If you want something less expensive, here are a couple of links for you...
http://www.savingxoom.com/midatxpen4ca1.html
http://www.savingxoom.com/codatx90serc.html
The second link, the server case, seems like a pretty good deal for $50 + shipping. I checked the AMD site, and the PS is indeed on there. To me, that gives it some credibility, although I know nothing more about it. If you have the extra bucks, though, the Antec is "THE SHIT" (meaning good...lol).

A couple of comments:

I've purchased about 7 of the [="http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=manufactory&catalog=7&manufactory=1516&DEPA=1"]ANTEC Mini Tower ATX Case Model SX635 with 350 Watt Power Supply cases[/]="http://www.newegg.c…"]ANTEC Mini Tower ATX Case Model SX635 with 350 Watt Power Supply cases[/] $79.00, great cases which will accomodate the Zalman cooler. They also come with a good 80mm fan, and have snap-in space for another by the hard-drives. This case can also be had without power called the SX600 for about $45.00, you'll have to hunt for it though.

On the Zalman cooler, note the 20dB is in the "silent" mode, which probably won't do if you overclock. Otherwise I think its 36dB.

Enermax makes great power supplies, the [[url=http://="http://www.newegg.c…"]ENERMAX EG365P-VE( FC )[/]="http://www.newegg.c…"]ENERMAX EG365P-VE( FC )[/] 350W Power supply is extremly quiet and arguably, the best on the market. They also make larger ones, but the 350's should be just fine for most users.

Definatley go DDR and buy direct from Crucial.

I was a day away from an 1800xp upgrade with the
Gigabyte Ga-7dx(?) and would like to know a few things :

1)Would this be a better alternative as far as processing and plugs go? and

2)would this chip work well in a dual board config if I decide to go that way in the future?

3)I know the heat issue will be better, but
will my Delta 1010 be happy with this config?

Thanks in advance , and this looks like it might be just what I am going to do.

sorry for the double post
One last question:
jscott,
What is the diff between the power supply you mentioned(ENERMAX EG365P-VE( FC ) 350W Power supply) and this one that someone else suggested(ENERMAX EG365P-VE (FCA) 350W PSU 73.00 )?

I know it is in the FCA vs the FC, but what does this matter?

If you don't mind

Thanks in advance again,
This forum kicks ass

JT

Jetoney, I deleted one of yer double posters!!

The case I'm getting is just a case for now, I plan on getting a 3RU system and actually use my rack for something useful! lol!
I also plan on getting a 2RU drive bay swap system and putting that in the rack too. Then I'll put a piece of plexiglass on the front..like a door type thang to deflect noise out towards the back and on the back I'll foam the area a bit to kill the high end reflections off of the wall.
I too awai my own benchmarks with this new system that I am being a guinea pig for.
Power is very important and especially if you have many SCSI and or peripherals going at once.
I'm no electrician but I do usually look for FCA approved, I think I've seen FC as well but I dont think there's much of a difference or not.
Anyone on that one?
Opus

Well, I got the deal thru http://www.digirex.com
they have a barebones menu and I told them I saw their prices on Pricewatch of course..
So I called up this morning to double check the order and make sure it was indeed a Northwood processor...it wasnt actually..glad I checked...but for 9 dollars I upgraded it to a 1.6a!! What a bargain!!
So, I'll have a P4 1.6a which will be overclocked to 2.x Ghz!!
Wooohoo!! I cant friggen wait...if you guys dont hear from me ever again once I get this new system dont be surprised..I probably blew up from over excitement!! lol!
Opus :p

Originally posted by jetoney:
sorry for the double post
One last question:
jscott,
What is the diff between the power supply you mentioned(ENERMAX EG365P-VE( FC ) 350W Power supply) and this one that someone else suggested(ENERMAX EG365P-VE (FCA) 350W PSU 73.00 )?

FC Function: (Fan Control) Allows fan to be turned on/off by the motherboard (sleep mode). FM function - (Fan monitoring) - power supply fan can be monitored by motherboard if properly attached. "Noiseless, and high MTBF"

FCA function (Fan On/ Off Controlled by M/B & Adjustable), "sleeping mode" power supply. FM (Fan Speed Monitoring) Function. 9cm Thermal Control Fan. “Low Noise. High MTBF”.

I also want to point out there are some really good alternatives to the ASUS board:

[list]

Originally posted by jetoney:
I was a day away from an 1800xp upgrade with the
Gigabyte Ga-7dx(?)

If you all are interested I finally found someone who compared Waves plugin counts between a P4 (not Northwood) and Athlon XP

Plugin....2GHz P4.....1.53GHz AthlonXP
.............. w/RDRAM.....(1800+) w/PC133

C4................21................30
RCL.............30................50
C1................43................65
RenVerb......14................17
TrueVerb.....13................32
Q10 ...........103..............112
REQ4.........164..............120

All tests were run on identically configured systems with WinXP and Sound
Forge 5.0. Bottom line... the P4 kicks butt running RenEQs, but falls
behind
in every other category. Optimizations are for SSE, 3dNow, and SSE2.

(courtesy of Scott Reams from the LUG)

Sorry for the formatting - probably could have used UBB formatting but I was lazy.

I thought about waiting for a P4 Northwood, but the prices for a 2.0G were much more than an Athlon 1900 (a couple of weeks ago at least), and plugin counts are quite important for larger mixes (for me at least). I went for the Athlon 1900 and Gigabyte GA7-DXR+ (thinking I might use IDE raid in the future, and from reviews that the GA7-DXR is a faster board than the GA7-DX). Anyway, plugin counts are generally higher on Athlons at comparable speeds (i.e. XP 1900 vs. P4 2.0G), but whichever you prefer will work well, just with different pros/cons.

So far all is working well, but for this board/bios I did have to change APIC to PIC in bios, and load Windows XP Pro with ACPI in order to run an RME Digiface with Logic (and UAD-1) without dropouts (i.e. interrupts for sound cards were forced to APIC numbers, and shared physical IRQ 9). It will also work if you install WinXP, then revert to Standard PC. This is also a consideration with motherboards, in addition to PCI bus handling, etc. There are no single cpu mb's for Athlons that have AMD north AND south bridges (AMD boards have a VIA 686B southbridge, but so far this hasn't been a problem for anyone with these Gigabyte boards).

Regards,
Dedric

some good readin there Dedric! Tanks!! :D

Originally posted by Opus2000:
some good readin there Dedric! Tanks!! :D

:D - it would be bad music. hehehe.

No, I'm actually talking about having the option (i.e. enough "overhead") to run a quality 4-band EQ on most tracks (even if for nothing more than slight LP/HP cuts), good comps on others, as well as some FX and VSTi's.

I also don't think this test took into account cpu overhead for streaming a lot of tracks/audio files as it was done in SF5 (probably with one stereo track and each set of plugins chained together).

Now you add the temptation to use a few Waves C4s instead of regular comps, or some of Waves' new mastering plugins (which sound very good) and bam! (sorry Emeril) no more cpu power for that VSTi, automation, etc.

(BTW, those numbers were instances of each type of plugin, alone, with none of the others)

Regards,
Dedric

:( gee.....damn.........impatience is ruling my life........aaahahhhhhhh

seems i should of hung around here for a few more weeks to see this!

i'm an official amd man...ok, suck it up...deep breath :roll:

Opus2000 & Tommy P.

Its not that I'm taking sides here on the issue of AMD vs Intel, but you might find this interesting:

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.digitaln…"]Nforce !! Yes!!![/]="http://www.digitaln…"]Nforce !! Yes!!![/]

Seems like better things are emurging everyday!

ok...I'm not sold just yet..first of all he's running on an MSI board which Steinberg and I belive RME as well both dont like those boards at all..
The tests were all done on Win98...what about ME and 2K? Thats a real benchmark there..more people are using Win2k than 98!
N force is still too new for the chipset scene and Sis seems to have made good on themselves after years of shitty graphics issues.
I'm definatley happy that I made the move I did..
Peace
Opus

Opus ,
Two things:
It looks as though those tests were done on SE and XP(look right under the 98 posts)
and
2)Did you get your new gear and please, please, post those results when you get it up and running. I am chomping at the bit to make a move.

Thanks for all your bleeding edge work!!

JT

This is turning into a real nail biter!

Thanks jscott, for the link.

They(Nvidia) were late to the party with thier Nforce launch. This is because they were beat to the price/performance punch early on. Improved memory performance? Yes. But they make you pay for a GeforceMX (its on-die).

Anyhow, notice that they were comparing a VIA based KT266 board to the Nforce.

If someone threw me a Via board and a skateboard, which one do ya think I'd catch? :D

Jetoney
I guess I missed the part about testing with XP!!
Doh!!
No, no new system yet!! I need to call them to see whats up with it..they said like 5-6 days to process it, ordered it on the 15th so it should be on it's way(hopefully!!)
Oh, I will post my results..dont you worry your little heart out too much!!
Tommy..well, if someone was throwing me free stuff I would catch as much as possible..free is free..dont care what it is!!! Ha ha ha ha!!
Opus :(
I want it now dammit!! :eek:
sniff...sniff

Hey, Opus - Old tech support joke -

"You want it bad? You'll GET it bad - The worse you want it, the worse you'll get it.."

Waitin's a bitch, ain't it? In my case, I think the only way anybody could rip me off without losing a leg or two, would be to back in with a big UPS truck and just load up - My 2 Dobermans know they would be in deep doodoo if they EVER made a UPS driver cry; they see how freakin' over-joyed I get when that big, beautiful (I used to HATE brown) truck rolls in the driveway... Steve

Well I just ordered a P4 1.6a and P4S333.( I sold one of my older Celeron 800 boxes this morning)

Gateway Accessory Store Link

$50.00 off $199.00 purchase coupon code : BA686
Free shipping and no tax.

$158.95 P4 1.6a
$119.95 P4S333
-------
$278.90 - 50 discount = 228.90 shipped.

Sweet deals there. They also have the Maxtor quiet drives FDB(fluid dynamic bearing motors) for $103.95 LINK

Two of them would be $207.90 - 50 = 157.90 shipped for 80Gigs of ATA133 quieting goodness for your DAW !

Free shipping on those heavy monitors too.
Samsung 19" 955DF flat crt $243.95 - 50 = 193.95
Two 17" 753DF flat crt shipped for $265.90
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I'm not seeing anything on the site about the $50 off, although I suppose I'd just use that code you have so graciously donated. Any limit to number of orders? (with free shipping, you gotta wonder how easy it would be to build the entire computer in increments of $200) :)

Yep, thats it Jon, just use the coupon code during the checkout process, you'll see a place to add it. The free shipping is great,and for me not having to pay $8.25 tax for every hundred I spend, is also a nice break. The P4 1.6a shows out of stock, but I ordered it thinking it would be backordred and it was in stock at the checkout, I also recieved a confirmation e-mail.

The coupon is a one time use only, but there's always someone, somewhere finding a way around things like that if you get my drift. :D

Edit: LOL' Where's the gremlin that rolls its eyes and whistles at the same time?

Well, I can't help it if I want a 21" monitor, and my wife didn't tell me _she_ wanted a P4...

Originally posted by Tommy P.:

The coupon is a one time use only, but there's always someone, somewhere finding a way around things like that if you get my drift. :D

Edit: LOL' Where's the gremlin that rolls its eyes and whistles at the same time?

Ok....I said Fuck You to the original place that I ordered my system from since they kept delaying the shipping...found out that they didnt even have the boards in stock...friggen liars!! ARRRGGHH
So I place an order with a company 35 minutes from me and I'm going to pick the system up today
Got a black aluminum 4RU Rackmount system with the Asus P4S333 and the P4 1.6a processor!!!!
I will be building it tonight and will post results tomorrow!!!!!!!!!
YEEEHAW!!!
Opus

My P4S333 came yesterday, and Gateway has my P4 1.6a on backorder. I'm tempted to cancel, and order from newegg.

4U black rack mount case. Oh yeah!

Opus, who's rack mount case? Please post a link!

http://direct.mwave.com/mwave/doc2/a14230.html

Here's the picture of the rackmount case...I got it thru a company called Mwave.com
great prices on stuff..plus it's local for me so I can just drive down there and grab what I need! They always have everything in stock too!!
Opus