17 to 22s won't need much help with computers and softwares.
I guess something like 'Foundation of audio recording' maybe of interest to them ;
A course where you present the all aspect of the recording chain. Room, instrument, mic and placement, preamps and converters. Add some info on phase Relationship, intro on mixing and mastering and you got a great program don't you think ?

I think thats a good idea Donny...I think with the way audio is more accessible to the masses in the digital age, and considering those that usually take recording up as a hobby are those who generally play music and want to capture what they create. Given your time in the game, as a musician, as a studio owner and someone who has consulted to the home studio owner in the past I think its something that you would be very suited to and this would be right up your alley.

My advice would be to approach it from the perspective of those who would take up such a course....

- What would they want / need to take away from it to give them the know-how to be able to capture their own music?

So here are a few things I think may be relevant

1 - DAW - The "what is" & "how to". A basic understanding of how to navigate your way through a DAW, basic use of the features to record basic tracks.

2 - Interface - again the "what is & "how to"...how this connects to your pc / DAW and the basic understanding and functions of use.

3 - Microphones & Cables / Pre Amps - We get many questions here from newcomers to recording and I think knowing things like mic types, mic technique & placement would be a good start.

4 - Acoustic treatment - The basics & why this is important.

5- Capturing / Recording - How to capture your recording...from the DAW perpective, gain staging, using click tracks, punching in, etc

6- Mixing - Setting mix levels, how to on plug-ins and what plug-in to use for what purpose (EQ, comp. etc), LUFS levels in mixing

7 - Mastering - A basic overview of what it is, LUFS levels in mastering

I'm sure there would be many other things you could add...but IMO that would be a good start. I know that if I was starting out and could be shown all this in a week I would come away with a basic understanding of what is needed to capture my own performances. (y)

pcrecord, post: 441276, member: 46460 wrote: 17 to 22s won't need much help with computers and softwares.

I agree with Marco there...anything to do with technology and kids at that age in most cases have grown up with it and anything you show them you really only have to show them once...
- in a short while they would be showing you a thing or two.;)

DonnyThompson, post: 441275, member: 46114 wrote: I was hoping that my pals here on RO might be able to offer some advice on this

On top of what others suggest, you can surely use RO (free of charge) in what ever way to help promote this. Feel free to ask me, glad to help if I can.

DonnyThompson, post: 441275, member: 46114 wrote: My thoughts are to cover mic types and mic placement techniques, gain structure, connections/cabling, preamps and interfaces, and a basic overview of the tools used in a DAW.

cool

DonnyThompson, post: 441275, member: 46114 wrote: I'm thinking about using a very basic and easy to understand DAW program - perhaps something like Reason or S1 ?

Cool.

As Marco pointed out, that age group certainly won't need much help with the computing part but will most certainly need help with everything recording related.
Interfacing seems to be a big void when it comes to multitracking and stability.

DAW's used will be the free ones including Ableton , Reaper, Cubase, Sonar. I'm with you on Sam :confused:. That is way too advanced for novice. Pro Tools as well (it is the industry standard) but to my understanding, PT has such bad karma in the new arena, I don't even think I would focus on any DAW in particular.
I would focus on skills that comes from the gifted (what money can't buy) which is experience in microphones, composing, creating real music and how you fit this into the modern world today, how you go about it from one track at a time to old school performance where a few mics and a real band sounds. How to faux it all together as well. You have a lot to offer.

hope some of these idea's help.

I agree w all of the above. Reaper is probably the best daw imho for that or studio one since they are cross platform and freely available.

I also wouldn't underestimate the value of Vst. Especially since the students are into composition midi ochestration is inevitable. For instance avatar used BFD, and mission impossible used VSL (for the mockup) then they re recorded the live orchestra. Sam (while I agree is beyond the scope of a week course) transforms midi directly into standard notation, which could be incredibly useful.

I think your experience in song structure and composition shouldn't be overlooked D. I think besides the technical aspects of mic placement, and acoustic treatment, songwriting is just as weak a link in an average recording. This is where the experience of a good producer comes in. As a Berkeley grad, it's something my boss always focused on when training is, and during sessions. He's re edited song structure, added artificial harmonies Ect Ect in people's projects.

When to use a condenser vs dynamic mic could
Be a good topic. Especially since so many entry level mics tote the 'condenser' banner as if it's superior not just a type.

Aux/busses seem to be a weak point in a lot of people's technique. Particularly people who can into it digital from the start. I find it difficult to explain to people (routing) becuase there is no point of refernce like 'you know how you plug..' It's like um no..... Lol.

Compression/limiting/mastering is also a good area. And not just 'don't do it' but actually showing people how to enhance a mix with those tools like an experienced guy would.

Like the others said the computer stuff the kids will know pretty well.

I think you'd be good at it D. Best of luck!

That's an interesting idea Donny. The Chautauqua area is great! We used to play the big rock club across the lake a lot back in the early 90's. It was a flourishing music scene back then, and although I don't get up that way very often anymore, I believe it is still thriving. As you point out, they're not pigeon-holed into any one genre and near enough to some good-sized cities ( Toronto, Buffalo, Erie, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Rochester, Jamestown etc.) to attract all kinds of talent and an audience.

I'm sure there would be a percentage of the students who wouldn't know which end was up on a DAW, and those that do, would probably ALL benefit from a session on mic-placement and gain-structure.

Good idea, and good notes so far. (don't bother trying to teach them how to roll up a cable, you won't have that much time)

I like everything suggested so far - Sean's list is pretty good - as I go forward with learning stuff I continue to look at those big topic points. I especially like the idea of on-the-fly acoustic treatment. Think of where these kids might be recording (hotel room, apartment, dorm, exterior...) give them scenarios on how to quickly prep the space for a variety of recording situations - real world imaginative solutions they can adopt quickly.

Young creative types work fast - open a track and start dropping mics/cutting tracks --- things get pretty cluttered and at some point as projects come together you end up having to go back and clean up/make sense of the mess - and mistakes can happen and work can get lost etc... -- so something that addressed good work processes and workflow that also shows the advantage of good workflow & organization - setup & template strategies that are smart and looking ahead as far as workflow goes - anticipate folders and groupings and mix buses and routing --- even stuff that covers data management (might sound simple but I can't tell you how many times I've heard kids talk about losing 2 years worth of projects/schoolwork/data after a laptop died or got stolen -- even major digital media artists).

Great advice from everyone. Thanks guys, I knew you'd all come up with great suggestions.

Initially I thought I'd skip VSTi's, but after what Kyle mentioned, and after further thought, there may be s few students who rely on sampled pianos - the dorm rooms are typical college dorm sizes - so it's not like they'll have an actual piano in there to work with. Once I cover how to set up midi tracks for internal sample triggering, they can then translate that process to any soft synth that they want, should they desire to use sampled strings, brass, drums, etc.

I'd still like to keep the main focus on mics and real instrument recording though, as most of these students play actual instruments.

I think the course would be fun; and I'd like to make RO available to them as a resource.
( thanks, Chris audiokid ).

As to the DAW program to use, I think it's down to Reason or S1, unless someone else has another suggestion. Pat, Samp, and even Sonar are too complex for the beginner, I think. I don't want to bog them down on a DAW program that's so complex tbat it takes half the week for them to figure out how to record a track, or to cover even the most basic of DAW tasks.
Certainly I'll cover basic processing, such as EQ and GR; what they do, how they work, and when to use them... But again, I don't want to get too complex with them to the point where their eyes are glazing over. Everyone here knows that I could spend a week on EQ alone. The course isn't aimed at those who want to be engineers, it's designed on helping them to record their own material, with the focus on capturing great performances and making music that has decent fidelity. I doubt very highly that any of them are using Millennia preamps with Neumann mics. Most - if not all - are probably using the typical entry level gear. I want them to be able to get the best out of what they have, or, to be able to get started out without flushing their pell grant money dry.

;)
-d.

S1 Artist is free to download...full functioning with native plug-ins. Its pretty easy to navigate your way around for a beginner.

A friend of mine suggested that I may want to add my own accomplishments in the course description as a way to "legitimize" myself... Awards, certifications, producers and engineers I've worked with, etc, ...at which point I'm pretty sure I actually rolled my eyes and winced at the same time. I HATE the idea of doing this, or even hinting at it. If anything, I think I'd much rather mention that I'm a long standing member and regular contributor to RO, teaching alongside some of the finest and most knowledgeable audio experts and colleagues I've ever had the pleasure to know... I'm
more proud of this than any of my other accomplishments.
What say you?

It sounds a great idea, Donny! I'm sorry I don't have a lot to add at this stage beyond what my esteemed colleagues have already suggested.

I can, however, mention a similar sort of course I put together several years ago. In that one, I took the first session to deal with the differences between live recording and studio recording. I then went on to handle the live aspects and got a studio engineer pal of mine to take on the studio aspects. I could see some light-bulbs turning on in the heads of the musos who attended when they were presented with the live/studio categorisation that they all had experienced but never thought about in detail.

If it would help, I for one would be pleased to look over any material that you would like to try out before the course.

That would be great Bos. :)
I'll post the course outline for submission to the committee before I send it in, just to have it proof read by my pals here.
Getting the course accepted as part of the summer 2017 curriculum is the first hurdle, and that needs to happen before October 1, which is now only a few weeks away (yikes!).
If it's accepted, I'll have all winter to fine tune the syllabus.
:)

DonnyThompson, post: 441303, member: 46114 wrote: A friend of mine suggested that I may want to add my own accomplishments in the course description as a way to "legitimize" myself... Awards, certifications, producers and engineers I've worked with, etc, ...at which point I'm pretty sure I actually rolled my eyes and winced at the same time. I HATE the idea of doing this, or even hinting at it. If anything, I think I'd much rather mention that I'm a long standing member and regular contributor to RO, teaching alongside some of the finest and most knowledgeable audio experts and colleagues I've ever had the pleasure to know... I'm
more proud of this than any of my other accomplishments.
What say you?

I for one do not think you have to legitimise yourself Donny...you have the runs on the board with what you have accomplished in your time thus far in the field.

From the perspective of that of an educator, having a little credibility doesn't hurt though...maybe when you do your intro on who you are and what you have done in your time to bring you to where you are, sharing a few achievements can show your students that you know what you are talking about and your'e not just some guy who has walked in off the street.

I for one always had a great respect for those who taught me a thing or two, knowing that the knowledge they shared came with a sense of authority because of what they had done or achieved along the way before sharing that knowledge through their own experience.

When I was first enrolled in audio engineering 25 years ago, the guy who ran our course was an aging hippie from the U.K. who really knew his stuff.
It wasn't until later towards the end of the course that he invited us to a BBQ at his home, where his wife had let it slip during the course of the night that at one time he had worked with Pink Floyd. Sure enough, his wife went away then out came out a few minutes later with an old photo album and there he was in the studio with the band in his younger days, as an assistant to Alan Parsons.
As a huge Pink Floyd fan I was absolutely blown away, speechless in fact, and although he was quite a humble fellow, over a few more drinks and a little prodding he shared many stories of his time in audio, his experiences and his achievements along the way, but if it wasn't for his wife we may never have known that little fact of who we were learning from, and who he learned the craft from.

I often think of him even now 25 years on and the impact having him as an educator had on me...even if I hadn't found out about that little well kept secret of his.
Either way I couldn't have had a higher respect for him and the things he taught me. He had a huge impact on my love for the craft unto this day and I often think of him with a smile.

IMO it doesn't hurt to share what you have achieved...even if you are a humble fellow like yourself Donny. ;)

DonnyThompson, post: 441303, member: 46114 wrote: A friend of mine suggested that I may want to add my own accomplishments in the course description as a way to "legitimize" myself...

It depends if you have to sell the course to a comity... It's sad to have to justify ourself but it is sometime the only way to gain thrust from the school and/or students.
I bet I wouldn't want a teacher who drives a snow truck without knowing he had some experience in the past ;)

Yesterday I got a young drummer (in his 20s) who came in to the studio because he needs to strait up his game about playing on time and with a click.
In an hour, he kept bragging me about what he accomplished the last 10years, how good he was and gave excuses for the last recording session we had with his band. I had no choice to be blunt and tell him : 'Stop the excuses, they don't fix anything. You failed, it's time to get better''
It was a very hard hour because while he was always fishing to hear he me say he is good, I had to make him realise he's not tight and that going faster on fills and not be on the pocket is some basic stuff you shouldn't exhibit unless your a newb.
At some point I decided to let him hear a few recording I made and his reaction was to think I wanted to show off....
I was very happy to have my old TD9 module ready to make him play with the scope, so he could see when he is off. Thank god I had this proof he could see by himself because I was at a feather of being called a bullshitter which I honestly don't think I am...

The line is very thin between recognition and arrogance.

pcrecord, post: 441313, member: 46460 wrote: The line is very thin between recognition and arrogance.

I agree with you there Marco...but I feel that comes down with the type of person that delivers the message and how that message is delivered.

Sometimes, like in the case you described you just have to be blunt...even if that goes against the type of person you are. Sometimes its the only way to get the message across because of the attitude of the person who needs to hear it.
Maybe the guy you had in felt a little intimidated by your ability and experience by the sound of what you described so felt like he had to prove something to you regarding his ability.

pcrecord, post: 441313, member: 46460 wrote: It was a very hard hour because while he was always fishing to hear he me say he is good

Sounds like he was looking for that reassurance there...maybe he felt insecure about his ability, not uncommon when you are faced with a situation where you have to perform in front of someone whose ability outshines your own...hence the bragging about what he had accomplished in the last 10 years, how good he was, and the excuses for the last session.
I'm sure the way you handled it was in his best interest to get the best out of him...thats what he is there for, right?...so thats your job in that situation.
Sometimes a dose of reality is the best thing for you under the circumstance, it makes you take stock and lift your game a little, making you dig deep and gets you out of your comfort zone.

In Donnys' case, anyone who knows Donny from here on RO knows the type of person he is. He doesn't like to blow his own trumpet.

Donny is the type of guy that if not for the Pacific Ocean seperating us, I'd love to just hang out with him to jam and rack his brain...we have joked about this on the odd occasion.
And that also goes for a lot of the guys who hang here on RO...if not for the fact I'm on the other side of the globe I'd be on your doorsteps in a heartbeat.

I think sharing a little about himself and his accomplishments in the craft will do wonders with his students...it may give them a sense of just what can be achieved if you devote your life to the craft and work hard at it. I'm sure that from the perspective of those taking the course it is reassuring that they are learning from someone who knows the ropes and has a better perspective of the industry than most from knowledge gained from first-hand experience. Personally I'd love to take the course just to be able to hang out with him for the week...I'm sure I'd learn a thing or two and look at things from another perspective along the way. And being the type of guy he is, I don't feel that those taking the course would receive that as being arrogant at all.

Not blowing smoke up your arse Donny...but thats' what I think. ;)

Sean G, post: 441314, member: 49362 wrote: And that also goes for a lot of the guys who hang here on RO...if not for the fact I'm on the other side of the globe I'd be on your doorsteps in a heartbeat.

+1 :love:

DonnyThompson, post: 441303, member: 46114 wrote: A friend of mine suggested that I may want to add my own accomplishments in the course description as a way to "legitimize" myself... Awards, certifications, producers and engineers I've worked with, etc, ...at which point I'm pretty sure I actually rolled my eyes and winced at the same time. I HATE the idea of doing this, or even hinting at it. If anything, I think I'd much rather mention that I'm a long standing member and regular contributor to RO, teaching alongside some of the finest and most knowledgeable audio experts and colleagues I've ever had the pleasure to know... I'm
more proud of this than any of my other accomplishments.
What say you?

Remember everyone is an 'engineer' or 'producer' these days. We know this, an mbox and MacBook and all the sudden they've got themselves a title.

Basically I think you almost have to just say some of your accomplishments upfront to seperate you from the pack. Your obviously not gonna name every single one right away or say it with a boastful/long winded nature, but if you cherry pick a few that should be just fine. You've got one chance to make a first impression. It's always cool to toss them in when there relevant along the way as well.

I was personally impressed when you said you did the billy blanks tae bo commercials. Lol it came up one time. I just thought it was cool cuz it was something I'd actually heard and seen. Lol gotta love those late night red eye commercials!!

I've not been lucky enough to had any of my work broadcast or released by a major label, but I always try to drop a few relevant things pretty early on when meeting a new client. I just mention it casually and move on. I'm not sure people give a shit or not, but it doesn't hurt I'm sure, and I certainly don't dwell on it, I just mention a couple names or projects.

Show those kids what can be done w a 57 and some talent D! Go get em.

pcrecord, post: 441313, member: 46460 wrote: It depends if you have to sell the course to a comity... It's sad to have to justify ourself but it is sometime the only way to gain thrust from the school and/or students.
I bet I wouldn't want a teacher who drives a snow truck without knowing he had some experience in the past ;)

Yesterday I got a young drummer (in his 20s) who came in to the studio because he needs to strait up his game about playing on time and with a click.
In an hour, he kept bragging me about what he accomplished the last 10years, how good he was and gave excuses for the last recording session we had with his band. I had no choice to be blunt and tell him : 'Stop the excuses, they don't fix anything. You failed, it's time to get better''
It was a very hard hour because while he was always fishing to hear he me say he is good, I had to make him realize he's not tight and that going faster on fills and not be on the pocket is some basic stuff you shouldn't exhibit unless your a newb.
At some point I decided to let him hear a few recording I made and his reaction was to think I wanted to show off....
I was very happy to have my old TD9 module ready to make him play with the scope, so he could see when he is off. Thank god I had this proof he could see by himself because I was at a feather of being called a bullshitter which I honestly don't think I am...

The line is very thin between recognition and arrogance.

The truly good artists let the music do the talking. I've found the most talented people I know personally and just in general either think they suck, or don't comment on they're skills at all.

I worked w/for a super talented person who just absolutely turned people off with his arrogant stage presence. It came off fake. Nobody likes insecure front man but he took the old 'act like a star till you are one' advice too literally lol.

Sooo many people make comments about it to me. The guy just wouldn't accept these comments as truth. It's a shame because this guy was actually one heck of an axe slinger, but his attitude turned people off. And that's what his reputation has been for years. It's a shame.

Also (@Brien Holcombe )... Should I also devote a day on how to temporarily acoustically treat their recording spaces ?)

I would stick with the music and what you guys have to do to capture it. That is difficult in and of itself.

Maybe a brief example as you deliver your approach of what to expect from different surfaces...e.g. glass or curtains how one can enhance the higher frequencies and one can reduce the shine. Explain how that might affect the recording mix settings...etc.

Be aware of your surroundings.

Good luck

Brien Holcombe, post: 441337, member: 48996 wrote: Maybe a brief example as you deliver your approach of what to expect from different surfaces...e.g. glass or curtains how one can enhance the higher frequencies and one can reduce the shine. Explain how that might affect the recording mix settings...etc.

Be aware of your surroundings.

Thanks Brien. Sage advice.. I was leaning towards that approach anyway; first off, I'm nowhere near qualified to teach a seminar on acoustics; and second, even if I was, it would take a lot longer than a week to teach it. ;)

Thanks so much for all your suggestions and thoughts, gang... Your posts really did help.
Truthfully, I expected no less from this roving band of rogue outlaws. LOL

I'll post a final course description for final review when I finish it up.

;)

DonnyThompson, post: 441275, member: 46114 wrote: Hi gang.
This past summer, I had the opportunity to visit The Chautauqua Institute in New York. I was there a few times, once for a weekend, and then once for a whole week. The Institute is a vibrant community of artists; it's kinda like a sort of Disneyland for the Liberal Arts. Music is everywhere, and of all styles. Many are students from abroad who are honing their craft; there are classes and seminars, along with a fantastic lecture series and concert schedule, the access to any of which is included with your weekend or week long paid pass. There is a gorgeous amphitheater in the middle of the enclave, where lectures and concerts are given. In any given week, you can attend lectures featuring historical figures, watch a choral concert from some of the finest groups in the world, listen to solo artists play and discuss music, or watch a full-blown concert from some amazing acts. The full week I was there, Wynton Marsellas was there with the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra; and two nights later, I saw Mary Chapin Carpenter performing with her band as well.

It occurred to me that many of the students there probably had their own computers in their rooms; and that some of those students were likely trying to record their own music... So I thought that perhaps offering a week long class in basic recording instruction might be something I could do for the 2017 summer season.
I'm trying to figure out how to submit this course idea/outline to the course committee there; and I was hoping that my pals here on RO might be able to offer some advice on this.

The thing I have to remember is that the people who may be interested in attending this course are musicians FIRST. These are formally trained kids; studying classical, jazz, world/ethnic and even contemporary stuff. So, I have to keep this course aimed with that in mind... I'm not teaching future engineers here, or even EM Composers... I would be teaching musicians on how to best capture their performances on their real instruments to a basic DAW, and how to get best results out of what they have. The general age range of the students is 17-22.
My thoughts are to cover mic types and mic placement techniques, gain structure, connections/cabling, preamps and interfaces, and a basic overview of the tools used in a DAW.
I'm thinking about using a very basic and easy to understand DAW program - perhaps something like Reason or S1 ? ( I think if I tried to use Samp or PT their heads would pop off, LOL)
These students would be focusing on recording acoustic instruments, I don't see much need ( or interest on their part) to cover VSTi's. That being said, am I being too quick to exclude VSTi's?

Also (@Brien Holcombe )... Should I also devote a day on how to temporarily acoustically treat their recording spaces ?)

I need to submit the course outline ( not a full syllabus yet) to the committee by October 1.
Does anyone have ANY suggestions on what to focus on with this outline... Or even something I may have missed in regard to something I need to teach in the course? PLEASE. speak up. I wanna hear all ideas!

ANY suggestions would be greatly appreciated. ;)

Tagging audiokid @Sean G , Kurt Foster , Boswell , dvdhawk , kmetal , pcrecord , Davedog , paulears , @Brien Holcombe , @Chris Perra , DogsoverLava (if you're not tagged please don't let that stop you from contributing... I want to hear from everyone!! I just happened to tag the members who popped into my head as being the most active here on RO. ;)
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
-Donny.

It seems like a great idea. If I was in that area, I would sign up, in a heart beat. That being the case, you can think of me as one of your markets, I'm just much, much, older lol. Hell, if it's in the summer, I might just travel and stay.

I personally don't find PT to be that hard of a daw to use. I find it to be hard to understand. It's more complicated than GB. But I have heard many people who feel like they don't get the work flow, so, perhaps your idea to use a simple daw is better. I think maybe I saw someone mention this, but if not, if you are teaching a class, cross platform would be necessary.

You asked this to @Brien Holcombe but I will chime in. I think you should cover room treatment in some form or another. Reflections, cabin gain, resonance/deadening, monitor placement etc. Even 1/2 hour or something, if nothing else, just to stress it's importance. Give a simple explanation about how it works, the typical problems that arise etc. then follow it with "This is a simple explanation, to understand it fully, we need a separate 1 week class (probably more)." Imo, this particular subject is something that most people will never fully grasp unless they get their hands dirty with it, i.e. building a space themselves, finding and killing resonance issues etc. I feel like many people don't understand what goes into it, or how important it is.

Here is an idea. I think often times, with any topic, there are things people talk about, but don't really understand. Things like the lingo...they will know what you mean, through context and practice, but don't truly understand the principles or mechanics, or why they are even doing it. And I think that happens a lot in this field with busses, inserts, sends, etc. Stuff that you guys consider very simple because you have been doing it so long. Just simple explanations for stuff like that you can think of. e.g. The first time someone told me just to think of "busses" as "cables" you are using to connect stuff, it removed all the mystery for me. With the knowledge I already of how busses are used in context, plus that simplification, I now felt like I understood it. If you could think of, and run through a bunch of those quickly, I think the students would appreciate it.

I think what I mean is, maybe spend a few minutes simplifying the lingo for people. I don't mean acronyms, people should know what a daw is at this point, if not, they can find out easily enough. But to have an experienced engineer there, to simplify channel strips, side chaining, busing, inserts, wet and dry tracks, compression...to have a pro dumb that down for me, so that there was no more mystery, that would be amazing. Is there a post here that does that? I could use it!

DonnyThompson, post: 441303, member: 46114 wrote: A friend of mine suggested that I may want to add my own accomplishments in the course description as a way to "legitimize" myself... Awards, certifications, producers and engineers I've worked with, etc,

I get what you mean, you are a humble guy. "Bragging" doesn't come natural to you...but if I may put a different spin on it.

Legitimize is the wrong word. It starts this whole idea off with the wrong sentiment; that I don't want to hear/know about what you have done. That's false. It isn't legitimizing, the idea is more like, "professionally introduce" yourself. It's your resume. You are putting yourself out there for a job...it just so happens that it's temporary, and people report to you.

They are volunteering for someone to educate them. People take pride in who they were taught by, it's recorded in some of the earliest texts. Examples of it are in all the major religious texts. Even now, if people went to Yale or Princeton, they are proud of it. It's the same phenomenon. You aren't legitimizing yourself, you are giving your students a sense of self-esteem/identity.

If I were in that area, I would sign up regardless. But that assumes everyone is like me, in which case, we are all screwed. But if your compensation is affected by class size, the higher the enrollment, the better. For many of the fence-sitters, seeing impressive credentials will motivate them to take the class. For example, and I don't know what the %'s are for something like this but you will get the point, I'm transferring marketing theory. If you have 20 people enroll, that means you had 5 that seriously thought about enrolling, but didn't. You had another 5 that checked it out, but lost interest. With these two groups, there was "contact" so to speak, but no sale. It also means that you had 5 people that didn't enroll, because there was no contact at all. That's 15 people that didn't enroll, out of 20 that did. That's a completely imaginary 75%!

So 3 groups here: the people you almost had, the people you could have had, the people you never got a chance to have.

The quickest, easiest way I can think of to sure up, and find people in those groups mentioned, would be to post your credentials. I've spoken to you a bit, even the amount of time you have in the biz is impressive. Some people will find and enroll in the class simply bc of who you are. They may not have been interested enough otherwise, but the fact that I would be learning from the guy who did _______ may change their mind. I apologize for the crude and factually inaccurate explanation lol, but that's where your buddy may be correct.

If your compensation isn't affected, who cares. But your enrollment probably has some sort of tangible impact on your job as a whole, whether it's direct compensation, or being invited back etc.

I understand how you feel though. You feel like you are bragging, or pimping yourself out. Well your reputation I mean, you can pimp your body out too it's your life.

Assuming you don't want to post your achievements for the reasons I just mentioned, is it really bragging to list what you have done to attract people to a college class? I mean, that's kind of just part of the job, isn't it? People like to know who they are learning from. No one here is going to judge you for it. And I, as a student, would be really interested in knowing who you are and what you have done. I'm really interested and I'm not a student.

I think "legitimize" hijacks the true concept; a tasteful introduction to the instructor. And it sounds like maybe you are assuming that people don't want to know about you or what you have done. I assure you, we do. Especially a student, they would love to know.

So, if the $ is important to you, I think you should present your bio, as truthfully, and as humbly as you need to sleep at night.

Brother Junk, post: 441345, member: 49944 wrote:
You asked this to @Brien Holcombe but I will chime in. I think you should cover room treatment in some form or another. Reflections, cabin gain, resonance/deadening, monitor placement etc. Even 1/2 hour or something, if nothing else, just to stress it's importance. Give a simple explanation about how it works, the typical problems that arise etc. then follow it with "This is a simple explanation, to understand it fully, we need a separate 1 week class (probably more)." Imo, this particular subject is something that most people will never fully grasp unless they get their hands dirty with it, i.e. building a space themselves, finding and killing resonance issues etc. I feel like many people don't understand what goes into it, or how important it is.

And that would completely derail the path or scope of the project. These young minds already know how to play at a high level. To dilute the importance of procedure in capturing the sound of an instrument...an instrument....can not be over stated.

The equipment and the electronics involved can stifle creativity if employed incorrectly. This is an area that needs the most attention.

The acoustics will only put the listener in the weeds due to the many variables of user rooms and situations.

Now Donny knows what it is he is trying to achieve so you and I have to trust that if he has this option or offer, he will make the best decisions in respect to what is emphasized and what is minimized.

While I appreciate your opinion. ..it is not a decision we get to make so any disagreement in what you or I or anyone wants more prominante...doesn't really matter.

thanks, guys.

I think I will probably touch on how the acoustics of a room is important, and that it does matter, with both recording and mixing, but... I doubt I'll go into it much deeper. I may instead refer them to study the subject on their own, by first vetting a few links on the subject myself beforehand, to find those that aren't filled with myths, and then giving them those links, encouraging them to learn more about it and its importance to the process.

Beyond basic reflection treatment methods, I'm not qualified to teach more than the most basic of treatment methods, anyway. I may mention how hanging heavy blankets or drapes will attenuate some high frequency reflections, or how adding some bass trapping will help to tighten up the low end, but to get into anything deeper than this is, I think, both beyond my scope, and too deep a subject for these kids who just want to record their performances. Remember, these students are musicians first, and the course is aimed more at that than it is deep engineering or acoustic processes.
If I were teaching an actual audio engineering course, I could spend just as much time doing that as I could with acoustics ( if I was educated enough to teach acoustics, which I'm not). I have a week in which to fill their heads with knowledge that they can immediately apply to their own situations, so I have to put the focus on what I feel will benefit them the most in that short amount of time. ;)

I appreciate everyone's input here, more than you may realize, I think. I've yet to determine how to promote myself without it coming off as bragging; I'm still working on that part. ;)

Donny..Donny...Donny!!!

DonnyThompson, post: 441365, member: 46114 wrote: If I were teaching an actual audio engineering course

I was under the impression that was what you were teaching? What are you teaching? Or hoping to teach?

DonnyThompson, post: 441365, member: 46114 wrote: I've yet to determine how to promote myself without it coming off as bragging; I'm still working on that part. ;)

You're not bragging buddy...it's different around here bc these people are your peers. Around here, if you post your accomplishments, it feels like you are "spiking the football."

The people taking the class aren't going to be your peers. They want you to teach, and for them to learn. You lead, they follow. People are much more willing to follow a leader who has experience. And they would love to hear about it, I promise you.

DonnyThompson, post: 441365, member: 46114 wrote: I've yet to determine how to promote myself without it coming off as bragging

Just tell your students to do their own research D...like all good students should http://www.theohiomusicawards.com/ ;)

(y)

Sean G, post: 441371, member: 49362 wrote: Just tell your students to do their own research D...like all good students should http://www.theohiomusicawards.com/ ;)

(y)

Wow...congrats DT!

Tell them you've made a living making music, that's quite a feat in itself.

If they would like to make a living in the music business, they will be more marketable with any other legitimate skills they can add to their resume, without detracting from their primary instrument.

dvdhawk, post: 441374, member: 36047 wrote: Tell them you've made a living making music, that's quite a feat in itself.

Exactly. That's pretty much the bottom line.
To expand on what I take from Dave's point. (y)

I pretty much respect (or lets say... pay closer attention) to those who earn a living in the entertainment industry. I may not like their style, complete message, morals, but I still respect "people who are earning a living at this". That's the cue for me. So I keep an eye open for the "hooks".

A lot of people get hung up on genre's and miss the cues. They also loose the ability to listen objectively throughout their life. The public, those who don't earn a living at this are more apt to criticizes individuals over their styles. So, without getting to hung up on the cover of something, I make sure my children know the difference between the public, art in itself and the business.
Those who have earned a living at this, been on the road, hung with working artists, understand the temperaments and dreams, and that means all forms of entertainment, definitely have something positive to share. Can we teach what it takes?

Donny, you clearly know what this business is about.

Nice one dvdhawk

Brother Junk, post: 441369, member: 49944 wrote: I was under the impression that was what you were teaching? What are you teaching? Or hoping to teach?

Well, there's no doubt that I'm going to have to teach some engineering basics. Mics and mic placement, gain structure, EQ and GR.
What I'm not planning on doing is getting into the intricate features of DAW production; things like pitch correction, or restoration... Even with editing, I'm sticking to the basic commands and features that they will need to know.
My focus - or what I'd like the focus to be - is centered on capturing real performances in the best possible way with the gear that most student musicians use. I don't expect to have students who are using Neve pres, or Antelope converters, or $3000 mics. Most, if not all, are likely going to have the standard faire of the home recording musician.
While I plan on explaining ( and likely even demonstrating) the difference(s) between budget gear and pro level stuff, it's not my intention for this class to focus on that, or to be a sales pitch, or even an advocacy for premium gear.
These students are most likely going to be using entry level Focusrite, Presonus, and Behringer equipment; so I want to help them get the most out of what they already have, (or if they don't have anything, what they could afford to get without draining their grant money dry) with the focus on capturing the music they perform in the best way possible with what they are currently using.
This includes understanding of different mic types, both single and multiple mic placement techniques, gain structure, the basics of routing, basic processing, and, probably just as important, helping them to hone their listening skills. So yeah, obviously there will be some engineering involved, but it's not an actual course on AE.
If the committee accepts my premise, and basic course outline, then I have the whole winter and spring to allow the focus of the course to evolve, hopefully with the same great input and pro advice that all my colleagues here on RO have offered up so far. ;)
-d.

I think in an average class size you may get the odd 1 or 2 who will really take a shine to it Donny...and those are the students that someone with your experience could work one-on-one with, like a consultant...like having an intern without having a studio but they pay you for your time type scenario...much like you would consult to a home studio owner, but for those 1 or 2 who really want to take that step and take things to the next level post-course.

Just like a mentoring type role...something beyond that one week once you have ignited the audio spark in that 1 or 2 who want to learn more..

I dunno, just thinking out loud I suppose. ;)

DonnyThompson, post: 441380, member: 46114 wrote: If the committee accepts my premise, and basic course outline, then I have the whole winter and spring to allow the focus of the course to evolve, hopefully with the same great input and pro advice that all my colleagues here on RO have offered up so far. ;)

This is a great virtual textbook right here @ RO...we already know how it is a learning tool for us and I for one have recommended it in the past to those who I know will benefit from the resource.

What a great resource for young people starting out today in the world of audio, our RO is....and a credit to its members who contribute to make it what it is. (y)

DonnyThompson, post: 441365, member: 46114 wrote: I think I will probably touch on how the acoustics of a room is important, and that it does matter, with both recording and mixing, but... I doubt I'll go into it much deeper. I may instead refer them to study the subject on their own, by first vetting a few links on the subject myself beforehand, to find those that aren't filled with myths, and then giving them those links, encouraging them to learn more about it and its importance to the process.

Good old moving blankets. Hang em on mic stands, over bass drums Ect Ect Classic stuff. The super chunk bass trap is a very simple concept and design for that matter.

Also I linked an sos video that illustrates the same kit in different rooms. It's in s other thread I can grab the link if you need/want it. I think the thread is titled like different rooms same kit. Or something like that.

I think of the kids understand that they should listen to room / consider its effects, then that's Huge! A couple blankets and go a long way and so does corner traps.

But jut them understanding the room has an effect is huge.

Since this is on tracking, and most Acoustics stuff is focused on listening rooms, a huge discussion on Acoustics seems out of scope.

Imho simply what you'd encounter in the tracking room is plenty: ie baffles, and positioning the instrument, avoiding parelell hard boundaries (in very general) is should make a good differnce fairly quickly and easily without getting technical.

Could you point me to that link, Kyle? Thanks.

Sean G, post: 441382, member: 49362 wrote: What a great resource for young people starting out today in the world of audio, our RO is....and a credit to its members who contribute to make it what it is. (y)

Oh yeah, I have every intention of directing them here, Sean. There's no comparison between RO and GS.
RO has such a roster of highly intelligent members who are also incredibly helpful to those who seek out assistance; and we are largely a Problem Based Learning forum, which is ultimately the best way to learn.

My perception of GS is that it's little more than a place for guys to out-brag each other, and if you don't have the latest and greatest in equipment, then you're not allowed to sit at the cool kid's table. It's far to "cliquey" for my tastes.
It's sad, but I think that over there, they'd just chew those kids up up and spit them out, once they find out that they are beginners and not 30 year engineering veterans using $250k worth of gear.

DonnyThompson, post: 441411, member: 46114 wrote: Could you point me to that link, Kyle? Thanks.

I think Kyle may have been referring to this post of his from last week or so...great video that shows the effect of different rooms / environments when tracking drums for instance...

http://recording.org/threads/same-drums-different-rooms-youtube-video.59653/

DonnyThompson, post: 441412, member: 46114 wrote: My perception of GS is that it's little more than a place for guys to out-brag each other, and if you don't have the latest and greatest in equipment, then you're not allowed to sit at the cool kid's table. It's far to "cliquey" for my tastes.

I gave up on that place well before I came across RO...you hit the nail on the head there...its like the schoolyard all over again with their little cliques...thats for sure.

This popped up in my YT feed today Donny...you may find it a useful resource in some way

Hey d Sean posted the link to the video.

As far as gs goes it's got it's Place. It's good for concensus based opinions. And if there's something bad about a product it will almost undoubtedly be stated. Many times lol. Like everything else you gotta weed out the idiots.

I've found some very knowledgeable regulars in the custom PC computer forum, and the Acoustics forum has some good regulars as well.

Gs just isn't as personal and there's a lot more people through the revolving door. Much higher turnaround.

Like I say, gs is like a nightclub on a Friday night, and RO is more like a coffee shop.

DonnyThompson, post: 441412, member: 46114 wrote: My perception of GS is that it's little more than a place for guys to out-brag each other, and if you don't have the latest and greatest in equipment, then you're not allowed to sit at the cool kid's table. It's far to "cliquey" for my tastes.

Don't get me started on GS ! ;)
I got there and asked for a particular unit, instead of having honnest answer on it's quality most answers were just name droping other gear that I couldn't afford...
Love RO !!