This is a popular question. I've been in some preliminary talks with a potential new client for a design and supervisory role on a new home studio build in my area.
The obvious question is how much, the reply, well. . It depends. So many variables exist in studio construction it's very different than any other type of construction in a home.
So as a preliminary starting talking point I have him a basic structural materials cost estimate. This was based on the alloted area 22'x24' with two rectanglular rooms, divided by a double wall assembly. Very crude, but a starting point, and a weigh to address some basic cost vs benefit stuff. Since rooms of these sizes are so common in the home studio boom I thought it might be useful.
It also be great to hear from the others who have built, or had studios built for them, to get a scope of studio costs in general. I'll attach the cover sheet full size and the breakdown in the attachments. I'll also include one preliminary layout, which is non rectangular, and based closely of the picture on the cover of Build It Like The Pros.
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kmetal, post: 436645, member: 37533 wrote: Yes as far as costs @
kmetal, post: 436645, member: 37533 wrote: Yes as far as costs DonnyThompson Kurt Foster JayTerrance
I am curious what your investments were. For two reasons total cost, and cost per sqf.
i doubt my experience is relevant. i built my studio KFRS, on a different planet and a different time. 1990's ...... SF Bay Area. i think i put about $100,000 total over the years in three stages. 1000 sq ft, 2000 sq ft. and back to 1000 sq. ft.
on the initial start up, most of what was spent went on equipment. in the first year i purchased about $30,000 worth of gear and more in the following years.
into the building; tile flooring in the live room, air conditioning and 220v electrical for the a/c, a cage and bars for the window where the a/c was placed, a 10' x 8' x 9' drum booth in the live room with window, a double pane aluminium framed patio door placed sideways, that i scavenged from the trash scrap pile at a glass shop across the complex. they were glad to let me take what ever i wanted because the bums used to break out the glass to salvage the metal frames and leave busted glass mess all over.
i didn't spend a whole lot on the acoustics. one nice thing was since the space was so large, i didn't need much in the way of corrective treatment other than reflection control. i scored a nice set of diffuser’s, some wall panels stuffed with fluffy pink from Stanley Burrell's defunct studio across the parking lot (along with some choice pieces of equipment that needed repair) on the cheap from the landlord. he came into my place one day and said, "Tomorrow, you come over and pick out what you want. What ever's left, I'm gonna throw in the dumpster" ... and he did!
i went to a place that sold used office fixtures and bought some tables chairs and a load of fiberglass office partitions covered in grey Gulliford in steel frames. i took the floor stands off them and mounted them to the wall with wall screws through the frames. it left just enough space on the wall above them to glue 2 foot strip of foam.
an acquaintance's wife managed a foam factory so i scored couple of a box truck loads of 3" foam free in exchange for some free hours. a neighbor was a roofer, he was always bringing me blue Styrofoam roof sound proofing for free. i had worked previously for a dry wall factory that was part of Pacific Coast Products and i was able to get deep discounts for sheetrock and sound board. the only thing that cost me a lot was the carpenters and the lumber.
Maybe $100,000. in 1990 dollars total over the whole time, including equipment, maintenance, and the three different phases of construction. ($200,00 now?). The initial start up costs were about $25,000. i didn't lose money, i can say that.
as in the beginning, the finish was a coming together of circumstance. serendipity. i loved it and at a point, i hated it. i worked so hard, 14 hours a day, 7 days a week, no breaks, i would go to bed and dream i was mixing all night. i would wake up exhausted. i think now, it was time for a change but at the time i was too involved to see it. funny how the universe steers you in the directions you need to go.
Brien Holcombe, post: 436675, member: 48996 wrote: "My hunch is
Brien Holcombe, post: 436675, member: 48996 wrote: "My hunch is $100 per sqf average for studio construction accross the board."
Well, you would be incorrect. Let me say a thing on product. I have 5 guitars, cost range from hundreds to thousands. Why is that? Is it branding, quality of material, precision of product...yea, all of that. Having been involved in residential and commercial construction for all of my adult life the two are different in aspect, goal and finished product detailing and the two are priced differently often using materials and equipment specifically for the either residential or commercial market, subsequently the two have paid me according to market.
And then there is remodeling which, as you have learned, is an entirely different ball of wax all together with.
How much does a recording studio cost changes according to many factor. Location is first. Expectation of finished product is on the list. Material grade and quality are on the list. Budget is primary.
Budget sets the stage. You cannot build a 100k product if all you can muster is 34k. So does that fall into the 100 USD per square foot? No it does not. And here is why, at least in part.
Location, location, location.
Then you have the actual dimensions of the area, from out of the ground or existing building or is it a remodel to a structure and is that structure zoned commercial, residential or a fish-house?
A commercial project will require ADA compliance, no if's, and's or buts.
What is the cost to build a room 12 feet X 24 with 8 foot tall ceilings against building a room 12 feet X 24 feet with 12 foot ceilings? The additional height, material costs and complexity for building the structure alone and all the trades people that will come behind you will modify the cost of the recording studio cost. An 8 foot ceiling can be handled with ladders. A 12 foot will require scaffolding and a scissor lift with a slower time line.
That alone is enough to break out of 100 USD per square foot cost for building or remodeling a recording studio.
Back about 10 years ago when I was involved with johnlsayers.com and this site we would recommend that what ever the square footage cost of custom home building was in their >location< was a better place to start then shooting from the hip. And it still is. Spec housing can get as low as 58.00 dollars a square foot here in my area with custom ranging from 150 and up.
Where you live I imagine these prices are different.
There is no square footage bracket you can use to educate customers with who are interested in building a recording studio. There is location, budget and expected product finish as to what the market will bear.
As a firsthand example. Marco did not include HVAC in his build. So his square footage cost is significantly lower as is the complexity of the HVAC install and the other trades as to how they would be involved in the project to meet the obligations as defined by contract and code.
I agree to an extent, I was not using labour in that estimate. Labour in NYC is different than middle of Oklahoma.
I think figuring in the estimate 'the cost of high end construction' is fair, and I've been saying that to answer this very question since I saw you say it a couple years back in another thread.
Gear was also not included, which when you hear about multi million dollar builds it likely is, but who knows for shure.
If you scaled the costs of studios of different locations to a median I'd be curious to see how my '$100 per sqf' estimate holds up. Or if you scaled that to Massachusetts values, where I'm from, how it would hold up.
Granted if your building a new high rise that's millions of your re fitting a barn that's different. I'm talking the studio itself. Massing up the shell counts as studio.
I'm in no way trying to say 'I'm right' just rather put a number to it and see how it actually stands up to reality. An average is an evasive thing. If this poll was big enough with all sorts of studio owners chiming in a national average could be made somewhat accurately. I know max recently said his studio cost about 65k. and he did at least half the work himself if I had to guess based on his build thread. That was something like 40x45 with some added space. He also cut down trees and milled a lot of the finish wood himself. Lol I like that determination.
Each country is different of course.
A quick Google search indicates $50k as a national average. In my city, 7sq miles, population 100k, 35k is the average income.
I stopped showing up to statistics class in college so I don't know how to do weighted averages and all that.
What I'm after here, is something besides the ever popular, and ever true 'it depends'. Maybe it's just not possible.
It'd be interesting to hear from John Sayers, and rod, and John Brandt Ect, to hear what there average budget/build is.
Also the era plays into it as well, studios are generally smaller and more single personal oriented and probably at least a slight majority residential. This same question in 1980 would yield different results.
Also as far as hvac, 10k seems to be the point of entry and 'average' cost for studios that I've heard about who have installed them. Again very broad statement indeed. And not counting labour.
Kurt Foster, post: 436676, member: 7836 wrote: i doubt my experi
Kurt Foster, post: 436676, member: 7836 wrote: i doubt my experience is relevant. i built my studio KFRS, on a different planet and a different time. 1990's ...... SF Bay Area. i think i put about $100,000 total over the years in three stages. 1000 sq ft, 2000 sq ft. and back to 1000 sq. ft.
on the initial start up, most of what was spent went on equipment. in the first year i purchased about $30,000 worth of gear and more in the following years.
into the building; tile flooring in the live room, air conditioning and 220v electrical for the a/c, a cage and bars for the window where the a/c was placed, a 10' x 8' x 9' drum booth in the live room with window, a double pane aluminium framed patio door placed sideways, that i scavenged from the trash scrap pile at a glass shop across the complex. they were glad to let me take what ever i wanted because the bums used to break out the glass to salvage the metal frames and leave busted glass mess all over.
i didn't spend a whole lot on the acoustics. one nice thing was since the space was so large, i didn't need much in the way of corrective treatment other than reflection control. i scored a nice set of diffuser’s, some wall panels stuffed with fluffy pink from Stanley Burrell's defunct studio across the parking lot (along with some choice pieces of equipment that needed repair) on the cheap from the landlord. he came into my place one day and said, "Tomorrow, you come over and pick out what you want. What ever's left, I'm gonna throw in the dumpster" ... and he did!
i went to a place that sold used office fixtures and bought some tables chairs and a load of fiberglass office partitions covered in grey Gulliford in steel frames. i took the floor stands off them and mounted them to the wall with wall screws through the frames. it left just enough space on the wall above them to glue 2 foot strip of foam.
an acquaintance's wife managed a foam factory so i scored couple of a box truck loads of 3" foam free in exchange for some free hours. a neighbor was a roofer, he was always bringing me blue Styrofoam roof sound proofing for free. i had worked previously for a dry wall factory that was part of Pacific Coast Products and i was able to get deep discounts for sheetrock and sound board. the only thing that cost me a lot was the carpenters and the lumber.
Maybe $100,000. in 1990 dollars total over the whole time, including equipment, maintenance, and the three different phases of construction. ($200,00 now?). The initial start up costs were about $25,000. i didn't lose money, i can say that.
as in the beginning, the finish was a coming together of circumstance. serendipity. i loved it and at a point, i hated it. i worked so hard, 14 hours a day, 7 days a week, no breaks, i would go to bed and dream i was mixing all night. i would wake up exhausted. i think now, it was time for a change but at the time i was too involved to see it. funny how the universe steers you in the directions you need to go.
Man that's F-ing awesome Kurt. Truly is. The whole story, the pics. Really cool man. Love that hardcore DIY just get it done mentality, the free glass, awesome stuff.
Jelous of the 220v!!!!!
The inflation calc said 187k in 2016, was 100k in 1990. So you were 100-200$ per Sqft range, and I'm guessing that was including the 35k innitial equipment investment. or no?
Saved those pics for my archive man.
thanks Kyle, it was a long time ago. i think i was $30k in on t
thanks Kyle,
it was a long time ago. i think i was $30k in on the initial equipment investment (console, JH24, the new gear purchased from Leo's) in the first year, not counting what i already had and another $5k to $10k on the first stage of construction.
The $100k was over all the years, from start to the end.
try to put that pile of gear together today for $30,000. i don't think you could. i didn't include the piano, the organ or instruments in the $30k figure.
the piano was another $10K ... the organ and leslie were cheap. so cheap i can't remember what they cost, maybe i traded some time for them. $600 into the drum set. PA speaks for the L/R were like a few hundred. we had a Marshall JCM 900 head & 4/12 cab, a hi watt head, a blond bassman head and 2/12" cab, 2 or 3 different small lo watt amps, Fender Deluxe tweed narrow panel ... '66 ampeg jet ... SWR bass amp w/ Peavey Black Widow 15"/2/10" cabs. .... i'm sure i'm missing a few things.
the 3rd pic, with the piano is the live room at stage 2. a couple of those partitions i mentioned are behind the leslie. sorry for the dim light, the pic was snapped with a film camera, no i phone.... the room was like 1000 sq feet and had a 16 foot ceiling. i splayed the walls at one end and built 2 isos 15' X 12' X 10' for vocals or drums and a small closet sized iso for amps, leaving a space above them that was 6' tall. along the front of that space we put in a slat wall and i stuck a load of that free blue Styrofoam behind that and placed soundboard directly behind the slat wall. .... plus there was a small office space i used for storage that was there when i moved in.
the building was a cinder block industrial bay, so it didn't really need a/c if we kept the doors closed, except in the front office / lounge. i did put some space heaters in the live room during the winters but the C/R was heated plenty by the console! :ROFLMAO: it already had a handicap access bathroom in each bay.
if i needed to build again, i would do the same thing. go rent an industrial bay. you get big rooms and high ceilings which avoids huge room modes eliminating the cost of tons of room treatments, and addresses a lot of the concerns Brian was bringing up like the ADA compliance. The doors are wide, the B/R's have handicap access / rails ... you just have to get a DBA or an LLC (i recommend the latter) and buy slip and fall insurance (both necessary to get the lease). sometimes you can even get the owners to make upgrades or build to suit. if you are successful and show a profit, you can write the whole cost of the studio off your tax at the end of the year. so in a way, it's free! you just have to have deep enough pockets to start and the client base to support it.
Kurt Foster, post: 436701, member: 7836 wrote: the piano was ano
Kurt Foster, post: 436701, member: 7836 wrote: the piano was another $10K ... the organ and leslie were cheap. so cheap i can't remember what they cost, maybe i traded some time for them. $600 into the drum set. PA speaks for the L/R were like a few hundred. we had a Marshall head & 4/12 cab, a hi watt head, a blond bassman head and 2/12" cab, 2 or 3 different small lo watt amps, Fender Deluxe tweed narrow panel ... '66 ampeg jet ... SWR bass amp w/ Peavey Black Widow 15"/2/10" cabs. .... i'm sure i'm missing a few things.
Droooooolll.
A good control room never needs heat right? Isn't that the saying. lol
You really had the real thing. Concrete block is a perfect outer shell, even better if its solid block.
We had to follow Ada with reguard to having one handicapped accessible bathroom. Bathrooms are often an overlooked element of studio designs, especially the home/backyard assortment. That along w ac/heat.
Woulda loved to get some ambient mics going in that main room.
The only time I ever tracked in a room that large was some ramshackle office room in a haphazard mill for a few nights. The air in the single electric guitar (panned left) was picked up by the drums and it was so big and thick, and a bit eerie. I've never gotten ambience like that before or since.
Lol film is cool, I'm an old soul. Now ya take HD pics on you phone and get an app to make them look like film, lol. Things go around in circles it seems.
I wholeheartedly agree of you start w enough cubic footage you get great sound w far less work. I like to say space is the best acoustic treatment you can get. Building adequate size rooms saves so much in treatment, and makes recording easier, and mixing Ect. Not that everything has to be gigantic, just appropriate.
there's recordings still available of stuff Bruce Kaphan did the
there's recordings still available of stuff Bruce Kaphan did there there. He brought in a stack of his own mic pres and some mics coles / earthworks. i dropped Bruce a line and asked about what recordings he did there. After the sessions, he told me "This room sounds GREAT!"
I got this answer from Bruce.
Those albums got great customer reveiws. Pretty cool kurt! I ho
Those albums got great customer reveiws. Pretty cool kurt! I hope one day I'll record something that 'off the shelf' like that sweet! So Bruce engineered it over at your place? I looked up the credits and he was credited as engineer. Either way it's a great string sound.
Check it out everyone!
yes. Bruce produced and recorded the sessions to PT at KFRS. i n
yes. Bruce produced and recorded the sessions to PT at KFRS. i neglected to mention he brought in his PT rig. i assume he mixed it at his home studio, which isn't too shabby on it's own right. i think he used my place because he didn't have a large room to track in.
He is a very talented person. I was fortunate enough to play guitar in Bill Montana's Saddle Rack Riders with him for a year or two. He's a very good guitar player too.
Man! I knew some real great players back then. Nashville Legends Bobby and Larry Black, Bruce, all the musicians in the Riders, Ron E. Beck the drummer from T.O.P as well as members of the the horn sections from both T.O.P. and Huey Lewis & the News, Gary Cambria and Dave Mead from The Tubes, Kenny "Blue" Ray blues guitarist with a huge cult following, Sista Monica, sax player extraordinare' the late Kenny Baker, Austin de Lone, Polo Jones, Danny Hull from the Doobies, just to mention a few. Most of them were very nice people. One or two were jerks. All killer. It really spoiled me .... i have little tolerance for musicians who can't do live takes now.
Your a lucky guy in that respect. The closest I get to pros are
Your a lucky guy in that respect. The closest I get to pros are cover bands who gig regularly.
When talent and original creativity meets a killer room and vibe, that's the magic recipe. Or at least I've been told and read.
I'm gonna look up some of those guys when I get few minutes. I love rock and roll stories!!!
kmetal, post: 436698, member: 37533 wrote: What I'm after here,
kmetal, post: 436698, member: 37533 wrote: What I'm after here, is something besides the ever popular, and ever true 'it depends'.
Unfortunately pal, it does depend....and very often on things that can be out of your control, too.
And, like it or not, even the best-built studio in the world is nothing more than a great-sounding, well-isolated, empty shell - without the gear needed to turn out professional mixes... so at some point, you are going to need to figure in the cost of gear, too...and in our business, that can get pricey pretty quick. You know as well as any other pro cooker that you can easily drop 4K one microphone alone.
And, you have to take into account that which will make you stand apart from all the other "studios" that are popping up everywhere now ... because the average person doesn't know anymore what it really does take to get a truly professional recording accomplished. You have to carve yourself out a niche, some kind of specialty that you can offer that no one else near you does... which is certainly not impossible, but it's not always easy, either.
While an "average" is, of course, good to shoot for - no doubt you need some kind of baseline as a starting estimate - it's difficult to determine the actual end cost, as just the cost of materials alone that are needed can vary so widely.... and I'm not talking about the price difference between a pine/poplar stained floor and a genuine teak wood parquet floor - those things are aesthetic; and while looks do count for client's first impressions, you don't need those kind of aesthetics to have a great-sounding studio with solid isolation...
The cost of materials needed goes up - or down - depending on your location, your local code(s) - that which is deemed to be necessary by your regional construction laws; along with the season, the overall market; and other things, too - like gas prices for example - will also come into play, because the cost to transport those materials to your local vendor(s) can go up or down considerably, depending on the cost of fuel at the particular time that you need them, and that will effect the price of the materials.
I'm one of those guys who could never do the labor to build his own studio. I might be able to understand what needs to be done in the "general" sense, or even on paper; but I lack the skills and the know-how to actually do the labor.
Short of simple tasks like hanging absorbers or diffusers, or installing a cloud, or putting up some shelves, I simply can't do the work necessary - because I'm not a construction guy - I never have been, and have never claimed to be - I remodeled my attic 20 year ago - and barely got out alive - LOL, but remodeling an attic into a bedroom is not the same thing as constructing a commercial space; so I would need to figure in the cost of labor as well - and that ups the cost considerably. ;)
If you are able to do the labor, and meet the codes required for your area, then you could save a bunch of money... but if you don't know what you are doing, you could very well end up costing yourself so much more in the end.
While I absolutely do understand the attraction to owning your own studio - as do many other cats here, I did it myself for almost 20 years - but looking at this strictly from a business/economic approach ...
Are you sure you wouldn't just rather be a hired gun, and book time at an existing professional facility for your clients? Those big, pro rooms are hurting these days - some very badly - and as an experienced and skilled cooker, you could probably get after-hours time at ridiculously low rates, and then just simply tack your own fee on top as an engineer... you wouldn't need to worry about things like building maintenance, gear repair, insurance, utilities, snow removal, alarm systems ... and you could always bring in a few pieces of your own on any given session that you'd like to use, too... ;)
Unless... unless you are doing this strictly for you, without any expectations of profit, and if you do end up making money, then that's an unplanned but pleasant bonus. Lots of people have spent huge sums of of money on their own indulgences - Ever own a boat? You know the old saying about a boat being a hole in the water into which you constantly throw money? Ask me how I know that to be true... LOL.
Hell, brother, I probably spent 25 G's alone back in the 80's, on women, booze ( and certain illicit substances), LOL.
So, if you are doing this for you first, and if this is what will make you happy - then I encourage you to move forward. There are some things you can't put a price tag on, and happiness is one of those things. :)
IMO of course. ;)
-donny
Probably the best way to organize this would be in two parts wit
Probably the best way to organize this would be in two parts with three levels. It is typical to be able to purchase many a product under the "good, better, best" motif. So if you simply took the two major catagories of construction(overall) and recording equipment(overall) and developed a good, better and best type model for each one.
It is impossible to access a chiseled-in-stone number to pretty much anything in respect to new or retro fitted construction. Heck, it is after all, an "estimate" of work.
And that applies to recording equipment to be fair. Just have a look at the many products, the ones that are required, that the public gets lost in every day.
DonnyThompson, post: 436754, member: 46114 wrote: Unfortunately
DonnyThompson, post: 436754, member: 46114 wrote: Unfortunately pal, it does depend....and very often on things that can be out of your control, too.
And, like it or not, even the best-built studio in the world is nothing more than a great-sounding, well-isolated, empty shell - without the gear needed to turn out professional mixes... so at some point, you are going to need to figure in the cost of gear, too...and in our business, that can get pricey pretty quick. You know as well as any other pro cooker that you can easily drop 4K one microphone alone.
And, you have to take into account that which will make you stand apart from all the other "studios" that are popping up everywhere now ... because the average person doesn't know anymore what it really does take to get a truly professional recording accomplished. You have to carve yourself out a niche, some kind of specialty that you can offer that no one else near you does... which is certainly not impossible, but it's not always easy, either.
While an "average" is, of course, good to shoot for - no doubt you need some kind of baseline as a starting estimate - it's difficult to determine the actual end cost, as just the cost of materials alone that are needed can vary so widely.... and I'm not talking about the price difference between a pine/poplar stained floor and a genuine teak wood parquet floor - those things are aesthetic; and while looks do count for client's first impressions, you don't need those kind of aesthetics to have a great-sounding studio with solid isolation...
The cost of materials needed goes up - or down - depending on your location, your local code(s) - that which is deemed to be necessary by your regional construction laws; along with the season, the overall market; and other things, too - like gas prices for example - will also come into play, because the cost to transport those materials to your local vendor(s) can go up or down considerably, depending on the cost of fuel at the particular time that you need them, and that will effect the price of the materials.
I'm one of those guys who could never do the labor to build his own studio. I might be able to understand what needs to be done in the "general" sense, or even on paper; but I lack the skills and the know-how to actually do the labor.
Short of simple tasks like hanging absorbers or diffusers, or installing a cloud, or putting up some shelves, I simply can't do the work necessary - because I'm not a construction guy - I never have been, and have never claimed to be - I remodeled my attic 20 year ago - and barely got out alive - LOL, but remodeling an attic into a bedroom is not the same thing as constructing a commercial space; so I would need to figure in the cost of labor as well - and that ups the cost considerably. ;)If you are able to do the labor, and meet the codes required for your area, then you could save a bunch of money... but if you don't know what you are doing, you could very well end up costing yourself so much more in the end.
While I absolutely do understand the attraction to owning your own studio - as do many other cats here, I did it myself for almost 20 years - but looking at this strictly from a business/economic approach ...
Are you sure you wouldn't just rather be a hired gun, and book time at an existing professional facility for your clients? Those big, pro rooms are hurting these days - some very badly - and as an experienced and skilled cooker, you could probably get after-hours time at ridiculously low rates, and then just simply tack your own fee on top as an engineer... you wouldn't need to worry about things like building maintenance, gear repair, insurance, utilities, snow removal, alarm systems ... and you could always bring in a few pieces of your own on any given session that you'd like to use, too... ;)
Unless... unless you are doing this strictly for you, without any expectations of profit, and if you do end up making money, then that's an unplanned but pleasant bonus. Lots of people have spent huge sums of of money on their own indulgences - Ever own a boat? You know the old saying about a boat being a hole in the water into which you constantly throw money? Ask me how I know that to be true... LOL.
Hell, brother, I probably spent 25 G's alone back in the 80's, on women, booze ( and certain illicit substances), LOL.
So, if you are doing this for you first, and if this is what will make you happy - then I encourage you to move forward. There are some things you can't put a price tag on, and happiness is one of those things. :)
IMO of course. ;)
-donny
I hear ya D. I'm just on this topic becasue I think there has to be a batter way to offer an answer to the basic question than most get. i think gear is a bigger every variable than labor. I'm thinking more in the sense of materials and labor basic wiring, the studio infrufrsturctrue itself. There's a strong relationship between construction labor and materials, so you could get a Nataional average or ratio. Say for instance, in a basic template it's a 3-way split materials/labor/profit.
There's just got to be some more standardized answers so each person who asks doesn't have to earn a Ph.D. When all they wanted to know was "would foam work in my living room." Lol
Brien Holcombe, post: 436764, member: 48996 wrote: Probably the best way to organize this would be in two parts with three levels. It is typical to be able to purchase many a product under the "good, better, best" motif. So if you simply took the two major catagories of construction(overall) and recording equipment(overall) and developed a good, better and best type model for each one.
It is impossible to access a chiseled-in-stone number to pretty much anything in respect to new or retro fitted construction. Heck, it is after all, an "estimate" of work.
And that applies to recording equipment to be fair. Just have a look at the many products, the ones that are required, that the public gets lost in every day.
Equipment could be set in the good better best, but equipment varies a lot more than building materials. Guitars electronics it's impossible to include gear unless you assigned a generic setup or gear price range per catagory. Like the difference of an 8ft 2x4 is going to cost about the same with a couple dollars around the USA. But one basement could have $300 of gear and the other 10k. Just way too much of a variable.
If the category were more along the lines of size and purpose large professional, small/mid pro, semi pro home, home. It would also give a general sense of scale for the labor and equipment varaibles, in a very general sense. Something like that could work.
DonnyThompson, post: 436754, member: 46114 wrote: I'm one of tho
DonnyThompson, post: 436754, member: 46114 wrote: I'm one of those guys who could never do the labor to build his own studio. I might be able to understand what needs to be done in the "general" sense, or even on paper; but I lack the skills and the know-how to actually do the labor.
me too. i paid carpenters to do the framing, hang wall board, install doors / windows. i hired an electrician to do electrical. i got the landlord to install a security door in the entrance. it's not like i did a huge dyi thing. i just did the design and contracting. even at that, i saved a bundle.
"Equipment could be set in the good better best, but equipment v
"Equipment could be set in the good better best, but equipment varies a lot more than building materials. "
Which is exactly why I asked you to establish a base line for the product under the heading of "good, better best". Once that is done, I could purchase anything you can purchase, anywhere in the USA for the exact same price all that it would have to do would be under the "good, better, best" heading. Enough said on that.
Materials are basically all the same as well. What is not the same is what has been outlined already and that is what does the budget allow. Simple as that. I can purchase paint products and painting gear under the "good, better, best" model already defined. Or I can purchase high quality paint products and purchase jack leg gear.
You will never...ever...develop an across the board "one-size-fits-all" format that will encompass your geographical location, my geographical location and some other yahoos geographical location stuck out in hells-half-acre, USA. If that were possible then using data prepared by http://www.turnerconstruction.com/ we could have achieved that already. But the labor prices keep escalating, material costs fluctuate and project timelines continue to be beaten up due to either demand or shortage.
But let us talk about that labor issue for a moment. Kurt and Donny are both already on record as not having time nor inclination to do the work. So someone has to do the work right? Guess what, can't just any old body that has a hammer and a saw do the work. Oh sure, I seen the light of day with many a blue collar dressed pickup driving redneck who professed to be a cracker jack carpenter and who was nothing short of a helper with a paint brush.
So that brings us back to the "good, better, best" model. One person believes their work to fall under the "best" heading but I might categorize it as being listed under the "good" heading. A company of persons who have been working together for a while will produce, dollar for dollar, a better product at a lower cost with a better timeline than a ragtag bunch of LaborFinder guys with the best of intentions using the same materials and blueprints.
This website is about recording and the gear used to achieve that goal. Can we get on that and drop this ridiculous notion that the construction world is going to be turned on it's ear by a bunch of guys many of whom do not even own a hammer :)?
Brien Holcombe, post: 436802, member: 48996 wrote: "Equipment co
Brien Holcombe, post: 436802, member: 48996 wrote: "Equipment could be set in the good better best, but equipment varies a lot more than building materials. "
Which is exactly why I asked you to establish a base line for the product under the heading of "good, better best". Once that is done, I could purchase anything you can purchase, anywhere in the USA for the exact same price all that it would have to do would be under the "good, better, best" heading. Enough said on that.
Materials are basically all the same as well. What is not the same is what has been outlined already and that is what does the budget allow. Simple as that. I can purchase paint products and painting gear under the "good, better, best" model already defined. Or I can purchase high quality paint products and purchase jack leg gear.
You will never...ever...develop an across the board "one-size-fits-all" format that will encompass your geographical location, my geographical location and some other yahoos geographical location stuck out in hells-half-acre, USA. If that were possible then using data prepared by http://www.turnerconstruction.com/ we could have achieved that already. But the labor prices keep escalating, material costs fluctuate and project timelines continue to be beaten up due to either demand or shortage.
But let us talk about that labor issue for a moment. Kurt and Donny are both already on record as not having time nor inclination to do the work. So someone has to do the work right? Guess what, can't just any old body that has a hammer and a saw do the work. Oh sure, I seen the light of day with many a blue collar dressed pickup driving redneck who professed to be a cracker jack carpenter and who was nothing short of a helper with a paint brush.
So that brings us back to the "good, better, best" model. One person believes their work to fall under the "best" heading but I might categorize it as being listed under the "good" heading. A company of persons who have been working together for a while will produce, dollar for dollar, a better product at a lower cost with a better timeline than a ragtag bunch of LaborFinder guys with the best of intentions using the same materials and blueprints.
This website is about recording and the gear used to achieve that goal. Can we get on that and drop this ridiculous notion that the construction world is going to be turned on it's ear by a bunch of guys many of whom do not even own a hammer :)?
There's just no need to over complicate it. The questions are simple how much, how big, when? Eventually no matter how many variables you exclude or omit you could try and narrow it down. That's not really the point, just a simple average based in people who replied. It'd be great to get average budgets from studio builders/acousticians who've been doing jobs regularly for years. I don't think anything is going to turn the world on its ear, rather just some examples of what and how much when.
Guys...I'm sorry to jump in here if that's inappropriate, but I
Guys...I'm sorry to jump in here if that's inappropriate, but I came to the forum today in search of an answer, and after reading this thread...I must admit I just got a little discouraged about my proposed studio build. My basement room is roughly L 17' 10" x W 17' 4" x 8' 10" and I have a budget of possibly $15k to $20k. I am talking with a contractor on Monday who has built at least one pro studio previously. But at this point, I have no idea what the actual cost could be. That's why we're meeting. One of the things I'm trying to ascertain is whether I can afford him.
BUT...it seems like you guys feel that with such low ceilings, spending that kind of dough--no matter what--would be wasteful, and spending the cash instead on removable room treatments would be the wiser path to take?
(I guess, in one way, it's not discouraging, but would be a way for me to not have to spend too much and maybe use a little extra for gear.) ;)
But seriously, am I wasting money trying to build out this small of a room according to the instructions in Rod's book? I guess I'm confused now. Maybe I can still build it Rod's way without all the expense?
I guess my main question is: supposing the contractor comes back with a quote in my budget range. Would I be foolish to invest that much in a room that...as some have said in this thread...will still never get me to where I thought I could go? (I will be the first to admit I am an absolute novice with this stuff--it's just that--up until reading some of the comments on some of the threads here in this forum, I was proceeding as though reading Rod's book and building according to his instructions would be worth it if it didn't cost too much. Of course, being a novice, I have no idea what "too much" is.)
Help? Please?
At approx. 65usd a square foot based on a 20k budget you can do
At approx. 65usd a square foot based on a 20k budget you can do a good build...but you first need to establish your isolation requirements..without that baseline y ou r just putting good money after bad.
Next thing you need to do is to understand how and why a square room...and yours is close enough... is not a good place to build without modified
hard boundaries of the room.
Thanks for the reply, Brien. My isolation requirements are fairl
Thanks for the reply, Brien. My isolation requirements are fairly high, I think. I'm building in my basement--and I'll be recording and jamming in this room while my kids are being homeschooled in the same basement. That is, if it all works out. I'll put it this way: in each chapter of Rod's book, when he explains options, I've been going with the one that isolates the most in each case.
As for your second comment on the modified boundaries, do you mean building according to the suggested ratios he mentions in the book? Because I did punch in my numbers a few ways, and the modifications definitely shrunk the room quite a bit. Or do you just mean doing something like angling the walls the 6% that he recommends?
Thanks again for responding.
Hey pcrecord, I guess I'll say I want it as pro as I can get it
Hey pcrecord,
I guess I'll say I want it as pro as I can get it. Not because I'm going to use it commercially but because I want to get my music to sound as good as I can. I will disclose that I record almost everything directly: bass/elec guitar through a UA 6176 pre or an Axe Fx unit, drums are electric usually, and keys are MIDI. Really the only acoustic recording I do is vocals and the occasional acoustic guitar. Pretty basic rock stuff. And per Rod's advice in the book, since I'm just recording myself, I'm going with what he calls the "combo room."
But, I understand that mixing is really where the room matters for playback, so...I wanted to invest as much as I can without foolishly overspending. Frankly, until reading this stuff, I wasn't all that concerned that I could cross a "wise budget" barrier if I just followed Rod's advice?
Right, Brien... But if I follow the ratios in the book, the roo
Right, Brien...
But if I follow the ratios in the book, the room is substantially altered as to be no longer square. Correct? Is that what you're saying I should do? Because the only reason I didn't automatically go with one of those ratios is that Rod says in the book those are best used for rooms under 2000 cubic feet, whereas mine is around 2700...
Or do you mean buildng in that room is not a good idea period?
Yes...you can build in that room as long as you understand the
Yes...you can build in that room as long as you understand the sonic dangers of a square room. I also would like you to read a page on my website: http://buildthisroom.com/picking-room-ratio-golden-optimized-ratios/
Basically I wrote this page to try and calm people down who worry about room ratios when a ratio is the least of your concerns. If you do not build a square or worse, a cubed room, its all cake.
Thanks for responding, Brien. But you should just go ahead and s
Thanks for responding, Brien. But you should just go ahead and slap me now. I read that page three times and I thought I understood each time until the ultimate conclusion. Are you saying I should use one of those ratios? And as long as I do I'll be ok?
Sorry, man. I'm slow. (Think: paint-by-numbers slow)...and I haven't even done drugs in about thirty years...
Yeah. I hear you. I've been reading Rod's book back and forth fo
Yeah. I hear you. I've been reading Rod's book back and forth for months, but to be honest, this is why I came to this forum in search of help--because even though I feel like I've learned a lot, I'm clearly not so confident yet that I could really tell this builder who is coming to my house on Monday exactly what to do. If we don't speak the same language, I may have to postpone until I know more. I have a few pages of notes, but frankly still have a bunch of questions.
Haha. Now I'm lost again. Brien, you seem to be saying proceed w
Haha. Now I'm lost again. Brien, you seem to be saying proceed with the build, but then Kurt just commented that the ceiling is too low for such. I see that you liked that comment, too. Right? Ha. Ok. Now I'm definitely unsure.
Please permit me to ask you a question in response to your statement, Kurt: When you say you would just do treatments and live with it, do you mean just forego the whole idea of a combo/control room altogether and just, say...finish the room with normal construction methods and treat it afterwards with bass traps and diffusors and such? Or still proceed with my isolation plans but skip the ratio idea? Then treat it acoustically?
Sorry. I ask because that's the way the comments at the beginnin
Sorry. I ask because that's the way the comments at the beginning of this thread sounded to me: like some people thought even doing all that isolation would be a waste of time and just using removable acoustic treatment woul be the only sensible way to spend money. I.e.: if, since your space doesn't fit the dimensions for what Kurt called a "legal" build, why invest in all this other isolation if you won't achieve a "legal room"?
"My hunch is $100 per sqf average for studio construction accros
"My hunch is $100 per sqf average for studio construction accross the board."
Well, you would be incorrect. Let me say a thing on product. I have 5 guitars, cost range from hundreds to thousands. Why is that? Is it branding, quality of material, precision of product...yea, all of that. Having been involved in residential and commercial construction for all of my adult life the two are different in aspect, goal and finished product detailing and the two are priced differently often using materials and equipment specifically for the either residential or commercial market, subsequently the two have paid me according to market.
And then there is remodeling which, as you have learned, is an entirely different ball of wax all together with.
How much does a recording studio cost changes according to many factor. Location is first. Expectation of finished product is on the list. Material grade and quality are on the list. Budget is primary.
Budget sets the stage. You cannot build a 100k product if all you can muster is 34k. So does that fall into the 100 USD per square foot? No it does not. And here is why, at least in part.
Location, location, location.
Then you have the actual dimensions of the area, from out of the ground or existing building or is it a remodel to a structure and is that structure zoned commercial, residential or a fish-house?
A commercial project will require ADA compliance, no if's, and's or buts.
What is the cost to build a room 12 feet X 24 with 8 foot tall ceilings against building a room 12 feet X 24 feet with 12 foot ceilings? The additional height, material costs and complexity for building the structure alone and all the trades people that will come behind you will modify the cost of the recording studio cost. An 8 foot ceiling can be handled with ladders. A 12 foot will require scaffolding and a scissor lift with a slower time line.
That alone is enough to break out of 100 USD per square foot cost for building or remodeling a recording studio.
Back about 10 years ago when I was involved with johnlsayers.com and this site we would recommend that what ever the square footage cost of custom home building was in their >location< was a better place to start then shooting from the hip. And it still is. Spec housing can get as low as 58.00 dollars a square foot here in my area with custom ranging from 150 and up.
Where you live I imagine these prices are different.
There is no square footage bracket you can use to educate customers with who are interested in building a recording studio. There is location, budget and expected product finish as to what the market will bear.
As a firsthand example. Marco did not include HVAC in his build. So his square footage cost is significantly lower as is the complexity of the HVAC install and the other trades as to how they would be involved in the project to meet the obligations as defined by contract and code.