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anonymous 17 January 2002

The other thread was getting so bloated, I thought I'd start a new one.

I've been reading with interest all the tributes to Recorderman's 2 drumstick overhead configuration, but have been kind of set in my ways about drum recording for a while. Finally, on a session today I thought I'd take the plunge and revamp everything I ordinarily do.

In addition to RM's overhead configuration (I used MC012's) I replaced all the dynamic mics on the toms and snare with large diaphragm condensers, except for a 57 on the bottom snare. (Using whatever odd mics I had left over that had a pad - 414BULS, 414EB, even a C3000). Another new wrinkle to my usual method was I just got an API 3124, which I used for both snare mics and the overheads. Plus this was my first chance to use my new Lucid GenX6 with my Pro Tools 24 Mix+ system.

Given all the new variables (positioning, mic's, clock), it may be hard to precisely determine which factors affected the sound the most - but I can say that the session captured the most slamming drum sounds I have ever recorded. I now have a new M.O. when it comes to drums, thanks in no small part to RecorderMan. I might also note that in the past I would typically be running a bunch of pluginswhile tracking - compressors, eq's, reverbs - to tweak the sound of the kit. Except for a couple of outboard compressors on the kick and snare, this time i was able to record everything totally flat - and the drummer thought that it was by far the best drum sound he had ever heard from my studio - even better than the finished mixes that he had played on.

I'd like to also note that one of the Rack Toms was close mic'ed with a 414EB going to a Daking Pre and then direct to PT (no compression). In combination with the overheads (and a Royer room mic) the drummer was so blown away by the sound that he admitted playing that Tom far more than he ever would normally. The problem is I may be forced to find a couple more EB's and Dakings to match that sound on the rest of the Toms!

Any drawbacks? Maybe only one: the stereo image from the overheads is not like what I am used to, but by panning the close mic's, I can probably get whatever I need.

Anyway, just another testimonial from a new convert.

Comments

damster Thu, 01/17/2002 - 22:10

This is my first reply at this forum(been here for two days now).I am not much of a typist so I generally tend to just read but I had to pay homage to Recorder Man for this micing technique.The kit has gained new depth in the soundfield giving it a much more lifelike or 'being there' sensation.My studio is using lower budget gear than most of you but I am learning to suck the most out of it.I am using an NT1 for OH(floor tom side)and shure sm94 for OH(snare side) with the preamps from my Yamaha 4216 recording console into the line inputs on the back of my digi 001 ( pro tools Le 5.1.1 ).
I'm not sure yet but I think I am going to spread the info around on recorderman's technique(giving all the appropriate credit of course)at my local music retailer and see if anyone catches on or not(we hang out there....sometimes too long).
Recorder Man, I am indebted to you greatly.Thank you so much for sharing!

Ted Nightshade Fri, 01/18/2002 - 07:30

More praise to the overhead thread and RecorderMan's great contributions. No I'm not doing things exactly that way, but yes I'm getting the best drum sounds ever as a result of reading that whole thread. My kit is a bit unusual with a lot of woodblocks, gongs, bongos, and other percussion stuff, which may account for my variance.
I always place mics by ear, and what I ended up with was a figure 8 mic on either side of the drummer's head, pointing diagonally at the side of the kit opposite the mic, and angled so that the lobes of one figure 8 roughly fill in the nulls of the other. That and a close mic placed by ear on the kick (damn KM184 clips unless bass drum is played very quietly, but sounds good. Really need a mic that will take some SPL....).
Placing the kit under a very high ceiling helped a lot too.
Praise!
Ted

RecorderMan Tue, 01/22/2002 - 12:38

Thanks, littledog, glad your drums are rocking...isn't tracking drums the best?.

Any drawbacks? Maybe only one: the stereo image from the overheads is not like what I am used to, but by panning the close mic's, I can probably get whatever I need.

I would suggest; instead of changing the shape by panning the close mics, instead, listen to the placement as the OH's pick it up. Placing the close mics in the same position,panwise, as the OH's see it, will result in a tighter, punchier sound.

audiokid Tue, 01/22/2002 - 14:05

Henchman, RecorderMan, I posted this link on the "Spot Light/Audio Clips" pull down menu (top left of the forums). I sent you a PM but I suspect you don't check it?

I hope members check it out and see if this kind of thing is useful for our site and how to better my first attempt. I would like to promote certain audio clips/artist etc. Any suggestions on how to do "The Spot Light Audio Clips page" please let us know.

Also, if your not comfortable with the link on up there let me know and I will remove it. Nice work,

RecorderMan Wed, 01/23/2002 - 08:14

Originally posted by Henchman:

Here's a link with some songs I recorded using the 3 mic set-up

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www3.telus.n…"]3 mic technique[/]="http://www3.telus.n…"]3 mic technique[/]

Hey Henchman,

Not Bad....my critique would focus on the kick not being centered-a pet peeve of mine-especially noticible on "Tell Me". My technique, as described is particularly effective at adressing this, and achieving the open, dynamic, sonic paradigm you so aptly demonstrate. Over all, your recording worked particularly well on the bigger tracks. It does cement certain things for the mix though, for better or worse.

Henchman Wed, 01/23/2002 - 10:17

Originally posted by audiokid:
Henchman, RecorderMan, I posted this link on the "Spot Light/Audio Clips" pull down menu (top left of the forums). I sent you a PM but I suspect you don't check it?

I hope members check it out and see if this kind of thing is useful for our site and how to better my first attempt. I would like to promote certain audio clips/artist etc. Any suggestions on how to do "The Spot Light Audio Clips page" please let us know.

Also, if your not comfortable with the link on up there let me know and I will remove it. Nice work,

I tried responding to your email, but i got the response that your mailbox was full.

Henchman Wed, 01/23/2002 - 10:19

Originally posted by RecorderMan:

Hey Henchman,

Not Bad....my critique would focus on the kick not being centered-a pet peeve of mine-especially noticible on "Tell Me". My technique, as described is particularly effective at adressing this, and achieving the open, dynamic, sonic paradigm you so aptly demonstrate. Over all, your recording worked particularly well on the bigger tracks. It does cement certain things for the mix though, for better or worse.

I'm goin to try your exact set-up next time. One ofthe things I like about this way of recording, is it's fast. And, the sound always sems to be much fuller. Which means I don't need a zillion ovedubs to make the song sound full.

Mark

audiokid Wed, 01/23/2002 - 11:53

Originally posted by Henchman:


I tried responding to your email, but i got the response that your mailbox was full.

Henchman, oh :eek: Thank's for the heads up on that. I just cleaned my mail up.

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
-Chris,
Unless I'm reading the above wrong; I didn't receive a PM.
-RecorderMan

RecorderMan, no, I just sent Henchman an email, sorry, I'm not the best writer. I gather you're all okay with this?

regards

Chris

Guest Wed, 01/23/2002 - 17:56

Originally posted by spp:

If you liked it the way you did it, imagine how much better it would sound with good mic pres!

APIs are overrated.

Uh, oh.... Now you've done it. Opened up an ugly can of worms on my innocuous warm and fuzzy post! OK, everyone - batten down the hatches, gird your loins, hide your daughters, etc. :eek:

RecorderMan Fri, 01/25/2002 - 07:07

APIs are overrated.[/QB]

hardly. Some of the best sounding tracks of al time were cur exclusively on API's. If all I had to work on was an API desk I wouldn't complain. That said, I will also note in your support that, the first thing that studio's-like Sunset Sound-change on an API desk IS the pre's, it's the EQ's that really give it it's power,a s well as the over all design...way more head room than a Neve.

RecorderMan Fri, 01/25/2002 - 07:22

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade:
Why is it such an important thing to have the snare and bd centered? I like having the bd and bass on opposite sides more or less (not hard panned) to help seperate them. Having the bd and bass duke it out in the middle hasn
t been as good for me.
Ted

Answer...TO BE AS BIG AS YOU POSSIBLE CAN. Anything that is dead center is going to have the bennnefit of voth speakers pushing on it giving it an edge in volume. In line with this thought, when you get the kick and snare center in the OH image w/my method, end you place the Kick and snare tracks up the middle also, and since my method correctly sets the phase relationship between the kick & snare in the OH w/ the individual Kick & snare tracks. You are going to have Bigger ,Punchier kick/snare's with more depth...built in. Now you canPlace that monster Bass up the middle.

TRY THIS TRICK: Straight from the master of Bass himself (nicked by yours truelly) Mr. Geoff Emerick...the man behind the boards for Sgt. Pepper-AbbeyRoad, ect. When Mixing....Mix without the Bass track. Use High pass filters on everything that doesn't need lows. I.E. High pass the GTrs (maybe) to around 300hz - atn the same time adiing some 300-350 with a bell curve (to give the E-gtrs some low mid, but removing the Low. Low stuff that for most of the time is irrellavent to an E-Gtr track). Do this to all instruments. Get the Mix sounding great like this. Listen at a very low level in mono, and djust over all ballances. NOW, go back to stereo, turn up the monitore a bit, add the BASS. Make the over all track level rise a few db on the stereo meters by adding the Bass ( Geoff makes the tarck around 3db louder by adding the Bass)...your taste may vary. A LOUD bass with punchy phat drums is a formula for success.
listen to PET SOUNDS(Beach Boys) & "Other Side" (RHCP), to hear all that can be done in MONO.

Ted Nightshade Fri, 01/25/2002 - 08:30

Thanks recorderman. we'll give it a try. Only I'm lacking in the HPF department. I'm fascinated by the whole mono compatibility thing. Haven't had any disappearing instruments, but the relative levels sure do change when I hit the mono button.
BTW the bass for me is a keyboard one going usually down to the third key on the piano, Low B, like a five string bass guitar. This compounds the competition down there at 20-50 hz. I could see where a fourstring bass guitar would sit above the bass drum.
Ted

Ted Nightshade Sun, 01/27/2002 - 07:15

OK, we're centered! I got: 2 overheads, pretty low, 2 distance/room, cardioid spot mike on beater side of bass drum 2 inches above beater, pointing away from snare etc., and one parallel to that, on edge of underside of snare with the null on the bass drum. The spot mics are pointed either same angle as OH's or exaclty opposite. No more subtle phase weirdness. Oh yes! We like it! BTW all tube mic pres (so much nicer on the cymbals and bells) except for nice dry solidstate on the bd and snare bottom mics.
Flipping the polarity of the bass direct signal yeilds very interesting results, both ways totally usable: one's tighter, one's phatter.
All praise to RecorderMan! :w:
Ted

Mixerman Mon, 01/28/2002 - 18:50

Ah, yes. I see I've created a monster. Recorderman. I wonder where he got THAT name from.

I see that you have discovered that Recorderman is full of little nuggets of recording information. Just don't forget, if it weren't for Mixerman, there never would have been a Recorderman. Recorderman was invented at The Village last year as we were working on a record together. You see...all us superheroes, hang out together.

Shout out to RM!!!

(Oh, and thanks for the help the other night. I got it working after I spoke with you. I'm never recording without resolving to video again.)

Mixerman

RecorderMan Tue, 01/29/2002 - 13:09

[

(Oh, and thanks for the help the other night. I got it working after I spoke with you. I'm never recording without resolving to video again.)

Mixerman[/QB]

Actually...get you-know-who to rent a micro-lynx...the one with word clock in...then you can run two inch & alsihad together on the same external clock and LTC as positional ref. The best way to go....

Thanks for the shout outs (where's Lorber?)

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