Could be "flying shotguns". I learned this trick in film school:

Put shotgun mics way up high and aim them at the source. You get clear audio without seeing any microphones.

Extensive post-processing may be required, but there are some shotgun mics that are so good that they can be quite a distance from the source and still get a clear sound with little "room sound" because of their directional nature. Couple those with a high-quality preamp (because you'll need more gain) and you have a winner. I've seen/heard it done. Works great most of the time.

The mics in this video may be up in the lighting grid. In that case they'd be way up high but out over the audience so they can be angled back towards the choirs. Probably at least three mics (L-Mid-R) but maybe more. Might also be other room mics tracked and mixed in later.

I have never heard this many wireless mics in use before? I love the microphone & automatic volume control on this guys camcorder.

Actually these microphones sound like B&K/DPA's. The microphone that is in view I believe to be an announcer/host microphone not used for the musical vocal pickup. I love these kinds of games. They usually prove everything you know is wrong.

I'm not always right but I'm never wrong
Mx. Remy Ann David

I'd guess what you're hearing here is: excellent ensemble, sweet sounding room, recorded more or less from the camera location.

dvdhawk, post: 363596 wrote: I'd guess what you're hearing here is: excellent ensemble, sweet sounding room, recorded more or less from the camera location.

What mics record that nice from that far back? It apprears to be what... 60, 80 + feet and then two flanks about 6' high? Would those be cardioids?

dvdhawk, post: 363596 wrote: I'd guess what you're hearing here is: excellent ensemble, sweet sounding room, recorded more or less from the camera location.

I see what you mean Dave, about the announcer's mic on the side. Isn't it too high though? And what is then picking out the sides. Its really apparent there is far left and right separations, more that what a center mic (blumlien / ORTF/ M/S) in this yes? Please share your idea's. I'm so wanting to be able to get a mix like this (room considered).
ORTF can be set back further yes?

JohnTodd, post: 363519 wrote: Could be "flying shotguns". I learned this trick in film school:

Put shotgun mics way up high and aim them at the source. You get clear audio without seeing any microphones.

Extensive post-processing may be required, but there are some shotgun mics that are so good that they can be quite a distance from the source and still get a clear sound with little "room sound" because of their directional nature. Couple those with a high-quality preamp (because you'll need more gain) and you have a winner. I've seen/heard it done. Works great most of the time.

The mics in this video may be up in the lighting grid. In that case they'd be way up high but out over the audience so they can be angled back towards the choirs. Probably at least three mics (L-Mid-R) but maybe more. Might also be other room mics tracked and mixed in later.

Would shotguns be able to be this open sounding though?

Similar sound and record-est here . I'm seeing two front (Cardioid's ?) in
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://choirbragblo…"]2010 September « Choir Directors' Brag Blog[/]="http://choirbragblo…"]2010 September « Choir Directors' Brag Blog[/]

Got a better angle, similar sound now with a center and what looks to be the announcers mic :

The second video is the medium recital hall with an ORTF pair on a stand. I think U of U has several halls at the school and if I remember this one is the Libby something or other hall. 500ish seats and really quite a nice performance space. It has been more than a decade since I've seen this hall but there was a flown ORTF pair when I performed there last. The first video sounds like it is pretty far back. It could easily be a something like an H4n running into the camera or even a high end stereo MS shotgun.

We recording engineers think a lot about our mixing environment and studio rooms but we forget that finding a pristine recording space is a magic thing. There are zero halls that good here in Billings but I performed and recorded in those type of halls in the day before I got tied down here by fate and marriage. The Morman community is a huge supporter of music in their colleges and schools.

Libby Gardner Concert Hall

My memory wasn't so far off. Just a little musty.

Chris - that's one of the K&M 20811 stands showing in the last video you posted. It sounds like they have a pair of DPAs or Schoeps in ORTF on a bar on top of the stand (no boom), but I can't make out much visual detail from the video. The radio mic on the stand must be just for announcements.

Here's one for Jack - what advantage is there in putting the piano that way round, even with the lid off?

audiokid, post: 363603 wrote: Would shotguns be able to be this open sounding though?

Yes, they can if they are the expensive ones and are placed just right. But post-processing equipment is often brought to bear, too.

If you go to YouTube and watch the 1st vid at full screen, you'll see at least a pair of DPA's suspended from the ceiling. They appear to be approximately 16'-18' above the stage.

The resolution is so low, that they do appear to randomly disappear... but look just to the inside, and above, the tall thin Bose system speaker on the right side, and directly above the one on the left... they're there.

Boswell-That is pretty common here to have the lid opening towards the choir. IMO it has a couple of reasons. First a Steinway D could obliterate a good portion of choir from the audience perspective. Second the choirs often need the piano to stay together ensemble wise. Inconceivably choirs often claim not to hear a piano facing away. Often the piano is pulled further back stage left which also allows the pianist to discreetly trail the conductor onto stage and also leave if necessary on acapella songs.

Max-I saw those side hanging mics. Those are horrendously wide though without a center hanging somewhere. Honestly I was performing a chamber recital last time I was there as a visiting artist so wasn't really paying attention to the hangs. Not to mention it could change at wim.

In answer to your question can shotguns sound this sweet? You bet your Neumann MS shotgun it can. That's a microphone I had the intense pleasure of using for a similar recording, from the cat walks of another auditorium. Although I didn't think that this was MS. And it's certainly not coming from a camcorder shotgun 80' back, no way. I was only kidding. I wasn't kidding about the B%K/DPA guess. The onstage microphone is definitely for announcing only is not part of this recording. That would have been painfully obvious. There is something most definitely hanging over the left & right side of the choir as that appears even too wide for ORTF or, even for a pair of 10' wide spaced omnis. The focus on the left & right side is too pronounced & critically focused to have been captured this way from a simple stereo microphone.

I know what I don't know (I never saw the second video either, yet, no reason)
Mx. Remy Ann David

This one shows all three hanging mic's. Max spotted the wings and the center was just not apparent in the original video.

3! Cool! There was that beautiful focus in the center.

Okay, okay, another Remy story....

My dad was the concertmaster for the Syracuse New York Symphony Orchestra and was involved in a recording for CBS records of some jazz pianist. I can't remember the pianist's name, sorry. This recording was performed in the then newly renovated Carnegie Hall, strictly for a recording session. A CBS custom audio console that had been modified many times over was utilized. It was fed into 2 Ampex MM 1000-16 track master recorders. Over 30 microphones were in use. There were 3 Neumann U87's L-C-R positioned approximately 4 rows back in the audience. At a typical union break, I said to the engineer (who wasn't going anywhere) that I thought it sounded simply wonderful. We were listening to mixes with all of the microphones active. I asked him what just those three 87's sounded like by themselves? He gave me a great big smile, this +65-year-old dude and said..." Listen to this kid...". Well, needless to say, it was glorious all by itself. But because it was a CBS records job, 30 microphones were employed. He told me most of the recording would be mostly just those 3 in the end however. That teaches a young engineer like myself at the time, an awful lot. It was even funnier when his "ringdown" intercom phone started ringing behind him. I could see the guy on the closed-circuit monitor looking up at the camera with the phone to his ear. The phone in the upstairs control room (where I was) had now rung approximately 10 times right behind the engineer. He never noticed. So I tapped him on the shoulder and told him his phone was ringing, to which he looked surprised and said " oh??...thank you...." & answered it. I guess he couldn't hear anything above those old Bell telephone bells?? He was the main mixing engineer EIC (Engineer In Charge). C'est la vie

Don't answer the phone man....
Mx. Remy Ann David

Chris-
I've been listening to these vids and coincidentally I've been moving archival concert recording sessions to a bigger drive listening to some of the choral festival stuff. I'm getting a little jealous of your festival gig! There is something about a good/great/phenomenal choir blending and emoting that reaches into you. My favorite ensemble (orchestra) can get there but often times just isn't as intimate. If you're bored sometime wade through the youtube stuff for Z Randall Stroope, Rene Clausen, Richard Nance etc. It ain't the opera of your mother but still nice.

TheJackAttack, post: 363758 wrote:

This one shows all three hanging mic's. Max spotted the wings and the center was just not apparent in the original video.

Its funny, now that I see them here, I can actually hear them overhead.

The other video sound is much better to me. This one is cooler sound where the other is IMO golden .

TheJackAttack, post: 363876 wrote: Chris-
I've been listening to these vids and coincidentally I've been moving archival concert recording sessions to a bigger drive listening to some of the choral festival stuff. I'm getting a little jealous of your festival gig! There is something about a good/great/phenomenal choir blending and emoting that reaches into you. My favorite ensemble (orchestra) can get there but often times just isn't as intimate. If you're bored sometime wade through the youtube stuff for Z Randall Stroope, Rene Clausen, Richard Nance etc. It ain't the opera of your mother but still nice.

Thanks John, I'm very excited.

Those ceiling hangs are pretty darn high for a choir. They are much better suited to a concert band or symphony but on the high side for that too. I'm also guessing they are loosely hung in a spread Decca arrangement. That would also explain all the hall in the sound due to the rear pair being over about the 6th row of seats. The ORTF pair in O Magnum Mysterium is much lower and closer to the choir which aids in the presence of the sound. Of course that isn't saying the overhead hang isn't blended into the mix but I doubt it. It sure looks like the wires are going to the front row and a flash recorder/cd recorder. I'm not familiar with the entire DPA line but those mic's look pretty large to me. When I watch the HD video of Vienna Philharmonic those mic's are f'n invisible. Not to be seen. Hell, they even dress the camera in front of the conductor to look like a viola player. But that isn't much of a stretch ^_^

Crown SASS

audiokid, post: 363497 wrote: So beautiful...
University of Utah Singers-Sure on this Shining Night

The separation is very nice, where do you think the mics are here?...

I'm surprised no one has seen the elephant in the room.

This video was recorded with a Crown SASS mic, plainly visible in the video hanging near the top. You can hear its exceptional imaging, as well as it's somewhat bass-shy frequency response.

The SASS is a fantastic microphone, but definitely not my first choice for choirs. I consider it the the opposite of a stereo ribbon mic on choirs, if that means anything to you.

crownaudio.com/pdf/mics/126982.pdf

Re:

Welcome to our community here!

I wondered what that was. I see a box directly above the director just off center. Is this what you mean?

audiokid, post: 364058 wrote: Welcome to our community here!

I wondered what that was. I see a box directly above the director just off center. Is this what you mean?

Thank you! I've been lurking.

And yes, that is correct. Here is another image from a choral recording: http://acda.org/files/imagecache/banner_image/Banner023.png

RemyRAD, post: 363757 wrote: The focus on the left & right side is too pronounced & critically focused to have been captured this way from a simple stereo microphone.d

This can be done with a stereo microphone.

Well that explains it. I couldn't "hear" it as DPA mics. On the other hand, every pzm hang I've heard sounded kind of awash like that.

LOL! Yeah that SASSy Crown microphone I didn't see it, since I was looking for something far more conventional. It's basically a foam dummy head with PZM's. I had not really anticipated seeing one. You don't see them very often and of course, they don't look like a microphone. But you got me buddy! You got me good. Although I think the general consensus was accurate in that most folks here realized we were listening to somebody's small capsule electret weather it came from Denmark or Taiwan.

Folks, you do know this is a Taiwanese capsule we are listening to?
Mx. Remy Ann David

Having compared the SASS mic to the DPA 4006, I can confidently say that you would have a hard time distinguishing them casually. The SASS mic can do a better job of keeping clarity in reverberant spaces and has superior imaging over headphones.

If the little dark specs out to the side in the video had been DPAs, you would have heard the same thing as if they weren't DPAs: two mono recordings with a massive hold in the middle, poor balance, and a phasey piano.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of flankers being mixed in at a low level.

NorseHorse, post: 364066 wrote: Thank you! I've been lurking.

And yes, that is correct. Here is another image from a choral recording: http://acda.org/files/imagecache/banner_image/Banner023.png

This can be done with a stereo microphone.

Like a Royer SF "" ?

We are agreed about a hole if there had been only those flanks. I'll check the Crown out a little more up close and personal sometime. Perhaps if it had been lower in the hall I would like it better. There are a couple of places here that have flown pzm in A-B spacing. In all cases it is kind of washed out in my opinion. I've offered to at least come in and rehang them for better audio. They all seem interested but no one takes me up on it.

Yeah, and we are actually evaluating & talking about the same Radio Shaft capsule you find in a $30 microphone except that these are tested, calibrated, verified by Crown. And then stuck into a cool foam head. So it's not binaural but SASS :P a.k.a. another PZM in disguise.

Your recording is certainly a compelling reason to purchase one
Mx. Remy Ann David

Yes. Despite my comments it is a nice recording.

Well, I'm convinced enough to add one to my arsenal that's for sure.

For those of you interested in hearing more of the Crown SASS mic. Please listen in at least 720.