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anonymous 24 June 2008

Hello and good day to all and sundry,

I once had the art of coiling a mic lead up so that it doesn't twist the wires explained to me by a pink haired roady at a house party. Unfortunately whatever he was on kicked in half way through and it never really made sense.
Is this something that can be explained or only learned by mimicking?

Cheers and other pleasantries to all.

Comments

Codemonkey Tue, 06/24/2008 - 17:01

This is interesting. The last few times I've had to coil stuff, I've been trying something. You may have seen the dance move where you spin your hands round and round above and under each other (unclear description, I know).

Put left over right. Move left forward and down, right backward and upward so they end up in each other's place (circular motion). Repeat.

That motion, I'm trying to work out how to get a cable coiled using that technique but failing miserably. I think it might end up too straight though.

Also, I saw a few people coiling cables between their elbows and wrists. I make a circle hanging from my hand, any thoughts on either method?
To me, the first seems to cause too many kinks.

Recording.Org: Your one stop resource for cable coiling needs. :lol:

taxman Tue, 06/24/2008 - 17:33

I am sorry, none of you are correct.
See the animation attached. A search for "coiled rope" found the following methed of over and under, which is easiest to do and undo without adding twist

http://www.animatedknots.com/coiling/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

The alternate is to twist each kink out as you coil it, but this will rekink if not unwound as from a revolving spool. Otherwise, if you just grab one end, it will add twist as it uncoils.

bent Tue, 06/24/2008 - 20:21

The industry standard for xlr is the over-under wrap.
You've gotta know how to properly wrap and unwrap it or it'll make a knot every foot or so. The result is a flat, straight cable across your floor or stage.

Here's a decent set of pix:
http://www.techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/flipcoil/howto.html

With practice you'll end up doing it to everything (even your garden hose) without thinking about it...

What Taxman posted I've always called the PARC Studios wrap (over-under with the noose windings on it - if you throw it across a stage or studio it will not come apart).

I do the so-called PARC wrap when the cable doesn't have a velcro or tie-line on it.

Space Tue, 06/24/2008 - 20:38

There is not enough time in my day to do this over under stuff...remember I'm a carpenter. But my cables at home get the same treatment as we suggested UT...so it works, I'm not wrong and if ya stand still long enough I can lasso ya with a cord ;).

As too wrangling a cable up around the flatted palm and elbow, bad idea for several reasons. The cable gets stretched which leads to breakage and,with the proper amount of time and twisting, the ends will come off as the wire shifts inside the sheathing.

bent Tue, 06/24/2008 - 21:21

PARC Studios was a large SSL / Studer based studio in Winter Park, Florida.

Owned by Pat Armstrong who, I believe, either managed / engineered / or produced Molly Hatchet.

It's also the place I used to work with Otis Redding's son Dexter (as well as make coffee and fetch lunch)...

Now it's called Big Time Studios, or something like that.

bent Tue, 06/24/2008 - 21:27

Here's the new, hip (ehhh...) website of the place:

http://www.bigshotmusicstudios.com

I have no idea where the "25 Years" claim comes from - it was still owned and operated by Pat as PARC studios in 1995 when I was there.

Many times I used to go to his office and beg for some coin for gas to get back home to Cocoa Beach...

(Not even sure if Limp Bizkit was on anyones radar back then)

Oh, now I see it's home to "The Mixing Workshop" - whatever that means...

anonymous Tue, 06/24/2008 - 21:47

Cheers guys!
Much food for thought. It seems coiling with the natural twist would be beneficial when a band mate goes to uncoil something. Having boat loads of knots would be fun for only the briefest of times.
However, the over-under style seems to have it when you need to throw the cable out.
The faster I can pitch/strike the more time I can spend in the alley.

Edit: When I say "to throw the cable out" I don't mean into a bin. :)

RemyRAD Wed, 06/25/2008 - 03:35

People that can't coil or over/under cables & snakes drive me crazy! That was one thing you had to learn how to do correctly & quickly at NBC. Anything less wasn't tolerated. And what really blows my mind about most folks that go to recording schools. The inability to do that. Coiling cables is recording 101.

Knots to you!
Ms. Remy Ann David

hueseph Wed, 06/25/2008 - 20:47

Greener wrote: [quote=bent]
Don't hand me your resume if you can't coil a cable!

I see you're rather passionate about this.

Now I have to practice.

You know. It sounds extreme but I heard a lot of that working the Jazz fest and Music festivals out here. It's not just the cable coiling. It's about standards. If the basic standards aren't met, chances are you're going to fail again and again on down the road. When you can trust someone to maintain a simple standard, work just flows that much easier. You don't want to be checking somebody's work every ten minutes to make sure he's not screwing something up.

The alley can wait till the show is over and the gear is packed.

Thomas W. Bethel Thu, 06/26/2008 - 03:52

Hardest thing to teach a new student or intern. They all want to do it quickly and use the hand/elbow method. When you catch them and have them do it the correct way they look at you like you are from another planet.

I learned how to do this in the 50's from my junior high school AV director. We did not have Velcro back then so every cable had a piece of thin rope, black in color, tied to one end of the XLR cable. I further learned in college how to do the ABC and the NBC over under method and this is the technique I try to get my students to use today.

When I worked for a sound company on the road my boss was a real stickler for doing this correctly and would take time to instruct each of his employees on the proper method of coiling and if he caught you doing it incorrectly he was not above yelling at you in front of everyone including the artist. You learned fast or you got yelled at.

We use to have cable parties when I worked at the local college and we would take all the cables stretch them out on the floor in the hallways get all the kinks out of them by twisting and correctly coil them up. This was always done at the end of the year to get ready for next year. Usually a case of beer was involved AFTER the coiling session. It was fun and everyone got to start off the next year with freshly coiled cables.

BobRogers Thu, 06/26/2008 - 09:50

See, this is what I get for working for a living when I should be reading recording.org. Favorite topic of mine. Always hate the end of a gig when people who don't know over/under want to "help." Lifting a 150# amp is helping. Turning my cables into a spool of knots isn't.

I didn't know the PARC wrap. I'll try it out.

Never studied any knot theory as a mathematician. (Yes, Virginia, there is a branch of mathematics called knot theory.) Probably a very inefficient way to learn to wrap over/under.

Cucco Thu, 06/26/2008 - 10:09

I resisted using over/under for a very long time simply because interns or part timers never seemed to be able to grasp it and they would always make the cable wraps much bigger than a traditional loop coil. It was annoying for sure. My current intern (new as of March) learned the over/under very quickly and I haven't had to worry about it since.

The biggest trick with him is to make sure he uncoils (or tosses) it correctly. I've had to untie cables a lot.

I agree with Bob - it's annoying as hell to have people volunteer to help and then screw everything up. Worse, I hate seeing "volunteers" to the elbow/palm wrap. I always politely state to volunteers that I appreciate their offer to help, but we have it down to a near-science and that we can get the take-down handled quickly.

anonymous Thu, 06/26/2008 - 13:40

Seeing as just about every big name here at RO has weighed in now, I'm starting to see a pattern emerge. :P

My only cable, a 10' XLR, has been wound up that many times...

Seriously, thanks everyone.

Any other skills a newbie with an inability to keep his mouth shut should have to make himself more attractive when looking for an internship?
I can get coffee.
I can coil properly now.
I can listen, though I ask a million questions.
What else?

hueseph Thu, 06/26/2008 - 14:00

Learn not to ask questions. Write them down and only ask the questions that you can't learn from watching.

Always take legible notes. I don't know how it is now but in the past, half of the assistant's job was documenting. That may not be so much true anymore with on screen settings. Hone your sketching skills.

Thomas W. Bethel Thu, 06/26/2008 - 17:11

Greener wrote: Seeing as just about every big name here at RO has weighed in now, I'm starting to see a pattern emerge. :P

My only cable, a 10' XLR, has been wound up that many times...

Seriously, thanks everyone.

Any other skills a newbie with an inability to keep his mouth shut should have to make himself more attractive when looking for an internship?
I can get coffee.
I can coil properly now.
I can listen, though I ask a million questions.
What else?

Be observant but try not to get in the way of people working. It maybe appropriate for you to watch someone plugging in microphone lines to a splitter but get too close and you and the person plugging could butt heads if they stand up too quickly.

Ask questions when appropriate but only when you are sure the person has time to answer them, i.e. not in the middle of a sound check or tech problem solving. Know when to talk and when to shut up.

Keep your wits about you and make sure you are not adding to the problem. Watch were you walk and look up as well as strait ahead so someone does not lower a speaker cluster onto your head. Learn how things work and what plugs into what. I worked for a sound company that used XLRs for speaker cables and if you were not watching you could plug a speaker cable into a microphone splitter or console. The same goes for 1/4 inch plugs that are used for speaker cable as well as line inputs.

Learn the lingo of the company you are working for. There are some universal terms like XLR but also some sound companies have very different names for the equipment and setups. I have been at shows where the FOH area is referred to as control central and the FOH engineer as Big Daddy. I have also heard various names applied to different setups for different venues like Galaxy and Star Trek for the way lighting trusses and speakers were hung. Every sound company is different and every engineer likes things done his way. Learn quickly how to set things up. Find out who is in charge and do what they want you to do. If in doubt ask question BEFORE you do something. Nothing is more devastating to a sound company than to have their FOH console or the Monitor mix console go out because someone did not know what they were doing and plugged the console into a dimmable circuit.

Have a good attitude and don't get uptight.

Best of luck!

Codemonkey Thu, 06/26/2008 - 17:37

This is teh helpful.
When I coil stuff I don't do over/under, but more over-over-over-over, which is a big fault I guess.
I like the current method: when it works, it's irrelevant what end you uncoil from. Usually it fails and requires a bit of untangling.

Is the point of over/under largely to keep the cable straight and not damage shielding?

If you follow the rotten instructions I gave for the hand motion, I use that to bring some cables into a pile at my feet, and then over-over-over (no, as of now, over/under) coil it.
I reckon it would make a rotten job of coiling but would be lightning fast at doing the job, but maybe because I can actually make my hands a blur when doing that. Or was the blur caused by the drink...
Anyway, forget that. If I work it out and manage to over/under coil using it then I'll post it to youtube and you can watch.

Also, I hate the elbow coil thing. Who came up with it and why do people think it's good?

bent Fri, 06/27/2008 - 22:05

Is the point of over/under largely to keep the cable straight and not damage shielding?

Yes, that - and quality - and standardization; and, dare I say - craftsmanship!

Oh, I thought of another reason I do it:

PRIDE

Because:
I'm an engineer.
I'm a technician.
I'm a professional.
I'm proud of my work.

(It's the little things that count - think about it)

Pat Armstrong...uuughh...Molly Flaccid...UGHHHH!!!!!!!!! They ripped me off many moons ago. Does PARC have some 451's,M500's, 421's,and a U87 with my SS# on them????

Moon,

I just saw this!

Yeah, that SOB probably does.
I know beyond a doubt that he still has my Skil Saw from back when I was nice enough to bring it in and help rebuild Studio B!!!

(Even my wife is ticked off about that)

Small world, indeed!

Off-topic (Surprise!)...

I had to jump through a dozen hoops today searching across the country for a damn 441 Windscreen!

It is hard as hell to find a 441 Windscreen these days!

( I have 5 on back-order from Senn. - will not be available until 7/28 )

Jeezus H!!!

Codemonkey Wed, 07/02/2008 - 10:25

OK, I'm clueless. Just grabbed a cable, about 30 feet of coax aerial lead (annoying stuff) and taught myself to flip-coil.

Should I start with the male or female connector (standard?), and...
What do I do with the ends? Bent's link from about 30 posts ago summarises too much.
Should I wrap one end around all the loops a few times, or
should I knot both ends together? Or should I ignore the cable and do the YMCA?

PS: only 2 of about 25 cables we own have a velcro strap on them.

Codemonkey Wed, 07/02/2008 - 10:45

String...you're more likely to find a comfy pew than a foot length of string in our church.

Thanks, somehow the thought of knotting didn't sound too good now I think about it.
Although our cables are cheap anyway. The most expensive cable belongs to a guitarist, who coils his $50 cable (pfft) using the elbow-hand "technique". I shall point out unto him, the error of his ways.

I do NOT look forward to doing this with the snake :(

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