Down in my neck of the woods there is a band known as "FUGAZI". To the best of my knowledge they are the only indie band who has sold upwards of one million CDs on their own! At one point in their career they wanted a record contract but could not attract any labels. Obviously they have some marketing prowess and when they started selling thousands, that is when the record companies approached them. At that point, they had no interest in signing with any label and continued about their way. I'm not sure if they are in the Guinness Book of World Records but I think they should be? I mean you don't get this far from just sitting around on your bass drum. They obviously were pro activist. It just proves that garbage in can equal gold out!

Don't throw that cigarette butt away, I'll finish it.
Ms. Remy Ann David

Wait a minute! I don't smoke cigarettes!

Wow, they really have it, Fugazi. I guess if sucessful means having decent profit doing nothing else but music. Major labels take u up there to the filthy rich point I guess as they help you advertise and stuff and they only care about the money not the music. They advertise at public boards mass media and have all the radio station well connected.

Indies don't have the dough for all the heavy advertising but with good stuff selling through live houses and boutiques, smaller stores where the propable music buyers frequent. But there are bands which do mroe tours then recording which generates alot too.

My stand is that if you have the good stuff, you can be sucessful without major help as audience will come to you rather and propagating via W.O.M.
Thats when the major labels come and leech the talents using marketing to expand profits which is desired by both parties... plus the internet today with amazing distributing powers, spread their music, be knowned then start eh business... who needs TV? haha

RemyRAD wrote: Down in my neck of the woods there is a band known as "FUGAZI". To the best of my knowledge they are the only indie band who has sold upwards of one million CDs on their own! At one point in their career they wanted a record contract but could not attract any labels. Obviously they have some marketing prowess and when they started selling thousands, that is when the record companies approached them. At that point, they had no interest in signing with any label and continued about their way. I'm not sure if they are in the Guinness Book of World Records but I think they should be? I mean you don't get this far from just sitting around on your bass drum. They obviously were pro activist. It just proves that garbage in can equal gold out!

Don't throw that cigarette butt away, I'll finish it.
Ms. Remy Ann David

Wait a minute! I don't smoke cigarettes!

FUGAZI are awesome.

They stick to their guns, i.e. don't kiss anyone's ass.

When they book a show for themselves, it has to be all ages, and the ticket prices have to be low. We are talking like $5 and $7 shows in the early 90s. I don't know what it is now.

"Waiting Room" is the only song I really love, but I tremendously respect what they have done business-wise and ethically.

i think the internet is changing and will continute to change things for musicians, as far as getting known. here, you have word of mouth, taken to a whole new level. if you can get some people excited about your music, they can help spread it all over the world. everyone knows someone else, and if you get heard by the right people, it will spread that much faster.

personally, i'd rather record all of my own music myself, market it myself, and sell it off of my own website. of course, you don't have the power of a major label behind you, so it will take longer. just consider that if/when you start to become famous, you're not sharing a large piece of the pie with a major label, and you're a slave to no one.

i think technology is turning the tables on record labels. who needs an insane loan from a record label to record, when you can set up your own studio in your home for a lot less then what it used to cost to go to a pro studio?

major labels may be the fast and easy way (when compared with doing it yourself), but you sell your soul, and in the end, you might not even make as much money if you didn't.

and after all, we're musicians. we don't like bosses. :wink:

AKR wrote: i think the Internet is changing and will continued to change things for musicians, as far as getting known. here, you have word of mouth, taken to a whole new level. if you can get some people excited about your music, they can help spread it all over the world. everyone knows someone else, and if you get heard by the right people, it will spread that much faster.

personally, I'd rather record all of my own music myself, market it myself, and sell it off of my own website. of course, you don't have the power of a major label behind you, so it will take longer. just consider that if/when you start to become famous, you're not sharing a large piece of the pie with a major label, and you're a slave to no one.

i think technology is turning the tables on record labels. who needs an insane loan from a record label to record, when you can set up your own studio in your home for a lot less then what it used to cost to go to a pro studio?

major labels may be the fast and easy way (when compared with doing it yourself), but you sell your soul, and in the end, you might not even make as much money if you didn't.

and after all, we're musicians. we don't like bosses. :wink:

I agree with most of what you are saying BUT a lot of people who go out and spend big bucks for a recording studio in their home should take some of that cash and enroll in a recording course at the local community college before they touch the equipment. So many people today buy tons of equipment, never crack a manual, think that it is all so easy, don't know how to properly record themselves and take the resulting poorly done recording and try and sell it on the web and when it does not sell they blame everyone from the equipment manufactures to the record labels that did not want to sign them. If you are going to do your own recording take the time to learn how to do it properly and you will be much better off in the long run. FWIW

I'm a musician and an engineer with an education in it, never wanted my own studio in the early days because of the expense. But with where the technology has gone, and the internet being a low cost marketing tool, I'm doing better than I expected two years into business by catering to artists who are happy staying indie. It's a double edged sword, because there's so much product out there now, an artist has to have some extraordinary marketing skills to rise to the top of the pond and get heard and seen, but it certainly is easier these days to make a living or substantial part of a living being an independant.

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:
I agree with most of what you are saying BUT a lot of people who go out and spend big bucks for a recording studio in their home should take some of that cash and enroll in a recording course at the local community college before they touch the equipment. So many people today buy tons of equipment, never crack a manual, think that it is all so easy, don't know how to properly record themselves and take the resulting poorly done recording and try and sell it on the web and when it does not sell they blame everyone from the equipment manufactures to the record labels that did not want to sign them. If you are going to do your own recording take the time to learn how to do it properly and you will be much better off in the long run. FWIW

agreed. i don't even have professional-grade recording soft/hardware yet and i'm already trying to learn all i can. if you're going to bust your ass writing songs and plop down cash for good equipment, you better give it your all.

Two words. Lisa Loeb. top 10 single before signing a deal.

Depends how you define "success". I feel it means different things for different people. It can also change with time. These days it means if I can sell enough CDs to (a) recoup the cost of post-production, and (b) fund the next project, then I've been successful in my terms. Will I make magabucks? I'll crack the jokes! Will a bunch of people have liked my songs enough to buy 11 of them in a jewel-box? Yes. Anything else will be a bonus.

I can still fail in my own terms, so it's not without risk; selling hundreds of CDs will be no walk in the park. It's no cop-out, in my view. On the contary: it is a real, achievable, worthwhile goal.

Either way, succeed or fail, I won't be a better or worse songwriter because of it. :wink:

to what thomas bethel said about the necessity of lessons. lessons for audio engineering are like lessons for a musical instrument. speaking as a musician, ive looked and experienced lessons that i didn't pay for and i can't say they were very helpful. too often the people who are "teaching" these kinds of things are nothing in themselves, and no wiser than anybody else. what makes a "professional" is really a tough question to answer but an easy answer to derive from. if that makes any sense.

im really good at guitar, in all absence of modesty, and ive never took a lesson once in my life. ive enrolled in a music theory class before, and learned far more on my own self reliance than from that teacher (who may have known some theory, but was a poor musician.)

i see too many people that come out of full sail and end up working at guitar center. just because you take some course or are even taught this or that doesn't mean you know more than anyone else. in fact often times lessons take the soul out of what you are trying to accomplish as an artist. and im saying this statement from being an extremely technical guitarist on my own self taught. the same goes for audio engineering. you make mistakes with your "art" and you learn from them, and you get better.

too many audio engineers are wannabe musicians. and most of them will cling to anything to desperately attempt to hold on to what they love. but audio engineering is a practice that is no longer as necessary as it used to be. people can do it on their own now. there are the some few who are extremely talented, most people aren't them. but for the talented musician/songwriter who is approaching the audio engineering realm, i think of jimmy page. and i just consider it more of an accomplishment for someone who is well rounded enough to do something like that. instead of those who cant do something, so they try something else.

most all of the people on this board are not george martin, eddie kramer, andy wallace, rick rubin, steve albini, bob rock even, the list goes on.

and im not discrediting the pursuit of knowledge in this subject, but especially from my perspective, on this forum it feels like i am crucified for it by people who think they are professionals. the same thing coincidentally happened when i was taking up the guitar long ago. within my first year of playing while i was still learning rapidly, so many people were quick to jump in and criticize me. then after that first year passed, i quickly surpassed most everyone of them. there are a lot of things that can make you good at what you do. it isnt necessarily being on this forum, or parading your own personal determination of what high knowledge is in this subject. there is an immense difference between sounding smart and truly being smart. majority does not rule, maybe in the music business they will flock like sheep and majority rules in that sense.

Uh. Lessons. The fact is that the greatest guitarists, er... the most skilled guitarists you will ever hear have a had lessons. Whether formal or informal they were taught. Vai, Satriani, Segovia, Chet Atkins, Reinhardt. These boys aren't good because they winged it. They're good because they know their theory. Same goes with some of the greatest engineers. They learned from someone. What's so great about being taught is that the end result becomes an accumulation of knowledge. The teachers knowledge and then what the student learns further to that knowledge. As far as ones knowledge having been self taught, that becomes apparent by his actions and statements. Now dear Liquidstudios: please honour us with some of your prowess. I really want to hear it. I admit I'm a hack so you being better than me won't surprise me. Just please stop blowing your own horn. Let us hear it!

As regards success. That is within the mind of the individual. I consider myself a successful musician because I can generally recreate what I hear in my head. I'm I an awesome guitarist? Far from it. Do I make money at it? Don't make me laugh! It costs me more than I can afford.

Still, I think that there are plenty of accomplished independents that at the very least break even. That's success as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, I'm with LiquidStudios...lessons and an education in music is a waste. I mean, when you are flowing with talent and these know-nothing teachers (and let's face it, those who can't, teach...) try to hold you back and spout BS about theory and practice, and blah, blah, blah.

I mean, studied at some major 4 year universities and even one of those conservatories, but still, nothing compared to all of my self-education. All my teachers wanted to do was tell me what I was doing wrong. At least I can focus on the important things, like, what I'm doing RIGHT! That's how I improve.

Besides, after a couple lessons "professional hornplayers" I realized that I was clearly surpassing them quickly. And to think, THEY'RE the ones that are in orchestras like the National Symphony and Baltimore...PuhLEASE!

I mean, I'm a GREAT hornplayer. You won't be able to hear me on any albums or anything though because "the establishment" keeps holding me back. But hey, that's why I have a recording studio - so I can record myself and share me with the rest of the world.

:roll:

well yeah those guys are definently great, not that it is impossible to do, some of the stuff is rather tricky from those artists. but a lot of them are lacking majorly in creativity, especially the progressive guitarists you named. lessons can help don't get me wrong and when i say lessons i just mean someone teaching you something by any particular means, could be anyone.

yeah and the thing about a lot of the kids in band these days they can maybe sight read pretty well, but when it comes to playing without their music, i've seriously seen them not know what to do with their instrument. at points there is just so much emphasis on the theory, the pro, that is leaves out music, and audio.

dont get me wrong, technicality when used properly thrills the hell out of me. ever heard the expression, sometimes the spaces inbetween the notes are more important than the notes themselves, or knowing when not to play. that cant be taught in any such classroom.

In the words of Geddy Lee: "Show don't tell.".

liquidstudios wrote: dont get me wrong, technicality when used properly thrills the hell out of me. ever heard the expression, sometimes the spaces inbetween the notes are more important than the notes themselves, or knowing when not to play. that cant be taught in any such classroom.

Uhhh...do you know the meaning of the word sarcasm??? I was kidding...

Yes, this stuff can be taught in a classroom, and as such, I try to teach it to all of my private students as I have learned this from my (phenomenal) teachers in the past.

Music is only part talent....a VERY small part. Mozart (God forgive me for saying this) wasn't that "talented" - he was RAISED in music. Music is ALL he knew from the day he was born. It only makes sense. (This wouldn't be possible in today's society - Mr. Bush would consider Mozart a "child left behind" with an "unrounded" education)

The other (95%) of music is hard work, education and dedication.

J.

hueseph, what would you like me to show you? as far as anything you can judge for recordings sake among colouration and power of the recording itself, im still learning if that isnt obvious, and im still in the process of reaching a final product.

i can achieve transparency and in turn achieve a good recording (but obviously i want to strive for higher) , you know so what do you want me to show you? my guitar playing? im also trying to develop my recording setup for that as well. but if need be or if for some reason you dont believe what i say about being a musician, then yeah by all means i will show you.

i first want you to state for all to see on the forum that you don't believe what i say about myself being a musician, and that im just a kid sitting at home with a gear mag on his lap. also i want you to hint at me not knowing what im talking about as members will usually do. if this will shut you the hell up, then lets do it.

the talent you will soon see i have as a musician in my case will permeate over to the engineering part by means of correlated growth among parts.

If you have talent let it show. No one is going to chastize you for slapping a quickie together. It doesn't have to be pristine. Frankly, I would be most pleased if you put me in my place. I never said you weren't a musician or an engineer. I do question what level of either you are, but if you are at the level that you proclaim yourself to be, then there's no problem at all.

I wan't you to be successful. Man, I don't wish bad on anyone. We're all people with thoughts and ideals. I know what it feels like to get shut down. I just think that the web is a precarious place and it is much better for all of us if we don't have to put up fronts and try to claim things that are uh...expansions upon the truth.

You're talented? Great! Shut me up! I will gladly back down and admit that I should never have questioned you. I just feel like you've been trying to prove yourself for a while now and well...just do it. Prove yourself!

To tell you the truth. It pains me to read some of your posts because I have seen the horror of statements (mine included) ridiculed having been made in error. I wish that you would never have to hear people mock you again. For your sake and mine. What saddens me is that at times you don't recognize it.

Back to the topic. I want to hear your success. Lay it on me. [/url]

djrr3k wrote: Two words. Lisa Loeb. top 10 single before signing a deal.

True, but thats kind of a special case, as she knew Ethan Hawke who put her song into that movie he was doing ... "singles" I think it was.

Although, it goes to show ya, sometimes it is who ya know.