I'm sorry to answer that it's almost impossible to achive what you're looking for with the given budjet.
The direction I would investigate is using a omni patern mic (2 or more would be better) with a very discrete and hi output level preamp and send that to an interface with good converters. Why ? because most of the sounds you want to record are low level sounds and some might be either at the room noise level or at the electronic noise level of consumer recording products. So the budget 400$?? A good quality polar patern mic will often run at higher price than that. A good pre with 60db or more of output same thing (ISA One would be a good choice)

Could you rent ?

Btw, were you using the AUTO LEVEL function of the H1, you may grab a lot of noises with that fonction when a quite times happen

pcrecord, post: 415372, member: 46460 wrote: I'm sorry to answer that it's almost impossible to achive what you're looking for with the given budjet.
The direction I would investigate is using a omni patern mic (2 or more would be better) with a very discrete and hi output level preamp and send that to an interface with good converters. Why ? because most of the sounds you want to record are low level sounds and some might be either at the room noise level or at the electronic noise level of consumer recording products. So the budget 400$?? A good quality polar patern mic will often run at higher price than that. A good pre with 60db or more of output same thing (ISA One would be a good choice)

Could you rent ?

ok. i got it. thanks

Not really want to rent as for long term.
sometimes, i want to use it for recording interview or round table talk.

What could be the best solution for ~$400? (Mic & Mixer)

pcrecord, post: 415373, member: 46460 wrote: Btw, were you using the AUTO LEVEL function of the H1, you may grab a lot of noises with that fonction when a quite times happen

yes, noise is one big problem.

i set the the input level around 30 to get balance between the noise and voice.

One problem using H1 is direction:
At the center top of the studio won't work if the leading voice stay not near center.

Coordination:(refer to number pad)
the mic set at 5
people speak near 1 3 7 9 is hard to hear
operator stay at 0

What is the ceiling made of? How high is it from the floor? Could you use one or more boundary microphones attached to the ceiling?

Have you considered having several simultaneously-active microphones distributed over the ceiling area and using an auto-mixer such as the Shure [="http://www.shure.co.uk/products/mixers/scm410"]SCM410 [/]="http://www.shure.co…"]SCM410 [/]or the [[url=http://="http://www.shure.co…"]SCM810[/]="http://www.shure.co…"]SCM810[/] to pick out the loudest channel and mute the rest?

A dance studio that big with 6 surfaces, all parallel to each other. Your only technique that is going to work is close miking - so that's it really. Wanted v unwanted sound is your goal - as much of one and as little of the other. Any distant technique is just not going to work. It's probably got mirrors, which are also amazing reflectors of both sound and visuals, making booms visible if you tried to boom in from above or below

I work a fair bit in dance studios - and close in lavs are the only technique that are going to work. Sound wise, they're horrible rooms. We even record dedicated music tracks that are produced with all the sources dry because reverb on reverb is even more horrible. If you rally have no budget - then a bay sourced cheap condenser labs plugged into iPhones on record may well give you better sound - maybe you could try something like that.

USB recording is also a crazy thing to consider - it's very inflexible, unless you buy a nice USB equipped mixer - and even then, how do you get the audio to the mixer, and where from. Small, cheap all in one audio recorders are a mother possibility.

I think you have to face up to the budget needing to reflect the acoustic problems, or walk away. In a dance studio that size - for decent clarity - then any mic more than a foot away from a mic is going to sound horrible!

Boswell, post: 415376, member: 29034 wrote: What is the ceiling made of? How high is it from the floor? Could you use one or more boundary microphones attached to the ceiling?

Have you considered having several simultaneously-active microphones distributed over the ceiling area and using an auto-mixer such as the Shure [="http://www.shure.co.uk/products/mixers/scm410"]SCM410 [/]="http://www.shure.co…"]SCM410 [/]or the [[url=http://="http://www.shure.co…"]SCM810[/]="http://www.shure.co…"]SCM810[/] to pick out the loudest channel and mute the rest?

i think it is cement (industrial building)
~18ft (the mic mounted ~10 feet)

someone suggest MXL AC404 USB Conference Microphone
i never use boundary microphone, not sure how wide it could get (10ft from centre, possible?)
any comment?

that shure mixer is out of budget
i have to control the video mixer with multi cam.(very tight budget production)
so it's better to set the recording system and leave it.

You have a huge room and wanted sound in just a small part - a set and leave system is pointless - dodgy rooms mean a dedicated sound op, or even two. You can't get good sound in this kind of room without equipment, experience and a decent bit of luck.

The [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.mxlmics…"]MXL[/]="http://www.mxlmics…"]MXL[/] AC404 USB seem nice in theory with 25' radius and when you read the specs it seems ok... but it is not a discrete high output preamp, so it will pick up a lot of noises.

Paul is right close micing is the only clean solution.
You know how your brain can focus on a sound and isolate a conversation through everything that the ears capture ? Well a mic doesn't do that. It picks up everything in the room equally depending on the mic patern and distance from the capsule. If someone scratch his nose louder then that girl talking in a corner of the room, you won't hear her. If a fan is running, you will hear it through the whole recording unless every thing is way louder..

paulears, post: 415377, member: 47782 wrote: A dance studio that big with 6 surfaces, all parallel to each other. Your only technique that is going to work is close miking - so that's it really. Wanted v unwanted sound is your goal - as much of one and as little of the other. Any distant technique is just not going to work. It's probably got mirrors, which are also amazing reflectors of both sound and visuals, making booms visible if you tried to boom in from above or below

I work a fair bit in dance studios - and close in lavs are the only technique that are going to work. Sound wise, they're horrible rooms. We even record dedicated music tracks that are produced with all the sources dry because reverb on reverb is even more horrible. If you rally have no budget - then a bay sourced cheap condenser labs plugged into iPhones on record may well give you better sound - maybe you could try something like that.

USB recording is also a crazy thing to consider - it's very inflexible, unless you buy a nice USB equipped mixer - and even then, how do you get the audio to the mixer, and where from. Small, cheap all in one audio recorders are a mother possibility.

I think you have to face up to the budget needing to reflect the acoustic problems, or walk away. In a dance studio that size - for decent clarity - then any mic more than a foot away from a mic is going to sound horrible!

Here's what i've done, not good enough ...
[MEDIA=soundcloud]id=https%3A%2F%2Fsoundcloud.com%2Ffranky-ng-1%2Fzoomh1-demo%2Fs-TkDvi;secret_token=s-TkDvi;track_id=152656278
[[url=http://[/URL]="https://soundcloud…"]View: https://soundcloud…]="https://soundcloud…"]View: https://soundcloud…]

that's the reason, i want to improve it with a little $400 ...

sorry didn't mention usb is required for live streaming (no post production for normalize/de-noise)

thanks for everyone, really helpful & I've learned something good.

Actually, my plan B is M-track mixer + Audio Technica AT875, hope it would be improve the sound quality(speech recognition)

I think i should give it up on that little $400 improvement now ...

Your clip shows the problem - we can hear everything, but not isolate the people we need to hear - and the person with the strongest voice, or closest to the mic wins the battle. If you get the mixer and the mic, if they are closer to the person you want to hear, they will be better. If the camera mic is closer, then it will be better. Distance is your enemy, not budget really.

paulears, post: 415386, member: 47782 wrote: Your clip shows the problem - we can hear everything, but not isolate the people we need to hear - and the person with the strongest voice, or closest to the mic wins the battle. If you get the mixer and the mic, if they are closer to the person you want to hear, they will be better. If the camera mic is closer, then it will be better. Distance is your enemy, not budget really.

after watching this video:

=y2m8klTWK1s;t=73
[[url=http://[/URL]="

T=73[/]

i thought the result could be improved by pointing toward the centre of the conversation with shotgun mic. Seems the narrow directioning of shotgun mic can't help in this situation ...

Well, it actually does - but remember that a shotgun mic isn't like a zoom lens. If you narrow the field, it's a bit like a torch beam. The torch will light up your subject, but it also lights up the wall behind. In this case, acoustically the wall being hard is a reflector, so anything bouncing off the wall towards the camera is 'illuminated'. You are then back to the wanted/unwanted sound problem again. The additional problem is that directional mics need careful aiming and this needs the person who is doing it to have headphones so they can hear what the mic hears, so they can optimise the aiming. Outside, shotguns appear to work over a greater distance - but of course because of the distance, anything you don't want to hear, even if it is in the shotguns 'torch beam' is further away, and because of the inverse square law, much quieter as a ratio of wanted to unwanted. The practical upshot is that in a room like yours, shotguns would need to be very close to the subjects 3 or 4 feet probably being the maximum.

thanks paul.

I have to take some times to digest your advise.

Also, most shotguns use interference tubes to cancel sounds arriving at the sides of the mic, to create greater directionality. In a room like you are talking about, there are so many reflections off all the surfaces that the result with most shotguns will be a boomy mess. Hypercardioid mics like the Schoeps CMC641, AKG CK393, or even Oktava MK-012 with the hypercardioid capsule are better suited to highly reflective indoor venues. Even they will have to be within a foot of the people speaking, though, to get good sound. You would also need an audio operator using the mic on a boom pole to keep the mic placed properly as people move. As was mentioned before, close-miking is your only hope off getting decent sound in a dance studio like that. Good luck!

Question on Focusrite Forte or Apogee Duet:

1) field recording
[="http://en.audiofanzine.com/zoom/series-h1/user_reviews/"]my Zoom H1[/]="http://en.audiofanz…"]my Zoom H1[/] has no XLR input, i would like to connect the XLR microphone with Forte and then output to H1
the XLR requires phantom power:
1A 5V battery pack <-> Forte(XLR mic connected) <-> [[url=http://="http://en.audiofanz…"]Zoom H1[/]="http://en.audiofanz…"]Zoom H1[/]

Q: Can a 13000mAh battery pack (used to charge iphone) @ 1A 5V to support the Forte for the 48v phantom power?

I'm not sure I understand what you are wanting to do here. Is the idea to use the Focusrite Forte as a pre-amp and phantom power supply for a condenser microphone and then somehow record the amplified signal on the Zoom H1? And you want to do this using battery power at 5V without having a computer connected?

If so, the Forte is not the best device for that purpose, as you need to set up its configuration via USB using a computer in order to monitor the microphone inputs via the headphone output. You would be better off (both financially and figuratively) using something like the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://akarchive.di…"]original Digidesign MBox[/]="http://akarchive.di…"]original Digidesign MBox[/]. Although long since discontinued, the MBox is easily available second-hand. It has pretty good Focusrite pre-amps (thus maintaining your Focusrite connection), as well as 48V phantom power for microphones, all powered from the 5V USB input connector. Although it can be set up for direct monitoring simply by front-panel knobs, it would be better in this case to take the sends from the insert jacks, as these are unbalanced and would be more suitable than the balanced high-level main outputs for driving the H1's 1/8" jack input.

I don't know which 13Ah USB battery unit you were thinking of, but if it would power the Forte, it would power the original MBox.

Yes.
Forte has it's own LED monitor and headphone out

What i already have:
Zoom H1
$500

What i want:
a) indoor: 2-channel usb mixer - get audio from shotgun to macbook live stream (so i think forte is nice)
b) outfield: 2-channel mixer - get audio from 2 wireless lavalier mics to Zoom H1

What my choice:
A) sell Zoom H1 and buy Zoom H4n (but indoor performance & usage not so good)
B) buy Forte to connect everything (48v problem)

48v problem:
Normally, Forte has to connect the macbook by USB (data transfer) and extra 5V dc power for phantom power microphone
Since i can't get socket on field usually
I was thinking if the Forte can be powered normally by connect both 5V and USB to a battery pack (the battery pack is 13Ah, have 2 output ports: 1A & 1.5A)
so i can bring them everywhere

I have ask Focusrite, but they didn't answer it ...

There's no reason you can't run the forte from any 5V power supply - battery or mains power if you want to use it to provide phantom. How will you get the forte audio to the Zoom? The headphone socket isn't sonically the best way?

Forte has 4 output

Forte Zoom H1

Is that work?

You "have ask Focusrite but they didn't answer it... "that's because, there is no answer. There are folks that do real actual audio engineering. That's why we are real actual audio engineers. We don't muck around when we have to get decent audio. It's not a set and forget process. It would be kind of like going to the bathroom and thinking that your ass should wipe itself. It doesn't. It won't. It can't. It's just an ass. Don't be one yourself.

The bottom line is, if you want good speech recordings? You put a microphone near your respective respondents. You indicate to them that if they have anything to say, they must get up and walk over to the microphone. Otherwise they should shut up.

If this is a free for all? Then you already have what you only can get. Which is essentially, nothing.

You can waste your time and your money swapping out and purchasing different pieces of equipment. That's what the amateur clueless people do. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is capable of getting what you want without the intervention of an actual engineer, doing it. Again, it's kind of like your appendix taking out itself. Ain't going to happen. You'll die in the attempt. So will your audio.

Now you could put a microphone on a boom pole. You could hold it over your head. You can position it continuously, in front of people's faces who are muttering whatever they are going to mutter. And you might pick them up slightly better. But only slightly and only if you're directly over their head. Not a distance away across a room. That simply records what we call in the movie making business, " room tone ". Which actually means an incomprehensible background noise din, of ambient incomprehensible noise. Great when you need that for a film background track to denote a background noise din. Certainly amateur hour if you expect to understand anything that is being said. Or like other Asian audio engineers, you can turn up your record volume until the meter sticks to the right. And doesn't move. That will provide the best audio. Nobody will be able to understand it through the distortion but it will be louder.

It doesn't matter what microphone ya purchase. It doesn't matter what recorder you have. It doesn't matter whether you were born with a brain or not. Obviously not. Looking at pretty Magazine ads & pretty equipment, is pretty enticing. It's also pretty stupid, thinking you can get pretty sound, without learning something pretty important first. Which is its pretty stupid thinking that "audio engineers" itself. Not understanding English well, the term "audio engineers", out of context to the English language which, could be confusing? Audio doesn't engineer. We do. We engineer audio. You have to engineer audio too, also, as well, ipso facto. It doesn't engineer itself. Which is why God created Audio Engineers, like us. I could be wrong about that because I'm an atheist? But I saw an advertisement in a religious magazine and figured I could get one of those gods to do the audio for me? Or maybe get a different God than the previous recording? Since it was god-awful? Good God... what kind of God is that? One that doesn't give a good God Damn. Although God might provide a Hoover Dam or a Boulder Dam or perhaps a Beaver Damn? When they break a tooth?

We don't teach what you want to do on this planet because it doesn't work. It's like thinking you're Jethro Bodine and want to be a brain surgeon tomorrow. Or that you are the invisible man, able to walk into a ladies dressing room, with just a black plastic garbage bag over your head, thinking the ladies won't notice you. Especially when you fall onto the floor and are suffering from asphyxia. And because you can't get your hands on their asphyxia? I know how tough it can be when you have an asphyxia.

Here let me give you my asphyxia.
Mx. Remy Ann David

thx Remy.
you are right. I understand that.

My choice with the very limited budget:
A) I turn down the opportunity
B) Push to the limit & try hard to do whatever i can

Sorry to let you feel bad that people like me to do stupid things.
I hope i can get more budget to improve everything next year, like last year with a H1 to this year $1000 more.

It's good that you have supplied the additional information.

The Forte will work well for your situation (a). You can use the Macbook to set up and control the Forte.

If you choose the lav mic wireless systems correctly, you don't need any additional interface, pre-amp or mixer for situation (b). All you need is an insert lead to split the H1's 1/8" stereo jack socket out to two mono 1/8" jack plugs which you plug into the lav mic receivers. Since this is away from mains power, I assume the receivers are the battery-powered types designed for use with home movie cameras. Running like this, you don't need the 13Ah battery pack.