Nobody? I'd be really interested to learn how you can replace a real recording of a snare drum with ghost notes and fills with a sample. The other day I saw a presentation from Steven Slate, but he was obviously using a snare track that was recorded without any bleed from other parts of the drumkit. I think this is a bit of a cheat, because this is just not real life (except if you are using V-Drums).

Hey, nothing is cheating in the creative world, even loops put together to make a musical arrangement takes a talent. Each to his own. However, I do love my more raw 70 sound.

I've never used one but there are a few plugin out there. The new SPL

DrumXchanger uses the Transient Designer technology for drum hit recognition rather than sound creation. Hence, all drum hits, including the faintest ghost notes, are faithfully recognized regardless of their dynamic level.

The samples can be mixed with the original sound and there is also a ducking function available, which only reduces the level of the original drum hit itself without affecting the ambience around it.

see: http://recording.org/content/399-spl-drumxchanger.html

There are others.

In the 80's we used an MPC 60 and triggered the drum samples with mics on a kit. You can use anything with a pulse, even your voice really to trigger another sound. All this started 40 years ago. It just more fun now.

Sounds pretty interesting, this new SPL plugin. However, the problem with drum replacing is not that the ghost notes are not recognized with other software, but that the bleed from other mics (kick drum) is higher in level than the ghost notes and will therefore falsly trigger samples. I am afraid SPL DrumXchanger will not solve this issue.

In your situation nothing is completely automatic. One can frequently heavily gate a drum. Then the output of the gated drum can be fed into something such as an Alesis H4 or H5 for their triggered drum samples. This can work out nicely but is rarely successful sounding with a drum roll. If you are actually recording the drums? Another suggestion would be to go to Radio Shaft and purchase a half dozen piezoelectric " buzzers". Break them out of their plastic packages, connect a wire to a 1/4 inch connector and tape them to the drumhead. These are poor man's triggers that can now be used with various drum machines such as the H 4 or 5 and others. Of course commercial triggers are also available but will cost you much more $$. This is the least expensive way for experimenting and getting good results. You can also use them for acoustic guitar pickups. Cram one under the bridge of acoustic guitar and you have a poor man's Barcus Berry pickup. They really work. Honest I've used them, made them.

I enjoy a little pickup
Mx. Remy Ann David

Once you are in MIDI, you can do anything.

How do the "real" drum trigger mics work anyway? Are they real microphones that record sound which is later converted to midi or do they somehow register movements of the drumhead?

As far as drum replacement is concerned I guess there's just certain limits to what you can do. Ghost notes and drum rolls are probably beyond that limit, unless you want to spend hours editing the snare track.

Well, when using BFD, drum rolls have never been a problem....!!!! Maybe you have to work on it a little bit but i don't remember spending hours on those....

I've contacted SPL for you, hopefully they are able to shed some insight on that product.

Its been a while since I looked at this, but you can set velocities and sensitivities for anything in these triggers. Sometimes you need to break down certain parts of the track ( bars etc) to clean them up. Its editing and some things are easier than others. IMO, drums are something that can have a basic feel throughout the song so you can get the bed track pretty solid without too much editing. Once the bed track is done, you can fix the feel, use external sources like a drummer, drum machine, "" to add even more feel, the shots, rolls, whatever. The poorer the musicians or track, the more editing is required. Digital audio, MIDI and plugins like DrumXchanger make almost anything you can imagine, become a reality through editing.

Its all so exciting.

ProTools Sound Replacer software is ridiculously easy to use. You can apply separate samples to loud, medium, and soft hits visually.

The triggers can be anything from cheap piezo transducers to good studio mics. I'm a lot better at tapping my fingers than swinging drumsticks, so I've laid down some decent kick / snare tracks just tapping right on the windscreens of a couple SM58's.

If you're working in post, why don't you just roll the bottom end off the snare mic(s) until the kick disappears?
Wouldn't this render your threshold problem a non-issue?
A trigger is a trigger, whatever it actually sounds like? So you just need enough signal, right?

Otherwise, can't comment directly on the software, as I don't use it.

gunsofbrixton, post: 345407 wrote: Sounds pretty interesting, this new SPL plugin. However, the problem with drum replacing is not that the ghost notes are not recognized with other software, but that the bleed from other mics (kick drum) is higher in level than the ghost notes and will therefore falsly trigger samples. I am afraid SPL DrumXchanger will not solve this issue.

Hey, this is Dirk from SPL.

We have implemented four things to make triggering difficult drum tracks more reliable: the "dual threshold", which lets you determine a level AND the transient peaks of signals, and BOTH tresholds have to be reached to actually "fire" a sample off. Then we have alos added Hi-Pass and Lo-Pass filters into the sidechain, so you can filter unwanted noise away... plus a ducking limiter that let´s you KEEP some of the original ghost notes sounds and only replace the loud snare hits, which leads to a much more natural result overall.
Last not least you will be able to switch the Transient Designer of the "original" signal into the sidechain with the final release version.

Cheers, Dirk.

Thanks, Dirk, I am starting to get REALLY interested ;) Definitely gonna check this tool out!

soapfloats: You have a point there. Maybe I should experiment more with EQ on the track i use for triggering. However, if I don't want to filter away the fundamental frequencies of the snare (which is where most of its energy is) i will not be able to set a HP filter higher than at 100 Hz or so. Not sure if this will help that much. Will try.

gunsofbrixton, post: 345686 wrote: Thanks, Dirk, I am starting to get REALLY interested ;) Definitely gonna check this tool out!

soapfloats: You have a point there. Maybe I should experiment more with EQ on the track i use for triggering. However, if I don't want to filter away the fundamental frequencies of the snare (which is where most of its energy is) i will not be able to set a HP filter higher than at 100 Hz or so. Not sure if this will help that much. Will try.

You see, this is where the DXC comes in... it has built-in filters in the sidechain, so you can get rid of crosstalk for the trigger chain without effecting the audio channel of the original sound! Then you can just blend original snare (for example) and sample together...
Cheers, Dirk.
Info and demo: [url=http://www.spl.info Sound Performance Lab[/url]

Hello everyone,

We are pleased to announce that you can now demo the new Slate Digital Advanced DRUM REPLACEMENT plugin called TRIGGER!

Check out the demo by going to [="http://www.slatedigital.com"]Slate Digital[/]="http://www.slatedig…"]Slate Digital[/] and visiting the demo section to download TRIGGER's trial demo. You'll need an iLok to use TRIGGER!

TRIGGER is the next generation drum replacement VST/RTAS/AU plugin. TRIGGER has a phase accurate multi layered triggering engine. This means that in one instance of the plugin, you can seamlessly trigger multiple samples simultaneously such as a close mic sample, stereo overhead sample, and a stereo room mic samples. Or, mix many direct mic samples to develop your own custom unique sounds. This multi channel triggering functionality allows the user to recreate the sound of natural drums with real multitracked samples. Each sample layer has parameters for customization such as velocity and dynamic control, attack, sustain, release and independent levels. Other features include 2 detection modes, MIDI in/out, automation of detecting parameters, up to 127 different articulations per instrument, up to 127 velocity layers per instrument and up to 127 alternation hits per velocity layer, and a unique "Leakage Suppression" function.

You can see the introduction video on slatedigital.com or on youtube: [[url=http://="http://www.youtube…"]YouTube - SLATE DIGITAL TRIGGER[/]="http://www.youtube…"]YouTube - SLATE DIGITAL TRIGGER[/]

If you have any questions, post them here. Also if you have any problems with triggering setup, you can send me your tracking and I'll check it and send you back TRIGGER screeshot with optimal settings for triggering your track.

Hey, welcome to RO. Good youtube intro. You should give me a copy of this for the nice promotion injection here! I'll let this pass because it is definitely related to the OP, so welcome. Good eye SDT!

This is turning into a pretty interesting thread. My mind is going in all sorts of direction. I see the world of Mastering secrets entering a new twist with this sort of product.
M/S sort of thing going on?
An Aural Exciters maybe happening?

Could something like this evolve into separating other instruments/ vocals and so on?

audiokid, post: 345752 wrote: Hey, welcome to RO. Good youtube intro. You should give me a copy of this for the nice promotion injection here! I'll let this pass because it is definitely related to the OP, so welcome. Good eye SDT!

Hi audiokid! Thanks! We here to make people happier!

Specifically made triggers for drums are not generally microphones. They are more akin to piezoelectric buzzers than they are to microphones. A poor man's acoustic guitar pickup. More sensitive to physical vibration than air vibration, which it is quite insensitive to. When trying to replace already pre-recorded drum tracks, it has to use the track recorded with a microphone. Not all drum replacers have been created equally. Most of the latest ones in software rely on the mic as opposed to specific drum triggers. Of course triggers are generally much cheaper than even a bad microphone. So you have to ask yourself, is your desire to always use somebody else's drum sound? If so, don't waste your budget on drum microphones. You can still record piezoelectric pickups that you taped to your drum heads. These wouldn't suffer from any leakage from the other drums, bass guitar, etc.. But if you like your drums and want them to sound good, use SM57's, MD 421's, D6, etc.. Radio Shaft is a good source for a whole set of drum triggers that will cost you less than $20 for the entire set. As opposed to commercially made drum triggers that cost $20 each. 57's are still $100 each. 421's almost cost that much.

Buzzers work
Mx. Remy Ann David

dvdhawk, post: 345497 wrote: The triggers can be anything from cheap piezo transducers to good studio mics. I'm a lot better at tapping my fingers than swinging drumsticks, so I've laid down some decent kick / snare tracks just tapping right on the windscreens of a couple SM58's.

Haha, classic :P I'll have to try it out :P

ok
this is a sore subject for me and i want everyone to know NOW, that i hate drum replacements. so in the following statement i EXPECT a barrage of complaints. so i take the hits, lick my wounds but im a better man for my opinion.
with that said,.. here we go.
dude, if the drummer is playing ghost notes its for a reason, HE WANTS THEM THERE, putting a replacement on the snare will SUCK the life out of the drummers playing and the beautiful ghost notes he was doing to show a listener what a great drummer he is because his cool ass ghost notes are really sweet and imaginative at the same time. a sample will just screw up the dynamics of his playing, (you know about dynamics right, ??) so that each and every gracefull ghost note will be as loud as every hit he makes!!
why would you want to replace the snare, because the kick drum is bleeding into the snare mic?? how the **** does that happen, oh yeah your a novice, well then, dude, instead of trying to fix your mistake and your inability to place a microphone the proper way to reject the rest of the kit to the point where your mix will benefit, TRY WORKING ON THAT INSTEAD OF ****ING THE DRUMMER OUT OF A GREAT PERFORMANCE WITH A ****ING SAMPLE, your an engineer right, or you want to be an engineer, then work on making your signal chain the best that it can be from the snare to the recorder and everything in between. thats what an engineer does when recording music, you NEED to learn those techniques FIRST before reaching for the "I ****ed Up" plugin.
RECORDING IS AN ART, DO YOU WANT TO PAINT BY NUMBERS OR PAINT A MASTERPIECE.
good F'n luck in your career

planet10, post: 346561 wrote: you NEED to learn those techniques FIRST before reaching for the "I ****ed Up" plugin.

Dammit, you owe me a new monitor. I just sprayed coffee all over mine. :D

I am, with caution and fewer strong words, going to agree on the essence of this statement. Though it must be recognized that many renowned engineers have used this technique to great affect. The problem, as planet10 so eloquently put it, is that if used incorrectly or innapropriately the sample can destroy the dynamics and feel that the drummer was going for.

I will admit to using the technique myself, and what I found worked very well was to have the samples on a separate track and blend them with the original rather than replacing them all together.

We live in a world filled with shades of gray, and as long as a result sounds good and is approved by the artist and the listening public the engineer has done a good job, regardless of the method. I find condemning someones carreer based on an oppinion to be a tad harsh. A dip into the murky depths from whence JP22 came.

yeah i can be harsh sometimes, but im my opinion and heart, if you call yourself and engineer and the over abused "Producer" word, then you HAVE TO KNOW ABOUT RECORDING!!!
i am a user of Drumagog, and have had great success with its ability to replace a drum sound. its only used in extreme cases, or if snare was not quite in pitch with the song, i will create a sample of that snare put it in Drumagog and change the pitch to the song.
too many "engineers and producers" out there wont take the time to place a mic in the proper spot or use the proper microphone to make the job of mixing easier for them. you cant over look the signal chain of all your instruments before you hit the record button. ive had sessions where the engineer would just place mics with the intention of sampling them only to bring them to me for mix and i use the mic'd tracks instead with a "WOW the drums sound GREAT"!! from the engineer. HE NEVER TOOK THE TIME TO SEE IF HIS MIC'D DRUMS WERE EVEN GOOD ENOUGH. thats our future of the music business?? GOD help us

p10: It is worth noting that, to claim the title "Executive Producer", all one has to do is open one's wallet. *g*

Scott
YOU are CORRECT SIR!!

Guys,
I haven't logged in for a while, so haven't been able to reply to the gentleman insulting me, which I will do now.
Planet10, your post is not very helpful, to say the least, and you are an arrogant prick, to say the least.

I was asking a general question about drum replacing. I know that drum replacing / triggering is widely used in commercial pop / rock music and was asking myself how those results are achieved. I was asking myself: Would it even be possible to replace a snare recording that contains ghost notes, rolls or flams and spill from other mics with a sample? Or would you rather record your tracks with trigger mics if you know from the start that you will use a sampled snare sound?

I think these questions are nothing to be ashamed of and I got some interesting answers. It's just a shame that some of you guys always think you are the Jesus of sound engineering and you need to bitch at newbies asking questions you don't like.

yeah im a prick sometimes and oh well. sorry to offend you. im certainly not the Jesus of engineering.
i practice this art form everyday and make the effort to become better at it in the years to come because my clients career is at stake.
to go deeper into your question, yes sampling is done more now a days. the use of triggers and the use of mics to get the transient so as to properly trigger the sample. in my opinion triggers are a waste of money. a mic placed properly to capture the pure transient is all you need to do. whether using drumagog or a drum machine it doesnt matter, the sounds are what matters, drumagog is easier. multiple samples are just someones inability to find the right sound thru the sample, compressor and eq chain. one sample should be enough to get the job done. to your snare question, ghost notes will not be properly portrayed in the mix, they sound different and thats what is great about them. i HIGHLY recommend NOT sampling a ghost noted snare.
samples on drums only comes down to this how is the drum being played and how will the sample work in relation to the recorded sound and the entire song.... you have to be very careful

Hey...that's different. Thanks. Now I got a red card for using the p word. Damn!

SPL just sent me this link on the DrumXchanger.

http://www.spl.info

I start with a good drum mic setup and good sounding drums.

Then at the end of each recording I sample some hits of the snare, toms, kicks, and cymbals. Sometimes at different dynamic levels. I find that using samples that are not from the same session / mic setup tend to mask frequencies a bit more and they don't cut through as well. A lot of that is caused by phasing issues.

In drumagog you can trigger with a frequency, so for example using a parametric 200 hz band as your trigger would usually capture the snare at all dynamics, over any bleed.